A McConchie just joined the M222 project with 111 markers. That would seem to be another Scottish surname. His two closest matches at 37 markers are: Mr. Edwin Shazell 2gd Lawrence Michael Dill 2gd Same closest two matches at 67 markers. John

> > The O'Hanlon's - Ui Anluain - kings of Oriel, pushed before them the Ui > Echadh under their kings, the Ui Ruadachain. The last mention of an Ui > Ruadachain king of the Ui Echadh is in 1231 and the last mention of them at > all, is in 1354 when Auly O'Rogan appealed to the king of England to ask the > Sheriff of Louth to let Auly and his following (sequela) live among the > Englishmen in Louth. > >From K. Sims, Medieval Armagh: The Kingdom of Oirthir (Orior) and its Rulers The Ui Annluain (O'Hanlons): "The most prominent local chiefs in the eleventh and twelfth centuries were the Ó Ruadacáin (O'Rogan) rulers of Ui Echach Airgiall, whose territory included Toaghy, just south of Armagh city, and probably also two Fews baronies, extending down to the southwestern borders of the modern county. Ruadri Ó Ruadacáin (d. 1099) and Murchad Ó Ruadacáin (d. 1159/60) are both called by the Annals of Ulster ri Airther; that is, king of the whole territory of Airthir, or perhaps merely of the most powerful community within it, in the same way that the term Airgialla tended to be applied particularly to the leading sub-kingdom within the Airgialla group as a whole, the men of Fernmag (Monaghan-Louth area). "However, the Ó Ruadacáin kings were not destined to maintain their position. In 1172, a Ceneal nEógain sub-chieftain, Mael Muire Murchada (MacMurphy) is called 'king of the Ui Echach', and though an Ó Ruadacáin is once more given this titkle in 1179, in 1181 another Mac Murchada as 'royal chief of the Airthir and Tricha Cét (barony of Trough, Co. Monaghan.)." According to the book of Ballymote the: O'Ruadacain and O'Muireagain are members of Muinter Duibh Rois of Ui Cremtainn of Airgialla i.e. “Muindter Duibh Rois .i. H. Ruadhacan & H. Caeman & H. Feidegan & H. Mairicain & H. Dunacan.” I find the families of Muinter Duibh Rois to be likely: H. Caeman: kings of Magh Leamhna in Clogher area of Tyrone bordering Monaghan. Amongst members of Cenel Fiachach mac Niall. (Also a name of a powerful family in west Fermangh.) H. Feidegan: originates from the Clones area in Monaghan; where Tiredigan and Ballyviddegan are on both sides of Clones. Later moved to south Monaghan and later by 1659 'census' to the barony of Ardee in Louth (MIF) H. Duncan: O’Hart gives Donnegan and they could well be the sometime Lords of Fernmagh (barony of Farney) in the south of county Monaghan. H. Ruadhacan: O’Hart gives Rogan and this are powerful family ruling East Airgialla (county Armagh) in the eleventh and twelfth centuries and as kings of the Ui Echach of Armagh and Oriors. I cannot find a location for a O'Muireagain kingdom, other than regilious one St Malachy who was most likely a O'Morgain of Armagh, the O'Morgan land is just out the city limits. The MacMurphy (of Clann Birn) kingdom was was Trough within the lands that had been held by Muinter Duibh Rois. There is 15th (1452 and 1453) century church correspondance with Rome concerning Cornelius Macmurchayd alias OMuirigan (MacMurphy alias O'Morgan) and Donald O'Murghan in regard to the vicarages of Aghaloo and Donaghmore. The nearby local Tyrone vicarages was the Mag Murchadha of Clann Birn....

In a message dated 6/30/2011 3:32:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Then, out of the blue, a 37/37 match with a Shanks. Strange. Sandy MacLysaght has a list of names mostly found in Ulster which he considers English or Scottish. For what it's worth he includes Shanks among them as E and S (English and Scottish). John

In a message dated 6/30/2011 3:28:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pabloburns@comcast.net writes: "Clan Birn, descended from Bern, son of Ruadrí, son of Murchad, a quo Muinter Birn, in the line of Cenél Eóghain, according to the genealogies in Rawlinson B502. In addition Rawlinson points to a son of Bern named Anféid, a quo Tellach n-Anfida, who was possibly the namesake for Tellach Ainbhith. According to O'Dugan (Topographical Poems), the MacRuaidhris were among those over Teallach Ainbhith and over Muintir-Birn. O'Hart (Pedigrees) cites the name MacRuaidhri as MacRory or MacRogers, over the same territories, districts which he places in the baronies of Dungannon and Strabane, county Tyrone. Woulfe (Irish Names) agrees and also cites the family of MacRuaidhri as erenaghs of Ballynascreen, in County Derry. O'Hart goes on to cite, under the county Armagh, Muintir Birn, some of whose descendants anglicized their name Bruen, was a district in the south of the barony of Dungannon, adjoining the territory of Trough in county Monaghan. I have no idea of the validity of O'Hart's statement, whether he made that part up (about the Bruen surname) or took it from an existing source. He did occasionally throw in deductions of his own when working with the Linea Antiqua. Topographical Poems The MacDuinnchuains,_81_ (file:///C:/New%20O%20Clery%20Web%20Site/main6.htm#81) MacRuaidhris_82_ (file:///C:/New%20O%20Clery%20Web%20Site/main6.htm#82) gentle, Over Teallach Ainbhith_83_ (file:///C:/New%20O%20Clery%20Web%20Site/main6.htm#83) the formidable, They are not heard to be dry at their house, Are over the victorious Muinter Birn;_84_ (file:///C:/New%20O%20Clery%20Web%20Site/main6.htm#84) O'Donovan's notes: 81. MacDunnchuain, unknown at present. 82. MacRuaidhri, now anglicised MacRory, and sometimes translated Rogers, by which the origin of the race is disguised. A branch of this family became herenachs of the parish of Ballynascreen, in the barony of Loughinsholin, county of Londonderry, in the old church of which there is a curious monument to the family, with an epitaph and armorial bearings. 83. Teallach Ainbhith. - Exact situation not yet determined. 84. Muinter-Birn.-This is still the name of a district in the county of Tyrone, adjoining the barony of Trough, in the county of Monaghan, and the name is preserved in that of a Presbyterian parish. See annals of Four Masters, A.D. 1172, note o. I checked the Griffith's Valuations for the surname McRory, thinking I would find none - yet there are a lot, mostly in Tyrone, L'Derry and adjacent counties. The name Rogers appears almost everywhere in Ireland, including a lot in Tryone. Only a few McRory variants appear in Yearch. FFFRJ McCreary Groomsport, 8ETX7 McRory Donegal, Ireland MPQMQ McGrory Ireland NTFY2 McRorie Antrim, Ireland Only one of these is M222 (MPQMQ McGrory). MacLysaght states McGrory is a variant of McRory. The Ysearch entry states Donegal is the place of origin according to family tradition. Not much to go on though. John

In a message dated 6/30/2011 3:28:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pabloburns@comcast.net writes: Of special interest to me is O'Hart's statement that some descendants anglicized their name to Bruen. I have eight M222 Byrne who are not close to my Donegal or Sligo M222s. Their roots are Monaghan, and I am wondering if they are remnants of that Muinter Birn/Cenel Eoghain group that you mentioned. Do the O Cathains have any distinctive markers, such as the 391=10 that separates this Monaghan Byrne group from my other M222s? Barra McCain's O Cathain group has just three modal identifiers in the first 37 markers. Sandy posted these a few days ago DYS439=13 DYS570=18 DYS710=34 DYS715=23 DYS513=14 DYS643=11 : To this I would add: 389ii=-30 John

Gerry, Thanks for the statistics. I do have a Byrne cluster in Louth (see Lineage IV at www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/byrne/results) that number eight men tested. They are in two families but all are related. Two have tested L21 but nothing further. They are not M222 and I cannot figure out what they are. The nearest they seem to come to other surnames is 37/12. Oral and written histories connected them to the O'Byrne Clan of Leinster, allegedly a group sthat Feagh MacHugh O'Byrne sent north to aid the O'Neill, but DNA shows no connection. As for M222, and the Muintir Birn, I really must get up into Armagh where the records show numerous Byrne families, and I have no idea who or what they are. We have very few Ulster Byrne tested. One from Down is not close to any other project member, our one and only from Armagh is Airghialla-2, a man who traces to Co. Antrim turned out to be Sept O'Beirne of Roscommon, etc. Ain't it fun. Paul

In a message dated 6/30/2011 1:22:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: As you know, this follows the Irish naming custom and demonstrates that "Cu/ Muighe" is a single unit and the inherited part of the name. So, this Cu/ Muighe 'of the Foreigners' either followed some of their customs or was fostered among them. Fosterage is a possibility. I didn't think of that. The Normans in Ulster were known for their divide and conquer tactics, meddling in clan affairs, even at times annointing chieftains. I checked in the annals and there is no mention of a Cu maighe na nGall close to the time of the Battle of Down. Not until 1375 and that is probably a different Cu Maighe. This later Cu Maighe is well known because there's some kind of tomb bearing his name. John

Here is an article from Irish Sword 1962 that I found in my Muintir Birn file. It mentions many of the names you guys are discussing: O DOMHNAILL’S CLAIM FOR MILITARY SERVICE By Colm O Lochainn In a list of the contents of MS. Rawlinson B 514* (from which source Fr. O’Kelleher edited Maghnus O Domhnaill’s “Life of Colum Cille”) the late E. C. Quiggin** printed a short passage in prose on “Military service due to O Domhnaill” taken, it is claimed, from the “old book of O Seingin of Ard Carne.”*** I here give my English translation with some notes on the peoples and territories mentioned. The extravagant claims made for O Domhnaill, Lord of Tir Cenaill, by the family chronicles were productive of bad blood and enmity between the overlords of the various northern kingdoms, and were prejudicial to any hopes of union within Ulster and between Ulster and Connacht. To claims such as these we may trace much of the jealousy, ill-will and bloodshed that marked Ulster history in the time of Seana an Diomais and later. “The standing claim for military service of O’Donnell on the province of Ulster is as follows:- “The equivalent of 40 men on Tir Chonaill; 60 on Clannaboy; 55 ½ on O Cathain; 60 on Cinel Moain; 40 per quarter year on O Floind; 40 on Mac Gilla Muire; 60 on Ui Eachach; 40 on the Oirtheara; the same amount on the Oaghialla; 40 on Fir Monach; 40 on the Fiachrach of Ardstraw;40 on Mac Cathmail; 12 on MagCana; 32 on Muuintir Birn; 6 of O Caragdin (?)e —An excerpt from the old book of O Seingin of Ardcarne.” The “old book of O Seingin” is not known to have survived. For the story of the chroniclers O Seingin and O Cleirigh see Father Paul Walsh “The O Cleirigh Family of Tin Connail,” p.2. The late Professor Eoin Mac Neil told me that the surname O Seingin has been anglicized “Skeffington,” though is S. Tyrone O Sgineadar is the surname anglicized “Skeffington.” The story says that the son of the last chronicler of the name died in 1382, but Fr. Walsh suggests 1342. The claim that Clannaboy, the powerful branch of the O’Neils in south Antrim and Down from Loch Neagh to the sea, owed military service to O Domhnaill is most extravagant. Equally so is the claim upon O Cathain, whose territory was the barony of Keenaght in County Derry. Cinel Moain, the O Gormleys and their kin, originally occupied the barony of Raphoe in Donegal, but were driven out of the Foyle between Derry and Strabane; a charter of the Cinel Moain, Inishowen and Fir Monach was given by O Neill to O Domhnaill in 1514. In the “Annals of Ulster” 1505 at the obit of Aodh Ruadh son of Niall Garbh, the son of Toirrdelbach an Fhiona the following statement is made: “It was he that preserved lordship from the mountain down into Connacht for Cenel Conaill and the rent of Inis Eoghan and the service of Cenel Modhain from the O Neills.” O Floind (O’Lynn) was chieftain of Ui Tuirtre, originally situated near the mouth of the Bann but afterwards in Dal Riada and N.E. A! ntrim—certainly not O Domhnaill country. Mac Gilla Muire (Gilmore, Kilmer, Kilmurray etc.) was a dependent of O Neill of Clannaboy. Ui Echach was probably that branch of the Oirghialla situated in what, roughly, is the present barony of Armagh; Oirtheara was the baronies of Oneilland E. and W. and Orior; Oirghialla was the MacMahon country around Monaghan—all outside O Domhnaillls orbit. Fir Monach is the present County Fermanagh, of which O Duibhdara, and later Maguire, was the ruling family, with Enniskillen as their chief seat. Mac Cathmaoil, variously anglicized Caghwell, Campbell, Cantwell, McCall etc., was chieftain of the Cinel Fhearadhaigh which is now the barony of Clogher, County Tyrnone. The MagCana (McCanns) were seated in County Armagh, and Muintir Birn were in the southern part of the barony of Dungannon, County Tyrone, while O Caragain occupied a district represented roughly by the parish of Killyman, County Tyrone. * This manuscript cannot be older than 1532 when Manus O Domhnaill wrote the “Life.” ** In “Prelegemene to the Study of the Later Irish Bards,” British Academy, p. 48. *** Ard Carne, 4 miles east of Boyle, Co. Roscommon was one of the five Connacht sees created at the synod of Rath Breasail A.D. 1111. In medieval times there were houses of Augustinians, Franciscans, and Benedictines there. (Source: Irish Sword, 1962.)

I came across a chapter of a book " Colonisation and conquest in medieval Ireland: the English in Louth" which tells how the O'Rogan's moved into Louth from Oriel. The PDF is locked, so I can't copy 'n paste, but here is a summary. The O'Hanlon's - Ui Anluain - kings of Oriel, pushed before them the Ui Echadh under their kings, the Ui Ruadachain. The last mention of an Ui Ruadachain king of the Ui Echadh is in 1231 and the last mention of them at all, is in 1354 when Auly O'Rogan appealed to the king of England to ask the Sheriff of Louth to let Auly and his following (sequela) live among the Englishmen in Louth. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:50 AM To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Muinter Birn Are the any M222+ Bryne from Southeast Ulster? I have always wondered if the O'Morgan (O'Murigan) found in the Barony of Farrad were transplants from northern Oriel - >From 1835-6 - "Letters Containing Information Relative to the Antiquities of the County of Louth" from the Ordance Survey by O'Donovan and others, concerning the parish of Carrickbagot in the barony of Ferrad" "The principal family names in the Parish are:- 1st Markeys Na Marcaigh 2nd Rogans Na Ruagain Seun a Ruagan sing. An Ruagain John Rogan. 3rd Branagans Na Branagain Bearndigh Branagan An Branagain Bernard Branagan. 4th Mc Guires Cloinn Mhi'Guire these before. 5th the Miles' Clann Mhllidh Peadar a Milidh Peter Miles. 6th Moragans Na Muireagain Seaumas a Muireagan . sing. An Muireagain James Moragan" The list seems to contain a number of surnames common to County Armagh, i.e. Markey, Rorgan, Branagan and Moragan (i.e. Morgan). (The Maguires could be from either Meath or Fermanagh.) > From: gerry@ringofgullion.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:26:34 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Muinter Birn > > The Census of 1659 for Louth, lists Birne as the most common Irish Name in > the Barony of Louth. > > It lists Byrne as the most common Irish name in the Barony of Ardee. > > It lists Birne as found in the Barony of Dundalk, but not common. > > It lists Birne as found in the Barony of Farrad, but not common. > > Both Louth and Ardee border Monaghan, but Dundalk and Farrad don't. > > Gerry Hoy > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 4:27 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Muinter Birn > > > Of special interest to me is O'Hart's statement that some descendants > anglicized their name to Bruen. I have eight M222 Byrne who are not close to > my Donegal or Sligo M222s. Their roots are Monaghan, and I am wondering if > they are remnants of that Muinter Birn/Cenel Eoghain group that you > mentioned. Do the O Cathains have any distinctive markers, such as the > 391=10 that separates this Monaghan Byrne group from my other M222s? > Paul > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I user to live in South Armagh and Burns would be a common spelling there. My reading has suggested that the "Ui Echach" you mention below, are indeed from Oirghialla or Armagh. I just mention this because of all of the confusion I have seen between them, their neighbors in west Down, the Ui Echach Coba and their neighbors in east Down, the Ui Echach nArda. Gerry Hoy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net I really must get up into Armagh where the records show numerous Byrne families, and I have no idea who or what they are. >From your other recent post: "Ui Echach was probably that branch of the Oirghialla situated in what, roughly, is the present barony of Armagh"

I have wondered if the '"foreign" reference goes back several centuries when the Vikings were playing a large role in Ireland. Consider: "Magnus of the Battle of Down..." Am I wrong in assuming that Magnus is a name of Viking origin? If so, seems a little strange to me for good Irishmen to take Viking names. Unless, of course, if the Vikings were not always seen as an enemy. Could names like "Magnus," and reference to foreign influence, go back to the Vikings who may not have always been viewed, as they seem from our perspective, as the enemy? Charles Kelly wrote: > Aha! John, your translation is correct. I just checked O/ Cle/irigh's > genealogies on your website and found on p. 52: > > > "m Diarmada m Con mhuighe m Diarmada m Con muighe na nGall m Magnusa > chatha duin..." > > "of the son of Diarmuid of the son of Cu/ Muighe of the son of Diarmuid of the > son of Cu/ Muighe of the Foreigners of the son of Magnus of the Battle of > Down..." > > > As you know, this follows the Irish naming custom and demonstrates that "Cu/ > Muighe" is a single unit and the inherited part of the name. So, this Cu/ > Muighe 'of the Foreigners' either followed some of their customs or was fostered > among them. > > Sorry for going astray for awhile. > > Best, > Jerry > > > Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press > www.druidpress.com > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 2:07:11 PM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > > I should emphasize "typically" below, but the alternate translation of 'Cu/ of > the Foreigners of the Plain' is indeed possible. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press > www.druidpress.com > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 1:51:44 PM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > Hi John and Charles, > > You're right. A name like "Art na nGall" would mean "Art of the Foreigners", > meaning that Art followed their ways. But in Cu/ Muighe na nGall, the position > of "na nGall" in the phrase would typically indicate that 'na nGall" refers to > the Muigh ('Plain') rather than to Cu/. > > > If "na nGall" was instead meant to refer to Cu/, it might have been rendered Cu/ > > na nGall na Muighe ('Hound of the Foreigners of the Plain' - an extremely > clumsy > > construction in Irish because it violates the rule of not using two definite > articles in the same phrase) or much more probably, Cu/ Gallda na Muighe > ('Foreign-like Cu/ of the Plain' - a phrase which doesn't violate the single > definite article rule). > > I tried to find Muigh na nGall ('Plain of the Foreigners') and any of its > possible variations last night in Onomasticon Goedelicum and the various Annals > but could not. It's also not listed on www.logainm.ie , which is a database of > the modern Irish Language placenames of Ireland. My guess is that the name > ceased to exist after the Irish re-conquered Ulster from the Norman families who > > took it at the end of the 12th century. > > > Go raibh se/ seo cabhrach. / Hope this is helpful. > > Best, > Jerry > > Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press > > www.druidpress.com > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 12:03:26 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > In a message dated 6/29/2011 9:41:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > cain@umich.edu writes: > > Is there a literal translation of > > "Con muighe na nGall" > > (since the topic came up earlier)? > > Just interested how the word "foreign" is embedded in the name as my > internet source suggested. > > I'm not sure why he was called na nGall either (of the foreigners). That > term was usually used by the Irish annalists for either Vikings or later > Normans. Not as far as I know for Scotland. In this time period (c. 1300) it > probably referred to Normans. His father, Manus of Catha duinn, died > fighting the Normans at Downpatrick in 1260. So did a number of other O > Cathains. It was a famous battle in which the Irish were routed by the > superior > > weaponry of the Normans. One famous poem describes the Irish in their > linen tunics being mowed down by a phalanx of iron. This battle also ushered > in the gallowglass era of Ireland's history as the native Irish sought ways > to defeat the Normans (the gallowglass were much better armed than the > Irish). Not long afterwards the MacSweeneys were settled in Donegal and the > O'Donnell chieftain married two Scottish wives, a MacSweeney and a McDonald. > The O'Neills imported the MacDonald gallowglass. The O Cathains may have > as well except I have no info on that. But you do have the connections with > the O Cathain bride and Angus og MacDonald. > > I found a brief reference online: > > ""He also suggests that the soubriquet na nGall was given to a person who > favoured > and copied foreigners, rather than a person who fought against them" > > Annals of Ulster > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Are the any M222+ Bryne from Southeast Ulster? I have always wondered if the O'Morgan (O'Murigan) found in the Barony of Farrad were transplants from northern Oriel - >From 1835-6 - "Letters Containing Information Relative to the Antiquities of the County of Louth" from the Ordance Survey by O'Donovan and others, concerning the parish of Carrickbagot in the barony of Ferrad" “The principal family names in the Parish are:- 1st Markeys Na Marcaigh 2nd Rogans Na Ruagain Seun a Ruagan sing. An Ruagain John Rogan. 3rd Branagans Na Branagain Bearndigh Branagan An Branagain Bernard Branagan. 4th Mc Guires Cloinn Mhi'Guire these before. 5th the Miles' Clann Mhllidh Peadar a Milidh Peter Miles. 6th Moragans Na Muireagain Seaumas a Muireagan . sing. An Muireagain James Moragan” The list seems to contain a number of surnames common to County Armagh, i.e. Markey, Rorgan, Branagan and Moragan (i.e. Morgan). (The Maguires could be from either Meath or Fermanagh.) > From: gerry@ringofgullion.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:26:34 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Muinter Birn > > The Census of 1659 for Louth, lists Birne as the most common Irish Name in > the Barony of Louth. > > It lists Byrne as the most common Irish name in the Barony of Ardee. > > It lists Birne as found in the Barony of Dundalk, but not common. > > It lists Birne as found in the Barony of Farrad, but not common. > > Both Louth and Ardee border Monaghan, but Dundalk and Farrad don't. > > Gerry Hoy > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 4:27 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Muinter Birn > > > Of special interest to me is O'Hart's statement that some descendants > anglicized their name to Bruen. I have eight M222 Byrne who are not close to > my Donegal or Sligo M222s. Their roots are Monaghan, and I am wondering if > they are remnants of that Muinter Birn/Cenel Eoghain group that you > mentioned. Do the O Cathains have any distinctive markers, such as the > 391=10 that separates this Monaghan Byrne group from my other M222s? > Paul > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> In Murphy surname history, there is mention of the surname Mac Murchadha (MacMurphy, Murphy), originally based in present-day Co. Tyrone, in the area known as Muintir Birn, but were driven out by the O'Neills and settled in south Armagh. The reference seems corroborated in various entries in the Annals, although the name Mac Murrough seems to be applied there, which may have later been translated into MacMorrow or MacMurray. > In Colgan's Trias Thaumaturga, it mentions Ui Briuin, now Muinter Birn, alias Ui Briuinia Aquilonaris, in county Tír Eoguin, and diocese of Ardmache. This is an apparent reference to Ua mBriúin Archaille in Ui Chremthaind, a branch of Siol Colla dá Chrich, who were also noted in the Dungannon area." There is a handfull of Murphy DNA results from county Armagh (plus county Down) and none are M222+ (MacMurphy of Clann Birn kingship was Trough at the intersection of the counties Monaghan, Armagh and Tyrone). I would add another variant to MacMurphy, MacMorrow or MacMurray, that of O'Morgan (O'Muireagain one of the five chief families of Ui Tuirtre of Clann Colla (though also identified with Ui Chremthainn) and also driven to south Armagh and south county Down by the O'Neill expansion), also not M222+. I suspect a common practise of pedigree fixing to incorporate allied families (in this case former local rulers) into the political structure of kinship rights.

Aha! John, your translation is correct. I just checked O/ Cle/irigh's genealogies on your website and found on p. 52: "m Diarmada m Con mhuighe m Diarmada m Con muighe na nGall m Magnusa chatha duin..." "of the son of Diarmuid of the son of Cu/ Muighe of the son of Diarmuid of the son of Cu/ Muighe of the Foreigners of the son of Magnus of the Battle of Down..." As you know, this follows the Irish naming custom and demonstrates that "Cu/ Muighe" is a single unit and the inherited part of the name. So, this Cu/ Muighe 'of the Foreigners' either followed some of their customs or was fostered among them. Sorry for going astray for awhile. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 2:07:11 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain I should emphasize "typically" below, but the alternate translation of 'Cu/ of the Foreigners of the Plain' is indeed possible. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 1:51:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain Hi John and Charles, You're right. A name like "Art na nGall" would mean "Art of the Foreigners", meaning that Art followed their ways. But in Cu/ Muighe na nGall, the position of "na nGall" in the phrase would typically indicate that 'na nGall" refers to the Muigh ('Plain') rather than to Cu/. If "na nGall" was instead meant to refer to Cu/, it might have been rendered Cu/ na nGall na Muighe ('Hound of the Foreigners of the Plain' - an extremely clumsy construction in Irish because it violates the rule of not using two definite articles in the same phrase) or much more probably, Cu/ Gallda na Muighe ('Foreign-like Cu/ of the Plain' - a phrase which doesn't violate the single definite article rule). I tried to find Muigh na nGall ('Plain of the Foreigners') and any of its possible variations last night in Onomasticon Goedelicum and the various Annals but could not. It's also not listed on www.logainm.ie , which is a database of the modern Irish Language placenames of Ireland. My guess is that the name ceased to exist after the Irish re-conquered Ulster from the Norman families who took it at the end of the 12th century. Go raibh se/ seo cabhrach. / Hope this is helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 12:03:26 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain In a message dated 6/29/2011 9:41:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time, cain@umich.edu writes: Is there a literal translation of "Con muighe na nGall" (since the topic came up earlier)? Just interested how the word "foreign" is embedded in the name as my internet source suggested. I'm not sure why he was called na nGall either (of the foreigners). That term was usually used by the Irish annalists for either Vikings or later Normans. Not as far as I know for Scotland. In this time period (c. 1300) it probably referred to Normans. His father, Manus of Catha duinn, died fighting the Normans at Downpatrick in 1260. So did a number of other O Cathains. It was a famous battle in which the Irish were routed by the superior weaponry of the Normans. One famous poem describes the Irish in their linen tunics being mowed down by a phalanx of iron. This battle also ushered in the gallowglass era of Ireland's history as the native Irish sought ways to defeat the Normans (the gallowglass were much better armed than the Irish). Not long afterwards the MacSweeneys were settled in Donegal and the O'Donnell chieftain married two Scottish wives, a MacSweeney and a McDonald. The O'Neills imported the MacDonald gallowglass. The O Cathains may have as well except I have no info on that. But you do have the connections with the O Cathain bride and Angus og MacDonald. I found a brief reference online: ""He also suggests that the soubriquet na nGall was given to a person who favoured and copied foreigners, rather than a person who fought against them" Annals of Ulster R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I should emphasize "typically" below, but the alternate translation of 'Cu/ of the Foreigners of the Plain' is indeed possible. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 1:51:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain Hi John and Charles, You're right. A name like "Art na nGall" would mean "Art of the Foreigners", meaning that Art followed their ways. But in Cu/ Muighe na nGall, the position of "na nGall" in the phrase would typically indicate that 'na nGall" refers to the Muigh ('Plain') rather than to Cu/. If "na nGall" was instead meant to refer to Cu/, it might have been rendered Cu/ na nGall na Muighe ('Hound of the Foreigners of the Plain' - an extremely clumsy construction in Irish because it violates the rule of not using two definite articles in the same phrase) or much more probably, Cu/ Gallda na Muighe ('Foreign-like Cu/ of the Plain' - a phrase which doesn't violate the single definite article rule). I tried to find Muigh na nGall ('Plain of the Foreigners') and any of its possible variations last night in Onomasticon Goedelicum and the various Annals but could not. It's also not listed on www.logainm.ie , which is a database of the modern Irish Language placenames of Ireland. My guess is that the name ceased to exist after the Irish re-conquered Ulster from the Norman families who took it at the end of the 12th century. Go raibh se/ seo cabhrach. / Hope this is helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 12:03:26 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain In a message dated 6/29/2011 9:41:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time, cain@umich.edu writes: Is there a literal translation of "Con muighe na nGall" (since the topic came up earlier)? Just interested how the word "foreign" is embedded in the name as my internet source suggested. I'm not sure why he was called na nGall either (of the foreigners). That term was usually used by the Irish annalists for either Vikings or later Normans. Not as far as I know for Scotland. In this time period (c. 1300) it probably referred to Normans. His father, Manus of Catha duinn, died fighting the Normans at Downpatrick in 1260. So did a number of other O Cathains. It was a famous battle in which the Irish were routed by the superior weaponry of the Normans. One famous poem describes the Irish in their linen tunics being mowed down by a phalanx of iron. This battle also ushered in the gallowglass era of Ireland's history as the native Irish sought ways to defeat the Normans (the gallowglass were much better armed than the Irish). Not long afterwards the MacSweeneys were settled in Donegal and the O'Donnell chieftain married two Scottish wives, a MacSweeney and a McDonald. The O'Neills imported the MacDonald gallowglass. The O Cathains may have as well except I have no info on that. But you do have the connections with the O Cathain bride and Angus og MacDonald. I found a brief reference online: ""He also suggests that the soubriquet na nGall was given to a person who favoured and copied foreigners, rather than a person who fought against them" Annals of Ulster R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi John and Charles, You're right. A name like "Art na nGall" would mean "Art of the Foreigners", meaning that Art followed their ways. But in Cu/ Muighe na nGall, the position of "na nGall" in the phrase would typically indicate that 'na nGall" refers to the Muigh ('Plain') rather than to Cu/. If "na nGall" was instead meant to refer to Cu/, it might have been rendered Cu/ na nGall na Muighe ('Hound of the Foreigners of the Plain' - an extremely clumsy construction in Irish because it violates the rule of not using two definite articles in the same phrase) or much more probably, Cu/ Gallda na Muighe ('Foreign-like Cu/ of the Plain' - a phrase which doesn't violate the single definite article rule). I tried to find Muigh na nGall ('Plain of the Foreigners') and any of its possible variations last night in Onomasticon Goedelicum and the various Annals but could not. It's also not listed on www.logainm.ie , which is a database of the modern Irish Language placenames of Ireland. My guess is that the name ceased to exist after the Irish re-conquered Ulster from the Norman families who took it at the end of the 12th century. Go raibh se/ seo cabhrach. / Hope this is helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 12:03:26 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain In a message dated 6/29/2011 9:41:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time, cain@umich.edu writes: Is there a literal translation of "Con muighe na nGall" (since the topic came up earlier)? Just interested how the word "foreign" is embedded in the name as my internet source suggested. I'm not sure why he was called na nGall either (of the foreigners). That term was usually used by the Irish annalists for either Vikings or later Normans. Not as far as I know for Scotland. In this time period (c. 1300) it probably referred to Normans. His father, Manus of Catha duinn, died fighting the Normans at Downpatrick in 1260. So did a number of other O Cathains. It was a famous battle in which the Irish were routed by the superior weaponry of the Normans. One famous poem describes the Irish in their linen tunics being mowed down by a phalanx of iron. This battle also ushered in the gallowglass era of Ireland's history as the native Irish sought ways to defeat the Normans (the gallowglass were much better armed than the Irish). Not long afterwards the MacSweeneys were settled in Donegal and the O'Donnell chieftain married two Scottish wives, a MacSweeney and a McDonald. The O'Neills imported the MacDonald gallowglass. The O Cathains may have as well except I have no info on that. But you do have the connections with the O Cathain bride and Angus og MacDonald. I found a brief reference online: ""He also suggests that the soubriquet na nGall was given to a person who favoured and copied foreigners, rather than a person who fought against them" Annals of Ulster R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Census of 1659 for Louth, lists Birne as the most common Irish Name in the Barony of Louth. It lists Byrne as the most common Irish name in the Barony of Ardee. It lists Birne as found in the Barony of Dundalk, but not common. It lists Birne as found in the Barony of Farrad, but not common. Both Louth and Ardee border Monaghan, but Dundalk and Farrad don't. Gerry Hoy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 4:27 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Muinter Birn Of special interest to me is O'Hart's statement that some descendants anglicized their name to Bruen. I have eight M222 Byrne who are not close to my Donegal or Sligo M222s. Their roots are Monaghan, and I am wondering if they are remnants of that Muinter Birn/Cenel Eoghain group that you mentioned. Do the O Cathains have any distinctive markers, such as the 391=10 that separates this Monaghan Byrne group from my other M222s? Paul R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

""He also suggests that the soubriquet na nGall was given to a person who favoured and copied foreigners, rather than a person who fought against them" There is a Scott family in west Sligo that got its name from a man who fought against Scots. In the 14th century a Bermingham was summoned by the king to take part in a campaign against the Scots. When he returned home he was given the sobriquet of "the Albanach," and that became the surname of his descendants. In recent times the name was anglicized to Scott.

John, I may have gotten this from you several years back: "Clan Birn, descended from Bern, son of Ruadrí, son of Murchad, a quo Muinter Birn, in the line of Cenél Eóghain, according to the genealogies in Rawlinson B502. In addition Rawlinson points to a son of Bern named Anféid, a quo Tellach n-Anfida, who was possibly the namesake for Tellach Ainbhith. According to O'Dugan (Topographical Poems), the MacRuaidhris were among those over Teallach Ainbhith and over Muintir-Birn. O'Hart (Pedigrees) cites the name MacRuaidhri as MacRory or MacRogers, over the same territories, districts which he places in the baronies of Dungannon and Strabane, county Tyrone. Woulfe (Irish Names) agrees and also cites the family of MacRuaidhri as erenaghs of Ballynascreen, in County Derry. O'Hart goes on to cite, under the county Armagh, Muintir Birn, some of whose descendants anglicized their name Bruen, was a district in the south of the barony of Dungannon, adjoining the territory of Trough in county Monaghan. In Murphy surname history, there is mention of the surname Mac Murchadha (MacMurphy, Murphy), originally based in present-day Co. Tyrone, in the area known as Muintir Birn, but were driven out by the O'Neills and settled in south Armagh. The reference seems corroborated in various entries in the Annals, although the name Mac Murrough seems to be applied there, which may have later been translated into MacMorrow or MacMurray. In Colgan's Trias Thaumaturga, it mentions Ui Briuin, now Muinter Birn, alias Ui Briuinia Aquilonaris, in county Tír Eoguin, and diocese of Ardmache. This is an apparent reference to Ua mBriúin Archaille in Ui Chremthaind, a branch of Siol Colla dá Chrich, who were also noted in the Dungannon area." Of special interest to me is O'Hart's statement that some descendants anglicized their name to Bruen. I have eight M222 Byrne who are not close to my Donegal or Sligo M222s. Their roots are Monaghan, and I am wondering if they are remnants of that Muinter Birn/Cenel Eoghain group that you mentioned. Do the O Cathains have any distinctive markers, such as the 391=10 that separates this Monaghan Byrne group from my other M222s? Paul

[Didn't we have a conversation once in which you stated your simulation studies proved that haplotypes would have mutated away from each other prior to 1300 AD. and would be unrecognizable today? I remember this clearly because I brought up the case of the Leinster Kavanaghs and Kinsellas, both of whom still match yet had a common ancestor ca. 1200 AD.] I remember it, but only vaguely. But simulation studies can only show what is possible. The fact that something is possible doesn't mean that it always happens. I doubt whether I would ever have made the statement that all haplotypes would have mutated away from each other prior to 1300 AD and would be unrecognisable today. I have matches with a number of the surnames that you mention. Devlin springs to mind but as you say, there are not many Devlin haplotypes around and they don't seem to have a surname project. I see Devenney's full results for markers 68-111 have arrived. Over 111 markers I am a GD of 19 with him with 2 off-modal matches. That strikes me as very distant. Gormley, Quinn and one or two Campbells are closer, I think. Flaherty, McMurtry, M222 Burks, Fogarty. Close-ish but few haplotypes. McHarg is close, but not McHargue or Meharg. Dougan, but only one. Then, out of the blue, a 37/37 match with a Shanks. Strange. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 30 June 2011 00:26 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS In a message dated 6/29/2011 4:24:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: The Donegal McLaughlains and the M222 Cains (who I think are the group who you refer to as the M222 O Cathains from Ulster). Logic suggests therefore that either the Donegal McLaughlains are not from Donegal, or the M222 Cains are not from Ulster. There are enough similarities between McLaughlins and Dohertys and a few other Donegal surnames to establish a connection with Ireland. So I think we can lay that first possibility to rest. I myself have wondered why the Ulster O Cathains as identified by Barra McCain don't resemble McLaughlins more closely. The split comes sometime 750 AD. And most of the McLaughlins share a common ancestor sometime in the 1300s. The closest relatives within the Cenel Eoghain to the O Cathains were the Muinter Birne, well known in Ulster history. The major surname associated with the Muinter Birn was Murphy. I think there are others but I'd have to check. I know I've seen some M222 Murphys in the databases but don't know anything about them. Do the Murphys match the O Cathains? Would anyone expect them to? Didn't we have a conversation once in which you stated your simulation studies proved that haplotypes would have mutated away from each other prior to 1300 AD. and would be unrecognizable today? I remember this clearly because I brought up the case of the Leinster Kavanaghs and Kinsellas, both of whom still match yet had a common ancestor ca. 1200 AD. I don't think this is an either/or situation. We've barely touched on the true picture of Cenel Eoghain DNA. Most of it is still unknown. Prior to the O Cathains, we find O'Donnellys and O'Devlins splitting off the line of the Cenel Eoghain. There are a few O'Donnelly M222 samples out there, perhaps Devlins as well, but no one has done anything with them. Between O Cathain and McLaughlin are a tribe called the clan Duibh Enaigh. It's possible this tribe name is also the surname Devanny, of which there are several samples, both M222, but do not match. Prior to O'Donnelly O'Devlin there are a host of barely investigated Cenel Eoghain surnames,including O'Gormley of Cenel Moain, O'Brollahan of Cenel Feradaigh (now Bradley )and Mac Cathmaoil (possibly Campbell) and O'Morrissey of Cenel Tighernaigh, O'Hogan and O'Quinn of Cenel Fergusa and Cenel Coelbad and O Duibh diorma of Cenel Feidilmid (which may be McDermot in Donegal). Lots of names, lots of potential evidence, no DNA. Barra said he took many of his M222 O Cathain samples from Londonderry Co, the heartbed of Irish O Cathain terrtory. He went beyond just trolling the databases. Perhaps you should check with him. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message