Wow! Many thanks, Iain. That certainly is different from what I'm used to in the Irish records. Le gach dea-ghui/ Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 5:01:02 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' Hi Jerry, I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN 1642.NAMES. 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in Moy. 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in Erracht. 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in Barr. 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic Allister in Inverarkaig. 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. 12. Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Muick. 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. 15. Lachlan Vic Coil Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in Invermaillie. 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. 18. Duncan Vic Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in Glen-Pean. 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. Iain > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > From: jerrykelly@att.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > Hi Iain, > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan >son > > of Niall O'Kennedy. > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way >it > > was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to >get > > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the >actions > > of the individual. > > > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a > > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > needed for identification. > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of >the > > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host >on > > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The >way > > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > Kennedys. > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he >would > > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of >the > > other man's patronymic? > > > Iain > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > > 18th century. > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > > > 'post 1743' > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > > Kennedy his brother > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > > 578 > > > > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > > patronymics). > > > > > > > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > > >in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

New topic: M222 in NW Ireland I know there has been much talk about where M222 originated as to the progenitor. If one looks at the epicenter in NW Ireland and read the history of the Scottish clans, it appears the dilution is from west>east as thought by O'Rahilly but not borne by archaeology today. My clan, Donnachaidh (Robertson) history is of the kindred of St Columba and descend from the hereditary abbots of Iona, Dull & Dunkeld to the Earls of Atholl straight patrilineally from NW Ireland. Donnachaidh is reputed to be the oldest clan in Scotland per Skeene & Moncreiffe. Approximately 15% of the clan has the M222 marker. I can follow from Alexander Reid of Strathloch (baron Ruaidh) Reid > direct to Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld d1045 AD, who was of St Columba's kindred to Conall Gulban to Niall. I do not believe, like most, that Niall was the projenitor, but common sense dictates the projenitor was from NW Ireland based on statistical concentration. Anywhere from early AD (100-400) either from legendary Techmar down to Niall but sense dictates a patrilineal legacy such as a 'Genghis Khan'. The archaeology that I have studied is not convincing for an east>west modal and the artifacts found in England & Ireland could have happened by trade looking at geographical distribution which does not show that much of a concentration as compared to Ireland. I know this sounds corny but I had high expectations for a positive DNA for M222 when I ordered the FTDNA back in May 2011 based on genealogy and history of the clan & upon the Baron Reids being direct ancestors of Crinan of Atholl. Many members of Clan Donnachaidh aren't of the M222 mix as noted, as many Picts and I1 halogroups (Norwegian) were assimulated in the clan in the Atholl. In addition, many Robertson/Reid/Duncan women associated with the clan married Picts & I1 men. It would be curious to study MTDNA from NW Ireland as to see what comes up as to a matriarch in that locale. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:01 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 218 Today's Topics: 1. Re: New Tactics (Iain Kennedy) 2. Re: New Tactics (Alexander Paterson) 3. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 216 (Paul Docherty) 4. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 216 (tuulen) 5. Re: Calculation of a correlation coeficient (Alexander Paterson) 6. Re: New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' (Jerry Kelly) 7. Re: New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' (Iain Kennedy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:09:49 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W132C06C8D2E9EAFD8F435AA94F0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as long as they got the right one they were after. I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as Kennedys. Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the other man's patronymic? Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well > into the 18th century. > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > 'post 1743' > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > Kennedy his brother > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in > the names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against > him, > 578 > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames > but just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between > the patronymics). > > > > John > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:06:48 +0100 From: "Alexander Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000001cc477d$25104890$6f30d9b0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Another thing that complicates Scots genealogy is that people often changed their surnames for health reasons. One line of Lamonts that I've traced back to 1710 fled the Cowal peninsula after the Lamont massacre in 1646 and used the surname Patrick while living on the mainland. Over the period 1710 to 1718 a John Patrick and Findwall Hunter registered the birth of four sons in Inverkip. Three of the sons returned to Cowal as adults, married, and had children. One of them, whose birth was registered in 1710 under the name Archibald Patrick, named his children as follows: Isabel Lamont b 1737 Donald Lamont b 1738 Duncan Patrick b 1742 William McFatrick b 1744 Mary Patrick b 1746 More Lamont b 1749 Duncan McPhatrick b 1752 So. Three Lamonts, two Patricks one McFatrick and one McPhatrick, all born to the same parents, Archibald Patrick (Lamont) and Janet Currie, all births registered at Inverchaolain parish. It seems that at times, certain surnames were not good to have. So for example, in the build up to the Jacobite uprising of '45, many Lamonts, (who didn't participate in the '45), used other surnames. In the above case, once the dust had settle after Culloden, the name Lamont was reverted to, but by 1752, by which time there were more Jacobite rumblings, the surname McPhatrick was used. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 21 July 2011 03:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:43:41 +0100 From: Paul Docherty <paul@dochertyhome.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 216 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <B3DA5BE9-F534-42F5-B205-E379501B0FBD@dochertyhome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All, I have spent a good few years sifting through the online archives and have extracted some of the old out of print books which have been of use in my Doherty research and made them available as print ready books here www.mypastpresent.com I realise that most of you will have electronic copies of the books but these are cleaned up versions of them which I find useful to have at hand instead of staring at the screen. I'm not making a business out of this and any profit made goes into furthering my genealogy research, so please don't think of this as spamming. The reprints are from the original scanned pages which have been painstakingly cleaned up by myself and submitted to Lulu.com for printing and are not the OCR'd versions found elsewhere. If anyone wants to see other books reprinted like this I have a little time this summer to look into it just drop me a line. As far as I am aware I'm not breaking any copyrights by doing this but if anyone knows different then please let me know and I will withdraw them. Best regards Paul Docherty ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 05:22:56 -0400 From: tuulen <tuulen@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 216 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CABbuTowFOTVgCSm=OctD4en1o_g5euW7tNbB=G-jc1N6LC-1yA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, Paul, I am new at DNA family research, but I have discovered that I apparently am related to others of the Doherty name, as of perhaps a very long time ago. My name is Morrison, and apparently my family has a genetic origin somewhere in northern Ulster, perhaps Counties Derry and Donegal and thereabouts. Good to meet you! Doug On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 4:43 AM, Paul Docherty <paul@dochertyhome.com>wrote: > Hi All, > I have spent a good few years sifting through the online archives and have > extracted some of the old out of print books which have been of use in my > Doherty research and made them available as print ready books here > > www.mypastpresent.com > > I realise that most of you will have electronic copies of the books but > these are cleaned up versions of them which I find useful to have at hand > instead of staring at the screen. > I'm not making a business out of this and any profit made goes into > furthering my genealogy research, so please don't think of this as spamming. > > The reprints are from the original scanned pages which have been > painstakingly cleaned up by myself and submitted to Lulu.com for printing > and are not the OCR'd versions found elsewhere. > > If anyone wants to see other books reprinted like this I have a little time > this summer to look into it just drop me a line. > > As far as I am aware I'm not breaking any copyrights by doing this but if > anyone knows different then please let me know and I will withdraw them. > > Best regards > > Paul Docherty > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:10:04 +0100 From: "Alexander Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Calculation of a correlation coeficient To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000001cc4796$be1b2be0$3a5183a0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You must be the Steve Forrest from the L21+ group. I'm curious about Hannan, kit number 96185. He is an M222+ lookalike, but is L21+, M222-. Do you know whether he has asked FTDNA to check his M222- status? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Forrest Sent: 17 July 2011 22:02 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Calculation of a correlation coeficient Hi Bill, I don't think this discussion is wasting people's time, though I do rather wish the tone were overall rather more civil. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <1311272378.16334.YahooMailRC@web180707.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Iain, As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son of Niall O'Kennedy. The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions of the individual. I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is needed for identification. The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as long as they got the right one they were after. I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as Kennedys. Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the other man's patronymic? Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > 18th century. > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > 'post 1743' > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > Kennedy his brother > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > 578 > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > patronymics). > > > > John > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:01:02 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W29ACE2D0CA52FA04BB939A94F0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Jerry, I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN 1642.NAMES. 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in Moy. 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in Erracht. 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in Barr. 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic Allister in Inverarkaig. 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. 12. Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Muick. 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. 15. Lachlan Vic Coil Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in Invermaillie. 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. 18. Duncan Vic Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in Glen-Pean. 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. Iain > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > From: jerrykelly@att.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > Hi Iain, > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son > of Niall O'Kennedy. > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it > was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions > of the individual. > > > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > needed for identification. > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > Kennedys. > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the > other man's patronymic? > > > Iain > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > > 18th century. > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > > > 'post 1743' > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > > Kennedy his brother > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > > 578 > > > > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > > patronymics). > > > > > > > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 218 ******************************************

For those interested in learning Scottish Gaelic: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/Foghlam/Tagh-Cursa/Cursaichean-Goirid/cursaichean_samhraidh_en.html Le gach dea-ghui/ Best, Jerry

John, I am in the process of putting together a chart of my MacAdams right now and hope to finish it before going on vacation in mid-August. I don't know if that will be of any help in adding flesh to the bones though. I only have their history from 1790 on, with smatterings from earlier times in the Highlands, which may or may not be true, plus the aforementioned deep ancestry connections to the Lowland McAdams and the others. Allene

I've just had a quick look at L21+ compared to M222+ in terms of proportion on modal over 67 markers. L21+ is about 80% on modal compared to about 90% for M222+, so yes, M222+ is pretty immature compared to L21+. When you say "If M222 is as young as we think.." do you mean 'we' in the broad sense, or do you mean 'we' as in L21 researchers? I'd be very keen to discuss various different approaches to the dating problem with someone who can cast a jaundiced eye on various mathematical approaches. I also think it could be quite productive to have some cross-pollination of ideas between those who are interested in M222 and those who are interested in L21. Thanks, I'll contact Mike about M222 lookalikes. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Forrest Sent: 22 July 2011 04:41 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Calculation of a correlation coeficient I have no information about that, but I'm just a participant. You could try asking one Mike (one of the RL21Project admins, email address mwwdna@gmail.com).

Hi Craig, You wrote: > My question is this: my grandfather always signed his surname with an > underscore under the raised lowercase c. Was this a) an affectation? > b) a 19C typesetters convention? or c) a signifying indication of some > sort? The underlined c is shorthand for 'ac'. So Mc (here I've underlined the c but I'm not sure it will get through our list's server) is shorthand for 'mac' ('son'). When typewriters and lead type came in, the underline replaced the much older manuscript shorthand form which placed a short line over the c instead of under it. 'Mc' with a short line over the c was the original Gaelic shorthand (called 'nod' in Gaelic) for 'mac'. There were hundreds of such 'nodanna' (shorthand forms) which ceased to be used when type came in, but they are still known to experts. For example, there will be a course in reading Irish manuscripts at Harvard's Celtic Languages & Literatures Department this Fall. Le gach dea-ghui/ Best, Jerry On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Craig McKie <craig@mckie.ca> wrote: > My given surname is McKie. This was originally Macaoidh in Gaelic. The > seminal historical man was one Aie MacEth, rusticated from Strabane to > the coast of Sutherland sometime near the end of the first millenium > or so it is said. Nevertheless I was once berated by a woman at the > Gaelic Society in Inverness for not adopting the 'official' anglicized > spelling, MacKay. > > My spelling is particular to Galloway and Dumfries, there being > gravestones in the old cemetery in Kirkcudbright and Dundrennan Abbey > stretching back to at least the early 1800s with that spelling. There > is fragmentary evidence of these kindred living in the area since > before AD1300 largely based on the fact that some of said people > received a gift of land in recognition of service to the Bruce at > Bannockburn as archers. The 1841 Census has my GGG grandfather living > near Moniaive in the same general area. > > My question is this: my grandfather always signed his surname with an > underscore under the raised lowercase c. Was this a) an affectation? > b) a 19C typesetters convention? or c) a signifying indication of some > sort? > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I spent some time a while ago as part of a team transcribing BMD notices from the 1800s in a lowland newspaper and that paper's typesetters addressed the problem by writing everything as " M' " and leaving it to the reader to sort out. Given the unique spellings I have come across for my own name, I 'm not convinced that folks attached as much importance to such distinctions in the past as some family historians would have you believe. In the case of my own family, there were Gareys and Careys living close together in Auchinleck, Ayrshire, in the 1880s all of whom traced back to the same couple. One son of the couple used the name Carey and another Garey. Folks in my family used to make passing reference to us being somehow related to those Gareys but nobody seemed bothered enough about it to clear it up. John Carey -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of tuulen Sent: July-21-11 9:16 PM To: craig@mckie.ca; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question about patronymics Hi, Craig, I have seen numerous examples of that same lower case c both raised and underscored. A typesetter's convention perhaps, but it was popularly hand written, too. Doug On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Craig McKie <craig@mckie.ca> wrote: > My given surname is McKie. This was originally Macaoidh in Gaelic. The > seminal historical man was one Aie MacEth, rusticated from Strabane to > the coast of Sutherland sometime near the end of the first millenium > or so it is said. Nevertheless I was once berated by a woman at the > Gaelic Society in Inverness for not adopting the 'official' anglicized > spelling, MacKay. > > My spelling is particular to Galloway and Dumfries, there being > gravestones in the old cemetery in Kirkcudbright and Dundrennan Abbey > stretching back to at least the early 1800s with that spelling. There > is fragmentary evidence of these kindred living in the area since > before AD1300 largely based on the fact that some of said people > received a gift of land in recognition of service to the Bruce at > Bannockburn as archers. The 1841 Census has my GGG grandfather living > near Moniaive in the same general area. > > My question is this: my grandfather always signed his surname with an > underscore under the raised lowercase c. Was this a) an affectation? > b) a 19C typesetters convention? or c) a signifying indication of some > sort? > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Chris, afraid not, they are actually 'Iain' as in my name (one of many Scots Gaelic forms of John). A lot of Americans seem unfamiliar with this name and frequently address me as 'Lian' or 'Lain' though! In this case the wrong character has crept into the transcriptions. Iain > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:29:22 +0000 > From: cjl315@comcast.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > > > Iain, > > > > Just out of curiousity what does the "Lain" mean in "John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic > Conchie in Inveruiskavullen." Is that Lain? > > > > Chris Lane > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Iain Kennedy" <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:01:02 PM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > > Hi Jerry, > > I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. > > RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN > 1642.NAMES. > 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in > Moy. > 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. > 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in > Erracht. > 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. > 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in > Barr. > 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. > 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic > Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. > 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. > > 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. > 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic > Allister in Inverarkaig. > 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. > 12. > Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. > 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in > Muick. > 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. > 15. Lachlan Vic Coil > Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. > 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in > Invermaillie. > 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. > 18. Duncan Vic > Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. > 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in > Glen-Pean. > 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. > Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. > > Iain > > > > > > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > > From: jerrykelly@att.net > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > > > Hi Iain, > > > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son > > of Niall O'Kennedy. > > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it > > was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get > > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions > > of the individual. > > > > > > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a > > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > > needed for identification. > > > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the > > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > > are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on > > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See > > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > > (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make > > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > > > Best, > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way > > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > > Kennedys. > > > > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would > > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the > > other man's patronymic? > > > > > > Iain > > > > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > > > > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > > > > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > > > > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > > > 18th century. > > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > > > > > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > > > > > 'post 1743' > > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > > > Kennedy his brother > > > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > > > > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > > > > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > > > 578 > > > > > > > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > > > patronymics). > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > > >in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > > in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm working on some surname identifications for a paper I'm writing with Bill Howard. I find I really can't say much about many of these surnames but I know people have been working on them on this list. Can anyone put a little more flesh on these bare bones? Do the Cowans belong in the Grier-Millikin group? Greer/Grierson McAdams McCord Millikin.Milligan Nothing can be said with authority about any of these surnames except they are all Scottish. DNA studies on the Greer/Grierson site suggest these families are related and originated in the Nith valley of lowland Scotland. Some early mention of the families goes back to the 1200s in Galloway. Ewing/Ewin Ewings in the project mostly descend from ancestors who came from Scotland to Donegal and Ulster during the Plantation years but they do have matches from Scotland as well. The surname is thought to have originated in the vicinity of Loch Lomond in lowland Scotland. The Ewings in Donegal are documented by listings in the 1630 Muster Rolls, the 1654 Civil Survey, the 1665 Hearth Money Rolls and Presbyterian church registers for Burt congregation.

I have no information about that, but I'm just a participant. You could try asking one Mike (one of the RL21Project admins, email address mwwdna@gmail.com). However I know there are a number of different M222-like guys with M222- results; Mike has a cluster for them called 1416-NW which includes kit #96185. So it's very hard to see it all as lab error. If M222 is as young as we think, it's not surprising there would be upstream cousins with similar STR profiles. I expect these folks should be the first to think about testing for the new SNP DF23 once it's available from FTDNA. It'll be very interesting to find out where the DF23+ M222- men are concentrated, as that will offer some clue about the origins of M222. Steve On 21 July 2011 07:10, Alexander Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > wrote: > You must be the Steve Forrest from the L21+ group. > > I'm curious about Hannan, kit number 96185. He is an M222+ lookalike, but > is > L21+, M222-. Do you know whether he has asked FTDNA to check his M222- > status? > > Sandy >

Chris, I counted only two off-modal matches, so it's not something I'd get extremely excited over unless you were matching to a bunch of these McLeans, and most of them had a higher number of off-modal matches to you in addition to a close GD. Allene > Allene, > > > > I've wondered the same thing as well. I do have a 62/67 match with a Scottish MacLean. > > > > I'm listed in the "Niall" section of the MacLean group under Daniel Lane 1725. My close match is right above me under Donald MacLean 1809. Any thoughts on these results? Should I start maybe looking harder at the MacLean line? Why would have the "Mac" been dropped on such a prominate Scottish surname? > > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/clanmaclean/default.aspx?section=yresults > > > Chris Lane > >

Iain, Just out of curiousity what does the "Lain" mean in "John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen." Is that Lain? Chris Lane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iain Kennedy" <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:01:02 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' Hi Jerry, I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN 1642.NAMES. 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in Moy. 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in Erracht. 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in Barr. 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic Allister in Inverarkaig. 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. 12. Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Muick. 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. 15. Lachlan Vic Coil Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in Invermaillie. 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. 18. Duncan Vic Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in Glen-Pean. 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. Iain   > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > From: jerrykelly@att.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > Hi Iain, > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son > of Niall O'Kennedy. > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it > was recorded.  In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions > of the individual.   > >   > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about.  If there are only a > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > needed for identification. > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > are influenced by the Irish custom).  Take for example the well-known TV host on > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n.  (See > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124  )  His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > (Martin Tom son of John).  Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John).  Either way, the 3 names make > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > Kennedys. > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the > other man's patronymic? > > > Iain > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > >   > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > >   > > He makes some interesting observations.  These caught my eye: > >   > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > >  18th century. > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern  surnames > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > >   > >   > >  This one is strange (to  me at least). > >   > > 'post 1743' > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and  John McRory > > Kennedy his brother > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic  material! But there is logic in the > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his  brother is the grandson of Neill. > >   > > Would anyone guess the  following person is really a Kennedy? > >   > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan,  decree against him, > > 578 > >   > >   > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but   > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the   > > patronymics).   > >   > >   > >   > > John > > > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >in the subject and the body of the message >                           > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message                                                  R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Craig, I have seen numerous examples of that same lower case c both raised and underscored. A typesetter's convention perhaps, but it was popularly hand written, too. Doug On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Craig McKie <craig@mckie.ca> wrote: > My given surname is McKie. This was originally Macaoidh in Gaelic. The > seminal historical man was one Aie MacEth, rusticated from Strabane to > the coast of Sutherland sometime near the end of the first millenium > or so it is said. Nevertheless I was once berated by a woman at the > Gaelic Society in Inverness for not adopting the 'official' anglicized > spelling, MacKay. > > My spelling is particular to Galloway and Dumfries, there being > gravestones in the old cemetery in Kirkcudbright and Dundrennan Abbey > stretching back to at least the early 1800s with that spelling. There > is fragmentary evidence of these kindred living in the area since > before AD1300 largely based on the fact that some of said people > received a gift of land in recognition of service to the Bruce at > Bannockburn as archers. The 1841 Census has my GGG grandfather living > near Moniaive in the same general area. > > My question is this: my grandfather always signed his surname with an > underscore under the raised lowercase c. Was this a) an affectation? > b) a 19C typesetters convention? or c) a signifying indication of some > sort? > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Jerry, I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN 1642.NAMES. 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in Moy. 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in Erracht. 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in Barr. 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic Allister in Inverarkaig. 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. 12. Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Muick. 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. 15. Lachlan Vic Coil Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in Invermaillie. 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. 18. Duncan Vic Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in Glen-Pean. 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. Iain > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > From: jerrykelly@att.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > Hi Iain, > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son > of Niall O'Kennedy. > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it > was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions > of the individual. > > > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > needed for identification. > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > Kennedys. > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the > other man's patronymic? > > > Iain > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > > 18th century. > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > > > 'post 1743' > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > > Kennedy his brother > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > > 578 > > > > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > > patronymics). > > > > > > > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Craig, Funny you should ask about that. I just came across something the other day about "being true to the Bruce" in Ayrshire. They were talking about the McAdams, but if it's true, then it applied to other Lowland families with Mac/Mc surnames. They supposedly changed from Mac to Mc in defiance of the British and added two small hash marks (underscore lines) under the little "C" in McAdam. This was supposedly recognized in Scotland to stand for remaining true to the Bruce. It was also supposed to be an indication of being Protestant instead of Catholic. The Catholics for some reason remained "Mac." That certainly didn't apply to emigrants to what is now Canada. They were all recorded as Mc at first. Then they started dividing into Mc and Mac in the 20th century, but it was mainly down Irish/Scottish lines where I grew up (Cape Breton Island). Allene

My given surname is McKie. This was originally Macaoidh in Gaelic. The seminal historical man was one Aie MacEth, rusticated from Strabane to the coast of Sutherland sometime near the end of the first millenium or so it is said. Nevertheless I was once berated by a woman at the Gaelic Society in Inverness for not adopting the 'official' anglicized spelling, MacKay. My spelling is particular to Galloway and Dumfries, there being gravestones in the old cemetery in Kirkcudbright and Dundrennan Abbey stretching back to at least the early 1800s with that spelling. There is fragmentary evidence of these kindred living in the area since before AD1300 largely based on the fact that some of said people received a gift of land in recognition of service to the Bruce at Bannockburn as archers. The 1841 Census has my GGG grandfather living near Moniaive in the same general area. My question is this: my grandfather always signed his surname with an underscore under the raised lowercase c. Was this a) an affectation? b) a 19C typesetters convention? or c) a signifying indication of some sort?

You must be the Steve Forrest from the L21+ group. I'm curious about Hannan, kit number 96185. He is an M222+ lookalike, but is L21+, M222-. Do you know whether he has asked FTDNA to check his M222- status? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Forrest Sent: 17 July 2011 22:02 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Calculation of a correlation coeficient Hi Bill, I don't think this discussion is wasting people's time, though I do rather wish the tone were overall rather more civil.

Hi Iain, As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son of Niall O'Kennedy. The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions of the individual. I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is needed for identification. The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as long as they got the right one they were after. I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as Kennedys. Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the other man's patronymic? Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > 18th century. > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > 'post 1743' > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > Kennedy his brother > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > 578 > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > patronymics). > > > > John > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi All, I have spent a good few years sifting through the online archives and have extracted some of the old out of print books which have been of use in my Doherty research and made them available as print ready books here www.mypastpresent.com I realise that most of you will have electronic copies of the books but these are cleaned up versions of them which I find useful to have at hand instead of staring at the screen. I'm not making a business out of this and any profit made goes into furthering my genealogy research, so please don't think of this as spamming. The reprints are from the original scanned pages which have been painstakingly cleaned up by myself and submitted to Lulu.com for printing and are not the OCR'd versions found elsewhere. If anyone wants to see other books reprinted like this I have a little time this summer to look into it just drop me a line. As far as I am aware I'm not breaking any copyrights by doing this but if anyone knows different then please let me know and I will withdraw them. Best regards Paul Docherty

Another thing that complicates Scots genealogy is that people often changed their surnames for health reasons. One line of Lamonts that I've traced back to 1710 fled the Cowal peninsula after the Lamont massacre in 1646 and used the surname Patrick while living on the mainland. Over the period 1710 to 1718 a John Patrick and Findwall Hunter registered the birth of four sons in Inverkip. Three of the sons returned to Cowal as adults, married, and had children. One of them, whose birth was registered in 1710 under the name Archibald Patrick, named his children as follows: Isabel Lamont b 1737 Donald Lamont b 1738 Duncan Patrick b 1742 William McFatrick b 1744 Mary Patrick b 1746 More Lamont b 1749 Duncan McPhatrick b 1752 So. Three Lamonts, two Patricks one McFatrick and one McPhatrick, all born to the same parents, Archibald Patrick (Lamont) and Janet Currie, all births registered at Inverchaolain parish. It seems that at times, certain surnames were not good to have. So for example, in the build up to the Jacobite uprising of '45, many Lamonts, (who didn't participate in the '45), used other surnames. In the above case, once the dust had settle after Culloden, the name Lamont was reverted to, but by 1752, by which time there were more Jacobite rumblings, the surname McPhatrick was used. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 21 July 2011 03:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm)