Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as long as they got the right one they were after. I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as Kennedys. Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the other man's patronymic? Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > 18th century. > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > 'post 1743' > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > Kennedy his brother > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > 578 > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > patronymics). > > > > John > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Paul, I am new at DNA family research, but I have discovered that I apparently am related to others of the Doherty name, as of perhaps a very long time ago. My name is Morrison, and apparently my family has a genetic origin somewhere in northern Ulster, perhaps Counties Derry and Donegal and thereabouts. Good to meet you! Doug On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 4:43 AM, Paul Docherty <paul@dochertyhome.com>wrote: > Hi All, > I have spent a good few years sifting through the online archives and have > extracted some of the old out of print books which have been of use in my > Doherty research and made them available as print ready books here > > www.mypastpresent.com > > I realise that most of you will have electronic copies of the books but > these are cleaned up versions of them which I find useful to have at hand > instead of staring at the screen. > I'm not making a business out of this and any profit made goes into > furthering my genealogy research, so please don't think of this as spamming. > > The reprints are from the original scanned pages which have been > painstakingly cleaned up by myself and submitted to Lulu.com for printing > and are not the OCR'd versions found elsewhere. > > If anyone wants to see other books reprinted like this I have a little time > this summer to look into it just drop me a line. > > As far as I am aware I'm not breaking any copyrights by doing this but if > anyone knows different then please let me know and I will withdraw them. > > Best regards > > Paul Docherty > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Allene, I've wondered the same thing as well. I do have a 62/67 match with a Scottish MacLean.  I'm listed in the "Niall" section of the MacLean group under Daniel Lane 1725. My close  match is right above me under Donald MacLean 1809. Any thoughts on these results? Should I start maybe looking harder at the MacLean line? Why would have the "Mac" been dropped on such a prominate Scottish surname? http://www.familytreedna.com/public/clanmaclean/default.aspx?section=yresults Chris Lane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allene Goforth" <agoforth@moscow.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:23:06 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics Chris, there are almost as many variations on MacAdam as well. I wonder if you have any connection with MacLean? Allene  R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Doug, Your absolutely right. I was surprised to see how many different ways my surname "Lane" was spelled in early Ulster records like the 1609 Pardon Lists and 1665 Hearth Money rolls. I found it listed as Lane, O'Lane O'Luen, Loan, Leine, Leyne, Loane, Lahin, Leen, Lean. The spelling was all over the place, which makes research that much more of a challenge. After my Lane's arrived in Virginia from Ulster in the 1750's I found it spelled as Laine, Lain, and Lane. I'm still trying to pinpoint where my M-222 Lane's came from in Ulster..The surname Lane does not appear to be that common in Northern Ireland today, but the surname Loane is, particularly in County Tyrone. Chris Lane ----- Original Message ----- From: "tuulen" <tuulen@gmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:10:57 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics Allene, Perhaps most people could be well aware that their family's name could have been spelled differently in the past, perhaps in another language, and may have morphed again and again, but possibly not everybody could be aware of that. Doug On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Allene Goforth <agoforth@moscow.com> wrote: > John, > > Great! I'll be on vacation for the last half of August, but after I get > back I can put it together. It'll be an ongoing effort, and I would love > to have your suggestions as well as others. You can send them to me > anytime, but I won't get around to working on them until September. > > Thanks, > > Allene > >  On 7/20/2011 4:06 PM, Lochlan@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 7/20/2011 11:04:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > > agoforth@moscow.com writes: > > > > To get  this thread back on track with the original topic of improving > > the M222  site, we could probably use a couple of reading lists for both > > Irish and  Scottish history. If there's any interest in having reading > > lists on the  site, then I could start compiling something in the fall > > (with good  feedback like you just gave me) and give it to John to add to > > the site. I  am a retired librarian and enjoy this sort of thing. > > > > Allene, if you want to work on a reading list I can certainly post one on > > the M222 site.  There are quite a few books on Irish history that could > be > > added - and some interesting old ones in pdf format from Google books. > > > > > > John > > > > > >   R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the 18th century. 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. This one is strange (to me at least). 'post 1743' Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory Kennedy his brother This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, 578 My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the patronymics). John

I am the first kit number listed and just paid to prove my earliest known ancestor, Jesse Graham, was born in North Carolina in 1781. In process of hiring a NC genealogist to help go further back. I just joined the email link today and believe this will help in my search. Tommy Graham -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of tuulen Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:18 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics Allene, Funny thing about that, I had few search results until I added an O' to my name => O'Morrison. That opened a whole new avenue of research! Doug On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Allene Goforth <agoforth@moscow.com>wrote: > Chris, > > I will take a look at that site tomorrow. I don't know where you live, > but plenty of people have dropped the "Mac/Mc" over the years, > especially if they crossed the pond. It wouldn't hurt to find out where > his ancestors came from. They don't always respond to our emails though. > SIGH! > > Allene > > On 7/20/2011 6:38 PM, cjl315@comcast.net wrote: > > > > Allene, > > > > > > > > I've wondered the same thing as well. I do have a 62/67 match with a > Scottish MacLean. > > > > > > > > I'm listed in the "Niall" section of the MacLean group under Daniel Lane > 1725. My close match is right above me under Donald MacLean 1809. Any > thoughts on these results? Should I start maybe looking harder at the > MacLean line? Why would have the "Mac" been dropped on such a prominate > Scottish surname? > > > > > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/clanmaclean/default.aspx?section=yresult s > > > > > > Chris Lane > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Allene Goforth"<agoforth@moscow.com> > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:23:06 PM > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > Chris, there are almost as many variations on MacAdam as well. I wonder > > if you have any connection with MacLean? > > > > Allene > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Allene, Funny thing about that, I had few search results until I added an O' to my name => O'Morrison. That opened a whole new avenue of research! Doug On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Allene Goforth <agoforth@moscow.com>wrote: > Chris, > > I will take a look at that site tomorrow. I don't know where you live, > but plenty of people have dropped the "Mac/Mc" over the years, > especially if they crossed the pond. It wouldn't hurt to find out where > his ancestors came from. They don't always respond to our emails though. > SIGH! > > Allene > > On 7/20/2011 6:38 PM, cjl315@comcast.net wrote: > > > > Allene, > > > > > > > > I've wondered the same thing as well. I do have a 62/67 match with a > Scottish MacLean. > > > > > > > > I'm listed in the "Niall" section of the MacLean group under Daniel Lane > 1725. My close match is right above me under Donald MacLean 1809. Any > thoughts on these results? Should I start maybe looking harder at the > MacLean line? Why would have the "Mac" been dropped on such a prominate > Scottish surname? > > > > > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/clanmaclean/default.aspx?section=yresults > > > > > > Chris Lane > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Allene Goforth"<agoforth@moscow.com> > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:23:06 PM > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > Chris, there are almost as many variations on MacAdam as well. I wonder > > if you have any connection with MacLean? > > > > Allene > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Chris, Oh, my goodness! My family name has been spelled in about every way it could possibly be spelled, and then some! But a new searcher might not be aware of how a name could become a completely different name. For instance, O'Muirgheasain became Morrison and also became Bryson. Most people could be aware of such a thing, but some newcomers might not, and so an introductory "clue" as to there being such a possibility could be most helpful to them. Membership in the M222 Club is not optional, and so a hearty welcome to new members could be a good way to get them interested in their own M222 history. Doug On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:32 PM, <cjl315@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Doug, > > > > Your absolutely right. I was surprised to see how many different ways my > surname "Lane" was spelled in early Ulster records like the 1609 Pardon > Lists and 1665 Hearth Money rolls. > > > > I found it listed as Lane, O'Lane O'Luen, Loan, Leine, Leyne, Loane, Lahin, > Leen, Lean. The spelling was all over the place, which makes research that > much more of a challenge. After my Lane's arrived in Virginia from Ulster in > the 1750's I found it spelled as Laine, Lain, and Lane. > > > > I'm still trying to pinpoint where my M-222 Lane's came from in Ulster..The > surname Lane does not appear to be that common in Northern Ireland today, > but the surname Loane is, particularly in County Tyrone. > > > > Chris Lane > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "tuulen" <tuulen@gmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:10:57 PM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > Allene, > > Perhaps most people could be well aware that their family's name could have > been spelled differently in the past, perhaps in another language, and may > have > morphed again and again, but possibly not everybody could be aware of that. > > Doug > > > On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Allene Goforth <agoforth@moscow.com> > wrote: > > > John, > > > > Great! I'll be on vacation for the last half of August, but after I get > > back I can put it together. It'll be an ongoing effort, and I would love > > to have your suggestions as well as others. You can send them to me > > anytime, but I won't get around to working on them until September. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Allene > > > > On 7/20/2011 4:06 PM, Lochlan@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 7/20/2011 11:04:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > > > agoforth@moscow.com writes: > > > > > > To get this thread back on track with the original topic of improving > > > the M222 site, we could probably use a couple of reading lists for > both > > > Irish and Scottish history. If there's any interest in having reading > > > lists on the site, then I could start compiling something in the fall > > > (with good feedback like you just gave me) and give it to John to add > to > > > the site. I am a retired librarian and enjoy this sort of thing. > > > > > > Allene, if you want to work on a reading list I can certainly post one > on > > > the M222 site. There are quite a few books on Irish history that could > > be > > > added - and some interesting old ones in pdf format from Google books. > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Allene, Perhaps most people could be well aware that their family's name could have been spelled differently in the past, perhaps in another language, and may have morphed again and again, but possibly not everybody could be aware of that. Doug On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Allene Goforth <agoforth@moscow.com> wrote: > John, > > Great! I'll be on vacation for the last half of August, but after I get > back I can put it together. It'll be an ongoing effort, and I would love > to have your suggestions as well as others. You can send them to me > anytime, but I won't get around to working on them until September. > > Thanks, > > Allene > > On 7/20/2011 4:06 PM, Lochlan@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 7/20/2011 11:04:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > > agoforth@moscow.com writes: > > > > To get this thread back on track with the original topic of improving > > the M222 site, we could probably use a couple of reading lists for both > > Irish and Scottish history. If there's any interest in having reading > > lists on the site, then I could start compiling something in the fall > > (with good feedback like you just gave me) and give it to John to add to > > the site. I am a retired librarian and enjoy this sort of thing. > > > > Allene, if you want to work on a reading list I can certainly post one on > > the M222 site. There are quite a few books on Irish history that could > be > > added - and some interesting old ones in pdf format from Google books. > > > > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

In a message dated 7/20/2011 11:04:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, agoforth@moscow.com writes: To get this thread back on track with the original topic of improving the M222 site, we could probably use a couple of reading lists for both Irish and Scottish history. If there's any interest in having reading lists on the site, then I could start compiling something in the fall (with good feedback like you just gave me) and give it to John to add to the site. I am a retired librarian and enjoy this sort of thing. Allene, if you want to work on a reading list I can certainly post one on the M222 site. There are quite a few books on Irish history that could be added - and some interesting old ones in pdf format from Google books. John

Chris, I will take a look at that site tomorrow. I don't know where you live, but plenty of people have dropped the "Mac/Mc" over the years, especially if they crossed the pond. It wouldn't hurt to find out where his ancestors came from. They don't always respond to our emails though. SIGH! Allene On 7/20/2011 6:38 PM, cjl315@comcast.net wrote: > > Allene, > > > > I've wondered the same thing as well. I do have a 62/67 match with a Scottish MacLean. > > > > I'm listed in the "Niall" section of the MacLean group under Daniel Lane 1725. My close match is right above me under Donald MacLean 1809. Any thoughts on these results? Should I start maybe looking harder at the MacLean line? Why would have the "Mac" been dropped on such a prominate Scottish surname? > > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/clanmaclean/default.aspx?section=yresults > > > Chris Lane > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Allene Goforth"<agoforth@moscow.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:23:06 PM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > Chris, there are almost as many variations on MacAdam as well. I wonder > if you have any connection with MacLean? > > Allene > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Chris, there are almost as many variations on MacAdam as well. I wonder if you have any connection with MacLean? Allene

Hi Doug, There are tons of people who find that out the hard way after they get DNA tested. Also, in the Scottish Highlands, they had to undergo forced anglicization of their Gaelic surnames after Culloden. I could write a book on that one! If it's my MacAdam line you are referring to, they have had that surname since at least the 1790s. They have very distant matches to the Lowland McAdams. Such cannot be said for my paternal MacPhersons, however. I think we were McInnises until around the end of the 1700s. Then there's the case of a male marrying into a more prominent family. I'm not sure how widespread it was, but some of them took their wives' surnames. Allene On 7/20/2011 5:10 PM, tuulen wrote: > Allene, > > Perhaps most people could be well aware that their family's name could have > been spelled differently in the past, perhaps in another language, and may > have > morphed again and again, but possibly not everybody could be aware of that. > > Doug > > > On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Allene Goforth<agoforth@moscow.com> wrote: > >> John, >> >> Great! I'll be on vacation for the last half of August, but after I get >> back I can put it together. It'll be an ongoing effort, and I would love >> to have your suggestions as well as others. You can send them to me >> anytime, but I won't get around to working on them until September. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Allene >> >> On 7/20/2011 4:06 PM, Lochlan@aol.com wrote: >>> In a message dated 7/20/2011 11:04:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >>> agoforth@moscow.com writes: >>> >>> To get this thread back on track with the original topic of improving >>> the M222 site, we could probably use a couple of reading lists for both >>> Irish and Scottish history. If there's any interest in having reading >>> lists on the site, then I could start compiling something in the fall >>> (with good feedback like you just gave me) and give it to John to add to >>> the site. I am a retired librarian and enjoy this sort of thing. >>> >>> Allene, if you want to work on a reading list I can certainly post one on >>> the M222 site. There are quite a few books on Irish history that could >> be >>> added - and some interesting old ones in pdf format from Google books. >>> >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One thing I appreciate about being M222+ is the tales of our Ancestors. Though I don't the genealogical root of my M222+ Morgans, I can can enjoy the earliest tales as directly relating my ancestors (assuming we of course are from Dal Cuinn roots). To that end I would like to share "The Banquet of Duin na nGedh” and the follow-on tale "The Battle of Magh Rath". The Battle of Magh Rath occured around 637, when the King of Tara Domnall mac Áedo leading the Dal Cuinn branches defeated the Ulaid. O’Donovan translation http://books.google.com/books?id=ngIGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA29&dq=%22Battle+of+Magh+Rath%22+%22goose+egg%22&hl=en&ei=E9gNTsSaN-fk0QG4_7CmDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=congal%20egg&f=false Carl Marstrander translation http://www.ucd.ie/tlh/trans/cm.eriu.5.002.t.text.html Would anyone have any other tales to share?

Hello, I was thinking that a M-222 " forum" style website with different sub-topics about M-222, such as FAQ, Results, Surname research, Irish and Scottish history, charts etc... would not be a bad idea. That might attract more interest into the subject. What do you guys think? Chris Lane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allene Goforth" <agoforth@moscow.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:03:52 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics Iain, Thank you so much for all this useful information. I didn't know about the NEHS series. I will look into that in September after I get back from vacation. Kintyre! Now that's an idea, and it's on the way up the coast. Will take a look at that too. To get this thread back on track with the original topic of improving the M222 site, we could probably use a couple of reading lists for both Irish and Scottish history. If there's any interest in having reading lists on the site, then I could start compiling something in the fall (with good feedback like you just gave me) and give it to John to add to the site. I am a retired librarian and enjoy this sort of thing. Allene  R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John, Great! I'll be on vacation for the last half of August, but after I get back I can put it together. It'll be an ongoing effort, and I would love to have your suggestions as well as others. You can send them to me anytime, but I won't get around to working on them until September. Thanks, Allene On 7/20/2011 4:06 PM, Lochlan@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/20/2011 11:04:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > agoforth@moscow.com writes: > > To get this thread back on track with the original topic of improving > the M222 site, we could probably use a couple of reading lists for both > Irish and Scottish history. If there's any interest in having reading > lists on the site, then I could start compiling something in the fall > (with good feedback like you just gave me) and give it to John to add to > the site. I am a retired librarian and enjoy this sort of thing. > > Allene, if you want to work on a reading list I can certainly post one on > the M222 site. There are quite a few books on Irish history that could be > added - and some interesting old ones in pdf format from Google books. > > > John > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sandy, That's one of the great unknowns, I'm afraid. All I can say for certain is that the relationship is older than 300 years. However, you have identified the point of my research (off-modal matching), which you will see illustrated in the Grier Chart 1d (Excel) at http://www.shade.id.au/Grierson/GriersonDNA.htm. You will also find another "cousin" with similar attributes at 111 markers, and many more at 67 markers. I guess that the whole point of my research is to demonstrate that off-modal similarities are at least as important, if not more so, than GD in determining relationships - within the same haplogroup, of course, comparing haplotypes across haplogroups has very little application to family studies. Indeed, it seems to me that the principle application of MCRA calculations using GD is to establish time lines within groups that have been identified by off-modal matching as being related. What you will see is that a significant group within a one-name study can claim descent from one man over a sizeable distance - in this case, about 650 years by my calculation. If by chance 162252 Cool, 78699, KKE7R Greene, and 197983 Moseley happen to be reading this, they will find an intriguing connection to the Grierson family illustrated there. Indeed (and I have discussed this with David Wilson, who has given me some sound advice), it is interesting to note that it seems (on a small sample so far, awaiting a few Greers to test) about 10 off-modal markers exist in this family on top of the 14 off-modals from L21 which identify the M222 haplotype within R1b. On the face of it, this outcome is of the order of difference that led David to speculate that a downstream SNP within R1b (later identified as M222) existed. Hence my earlier question about using 23andMe data to identify similarities in the full genome, and Susan Milligan's subsequent comments. I am guessing about another mutation downstream of M222 here. Finally, as a comment on recent postings about Morrisons by Doug, may I point out to recent joiners that the "Niall" connection is entirely speculation with respect to the history of M222. If you carry a well documented surname related to NW Ireland, and you are relatively close to the M222 modal (which by weight of numbers is predominantly a NW Irish family modal, rather than a true M222 founder's modal), then you are probably related to whatever historic or pre-historic person founded that dynasty. But there is developing evidence that M222 is significantly older than the Christian era, there is no reason to assume that it is Irish by location, and there are family groups like mine that over a long period (as determined by GD) continue to carry a large number of matching off-modal markers, all of which suggests that there are multiple lines of descent from the M222 founder. That is, being M222 does not necessarily connect you to NW Ireland, and you should not assume that "Niall" is your ancestor. Cheers David Grierson On 20/07/2011 2:49 AM, Alexander Paterson wrote: > I've just had a closer look at the list, and the match between Grierson 7874 > and Grierson 117158 is quite enlightening. I know their paper trails are > excellent too. They have a GD of 15, but with 9 off-modal matches. > > I'd be most interested to know how closely they are related. > > Sandy >

Chris, I like it, but I'm not the one who will have to do the work to make it happen. It'll be interesting to see what John thinks. Allene On 7/20/2011 9:39 AM, cjl315@comcast.net wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I was thinking that a M-222 " forum" style website with different sub-topics about M-222, such as FAQ, Results, Surname research, Irish and Scottish history, charts etc... would not be a bad idea. That might attract more interest into the subject. > > > > What do you guys think? > > > > Chris Lane > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Allene Goforth"<agoforth@moscow.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:03:52 PM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > Iain, > Thank you so much for all this useful information. I didn't know about > the NEHS series. I will look into that in September after I get back > from vacation. Kintyre! Now that's an idea, and it's on the way up the > coast. Will take a look at that too. > > To get this thread back on track with the original topic of improving > the M222 site, we could probably use a couple of reading lists for both > Irish and Scottish history. If there's any interest in having reading > lists on the site, then I could start compiling something in the fall > (with good feedback like you just gave me) and give it to John to add to > the site. I am a retired librarian and enjoy this sort of thing. > > Allene > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi David I completely agree with your view on the importance of off-modal matches, although I'd express it a little differently. I think all three of GD, number of matches, and number of off-modal matches are useful, and their inter-relationship is valuable in examining possible kinship. That's what much of my research focuses on. I'd like, with your blessing, to use your Chart 1d as an example. Would it be OK for me to link to it from my site? I'm at http://www.tmrca.com/ One point you might find helpful is that DYS389ii is not actually a marker, but the sum of two other markers, and needs special treatment. If we denote the two single markers as 389i and 389b, we have 389i + 389b = 389ii Leaving 389ii as the labs report it can lead to a matching inaccuracy in comparing haplotypes. This is relevant in Grierson, because of the presence of 13-29 amongst Grier(son) but predominantly 14-29 amongst Greer. It is a little more accurate to consider them to be 13-16 for Grier(son). 14-15 for Greer. This leads to the conclusion that Grier(son) and Greer are slightly less closely related than suggested if you use the results as reported by the lab. Notwithstanding that, the abundance of off-modal matches is powerful evidence of a close kinship. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J David Grierson Sent: 20 July 2011 03:12 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker results Sandy, That's one of the great unknowns, I'm afraid. All I can say for certain is that the relationship is older than 300 years. However, you have identified the point of my research (off-modal matching), which you will see illustrated in the Grier Chart 1d (Excel) at http://www.shade.id.au/Grierson/GriersonDNA.htm.

Iain, Thank you so much for all this useful information. I didn't know about the NEHS series. I will look into that in September after I get back from vacation. Kintyre! Now that's an idea, and it's on the way up the coast. Will take a look at that too. To get this thread back on track with the original topic of improving the M222 site, we could probably use a couple of reading lists for both Irish and Scottish history. If there's any interest in having reading lists on the site, then I could start compiling something in the fall (with good feedback like you just gave me) and give it to John to add to the site. I am a retired librarian and enjoy this sort of thing. Allene