Hi, Susan, I am a DNA noob, one of the R-M222 group, and I do appreciate the "plain language" discussion, thank you! Doug On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:07 AM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > > < > http://us.mc1254.mail.yahoo.com/mc/showMessage;_ylc=X3oDMTBrZ28zdG8wBF9TAzM5ODMwMTAyNwRhYwNGbGFn?sMid=0&fid=Sent&filterBy=&.rand=457779509&midIndex=0&mid=1_76273_AGziimIAAXGtTkiuXwk85GpkyG8&f=1&fromId=frmid2va%40yahoo.com&m=1_76273_AGziimIAAXGtTkiuXwk85GpkyG8%2C1_75893_AGjiimIAAAFFTkhFFQGYrgIUjf0%2C1_75510_AHHiimIAAJatTkajwwyuUDQJp0E%2C1_278_AGjiimIAANsdTkaZ4gQmTUD64OY%2C1_659_AEriimIAAFYtTkXsqwnoVi%2B8Cjs%2C1_1020_AEriimIAABvXTkXj%2BQXX%2Bjv23Hw%2C&sort=date&order=down&startMid=0&hash=13257c9050d03433a295a149a20ca132&.jsrand=4657804&acrumb=JV7QM4b%2FYIa&mcrumb=1xR1rtu2PRO&enc=auto&cmd=msg.flag > > > > > I have a question which I've searched for an answer or even a > discussion of in all the reading lists, message boards, papers, and > web sites; and I'm either a total moron or the answers just are not > discussed. > > > Our M222 signature is a bit off model yet remains with-in profile. For > some of the marker variance, the 1 pt off is among those markers which > may mutate faster and/or more easlily than others. > > Our test result shows a dys 392 value at 15 which is yet with-in profile > while also considered off model. This particular marker is considered > one of the more stable markers tested. > > Of further interest to me is this combination of dys 392=15 and > 389-2=28. In all of FTDNA data base and Y search, our test subject > sample has NO exact matches at the 12 marker panel. It fits the M222 > profile as well as has several close matches at 67 (by close I'm > referring to 3 or 4 gd @ 67). One of those matches is with-in the > surname while all the rest are with a majority surname and and a few > others in the same parent project we tested under. > > I suppose what I'm really trying to figure out is whether that dys 392 > value of 15 is a mutation from 14, if the 14 we see as the highest > percentage value consistent with the M222 model signature today (in the > here and now) is the mutation from 15, OR if our test subject's > particular signature may represent a transitional model yet not defined. > > I have seen other R1b's with a DYS 392 = 15 -- not many I might add, and > by enlarge those I have found have a dys 389-2 value at 29 rather than > the 28 as our result shows. > > I did some critical looks at all the papers on line I could find, looked > at all the literature I could understand; found 1 website only which > even mentioned dys 392 = 15, and it was a one liner suggesting, don't > know. The one thing that seems clear is that that particular value > among all the R1b's is well in the minority. I did one of the online > analysis of haplotypes to get a result back that read 50% old Irish, 50% > Ulster Irish what ever that means -- I'm kidding, I know what that > means, but it didn't do a thing to answer my question. > > We joined the genographic project hoping they might shed some light on > the subject. In a word, NOPE! > > I'm trying to entice one of two male 3rd cousins to do a Y12 to see if > the signature is the same. That may or may not shed light on the > subject depending; but I'd guess that since all the male ancestors are > the same up until the last 3 generations that it's likely to be identical. > > Does anyone have any ideas or can point me in the direction of someone? > You notice that I didn't get overly involved in the terminology. I > really believe that we can explain very well in simple terms and that > may also benefit those who are not fully up to speed on the terminology > -- and although I get most of it, it also really is much easier to > understand in basic everyday language. frmid2va@yahoo.com or > chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

<http://us.mc1254.mail.yahoo.com/mc/showMessage;_ylc=X3oDMTBrZ28zdG8wBF9TAzM5ODMwMTAyNwRhYwNGbGFn?sMid=0&fid=Sent&filterBy=&.rand=457779509&midIndex=0&mid=1_76273_AGziimIAAXGtTkiuXwk85GpkyG8&f=1&fromId=frmid2va%40yahoo.com&m=1_76273_AGziimIAAXGtTkiuXwk85GpkyG8%2C1_75893_AGjiimIAAAFFTkhFFQGYrgIUjf0%2C1_75510_AHHiimIAAJatTkajwwyuUDQJp0E%2C1_278_AGjiimIAANsdTkaZ4gQmTUD64OY%2C1_659_AEriimIAAFYtTkXsqwnoVi%2B8Cjs%2C1_1020_AEriimIAABvXTkXj%2BQXX%2Bjv23Hw%2C&sort=date&order=down&startMid=0&hash=13257c9050d03433a295a149a20ca132&.jsrand=4657804&acrumb=JV7QM4b%2FYIa&mcrumb=1xR1rtu2PRO&enc=auto&cmd=msg.flag> I have a question which I've searched for an answer or even a discussion of in all the reading lists, message boards, papers, and web sites; and I'm either a total moron or the answers just are not discussed. Our M222 signature is a bit off model yet remains with-in profile. For some of the marker variance, the 1 pt off is among those markers which may mutate faster and/or more easlily than others. Our test result shows a dys 392 value at 15 which is yet with-in profile while also considered off model. This particular marker is considered one of the more stable markers tested. Of further interest to me is this combination of dys 392=15 and 389-2=28. In all of FTDNA data base and Y search, our test subject sample has NO exact matches at the 12 marker panel. It fits the M222 profile as well as has several close matches at 67 (by close I'm referring to 3 or 4 gd @ 67). One of those matches is with-in the surname while all the rest are with a majority surname and and a few others in the same parent project we tested under. I suppose what I'm really trying to figure out is whether that dys 392 value of 15 is a mutation from 14, if the 14 we see as the highest percentage value consistent with the M222 model signature today (in the here and now) is the mutation from 15, OR if our test subject's particular signature may represent a transitional model yet not defined. I have seen other R1b's with a DYS 392 = 15 -- not many I might add, and by enlarge those I have found have a dys 389-2 value at 29 rather than the 28 as our result shows. I did some critical looks at all the papers on line I could find, looked at all the literature I could understand; found 1 website only which even mentioned dys 392 = 15, and it was a one liner suggesting, don't know. The one thing that seems clear is that that particular value among all the R1b's is well in the minority. I did one of the online analysis of haplotypes to get a result back that read 50% old Irish, 50% Ulster Irish what ever that means -- I'm kidding, I know what that means, but it didn't do a thing to answer my question. We joined the genographic project hoping they might shed some light on the subject. In a word, NOPE! I'm trying to entice one of two male 3rd cousins to do a Y12 to see if the signature is the same. That may or may not shed light on the subject depending; but I'd guess that since all the male ancestors are the same up until the last 3 generations that it's likely to be identical. Does anyone have any ideas or can point me in the direction of someone? You notice that I didn't get overly involved in the terminology. I really believe that we can explain very well in simple terms and that may also benefit those who are not fully up to speed on the terminology -- and although I get most of it, it also really is much easier to understand in basic everyday language. frmid2va@yahoo.com or chantillycarpets@earthlink.net

Well, I just thought it made fine material for a really bad pun. Couldn't resist. ;-) _______________________________ Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Yair Davidiy <britam@netvision.net.il>wrote: > At 01:24 AM 8/3/2011, you wrote: > > This news is welcome if only because it might arouse interest in the > subject > and lead to a rethink concerning ancestry. > > The Irish in the Middle Ages (e.g. in the court of Charlemagne) were > ascribed Egyptian origin!! > > Nevertheless we should be careful. > The examination of Tut may never have taken place but some other > event have been inserted for illustration purposes. > See on the net the lengthy correspondence that took place over this matter. > We do not know and the Egyptians are not saying. > They refuse to allow a re-examination. > Yair Davidiy > Jerusalem > Israel > [and according to the wonders of DNA possibly a descendant of Nial.] > > > >Bet you didn't expect your y-chromosome test would help you find your, > >um, *mummy > >*(sorry, couldn't help that). M-222... and just about everything else is > >Western Europe... is a subset of the group referenced below, of course. > >Half of European men share King Tut's DNA > > > >LONDON Aug 1 (Reuters Life!) - Up to 70 percent of British men and half of > >all Western European men are related to the Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamun, > >geneticists in Switzerland said. > > > >Scientists at Zurich-based DNA genealogy centre, iGENEA, reconstructed the > >DNA profile of the boy Pharaoh, who ascended the throne at the age of > nine, > >his father Akhenaten and grandfather Amenhotep III, based on a film that > was > >made for the Discovery Channel. > > > >The results showed that King Tut belonged to a genetic profile group, > known > >as haplogroup R1b1a2, to which more than 50 percent of all men in Western > >Europe belong, indicating that they share a common ancestor. > > > >Among modern-day Egyptians this haplogroup contingent is below 1 percent, > >according to iGENEA. > >http://af.reuters.com/article/egyptNews/idAFL3E7J135P20110801 > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > >http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > >signature database 6345 (20110802) __________ > > > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > > >http://www.eset.com > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

In a message dated 8/13/2011 9:40:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, stevelominac@hotmail.com writes: My apologies. I thought I had fixed that Lominac-Lauterecken item. That Lominac/Laminack group from Lauterecken is J2b. My branch is an NPE from that group. After a recent match at 23 and me via a maternal line, it appears I have triangulated with an Irish Freeman line that is goes back some 4-5 centuries to England but not quite ready to publish that without more confirmation with the Freeman project folks. As of now, I'm simply Lominac/M222/South Carolina. Steve, I pulled that off a very old spreadsheet so it's no fault of yours. John

Hi, The origin of the Morrison family, Mac Ghille Mhoire, claims that a Norwegian man, his Irish wife and their infant son were shipwrecked during their return from Norway to Ireland, and that they then fortunately made their way to the Isle of Lewis, then belonging to Norway. Today, DNA evidence confirms a linkage between Scandinavia and the Hebrides. Doug On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 9:47 PM, <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > Here's an email I just received from an M222 testee in Norway. > > Hello, > > > My Name is Jan Storehaug - quite new to this project and the whole concept > of DNA and heritage. I noted that "a very few individuals have been found > in > … Norway.." Well, here is one of them, me and my brother. Our relatives > can be traced back many generations to the West of Norway - close to > Sognefjorden : I can just speculate how we relate to Northern Ireland/ > Scotland - > but it is very fascinating to investigate :-) > If anyone in this group had any interest in us being from Norway - or can > provide any information about others - please give them my e-mail address. > > > Best regards, > > > Jan S > > _storehaug@gmail.com_ (mailto:storehaug@gmail.com) > > > We do have some M222 from Scandinavian counties. I sent him a list from > my own files. > > > Norway is interesting in terms of M222. Everyone acknowledges there are > some Scandinavian M222 samples yet whenever the subject arises the > assumption is they must be captured Irish slaves or thralls (is that the > right > term?). I'm not so sure myself. > > The Capellli census of the British Isles found a few possible M222 > haplotypes in Germany, Denmark and Norway (3). And there are some > Scandinavian > samples in the databases (Ysearch and Sorenson). > > Denmark > > SMGFMyrup > SMGFJacobson > > > Sweden > > CH83B Fryklöf Sweden > SMGF NILLSON Sweden > > Iceland > > SMGF MYRES Iceland > > Germany > > > QVDQ9 Brune Germany > YZWJ9 Baker Bingen-on the Rhine, Germany > WCZUU Lominac Lauterecken, Germany > German Project (FTDNA) Willauer Germany > German. Proj.(FTDNA) Diehl Germany > SMGF Steiner Oberschlesion, Germany > 32NVU Jaeckel Hesse-Darmstadt/Hessen-Darmstadt, Germany > 59TV6 Hagan Germany > SMGF Kohl Darmstadt, Hessen > GMK33 Stoehr Roschbach, Palatinate/Pfalz, Germany > 4MXVZ Stroup U.S. (German descent) > PVTA8 Rotenberry Germany > 3RPDB Shoemaker Germany > > > There are probably more that can be found. Some of the German samples > came from the U.S.and the owners think they are NPEs of some kind in the > U.S. > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 8/13/2011 4:03:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, Alanmill10@aol.com writes: For example, there is a Milligan-Johnston connection, which starts in Annandale, with the Rev. George Milligen of Moffat, whose son Dr. George Milligen married Sophia Johnston daughter of the laird of Corehead in 1725. Their son, also Dr. George Milligan, settle in South Carolina in the 1750s. He later returned to Scotland. He took the title Milligen-Johnston after he inherited his mother's estate at Corehead in Annandale. Other members of this family settled in South Carolina in the 1700s. That would seem to be provable via conventional genealogy. I wonder how McCamish and Jordan might fit in?. The other MIlligrans are so far apart it seems doubtful they're related at all. John

Here's an email I just received from an M222 testee in Norway. Hello, My Name is Jan Storehaug - quite new to this project and the whole concept of DNA and heritage. I noted that "a very few individuals have been found in … Norway.." Well, here is one of them, me and my brother. Our relatives can be traced back many generations to the West of Norway - close to Sognefjorden : I can just speculate how we relate to Northern Ireland/ Scotland - but it is very fascinating to investigate :-) If anyone in this group had any interest in us being from Norway - or can provide any information about others - please give them my e-mail address. Best regards, Jan S _storehaug@gmail.com_ (mailto:storehaug@gmail.com) We do have some M222 from Scandinavian counties. I sent him a list from my own files. Norway is interesting in terms of M222. Everyone acknowledges there are some Scandinavian M222 samples yet whenever the subject arises the assumption is they must be captured Irish slaves or thralls (is that the right term?). I'm not so sure myself. The Capellli census of the British Isles found a few possible M222 haplotypes in Germany, Denmark and Norway (3). And there are some Scandinavian samples in the databases (Ysearch and Sorenson). Denmark SMGFMyrup SMGFJacobson Sweden CH83B Fryklöf Sweden SMGF NILLSON Sweden Iceland SMGF MYRES Iceland Germany QVDQ9 Brune Germany YZWJ9 Baker Bingen-on the Rhine, Germany WCZUU Lominac Lauterecken, Germany German Project (FTDNA) Willauer Germany German. Proj.(FTDNA) Diehl Germany SMGF Steiner Oberschlesion, Germany 32NVU Jaeckel Hesse-Darmstadt/Hessen-Darmstadt, Germany 59TV6 Hagan Germany SMGF Kohl Darmstadt, Hessen GMK33 Stoehr Roschbach, Palatinate/Pfalz, Germany 4MXVZ Stroup U.S. (German descent) PVTA8 Rotenberry Germany 3RPDB Shoemaker Germany There are probably more that can be found. Some of the German samples came from the U.S.and the owners think they are NPEs of some kind in the U.S.

My apologies. I thought I had fixed that Lominac-Lauterecken item. That Lominac/Laminack group from Lauterecken is J2b. My branch is an NPE from that group. After a recent match at 23 and me via a maternal line, it appears I have triangulated with an Irish Freeman line that is goes back some 4-5 centuries to England but not quite ready to publish that without more confirmation with the Freeman project folks. As of now, I'm simply Lominac/M222/South Carolina. Regards, Steve > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:47:20 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Norway > > Here's an email I just received from an M222 testee in Norway. > > Hello, > > > My Name is Jan Storehaug - quite new to this project and the whole concept > of DNA and heritage. I noted that "a very few individuals have been found in > … Norway.." Well, here is one of them, me and my brother. Our relatives > can be traced back many generations to the West of Norway - close to > Sognefjorden : I can just speculate how we relate to Northern Ireland/ Scotland - > but it is very fascinating to investigate :-) > If anyone in this group had any interest in us being from Norway - or can > provide any information about others - please give them my e-mail address. > > > Best regards, > > > Jan S > > _storehaug@gmail.com_ (mailto:storehaug@gmail.com) > > > We do have some M222 from Scandinavian counties. I sent him a list from > my own files. > > > Norway is interesting in terms of M222. Everyone acknowledges there are > some Scandinavian M222 samples yet whenever the subject arises the > assumption is they must be captured Irish slaves or thralls (is that the > right > term?). I'm not so sure myself. > > The Capellli census of the British Isles found a few possible M222 > haplotypes in Germany, Denmark and Norway (3). And there are some > Scandinavian > samples in the databases (Ysearch and Sorenson). > > Denmark > > SMGFMyrup > SMGFJacobson > > > Sweden > > CH83B Fryklöf Sweden > SMGF NILLSON Sweden > > Iceland > > SMGF MYRES Iceland > > Germany > > > QVDQ9 Brune Germany > YZWJ9 Baker Bingen-on the Rhine, Germany > WCZUU Lominac Lauterecken, Germany > German Project (FTDNA) Willauer Germany > German. Proj.(FTDNA) Diehl Germany > SMGF Steiner Oberschlesion, Germany > 32NVU Jaeckel Hesse-Darmstadt/Hessen-Darmstadt, Germany > 59TV6 Hagan Germany > SMGF Kohl Darmstadt, Hessen > GMK33 Stoehr Roschbach, Palatinate/Pfalz, Germany > 4MXVZ Stroup U.S. (German descent) > PVTA8 Rotenberry Germany > 3RPDB Shoemaker Germany > > > There are probably more that can be found. Some of the German samples > came from the U.S.and the owners think they are NPEs of some kind in the > U.S. > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I've got two Milligans who made it to somewhere in the 67-marker match list with some of my MacAdam lines, but I'm not sure who they are. Been too busy to finish the chart I'm working on, but plan to pick up after I get back from vacation in Cape Breton. Allene

John I agree there is an interesting cluster between one branch of the Milliken/Milligans and the Johnston family, and I would hazard a guess based on an extensive knowledge of the history of this family in Dumfriesshire, a Milligan took the name Johnston. For example, there is a Milligan-Johnston connection, which starts in Annandale, with the Rev. George Milligen of Moffat, whose son Dr. George Milligen married Sophia Johnston daughter of the laird of Corehead in 1725. Their son, also Dr. George Milligan, settle in South Carolina in the 1750s. He later returned to Scotland. He took the title Milligen-Johnston after he inherited his mother's estate at Corehead in Annandale. Other members of this family settled in South Carolina in the 1700s. Alan In a message dated 11/08/2011 03:07:02 GMT Standard Time, Lochlan@aol.com writes: 'The Milligans, Johnsons, Jordans and McCamish have an interesting cluster within M222. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility.html_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility.html) John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Linda, Fortunately, nobody ever told me any wild stories about my Morrison family history, and so no matter what I discover I will not be disappointed. I was born in the US, my father was born in Edinburgh, Scotland and migrated along with his parents to the US when he was just an infant, and his father and father's family were from Northern Ireland for the few generations that I was aware of. But just where my family might originally have come from was a complete mystery to me. So, just out of curiosity, I made an Internet search. I had assumed the name was originally from somewhere in Scotland, and so that is where I began looking, but it did not take long to find a tangled Morrison history there. Realizing that I needed expert help, I contacted the Morrison Society of North America. The MSNA is promoting a Morrison DNA project, largely because the Morrison name was popularly adopted hundreds of years ago by at least several different families who otherwise are not genetically related to each other, so that a DNA test could help to tell which historic Morrison family one of today's Morrisons come from, and I was invited to participate. It was then quite a surprise to discover that I do not match any of the known Morrison DNA groups. What? How could that be? My name is Morrison! At Family Tree, I am included among page after page of obviously Irish names as distant relatives. On the Family Origins page, where percentages of national relationships are shown, Scotland appears at about 2.5 percent, Northern Ireland appears at about 3 percent and Ireland appears at about 6.5 percent. Then, I have a 35/37 match with another Morrison. He and I exchanged e-mail, and it turns out that his family traces back to Ulster, too. He and I also are in the M222 group. I am genetically related to at least a few ancient families known to have once lived in northern Ulster, predominantly in and around Counties Derry and Donegal, clusters as the geneticists call them, and none of those genetic clusters appear anywhere else. Again, too bad that ancient names do not have DNA! Doug On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 8:22 AM, <lmerle@comcast.net> wrote: > Hi Doug, > > Our 'family history' tends to conform to our ethnic identity (or our > ancestors' <grin>) as we tend to lose details that could cause the neighbors > to raise eyebrows about us, or worse. This is especially so in Ireland. > > I always, always check a surname book, first thing. For Ulster, there's > Bell's book, variously named "Book of Ulster Surnames", as well as sometimes > Scotch-Irish, if memory doesn't fail me. By 'Scotch-Irish" I believe he > meant 'maybe Scots, maybe Irish". Whatever title you find it under, it seems > to be the same book, an inexpensive paperback. Rule number 1 of using this > book is USE THE INDEX. That's because if you look up your surname, you might > not find it because it is under another name. Or there are additional > treatments under other names. And so it can lead you to other names your > ancestors might have used. Surnames in Ulster are very very recent and while > many were proud of their clan -- a surname was just something the English > pegged on you so they could find you to tax you, imprison you, or other > unpleasantries. You often had two versions: one for 'them' and one by which > your friends knew you. THis continued till 1900, says this book, but I > suspect it's still going o! > n. > > Morrison --197 -- he says in Ulster it could be of English, Scots or Irish > origin. He gives a Donegal origin in a learned sept of O Muirgheasain (from > muirgheas or sea valour), erenaghs of Clanmonay in Inishowen. To me this is > very interesting because we have had DNA matches with the McCamishes on > Inishowen. It has sparked a fantasy of them moving eastward with the > advancing O'Neills, over the centuries. Also according to one story I heard, > with the O'Donnells 'took over' Inishowen, their cousins all left but for > one clan, which stayed on near Moville, and they later took the surname > McCormick. I haven't located a McCormick of this origin to compare with my > McC's. > > Anyway, Bell gives a trail of anglicizations like O'Mrisane. Which gave > rise to Bryson in Co. Derry (and Brice and Bryce, also used in Donegal for > Breslin). > > Then it gets interesting: a branch of the Donegal Morrisons migrated at > some point to Lewis and Harris in the Scottish Isles, where they became > bards to the MacLeods of Dunvegan. Their chief had a seat at Habost Ness in > Lewis and was hereditary judge for the island. Besides these guys, there > were other Scottish septs: two of Clan Buchanan that descend from > illegitimate sons named Maurice. > > So if you think Morrison is only a Scots surname, it means you haven't > checked this book. He compiled it from a number of other sources -- you can > check all them instead, but it takes longer <grin>. > > Then to make it more confusing, our ancestors actually were not so > concerned as we sometimes think about a man's origins. So if he married a > gal in the community and adopted her religion, whatever that might be, they > accepted him. There are many clearly Irish surnames among the early > Presbyterians in western Pennsylvania. These names tell us right where they > came from: the North coast! So it's handy that they were not. > > Finally, it wasn't till around 1600 or so that Scots Gaelic is recognized > by the linguists I've read as a language separate from Irish. As late as > 1700 many of the Presbyterians in the Bushmills area of Antrim couldn't > speak English (from book on Presbyterians and the Irish language). They were > one big happy family, all speaking the same language and part of the same > Gaelic culture. When my Andersons came with the McDonalds circa 1550, they > spoke a common language with the locals. Of course the army was a might > short on women, but it wasn't hard to find an Irish girl to marry. To assume > a man was ethnically Scots because his Y chromo might be, might be a little > incorrect <grin>. > > Especially in the sea kingdom! We see the ocean as a barrier -- but to the > people in Ulster and western Scotland it was a super highway. (I learned > this in a history of Ireland in the 1500s) So of course people on one side > were a lot like the guys on the other side -- and thought little of which > side it was they lived on today. > > In a eclesiastical history in County Down there is the story of two Kellys > (I got Kellys from Co. Down) who had a conversation around 1650, if memory > doesn't fail me. The one was a settler and the other a local Irish fella, > both Kellys. The settler from Galloway said that his family had a story that > they'd come from County Down with St. Ninian when he went to Scotland to > convert the Scots (abt 700 AD). The Irish Kelly said that was interesting > because his family had a story that when St. Ninian went over some Kellys > had gone with him. > > So! Is a Kelly of County Down Irish or Scots? The answer is he's whatever > it is he wants to be. Ethnicity isn't genes or even history. > > We couldn't find a researcher in Ireland who was willing to research the > McCamish surname 'back' into history. It's way to easy to make money > retrieving easy to get records from the last 200 years. I finally went to > Salt Lake. The library has a wonderful collection of parish histories and > other books. Microfilm I can order! It also has published, indexed, copies > of the Parliamentary Papers relating to Ireland back into the reign of Queen > Lizzy. These contain the names of many ordinary Irishmen, of course badly > spelled. I was able to ID a number of McCamishes or possible McC's, > including one who lived in central Ulster and was implicated in the Rising > in 1641 (or 2, I forget). The origins of the McComish clan can be traced > through them. Also apparently a McCormick from the Armagh area (as I recall) > went to the south and was involved in the Armada -- financing ships to > invade England. So there should be a genetic trail unless the English found > all his descendants.... Fascinati! > ng story -- begs to be turned into a novel! All kinds of interesting > things were in those books, some of which might be out of copyright and in > google books. Alas, most ofl these names were patrynomics and not surnames. > > I once 'met' a man on the INternet who was able to trace his Campbells back > from Ireland to Scotland in the 1500s. They were with the McDonalds too, and > apparently Queen Lizzie had spies among them who wrote home. These papers > can be a wealth of information. She did have a good spy network, she did. In > fact, a lot of what we know about Irish clans in Ulster before the > Plantation comes from letters composed by a local man who rode about and > collected it. It's published in Hanna "The Scotch Irish", which can be found > in many places, including free in Ancestry. > > However this is all that bad word -- research. The thing we hoped DNA > genealogy would let us avoid. Alas, no. > > There was also the fella whose surname was MELVILLE. Post Famine migrants. > An expensive researcher in Salt Lake couldn't find them in the 1880 census > and didn't do Irish genealogy, but did tell him it was impossible to do > (while providing the marriage record in the USA which identified the county > of origin in Ireland and the names of the parents -- the Irish genealogical > pot of gold). I checked my Irish surname books and learned it was MULVIHILL. > Found them with no trouble at all in 1880 census. Also found them in > Limerick, living on the road to Kerry. Not surprisingly, NOT related to the > Mulvihills who live in the estuary of the River Shannon. Nope, they have a > private marker shared with the Kerry Mulvihills. They're Scots Galloglass, > not Irish (but we're not telling anybody <grin>). A surname book is > critical. > > L inda Merle > > >Linda, > > >Thank you, I enjoyed reading your report, and I can only guess as to how > >much time and effort you have invested in getting that far with it, as I > am > >now beginning to appreciate. > > >I am a Morrison whose family traces back to the late 18th century in > County > >Armagh, but until recently I had simply assumed that my family had > >originated somewhere in Scotland. After all, Morrison is a Scottish name, > >right? But no! My DNA evidence now clearly points to Ireland, and I have > >discovered an ancient Irish Morrison family, too, complete with many > >different name spellings, although I have not been able to find any > >connection between my name and the historical name. Too bad that names do > >not have DNA! > > >Doug > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Doug, Our 'family history' tends to conform to our ethnic identity (or our ancestors' <grin>) as we tend to lose details that could cause the neighbors to raise eyebrows about us, or worse. This is especially so in Ireland. I always, always check a surname book, first thing. For Ulster, there's Bell's book, variously named "Book of Ulster Surnames", as well as sometimes Scotch-Irish, if memory doesn't fail me. By 'Scotch-Irish" I believe he meant 'maybe Scots, maybe Irish". Whatever title you find it under, it seems to be the same book, an inexpensive paperback. Rule number 1 of using this book is USE THE INDEX. That's because if you look up your surname, you might not find it because it is under another name. Or there are additional treatments under other names. And so it can lead you to other names your ancestors might have used. Surnames in Ulster are very very recent and while many were proud of their clan -- a surname was just something the English pegged on you so they could find you to tax you, imprison you, or other unpleasantries. You often had two versions: one for 'them' and one by which your friends knew you. THis continued till 1900, says this book, but I suspect it's still going on. Morrison --197 -- he says in Ulster it could be of English, Scots or Irish origin. He gives a Donegal origin in a learned sept of O Muirgheasain (from muirgheas or sea valour), erenaghs of Clanmonay in Inishowen. To me this is very interesting because we have had DNA matches with the McCamishes on Inishowen. It has sparked a fantasy of them moving eastward with the advancing O'Neills, over the centuries. Also according to one story I heard, with the O'Donnells 'took over' Inishowen, their cousins all left but for one clan, which stayed on near Moville, and they later took the surname McCormick. I haven't located a McCormick of this origin to compare with my McC's. Anyway, Bell gives a trail of anglicizations like O'Mrisane. Which gave rise to Bryson in Co. Derry (and Brice and Bryce, also used in Donegal for Breslin). Then it gets interesting: a branch of the Donegal Morrisons migrated at some point to Lewis and Harris in the Scottish Isles, where they became bards to the MacLeods of Dunvegan. Their chief had a seat at Habost Ness in Lewis and was hereditary judge for the island. Besides these guys, there were other Scottish septs: two of Clan Buchanan that descend from illegitimate sons named Maurice. So if you think Morrison is only a Scots surname, it means you haven't checked this book. He compiled it from a number of other sources -- you can check all them instead, but it takes longer <grin>. Then to make it more confusing, our ancestors actually were not so concerned as we sometimes think about a man's origins. So if he married a gal in the community and adopted her religion, whatever that might be, they accepted him. There are many clearly Irish surnames among the early Presbyterians in western Pennsylvania. These names tell us right where they came from: the North coast! So it's handy that they were not. Finally, it wasn't till around 1600 or so that Scots Gaelic is recognized by the linguists I've read as a language separate from Irish. As late as 1700 many of the Presbyterians in the Bushmills area of Antrim couldn't speak English (from book on Presbyterians and the Irish language). They were one big happy family, all speaking the same language and part of the same Gaelic culture. When my Andersons came with the McDonalds circa 1550, they spoke a common language with the locals. Of course the army was a might short on women, but it wasn't hard to find an Irish girl to marry. To assume a man was ethnically Scots because his Y chromo might be, might be a little incorrect <grin>. Especially in the sea kingdom! We see the ocean as a barrier -- but to the people in Ulster and western Scotland it was a super highway. (I learned this in a history of Ireland in the 1500s) So of course people on one side were a lot like the guys on the other side -- and thought little of which side it was they lived on today. In a eclesiastical history in County Down there is the story of two Kellys (I got Kellys from Co. Down) who had a conversation around 1650, if memory doesn't fail me. The one was a settler and the other a local Irish fella, both Kellys. The settler from Galloway said that his family had a story that they'd come from County Down with St. Ninian when he went to Scotland to convert the Scots (abt 700 AD). The Irish Kelly said that was interesting because his family had a story that when St. Ninian went over some Kellys had gone with him. So! Is a Kelly of County Down Irish or Scots? The answer is he's whatever it is he wants to be. Ethnicity isn't genes or even history. We couldn't find a researcher in Ireland who was willing to research the McCamish surname 'back' into history. It's way to easy to make money retrieving easy to get records from the last 200 years. I finally went to Salt Lake. The library has a wonderful collection of parish histories and other books. Microfilm I can order! It also has published, indexed, copies of the Parliamentary Papers relating to Ireland back into the reign of Queen Lizzy. These contain the names of many ordinary Irishmen, of course badly spelled. I was able to ID a number of McCamishes or possible McC's, including one who lived in central Ulster and was implicated in the Rising in 1641 (or 2, I forget). The origins of the McComish clan can be traced through them. Also apparently a McCormick from the Armagh area (as I recall) went to the south and was involved in the Armada -- financing ships to invade England. So there should be a genetic trail unless the English found all his descendants.... Fascinating story -- begs to be turned into a novel! All kinds of interesting things were in those books, some of which might be out of copyright and in google books. Alas, most ofl these names were patrynomics and not surnames. I once 'met' a man on the INternet who was able to trace his Campbells back from Ireland to Scotland in the 1500s. They were with the McDonalds too, and apparently Queen Lizzie had spies among them who wrote home. These papers can be a wealth of information. She did have a good spy network, she did. In fact, a lot of what we know about Irish clans in Ulster before the Plantation comes from letters composed by a local man who rode about and collected it. It's published in Hanna "The Scotch Irish", which can be found in many places, including free in Ancestry. However this is all that bad word -- research. The thing we hoped DNA genealogy would let us avoid. Alas, no. There was also the fella whose surname was MELVILLE. Post Famine migrants. An expensive researcher in Salt Lake couldn't find them in the 1880 census and didn't do Irish genealogy, but did tell him it was impossible to do (while providing the marriage record in the USA which identified the county of origin in Ireland and the names of the parents -- the Irish genealogical pot of gold). I checked my Irish surname books and learned it was MULVIHILL. Found them with no trouble at all in 1880 census. Also found them in Limerick, living on the road to Kerry. Not surprisingly, NOT related to the Mulvihills who live in the estuary of the River Shannon. Nope, they have a private marker shared with the Kerry Mulvihills. They're Scots Galloglass, not Irish (but we're not telling anybody <grin>). A surname book is critical. L inda Merle >Linda, >Thank you, I enjoyed reading your report, and I can only guess as to how >much time and effort you have invested in getting that far with it, as I am >now beginning to appreciate. >I am a Morrison whose family traces back to the late 18th century in County >Armagh, but until recently I had simply assumed that my family had >originated somewhere in Scotland. After all, Morrison is a Scottish name, >right? But no! My DNA evidence now clearly points to Ireland, and I have >discovered an ancient Irish Morrison family, too, complete with many >different name spellings, although I have not been able to find any >connection between my name and the historical name. Too bad that names do >not have DNA! >Doug

I just posted a 111 McGee utility comparison. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility111.html_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility111.html) The modal was generated by the McGee utility. I haven't had time to check the modal for accuracy beyond 37 markers. There are some quirks to this new FTDNA 111 marker McGee utility. It uses the method for displaying multi-part markers now used by FTDNA, ie, in one cell with values separated by dashes. If you want to try this yourself make sure you do the same or it will not work. The total number of markers is 102. To get the kit numbers and surnames to appear I had to check ID columns = all non data and data column = 3. Off modal matches are highlighted by the utility. It's still listed as a beta version. John

In a message dated 8/11/2011 6:20:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, lmerle@comcast.net writes: Maybe some of this info will shed light on the Milligans, etc. That's interesting, Linda. I thought I recognized the McCamish name from your work. I think the Millikins/Milligans think they are Scots though transplanted to Ireland from Galloway. John

Linda, Thank you, I enjoyed reading your report, and I can only guess as to how much time and effort you have invested in getting that far with it, as I am now beginning to appreciate. I am a Morrison whose family traces back to the late 18th century in County Armagh, but until recently I had simply assumed that my family had originated somewhere in Scotland. After all, Morrison is a Scottish name, right? But no! My DNA evidence now clearly points to Ireland, and I have discovered an ancient Irish Morrison family, too, complete with many different name spellings, although I have not been able to find any connection between my name and the historical name. Too bad that names do not have DNA! Doug On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 7:19 AM, <lmerle@comcast.net> wrote: > Hi John, > > >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:06:23 -0400 (EDT) > >From: Lochlan@aol.com > >Subject: [R-M222] Milligans, Johnsons, Jordans, McCamish > >'The Milligans, Johnsons, Jordans and McCamish have an interesting cluster > within M222. > > >_http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility.html_ > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility.html) > > >John > > The McCamish surname clusters in Derry and southern Tyrone. An early hit in > the early 1600 was in the Derry Liberties (Murtagh McC fined for not showing > up for jury duty). Many of the early spellings are so confusing that it is > impossible to tell if the name will someday become McCormick or McCarmach or > McCamish. In the late 1700s the surname emerges in the barony of Dungannon, > clustering (where we can tell) in townlands that were in the Archdiocese > estate. The church was not expected to rent only to British at the time of > Plantation (or any time)_. Hence the various churchland estates were home to > many, many Irish displaced by settlers from civil estates. Living on one > suggests immediately Irish origin to me -- and I've found this often to be > true. Some of these townlands were lent out on long leases to local noblemen > so it might not be obvious at first that they were churchlands . > > Other details also suggested they were Irish: ie no manic attachment to > Presbyterianism as part of an ethnic identity. The findable ones were of > various religious persuasions. Many converted to some form of Protestantism > BCR (Before Church Records). Not in Convert Rolls, etc (so 'common' or > unlanded Irish). In early 1800s evidence that even some of the Protestants > spoke Irish (stories of Irish speaking saving them in Belfast riots). > > When they moved to Belfast, became confused with the McComish clan from > County Down, also M222, but not related. By the late 1700s they were small > tradesmen, often carpenters. > > Some moved to the new world by 1751 (Pennsylvania) -- confirmed related via > DNA. This particular man's ancestor was one of three brothers who migrated > about 1770 to Virginia, then Tennessee. Several men descended from these > fellas have tested (so we got the right DNA sig). Matches an Australian with > a clear paper trail back to an emigrant from a Tyrone village. > > The family has tended to believe they were settlers, descendants of Clann > Gunn, in NE Scotland. But very very little M222 'up there', for starters. > Some McGregors and Stuarts used "McCamish" in Scotland in the 1600s and > 1700s, though by the time that we have Scottish censuses, all McCamishes in > these censuses are tracable to Ireland and the Tyrone McCamish, so I don't > think it 'took' as a surname in Scotland. > > However both McCamish and McComish were used in early Mann. I've not DNA > tested any of the Manx -- largely because I haven't found any alive! However > it has seemed to me, though I'm not an expert, that the Tyrone McCamish are > probably local boys and not Manx transplants because their DNA is similar to > the DNA of the central Ulster Irish. > > Maybe some of this info will shed light on the Milligans, etc. > > Linda Merle > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi John, >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:06:23 -0400 (EDT) >From: Lochlan@aol.com >Subject: [R-M222] Milligans, Johnsons, Jordans, McCamish >'The Milligans, Johnsons, Jordans and McCamish have an interesting cluster within M222. >_http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility.html_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility.html) >John The McCamish surname clusters in Derry and southern Tyrone. An early hit in the early 1600 was in the Derry Liberties (Murtagh McC fined for not showing up for jury duty). Many of the early spellings are so confusing that it is impossible to tell if the name will someday become McCormick or McCarmach or McCamish. In the late 1700s the surname emerges in the barony of Dungannon, clustering (where we can tell) in townlands that were in the Archdiocese estate. The church was not expected to rent only to British at the time of Plantation (or any time)_. Hence the various churchland estates were home to many, many Irish displaced by settlers from civil estates. Living on one suggests immediately Irish origin to me -- and I've found this often to be true. Some of these townlands were lent out on long leases to local noblemen so it might not be obvious at first that they were churchlands . Other details also suggested they were Irish: ie no manic attachment to Presbyterianism as part of an ethnic identity. The findable ones were of various religious persuasions. Many converted to some form of Protestantism BCR (Before Church Records). Not in Convert Rolls, etc (so 'common' or unlanded Irish). In early 1800s evidence that even some of the Protestants spoke Irish (stories of Irish speaking saving them in Belfast riots). When they moved to Belfast, became confused with the McComish clan from County Down, also M222, but not related. By the late 1700s they were small tradesmen, often carpenters. Some moved to the new world by 1751 (Pennsylvania) -- confirmed related via DNA. This particular man's ancestor was one of three brothers who migrated about 1770 to Virginia, then Tennessee. Several men descended from these fellas have tested (so we got the right DNA sig). Matches an Australian with a clear paper trail back to an emigrant from a Tyrone village. The family has tended to believe they were settlers, descendants of Clann Gunn, in NE Scotland. But very very little M222 'up there', for starters. Some McGregors and Stuarts used "McCamish" in Scotland in the 1600s and 1700s, though by the time that we have Scottish censuses, all McCamishes in these censuses are tracable to Ireland and the Tyrone McCamish, so I don't think it 'took' as a surname in Scotland. However both McCamish and McComish were used in early Mann. I've not DNA tested any of the Manx -- largely because I haven't found any alive! However it has seemed to me, though I'm not an expert, that the Tyrone McCamish are probably local boys and not Manx transplants because their DNA is similar to the DNA of the central Ulster Irish. Maybe some of this info will shed light on the Milligans, etc. Linda Merle

And McAniich, Cole, McKinney, Hunter, Caughorne, Akins, Taylor, Lawson. _file:///C:/R1b1c7/Duncan.html_ (file:///C:/R1b1c7/Duncan.html) John

'The Milligans, Johnsons, Jordans and McCamish have an interesting cluster within M222. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility.html_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/yutility.html) John

In a message dated 8/9/2011 5:51:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: I've had a look at the Doherty/Daugherty 68-111 marker set (I have 5 on record). They seem to be modal at 14 for DYS441 (compared to 13 for M222). Unfortunately that's the only marker in the 68-111 set that may give a further clue. I think it costs around $9 to have a single marker tested, so it may be an idea to have one or two McLaughlins tested for just that one marker. Some upgrades could be worthwhile. I don't have much influence over the McLaughlins in our project though. I still haven't been able to convince a lot of budge from 12 markers. Just to make things more confusing I added a lot of O Cathain DNA to the chart. These samples came from Barra McCain's site and an FTDNA site on O'Kanes. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/Mcldoh.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/Mcldoh.htm) The O Cathains were probably the closest relatives to the McLaughlins within the Cenel Eoghain yet their DNA bears no resemblance. In fact the McLaughlins are closer to the Dohertys, a more distant connection by 300 years or so. A couple of possibilities occur to me. Perhaps the traditional genealogies aren't right. That wouldn't surprise me much. Of the surnames under discussion, only the McLaughlins have a pedigree that can be verified at all in the annals. The early lines of the Cenel Conaill are verifiable, but they trace the line of two former chieftains, the O Muldoraidhs and O Concannains, not the O'Donnells and O'Dohertys. The O'Donnells, O'Dohertys and O Cathains just pop up out of no where in the 1100-1200s. The story goes that the three sons of Niall, Owen, Conall gulban and Enna, moved north to Donegal sometime during or after their father's reign (c. 400-450). Presumably they took followers with them, unrelated mercenaries or even men of their own tribe. Perhaps making all these later chieftains descended from Owen or Conal gulban (the third son Enna left few or no descendants) was simply a genealogical convenience. Or it could be that DNA as we know it now is simply not capable of making such distinctions in the time period under discussion. There is a missing piece of this equation: O'Donnell DNA. There is little to be found and what is in the databases varies all over the place. There is little or no obvious connection to their kinsmen the O'Dohertys. If I didn't know better I would conclude from DNA that the Dohertys and McLaughlins shared a close descent but the O Cathains did not. John

I've had a look at the Doherty/Daugherty 68-111 marker set (I have 5 on record). They seem to be modal at 14 for DYS441 (compared to 13 for M222). Unfortunately that's the only marker in the 68-111 set that may give a further clue. I think it costs around $9 to have a single marker tested, so it may be an idea to have one or two McLaughlins tested for just that one marker. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 09 August 2011 10:20 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] McLaughlins and Dohertys I forgot to add the link: _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/Mcldoh.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/Mcldoh.htm) John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message