Paul, I would say that only ONE member of a close cluster like my five MacAdam/McAdam lines needs to take the Deep Clade test. I'm in a bit of a hurry right now, but I know that FTDNA has stated more than once that it isn't necessary to spend all that money on separate Deep Clade tests for a group that's obviously related. Allene

Bill, your research is interesting. Thanks for doing all that. However, I disagree with your interpretation of how a Deep Clade test is done at FTDNA. They PREDICT a haplogroup based on the first 12 STR markers, but they CONFIRM a haplogroup based on testing a variety of SNPs. http://www.familytreedna.com/deepclade-haplogroup-tests.aspx Allene

>From: Lochlan@aol.com > >We just had an interesting sample join the M222 project, from DNA Heritage, > surname is Turner from Newcastle which I presume is in England. This is >one of the few samples I've seen as administrator that does not appear to >be M222+ based on STR values yet tested M222+ on the deep clade test. It's >only a 12 marker test (I'll encourage him to get more tested). The values >are: > >13-24-14-11-11-12-12-12-12-13-13-29 > >He's missing the M222 modal at almost every spot in the first 12 markers >which is highly unusual. > >I doubt much can be said about the surname Turner. MacLysaght calls it >English or Scots, in Scotland, possibly Mac an tuineir. > > >John He's had the deep clade test at FTDNA or elsewhere? The reason I'm asking is that I had someone deep clade tested at DNAH, and they didn't test for M-222. Or at least they didn't at the time of this test several years ago. Larry

We just had an interesting sample join the M222 project, from DNA Heritage, surname is Turner from Newcastle which I presume is in England. This is one of the few samples I've seen as administrator that does not appear to be M222+ based on STR values yet tested M222+ on the deep clade test. It's only a 12 marker test (I'll encourage him to get more tested). The values are: 13-24-14-11-11-12-12-12-12-13-13-29 He's missing the M222 modal at almost every spot in the first 12 markers which is highly unusual. I doubt much can be said about the surname Turner. MacLysaght calls it English or Scots, in Scotland, possibly Mac an tuineir. John

Message: 1 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 13:40:18 +0000 (UTC) From:lmerle@comcast.net Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nuffie and hillbilly To:dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <400196205.237402.1309873218884.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Hello Linda, Thanks for the great post and all the useful information. I would only add that if one reads all the messages in the thread in order they were posted then the subject has been changed a wee bit. Aye. Cheers, Linda McKee

I have a searchable version of what's called the Lamont Papers, compiled from public documents dated from around 1240 to around 1930. The word 'Scots' occurs 67 times in the first 176 pages. The word 'Scotch' doesn't occur at all. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: 05 July 2011 14:40 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nuffie and hillbilly Yes, Linda, but slang usage in Scotland is not relevant to historically correct usage in America, Scotland, and Ireland. Unless one wishes to avoid being beaten up by Scottish yobs <grin>. To establish what was used historically, one consults records. The Scotch Irish Society of America is a scholarly organization that has actually studied this and published its findings. The individuals conducting the research have excellent academic backgrounds and have spent their lives doing research like this. They've found plenty of usage of the term "Scotch Irish" in colonial America. Not "Scots Irish" (which actually is pronounced oddly for a Scots-speaker. Ie see the morphing of Fish to English Fitch, Samson to Sampson, etc, etc, etc). The earliest usage of the term appears to be Elizabethan and was applied to the galloglass who were moving to Ireland from Scotland. The Elizabeth court called them "Scotch Irish". Among them would have been the McDonald clan but these days you can find galloglass DNA in every county in Ireland. These folk were largely not the ancestors of today's so-called Scotch Irish, whose Scots ancestors (many have Irish, English, Welsh, French, Dutch, German, etc ancestors) migrated after 1600. Most after 165! 0 (settler populations in most of Ulster entirely wiped out in Rising and replaced by newcomers), and they came from the lowlands, not the western Isles. So here we have a switch in who was meant by the term "Scotch Irish'. Scottish church records are full of the word "Scotch" used for people, not whiskey. The Scots used it themselves as a common moniker for themselves. I've done plenty of Scots genealogy and seen it myself all through their own records.

Yes, Linda, but slang usage in Scotland is not relevant to historically correct usage in America, Scotland, and Ireland. Unless one wishes to avoid being beaten up by Scottish yobs <grin>. To establish what was used historically, one consults records. The Scotch Irish Society of America is a scholarly organization that has actually studied this and published its findings. The individuals conducting the research have excellent academic backgrounds and have spent their lives doing research like this. They've found plenty of usage of the term "Scotch Irish" in colonial America. Not "Scots Irish" (which actually is pronounced oddly for a Scots-speaker. Ie see the morphing of Fish to English Fitch, Samson to Sampson, etc, etc, etc). The earliest usage of the term appears to be Elizabethan and was applied to the galloglass who were moving to Ireland from Scotland. The Elizabeth court called them "Scotch Irish". Among them would have been the McDonald clan but these days you can find galloglass DNA in every county in Ireland. These folk were largely not the ancestors of today's so-called Scotch Irish, whose Scots ancestors (many have Irish, English, Welsh, French, Dutch, German, etc ancestors) migrated after 1600. Most after 1650 (settler populations in most of Ulster entirely wiped out in Rising and replaced by newcomers), and they came from the lowlands, not the western Isles. So here we have a switch in who was meant by the term "Scotch Irish'. Scottish church records are full of the word "Scotch" used for people, not whiskey. The Scots used it themselves as a common moniker for themselves. I've done plenty of Scots genealogy and seen it myself all through their own records. A nyway, I continue to use Scotch Irish and will until the yobs beat up the aged academics and force them to erase 'scotch' and 'scotch irish' from all the historic documents. Americans don't look to the English to define the 'correct' name for us Americans (I say one day after the 4th!)...so why would anyone in the homelands of the Scotch Irish let the Glaswegians dictate their 'proper' ethnic name? Someone's putting one over on you, that's why. Today's Scot is busy adopting Englishisms and "Scot" is one of them. Along with all kinds of glottal stops between syllables. The loss of Scots pronunciation of surnames is tracable through 19th century Scots parish records. 'Respectable' people spoke their surnames the English way while the low class hillbillies stuck to the old ways. Same as in the US today where regional accents are disappearing. However avoid sharing this with Scots you don't know as they sometimes get violent <grin>. My own Scots grandmother could not pronounce the surname of her grandmother (Mennoch). It is difficult if not impossible to do in English. It suggests how much of old Scots pronunciation was lost by the general lowlander population by the late 1900s.... As near as I can tell this surname is indiginous to the Stirling area -- but who remembers Gaelic was once spoken there? Linda Merle F rom: Linda < lindaspc4mc@hughes.net > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nuffie and hillbilly To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com This reply to Charles' latest post. You are certainly correct when you express an opinion that people are far too easily "offended" and quick to try and change other people or "fix" other people. This political correctness has far exceeded the boundary between my nose and my face speaking personally. The responders to your post should check out a few of the Scotland area boards for a lesson in slang and the currently accepted use of same all over Scotland. Dialects easily help to determine from whence many ancestors came from to these shores. Forever a ridge runner from the hills and hollers of Tennessee. Linda McKee

Jerry My best guess is that M'Kynueis was phonetically close to McInnes or McInness, or, of course, McGuiness. That puts it in an interesting DNA context. The Inness family seem quite coy about their DNA. McGuiness DNA is not, as far as I can tell, M222+. Certainly, it became clear that 'Kyngis' is those days meant 'King'. What also occurs to me is that if the Gaelic language doesn't have a 'K', there couldn't have been any Irish Kings. So 'Ri' and 'Ard Ri' are probably not good translations of 'King' and 'High King'. Maybe 'Ri' more accurately means 'Leader' in English and 'Ard Ri' more accurately means 'Important Leader', or something close to that. Please forgive any spelling mistakes. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 03 July 2011 16:59 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Old Scots pronunciation Hi Sandy, That's a tough one. The K and the Y in the name indicate that the name in this form was written for an English-speaking audience (we don't have Ks or Ys in the Gaelic alphabet). And the phonetic system for English-speakers then was even more chaotic than that for English-speakers today.

I'm afraid all I have is that a Gilchrist Lawmont alias M'Kynueis appears in the Inveryne Charters in 1530, something to do with a precept being directed to him. I could search for Gilchrist Lawmont - that may help a little. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 03 July 2011 16:59 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Old Scots pronunciation Hi Sandy, That's a tough one. The K and the Y in the name indicate that the name in this form was written for an English-speaking audience (we don't have Ks or Ys in the Gaelic alphabet). And the phonetic system for English-speakers then was even more chaotic than that for English-speakers today. Do you have the original spelling in Gaelic? The phonetic system for Early Modern Irish was organized and formalized by the filí (prophet-poets) by the 13th century, has barely changed since, and is used today by Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic. Best, Jerry -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 4:03 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Old Scots pronunciation Can anyone suggest how McKynueis would have been pronounced in 16th century Scotland? Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, I think you're right about M'Kynueis possibly being McInnis or McGuinness. I expect the DNA will tell. Happily, rí and ard-rí are correctly translated by 'king' and 'high-king'. Imagine the confusion if those translations had been wrong all these years! ;-) Rí (formerly spelled righ) is cognate with rex, rey, rois, regent, raj, and all those other Indo-European R-words for 'king'. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 3:24 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Old Scots pronunciation Jerry My best guess is that M'Kynueis was phonetically close to McInnes or McInness, or, of course, McGuiness. That puts it in an interesting DNA context. The Inness family seem quite coy about their DNA. McGuiness DNA is not, as far as I can tell, M222+. Certainly, it became clear that 'Kyngis' is those days meant 'King'. What also occurs to me is that if the Gaelic language doesn't have a 'K', there couldn't have been any Irish Kings. So 'Ri' and 'Ard Ri' are probably not good translations of 'King' and 'High King'. Maybe 'Ri' more accurately means 'Leader' in English and 'Ard Ri' more accurately means 'Important Leader', or something close to that. Please forgive any spelling mistakes. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 03 July 2011 16:59 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Old Scots pronunciation Hi Sandy, That's a tough one. The K and the Y in the name indicate that the name in this form was written for an English-speaking audience (we don't have Ks or Ys in the Gaelic alphabet). And the phonetic system for English-speakers then was even more chaotic than that for English-speakers today. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

What does this information have to do with DNA? I am getting tired of all this e-mail I am getting due to this subject. -----Original Message----- From: Linda <lindaspc4mc@hughes.net> To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 6:50 am Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nuffie and hillbilly This reply to Charles' latest post. You are certainly correct when you express an opinion that people are ar too easily "offended" and quick to try and change other people or fix" other people. This political correctness has far exceeded the oundary between my nose and my face speaking personally. The responders to your post should check out a few of the Scotland area oards for a lesson in slang and the currently accepted use of same all ver Scotland. Dialects easily help to determine from whence many ncestors came from to these shores. Forever a ridge runner from the hills and hollers of Tennessee. Linda cKee R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

This reply to Charles' latest post. You are certainly correct when you express an opinion that people are far too easily "offended" and quick to try and change other people or "fix" other people. This political correctness has far exceeded the boundary between my nose and my face speaking personally. The responders to your post should check out a few of the Scotland area boards for a lesson in slang and the currently accepted use of same all over Scotland. Dialects easily help to determine from whence many ancestors came from to these shores. Forever a ridge runner from the hills and hollers of Tennessee. Linda McKee

I will add my two cents to this conversation. I grew up in the Missouri Ozarks. My Wilson family migrated to that area from the Appalachian region of SE Tennessee ca. 1850, and before that had lived in Lincoln Co., NC. Our speech patterns and dialect were said to the "Elizabethan". I have frequently heard my dad use the term "donnick", meaning a small rock or stone that you could throw by hand. I haven't found this word in many dictionaries, but Webster's Third New International Dictionary gives this: Donnick: n. [by alter]: dornick Dornick: n. [pr from IrGael dorno--g handful, small stone, fr dorn, hand, fist] a roundish stone or chunk of rock usually of a size suitable for throwing by hand. I would second the recommendation to read Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fisher. The subtitle is "Four British Folkways in America", referring to the Puritans, the Quakers, the Cavaliers of the Tidewater country and the Scots-Irish (or as we in the Ozarks called ourselves, the "Scotch-Irish"). Jim Wilson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Howard" <weh8@verizon.net> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 11:29:00 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain My wife and I lived in Green Bank, WVa twice for a total of about four years. The language there often contained interesting words, one of them being 'baseborn'. There is another place where language dates back some centuries — on Tangier Island in the middle of Chesapeake Bay. There is a great book on the early history of colonial America called "Albion's Seed". It is long, but divided in sections that trace the English origins of the early settlers of Massachusetts, the Quakers of Pennsylvania, the early settlers of Virginia and the folks who settled in Appalachia. The latter came from the borderlands between England and Scotland. The wars across that border provided a feisty background to understanding the mindset of the people who engaged in the wars that often occurred between families in Appalachia - notably the Hatfields and the McCoys! I highly recommend Albion's Seed to all. - Bye from Bill Howard On Jul 3, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Allene Goforth wrote: > Charles, my husband is from that area, although his ancestors came from > a place near York, England, in the 1600s. ( He is in Haplogroup J2b2.) > > I think Scots-Irish is more appropriate, but I've seen it as > Scotch-Irish as well. The latter does tend to make a person thirsty! I > can't find my copy of The Story of English to verify this, but some of > their expressions are supposed to go back to Elizabethan England. > > Allene > > On 7/3/2011 5:34 AM, Charles Cain wrote: >> Jerry >> >> On a more serious note, I think Mr. Cassidy has a point, particularly >> in a region of the US called "Appalachia," that part of the >> Appalachian Mountains extending all the way from western Pennsylvania >> (or even into New York) to northern Alabama. It is a treasure trove of >> archaic English expressions and many, I suppose, originating in >> Ireland or Scotland. It was settled originally by Scots-Irish in the >> mid to late 1700s and early 1800s. Until recently, TV and all that, it >> remained culturally distinct. Many of the US M222 live or came from >> there. >> >> Coming out of that tradition on both parents side, I really enjoyed >> hearing the old speech as a child. It is disappearing fast. >> >> Charles >> >> PS Do folks prefer Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish? One sounds like an >> interesting whiskey blend. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Modern Irish words for that kind of personal charm include plámás and >>> carasma (taken directly from the word 'charisma'). Words for a charm >>> used to cast spells include briocht, ortha (derived from the Latin 'oro'), >>> piseog, and draíocht (the modern spelling of druidheacht / druidry). >>> >>> There was a very nice fellow by the name of Daniel Cassidy who claimed that >>> large amounts of American slang came from Irish Gaelic. As far as my >>> friends and I have been able to tell, he was not an Irish speaker and many >>> of his claims seem unlikely. Is that where the mojo idea came from? >>> >>> Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:13 AM >>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain >>> >>> For those of you who don't understand the ancient Irish language...mine >>> being somewhat incomplete by admission..."Mojo" means "charm" or ability to >>> influence others." >>> >>> Anyone confirm? >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Allene Well...I think it must be a variation of Newfie, but I am a hillbilly and wouldn't know the difference! A good friend, a Med.School Prof, by the way, so not totally unsophisticated, used to tell such jokes. Ne was from Nova Scotia. Maybe that explains it. Charles Quoting Allene Goforth <agoforth@moscow.com>: > I grew up on Cape Breton Island, but never heard of "Nuffie" until now. > At first I thought it was a variation on "Newfie" (Newfoundlander) but > not according to the Urban Dictionary. > > On 7/3/2011 8:38 AM, Charles Cain wrote: >> >> >> For list members outside the US, those of us from this tradition are >> often termed, affectionately, or more often otherwise, "hill billies." >> There is a similar tradition in Canada of a distinctive form of >> English leading to the term "Nuffie," similar to "hill billy" in >> intent I suppose, but I think more distinctly Irish. Anyone familiar >> with that dialect? >> >> I think people like to hear archaic dialects but can't seem to resist >> making fun of them. Seems we can't resist humor even if the intent is >> often not exactly benign. >> >> Charles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Allene Goforth<agoforth@moscow.com>: >> >>> Charles, my husband is from that area, although his ancestors came from >>> a place near York, England, in the 1600s. ( He is in Haplogroup J2b2.) >>> >>> I think Scots-Irish is more appropriate, but I've seen it as >>> Scotch-Irish as well. The latter does tend to make a person thirsty! I >>> can't find my copy of The Story of English to verify this, but some of >>> their expressions are supposed to go back to Elizabethan England. >>> >>> Allene >>> >>> On 7/3/2011 5:34 AM, Charles Cain wrote: >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On a more serious note, I think Mr. Cassidy has a point, particularly >>>> in a region of the US called "Appalachia," that part of the >>>> Appalachian Mountains extending all the way from western Pennsylvania >>>> (or even into New York) to northern Alabama. It is a treasure trove of >>>> archaic English expressions and many, I suppose, originating in >>>> Ireland or Scotland. It was settled originally by Scots-Irish in the >>>> mid to late 1700s and early 1800s. Until recently, TV and all that, it >>>> remained culturally distinct. Many of the US M222 live or came from >>>> there. >>>> >>>> Coming out of that tradition on both parents side, I really enjoyed >>>> hearing the old speech as a child. It is disappearing fast. >>>> >>>> Charles >>>> >>>> PS Do folks prefer Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish? One sounds like an >>>> interesting whiskey blend. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Modern Irish words for that kind of personal charm include plámás and >>>>> carasma (taken directly from the word 'charisma'). Words for a charm >>>>> used to cast spells include briocht, ortha (derived from the >>>>> Latin 'oro'), >>>>> piseog, and draíocht (the modern spelling of druidheacht / druidry). >>>>> >>>>> There was a very nice fellow by the name of Daniel Cassidy who >>>>> claimed that >>>>> large amounts of American slang came from Irish Gaelic. As far as my >>>>> friends and I have been able to tell, he was not an Irish >>>>> speaker and many >>>>> of his claims seem unlikely. Is that where the mojo idea came from? >>>>> >>>>> Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:13 AM >>>>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain >>>>> >>>>> For those of you who don't understand the ancient Irish language...mine >>>>> being somewhat incomplete by admission..."Mojo" means "charm" or >>>>> ability to >>>>> influence others." >>>>> >>>>> Anyone confirm? >>>>> >>>>> Charles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>>>> >>>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>>> >>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

If we cleaned up any language and removed all terms which might be used as a pejorative, or has been used that way in the past, the history of the language and its richness, would suffer for it. I prefer to observe and appreciate the language for what it is and how its used. As far as the language itself is concerned, separate from the people who use it, I mostly prefer to leave judgments to others. Today we are taught to take offence far too easily I think. Charles Quoting Stephen Forrest <stephen.forrest@gmail.com>: > I am Canadian and familiar with the term, which is spelt "Newfie". (I've > never encountered the 'Nuffie' spelling and at first didn't realise what was > being referenced.) > > The Newfoundland accent is very distinct and due as much to Newfoundland's > separate history and political identity as much as its geography. When I > was young in the 1970s and 1980s, "Newfie jokes" were a staple on the > playground though I imagine this has died down somewhat now. The stock > character in this jokes is someone dumb, oafish, and backwards and I > wouldn't be surprised to learn almost all of these are recycled anti-Irish > jokes. > > Nowadays, I would not go so far as to say that "Newfie" is a wholly > pejorative term but owing to its history I would never use the term to > describe someone I didn't know well. I think it's sort of on the level of > "Limey" to describe a Briton. > > Steve > > On 3 July 2011 13:22, Marianne Granoff <granoff@zianet.com> wrote: > >> >> In Canada, "Nuffie" refers to people from >> Newfoundland - where geographical conditions are >> very rugged and contact between parts of the >> island and the mainland was almost non-existent >> for many decades. This isolation led to a >> distinct dialect of old English being used by >> many who lived there. Outside of Newfoundland, >> the word is usually used to imply ignorance and >> backwardness, just as the word hillbilly is used >> in the US. The use of both words is almost always derogatory in my >> opinion. >> >> Marianne >> >> At 11:38 AM 7/3/2011 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >> >> >For list members outside the US, those of us from this tradition are >> >often termed, affectionately, or more often otherwise, "hill billies." >> > There is a similar tradition in Canada of a distinctive form of >> >English leading to the term "Nuffie," similar to "hill billy" in >> >intent I suppose, but I think more distinctly Irish. Anyone familiar >> >with that dialect? >> > >> >I think people like to hear archaic dialects but can't seem to resist >> >making fun of them. Seems we can't resist humor even if the intent is >> >often not exactly benign. >> > >> >Charles >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Quoting Allene Goforth <agoforth@moscow.com>: >> > >> > > Charles, my husband is from that area, although his ancestors came from >> > > a place near York, England, in the 1600s. ( He is in Haplogroup J2b2.) >> > > >> > > I think Scots-Irish is more appropriate, but I've seen it as >> > > Scotch-Irish as well. The latter does tend to make a person thirsty! I >> > > can't find my copy of The Story of English to verify this, but some of >> > > their expressions are supposed to go back to Elizabethan England. >> > > >> > > Allene >> > > >> > > On 7/3/2011 5:34 AM, Charles Cain wrote: >> > >> Jerry >> > >> >> > >> On a more serious note, I think Mr. Cassidy has a point, particularly >> > >> in a region of the US called "Appalachia," that part of the >> > >> Appalachian Mountains extending all the way from western Pennsylvania >> > >> (or even into New York) to northern Alabama. It is a treasure trove of >> > >> archaic English expressions and many, I suppose, originating in >> > >> Ireland or Scotland. It was settled originally by Scots-Irish in the >> > >> mid to late 1700s and early 1800s. Until recently, TV and all that, it >> > >> remained culturally distinct. Many of the US M222 live or came from >> > >> there. >> > >> >> > >> Coming out of that tradition on both parents side, I really enjoyed >> > >> hearing the old speech as a child. It is disappearing fast. >> > >> >> > >> Charles >> > >> >> > >> PS Do folks prefer Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish? One sounds like an >> > >> interesting whiskey blend. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>> Modern Irish words for that kind of personal charm include plámás and >> > >>> carasma (taken directly from the word 'charisma'). Words for a >> charm >> > >>> used to cast spells include briocht, ortha >> > (derived from the Latin 'oro'), >> > >>> piseog, and draíocht (the modern spelling of druidheacht / druidry). >> > >> > >>> >> > >>> There was a very nice fellow by the name of >> > Daniel Cassidy who claimed that >> > >>> large amounts of American slang came from Irish Gaelic. As far as my >> > >>> friends and I have been able to tell, he >> > was not an Irish speaker and many >> > >>> of his claims seem unlikely. Is that where the mojo idea came from? >> > >>> >> > >>> Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, >> > >>> Jerry >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >> > >>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain >> > >> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:13 AM >> > >>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> > >>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain >> > >>> >> > >>> For those of you who don't understand the ancient Irish >> language...mine >> > >>> being somewhat incomplete by >> > admission..."Mojo" means "charm" or ability to >> > >>> influence others." >> > >>> >> > >>> Anyone confirm? >> > >>> >> > >>> Charles >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> > >>> >> > >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> > >>> ------------------------------- >> > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> > >> >> > >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> > >> ------------------------------- >> > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> > > >> > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> > >> >http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> >------------------------------- >> >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >> >email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with >> >the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >> >subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > >> >----- >> >No virus found in this message. >> >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3740 - Release Date: 07/02/11 >> >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

When I was a boy, my Grandfather owned a country store (coal fired potbelly cast iron stove and all). This was on Straight Mountain in N. Alabama. I considered it a treat to be able to "pump gas" for customers. One older gentleman, who was a great uncle or some such, used to drive up in his pick-up and say "fill 'er up." I would say "regular or ethel." He always answered, "Why, hit don't make no diff-ernce nowhow." Even as a kid, I loved to hear people talk like that. When people use that dialect on the news or in the movies, my wife cannot understand it...like a foreign language. To me its crystal clear. Must be coded for in the DNA. Charles PS: "Ethel" most likely came from the Ethyl Corp. who made lead additives for gasoline. )Quoting jim_wilson1@comcast.net: > I will add my two cents to this conversation. I grew up in the > Missouri Ozarks. My Wilson family migrated to that area from the > Appalachian region of SE Tennessee ca. 1850, and before that had > lived in Lincoln Co., NC. Our speech patterns and dialect were said > to the "Elizabethan". I have frequently heard my dad use the term > "donnick", meaning a small rock or stone that you could throw by > hand. I haven't found this word in many dictionaries, but Webster's > Third New International Dictionary gives this: > > Donnick: n. [by alter]: dornick > > Dornick: n. [pr from IrGael dorno--g handful, small stone, fr dorn, > hand, fist] a roundish stone or chunk of rock usually of a size > suitable for throwing by hand. > > I would second the recommendation to read Albion's Seed by David > Hackett Fisher. > The subtitle is "Four British Folkways in America", referring to the > Puritans, the Quakers, the Cavaliers of the Tidewater country and > the Scots-Irish (or as we in the Ozarks called ourselves, the > "Scotch-Irish"). > Jim Wilson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Howard" <weh8@verizon.net> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 11:29:00 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > My wife and I lived in Green Bank, WVa twice for a total of about four years. > The language there often contained interesting words, one of them > being 'baseborn'. > > There is another place where language dates back some centuries — on > Tangier Island in the middle of Chesapeake Bay. > > There is a great book on the early history of colonial America > called "Albion's Seed". It is long, but divided in sections that > trace the English origins of the early settlers of Massachusetts, > the Quakers of Pennsylvania, the early settlers of Virginia and the > folks who settled in Appalachia. The latter came from the > borderlands between England and Scotland. The wars across that > border provided a feisty background to understanding the mindset of > the people who engaged in the wars that often occurred between > families in Appalachia - notably the Hatfields and the McCoys! I > highly recommend Albion's Seed to all. > > - Bye from Bill Howard > > On Jul 3, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Allene Goforth wrote: > >> Charles, my husband is from that area, although his ancestors came from >> a place near York, England, in the 1600s. ( He is in Haplogroup J2b2.) >> >> I think Scots-Irish is more appropriate, but I've seen it as >> Scotch-Irish as well. The latter does tend to make a person thirsty! I >> can't find my copy of The Story of English to verify this, but some of >> their expressions are supposed to go back to Elizabethan England. >> >> Allene >> >> On 7/3/2011 5:34 AM, Charles Cain wrote: >>> Jerry >>> >>> On a more serious note, I think Mr. Cassidy has a point, particularly >>> in a region of the US called "Appalachia," that part of the >>> Appalachian Mountains extending all the way from western Pennsylvania >>> (or even into New York) to northern Alabama. It is a treasure trove of >>> archaic English expressions and many, I suppose, originating in >>> Ireland or Scotland. It was settled originally by Scots-Irish in the >>> mid to late 1700s and early 1800s. Until recently, TV and all that, it >>> remained culturally distinct. Many of the US M222 live or came from >>> there. >>> >>> Coming out of that tradition on both parents side, I really enjoyed >>> hearing the old speech as a child. It is disappearing fast. >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> PS Do folks prefer Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish? One sounds like an >>> interesting whiskey blend. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Modern Irish words for that kind of personal charm include plámás and >>>> carasma (taken directly from the word 'charisma'). Words for a charm >>>> used to cast spells include briocht, ortha (derived from the Latin 'oro'), >>>> piseog, and draíocht (the modern spelling of druidheacht / druidry). >>>> >>>> There was a very nice fellow by the name of Daniel Cassidy who >>>> claimed that >>>> large amounts of American slang came from Irish Gaelic. As far as my >>>> friends and I have been able to tell, he was not an Irish speaker and many >>>> of his claims seem unlikely. Is that where the mojo idea came from? >>>> >>>> Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:13 AM >>>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain >>>> >>>> For those of you who don't understand the ancient Irish language...mine >>>> being somewhat incomplete by admission..."Mojo" means "charm" or >>>> ability to >>>> influence others." >>>> >>>> Anyone confirm? >>>> >>>> Charles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>>> >>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am Canadian and familiar with the term, which is spelt "Newfie". (I've never encountered the 'Nuffie' spelling and at first didn't realise what was being referenced.) The Newfoundland accent is very distinct and due as much to Newfoundland's separate history and political identity as much as its geography. When I was young in the 1970s and 1980s, "Newfie jokes" were a staple on the playground though I imagine this has died down somewhat now. The stock character in this jokes is someone dumb, oafish, and backwards and I wouldn't be surprised to learn almost all of these are recycled anti-Irish jokes. Nowadays, I would not go so far as to say that "Newfie" is a wholly pejorative term but owing to its history I would never use the term to describe someone I didn't know well. I think it's sort of on the level of "Limey" to describe a Briton. Steve On 3 July 2011 13:22, Marianne Granoff <granoff@zianet.com> wrote: > > In Canada, "Nuffie" refers to people from > Newfoundland - where geographical conditions are > very rugged and contact between parts of the > island and the mainland was almost non-existent > for many decades. This isolation led to a > distinct dialect of old English being used by > many who lived there. Outside of Newfoundland, > the word is usually used to imply ignorance and > backwardness, just as the word hillbilly is used > in the US. The use of both words is almost always derogatory in my > opinion. > > Marianne > > At 11:38 AM 7/3/2011 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >For list members outside the US, those of us from this tradition are > >often termed, affectionately, or more often otherwise, "hill billies." > > There is a similar tradition in Canada of a distinctive form of > >English leading to the term "Nuffie," similar to "hill billy" in > >intent I suppose, but I think more distinctly Irish. Anyone familiar > >with that dialect? > > > >I think people like to hear archaic dialects but can't seem to resist > >making fun of them. Seems we can't resist humor even if the intent is > >often not exactly benign. > > > >Charles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoting Allene Goforth <agoforth@moscow.com>: > > > > > Charles, my husband is from that area, although his ancestors came from > > > a place near York, England, in the 1600s. ( He is in Haplogroup J2b2.) > > > > > > I think Scots-Irish is more appropriate, but I've seen it as > > > Scotch-Irish as well. The latter does tend to make a person thirsty! I > > > can't find my copy of The Story of English to verify this, but some of > > > their expressions are supposed to go back to Elizabethan England. > > > > > > Allene > > > > > > On 7/3/2011 5:34 AM, Charles Cain wrote: > > >> Jerry > > >> > > >> On a more serious note, I think Mr. Cassidy has a point, particularly > > >> in a region of the US called "Appalachia," that part of the > > >> Appalachian Mountains extending all the way from western Pennsylvania > > >> (or even into New York) to northern Alabama. It is a treasure trove of > > >> archaic English expressions and many, I suppose, originating in > > >> Ireland or Scotland. It was settled originally by Scots-Irish in the > > >> mid to late 1700s and early 1800s. Until recently, TV and all that, it > > >> remained culturally distinct. Many of the US M222 live or came from > > >> there. > > >> > > >> Coming out of that tradition on both parents side, I really enjoyed > > >> hearing the old speech as a child. It is disappearing fast. > > >> > > >> Charles > > >> > > >> PS Do folks prefer Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish? One sounds like an > > >> interesting whiskey blend. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> Modern Irish words for that kind of personal charm include plámás and > > >>> carasma (taken directly from the word 'charisma'). Words for a > charm > > >>> used to cast spells include briocht, ortha > > (derived from the Latin 'oro'), > > >>> piseog, and draíocht (the modern spelling of druidheacht / druidry). > > > > >>> > > >>> There was a very nice fellow by the name of > > Daniel Cassidy who claimed that > > >>> large amounts of American slang came from Irish Gaelic. As far as my > > >>> friends and I have been able to tell, he > > was not an Irish speaker and many > > >>> of his claims seem unlikely. Is that where the mojo idea came from? > > >>> > > >>> Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > > >>> Jerry > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > >>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:13 AM > > >>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > >>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > >>> > > >>> For those of you who don't understand the ancient Irish > language...mine > > >>> being somewhat incomplete by > > admission..."Mojo" means "charm" or ability to > > >>> influence others." > > >>> > > >>> Anyone confirm? > > >>> > > >>> Charles > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > >>> > > >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > >>> ------------------------------- > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > >> > > >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > >http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > >email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with > >the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > >subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > >----- > >No virus found in this message. > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3740 - Release Date: 07/02/11 > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

One interesting thing I have noticed regarding "Scotch-Irish" Y-DNA is how much of it is M222 when the conventional wisdom is that the Scots-Irish originally were primarily Lowland Scots via Ulster and the Plantation. If this were actually true, it seems there would be a much smaller percentage of M222 in this population. Much of this assumption probably derives from Appalachia being uniformly Protestant. Any of my older relatives would have considered Catholics as being rather exotic. From the Plantation to the first large wave of Ulster immigration to North America in the 1740s, there was plenty of room for many changes, religious affiliation of originally Catholic Irish apparently being one of them. Charles h Quoting jim_wilson1@comcast.net: > I will add my two cents to this conversation. I grew up in the > Missouri Ozarks. My Wilson family migrated to that area from the > Appalachian region of SE Tennessee ca. 1850, and before that had > lived in Lincoln Co., NC. Our speech patterns and dialect were said > to the "Elizabethan". I have frequently heard my dad use the term > "donnick", meaning a small rock or stone that you could throw by > hand. I haven't found this word in many dictionaries, but Webster's > Third New International Dictionary gives this: > > Donnick: n. [by alter]: dornick > > Dornick: n. [pr from IrGael dorno--g handful, small stone, fr dorn, > hand, fist] a roundish stone or chunk of rock usually of a size > suitable for throwing by hand. > > I would second the recommendation to read Albion's Seed by David > Hackett Fisher. > The subtitle is "Four British Folkways in America", referring to the > Puritans, the Quakers, the Cavaliers of the Tidewater country and > the Scots-Irish (or as we in the Ozarks called ourselves, the > "Scotch-Irish"). > Jim Wilson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Howard" <weh8@verizon.net> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 11:29:00 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > My wife and I lived in Green Bank, WVa twice for a total of about four years. > The language there often contained interesting words, one of them > being 'baseborn'. > > There is another place where language dates back some centuries — on > Tangier Island in the middle of Chesapeake Bay. > > There is a great book on the early history of colonial America > called "Albion's Seed". It is long, but divided in sections that > trace the English origins of the early settlers of Massachusetts, > the Quakers of Pennsylvania, the early settlers of Virginia and the > folks who settled in Appalachia. The latter came from the > borderlands between England and Scotland. The wars across that > border provided a feisty background to understanding the mindset of > the people who engaged in the wars that often occurred between > families in Appalachia - notably the Hatfields and the McCoys! I > highly recommend Albion's Seed to all. > > - Bye from Bill Howard > > On Jul 3, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Allene Goforth wrote: > >> Charles, my husband is from that area, although his ancestors came from >> a place near York, England, in the 1600s. ( He is in Haplogroup J2b2.) >> >> I think Scots-Irish is more appropriate, but I've seen it as >> Scotch-Irish as well. The latter does tend to make a person thirsty! I >> can't find my copy of The Story of English to verify this, but some of >> their expressions are supposed to go back to Elizabethan England. >> >> Allene >> >> On 7/3/2011 5:34 AM, Charles Cain wrote: >>> Jerry >>> >>> On a more serious note, I think Mr. Cassidy has a point, particularly >>> in a region of the US called "Appalachia," that part of the >>> Appalachian Mountains extending all the way from western Pennsylvania >>> (or even into New York) to northern Alabama. It is a treasure trove of >>> archaic English expressions and many, I suppose, originating in >>> Ireland or Scotland. It was settled originally by Scots-Irish in the >>> mid to late 1700s and early 1800s. Until recently, TV and all that, it >>> remained culturally distinct. Many of the US M222 live or came from >>> there. >>> >>> Coming out of that tradition on both parents side, I really enjoyed >>> hearing the old speech as a child. It is disappearing fast. >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> PS Do folks prefer Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish? One sounds like an >>> interesting whiskey blend. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Modern Irish words for that kind of personal charm include plámás and >>>> carasma (taken directly from the word 'charisma'). Words for a charm >>>> used to cast spells include briocht, ortha (derived from the Latin 'oro'), >>>> piseog, and draíocht (the modern spelling of druidheacht / druidry). >>>> >>>> There was a very nice fellow by the name of Daniel Cassidy who >>>> claimed that >>>> large amounts of American slang came from Irish Gaelic. As far as my >>>> friends and I have been able to tell, he was not an Irish speaker and many >>>> of his claims seem unlikely. Is that where the mojo idea came from? >>>> >>>> Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:13 AM >>>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain >>>> >>>> For those of you who don't understand the ancient Irish language...mine >>>> being somewhat incomplete by admission..."Mojo" means "charm" or >>>> ability to >>>> influence others." >>>> >>>> Anyone confirm? >>>> >>>> Charles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>>> >>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Charles, LOL. And I found out there actually is another word spelled "Nuffie." Cape Breton and Newfoundland are separated by 60 miles of water. I still get the odd Newfie joke in my email from folks back home. Allene > Allene > > Well...I think it must be a variation of Newfie, but I am a hillbilly > and wouldn't know the difference! > > A good friend, a Med.School Prof, by the way, so not totally > unsophisticated, used to tell such jokes. Ne was from Nova Scotia. > Maybe that explains it. > > Charles > > Quoting Allene Goforth<agoforth@moscow.com>: > >> I grew up on Cape Breton Island, but never heard of "Nuffie" until now. >> At first I thought it was a variation on "Newfie" (Newfoundlander) but >> not according to the Urban Dictionary. >> >> On 7/3/2011 8:38 AM, Charles Cain wrote: >>> >>> For list members outside the US, those of us from this tradition are >>> often termed, affectionately, or more often otherwise, "hill billies." >>> There is a similar tradition in Canada of a distinctive form of >>> English leading to the term "Nuffie," similar to "hill billy" in >>> intent I suppose, but I think more distinctly Irish. Anyone familiar >>> with that dialect? >>> >>> I think people like to hear archaic dialects but can't seem to resist >>> making fun of them. Seems we can't resist humor even if the intent is >>> often not exactly benign. >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quoting Allene Goforth<agoforth@moscow.com>: >>> >>>> Charles, my husband is from that area, although his ancestors came from >>>> a place near York, England, in the 1600s. ( He is in Haplogroup J2b2.) >>>> >>>> I think Scots-Irish is more appropriate, but I've seen it as >>>> Scotch-Irish as well. The latter does tend to make a person thirsty! I >>>> can't find my copy of The Story of English to verify this, but some of >>>> their expressions are supposed to go back to Elizabethan England. >>>> >>>> Allene >>>> >>>> On 7/3/2011 5:34 AM, Charles Cain wrote: >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On a more serious note, I think Mr. Cassidy has a point, particularly >>>>> in a region of the US called "Appalachia," that part of the >>>>> Appalachian Mountains extending all the way from western Pennsylvania >>>>> (or even into New York) to northern Alabama. It is a treasure trove of >>>>> archaic English expressions and many, I suppose, originating in >>>>> Ireland or Scotland. It was settled originally by Scots-Irish in the >>>>> mid to late 1700s and early 1800s. Until recently, TV and all that, it >>>>> remained culturally distinct. Many of the US M222 live or came from >>>>> there. >>>>> >>>>> Coming out of that tradition on both parents side, I really enjoyed >>>>> hearing the old speech as a child. It is disappearing fast. >>>>> >>>>> Charles >>>>> >>>>> PS Do folks prefer Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish? One sounds like an >>>>> interesting whiskey blend. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Modern Irish words for that kind of personal charm include plámás and >>>>>> carasma (taken directly from the word 'charisma'). Words for a charm >>>>>> used to cast spells include briocht, ortha (derived from the >>>>>> Latin 'oro'), >>>>>> piseog, and draíocht (the modern spelling of druidheacht / druidry). >>>>>> >>>>>> There was a very nice fellow by the name of Daniel Cassidy who >>>>>> claimed that >>>>>> large amounts of American slang came from Irish Gaelic. As far as my >>>>>> friends and I have been able to tell, he was not an Irish >>>>>> speaker and many >>>>>> of his claims seem unlikely. Is that where the mojo idea came from? >>>>>> >>>>>> Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>>>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:13 AM >>>>>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain >>>>>> >>>>>> For those of you who don't understand the ancient Irish language...mine >>>>>> being somewhat incomplete by admission..."Mojo" means "charm" or >>>>>> ability to >>>>>> influence others." >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone confirm? >>>>>> >>>>>> Charles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>>>> >>>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>>> >>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathail. / Thanks, Charles. As you point out, a lot of Elizabethan English has been collected in Appalachia. Best, Jerry -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 8:35 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain Jerry On a more serious note, I think Mr. Cassidy has a point, particularly in a region of the US called "Appalachia," that part of the Appalachian Mountains extending all the way from western Pennsylvania (or even into New York) to northern Alabama. It is a treasure trove of archaic English expressions and many, I suppose, originating in Ireland or Scotland. It was settled originally by Scots-Irish in the mid to late 1700s and early 1800s. Until recently, TV and all that, it remained culturally distinct. Many of the US M222 live or came from there. Coming out of that tradition on both parents side, I really enjoyed hearing the old speech as a child. It is disappearing fast. Charles PS Do folks prefer Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish? One sounds like an interesting whiskey blend. > > Modern Irish words for that kind of personal charm include plámás and > carasma (taken directly from the word 'charisma'). Words for a charm > used to cast spells include briocht, ortha (derived from the Latin > 'oro'), piseog, and draíocht (the modern spelling of druidheacht / druidry). > > There was a very nice fellow by the name of Daniel Cassidy who claimed > that large amounts of American slang came from Irish Gaelic. As far > as my friends and I have been able to tell, he was not an Irish speaker and many > of his claims seem unlikely. Is that where the mojo idea came from? > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:13 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > For those of you who don't understand the ancient Irish > language...mine being somewhat incomplete by admission..."Mojo" means > "charm" or ability to influence others." > > Anyone confirm? > > Charles > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message