Susan, Oh I didn't mean to suggest that they were being excluded in any way. However all the early press on this haplogroup and it's associated SNP mentions the O'Neill family and their descendants, and Northern Ireland and Scotland, so people with no ancestry from these areas might feel that this project doesn't apply to them at all. I think at the very least that the current map on the project page should state that it just represent the area of greatest currently known concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, and/or any of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a much more extensive area of coverage. For instance there was a suggestion on the R-L21 Project some months back that parts of Germany may be up to 5% M222+, if that's true it changes everything! I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the Belgae tribes of the Rhine... On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > Thank you, Doug, it's nice to be complimented for sharing a bit of > reality and sanity. > > Truly, From this person whose descendant families on 8 sides now have > gone through the rigors of DNA testing, as a McConnaughey who's > ancestors all were all Celtic, not an Anglo or Saxon or Scandinavian in > the lot -- a full born blue eyed blonde haired American Celtic MUTT, > Marie, I thought we all ventured into these activities to learn some > truths and have intelligent discussions regarding theories and > possibilities, and have a bit of fun rather than be emotionally > territorial about what we think we may know and resort to name calling > and the like. > > From some of the stuff I 've read on this board, there truly are some > very interesting and intelligent people who contribute from time to > time. Is not one as entitled to his/her own opinions as the next > whether or not anyone or everyone agrees? > > Paul, I don't know why either the representation is not broader. I > haven't been in this group long enough to know, but I actually applied > to join, and I'm wondering if those others who also fall into M222 > either do not know about the group or don't care to join. I agree with > your premise that it would be good to have broad representation. > > I also belong to the Ireland YDNA project, and there are numerous > individuals in that project who fit the M222 profile who seem to be > naming environs other than Ulster or Scotland. Most of these projects > are elective, so I'm thinking that none are being excluded. > > Hope everyone has a great eve. Susan > > > > On 8/19/2011 10:54 AM, tuulen wrote: > > Hi, Susan, > > > > Great story, and thank you for writing it! > > > > I am M222 and have a surname which could be either Irish or Scottish, > > and so I fit right into that story, too. > > > > Doug > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Susan Hedeen > > <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net>> wrote: > > > > and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended > > brain is > > as the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written word-- as > > far as > > keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in handy at > > times like this. > > > > Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic > > signature. > > We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti of Gaul > > > > Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the > > Galatians -- > > the famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after attempting to > > conquer Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. > > > > Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends involving > these > > Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was tin, and > tin > > mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What > > was the > > best mode of transport? Boat. > > > > These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some > > literature had some fairly vast trade routes among themselves that > > extended in time also previous to the Roman conquest. > > > > M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; however > at > > this juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the testing pool > > reveals the highest concentration from tested subjects who either yet > > reside in those environs or claim those environs as their > genealogical > > point of origin -- that place of their anecdotal family stories -- > > that > > place from which their oldest know ancestor came from. > > > > There are remnants of it, however coming from those who claim other > > environs as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and more > also > > places where these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade routes. > > > > What do people do at times when extinction seems a possibility? They > > MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they > > settle > > provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do they do > when > > the environs they migrate to become over populated and sustaining the > > increased population becomes difficult? A portion of the population > > breaks off and MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? Over > > time; > > however in the short term they help one another in Trade. > > > > These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. Where is > the > > last bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. > > Where yet > > are the highest concentrations? The more remote of those locations. > > > > Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't think so, > but > > it flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest > > previous > > to that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and > > back and > > forth. Deciding that question is like the chicken and the egg. Even > > those tribes said to be indigenous migrated in, but because they were > > there when the next bunch of migrants marched in, they then became > > indigenous. > > > > Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than > > anywhere > > else statistically? Think about the migration stories again. We > know > > that they migrated back and forth between Ireland and Scotland in > > addition to raiding, trading wives and all the like in all the > various > > lore and legends. Where was the last place the Scots who bailed > > out to > > at the time the English were dissolving the clans? They went to > > Ulster. Where did the go after that? The American Colonies, Canada, > > Australia, New Zealand -- and some stayed in Ulster along side of > > their > > ancient ancestral tribes long forgotten as such. > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com> with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you, Doug, it's nice to be complimented for sharing a bit of reality and sanity. Truly, From this person whose descendant families on 8 sides now have gone through the rigors of DNA testing, as a McConnaughey who's ancestors all were all Celtic, not an Anglo or Saxon or Scandinavian in the lot -- a full born blue eyed blonde haired American Celtic MUTT, Marie, I thought we all ventured into these activities to learn some truths and have intelligent discussions regarding theories and possibilities, and have a bit of fun rather than be emotionally territorial about what we think we may know and resort to name calling and the like. From some of the stuff I 've read on this board, there truly are some very interesting and intelligent people who contribute from time to time. Is not one as entitled to his/her own opinions as the next whether or not anyone or everyone agrees? Paul, I don't know why either the representation is not broader. I haven't been in this group long enough to know, but I actually applied to join, and I'm wondering if those others who also fall into M222 either do not know about the group or don't care to join. I agree with your premise that it would be good to have broad representation. I also belong to the Ireland YDNA project, and there are numerous individuals in that project who fit the M222 profile who seem to be naming environs other than Ulster or Scotland. Most of these projects are elective, so I'm thinking that none are being excluded. Hope everyone has a great eve. Susan On 8/19/2011 10:54 AM, tuulen wrote: > Hi, Susan, > > Great story, and thank you for writing it! > > I am M222 and have a surname which could be either Irish or Scottish, > and so I fit right into that story, too. > > Doug > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Susan Hedeen > <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net>> wrote: > > and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended > brain is > as the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written word-- as > far as > keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in handy at > times like this. > > Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic > signature. > We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti of Gaul > > Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the > Galatians -- > the famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after attempting to > conquer Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. > > Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends involving these > Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was tin, and tin > mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What > was the > best mode of transport? Boat. > > These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some > literature had some fairly vast trade routes among themselves that > extended in time also previous to the Roman conquest. > > M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; however at > this juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the testing pool > reveals the highest concentration from tested subjects who either yet > reside in those environs or claim those environs as their genealogical > point of origin -- that place of their anecdotal family stories -- > that > place from which their oldest know ancestor came from. > > There are remnants of it, however coming from those who claim other > environs as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and more also > places where these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade routes. > > What do people do at times when extinction seems a possibility? They > MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they > settle > provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do they do when > the environs they migrate to become over populated and sustaining the > increased population becomes difficult? A portion of the population > breaks off and MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? Over > time; > however in the short term they help one another in Trade. > > These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. Where is the > last bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. > Where yet > are the highest concentrations? The more remote of those locations. > > Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't think so, but > it flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest > previous > to that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and > back and > forth. Deciding that question is like the chicken and the egg. Even > those tribes said to be indigenous migrated in, but because they were > there when the next bunch of migrants marched in, they then became > indigenous. > > Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than > anywhere > else statistically? Think about the migration stories again. We know > that they migrated back and forth between Ireland and Scotland in > addition to raiding, trading wives and all the like in all the various > lore and legends. Where was the last place the Scots who bailed > out to > at the time the English were dissolving the clans? They went to > Ulster. Where did the go after that? The American Colonies, Canada, > Australia, New Zealand -- and some stayed in Ulster along side of > their > ancient ancestral tribes long forgotten as such. > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com> with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > the message > >

At 02:23 AM 8/19/2011, you wrote: >I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones > and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal. This is an interesting notion but perhaps too incomplete to go very far with. OK we have the same DNA in Donegal and at a much lower rate in Lowland Scotland. What about NW Wales, and NW Gaul, and south of the Baltic and wherever else these Veni people were supposed to be? The equivalents of Con in Hebrew would be Caleb. > >_http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm_ >(http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm) > >This writer definitely sees a connection between the Venicones of the >eastern lowlands of Scotland and the Venicnii of NW Ireland (Donegal). He >further believes the names are derived from the Veneti of Gaul. The author >gives a completely different interpretation of the name from other >writers I've > seen which deduce the >-cones in Venicones from Cu or hound and Veni from Feni. > >The main reason I've always found this interesting is the fact that M222 is > so prevalent in NW Ireland and especially in Donegal. The names date from > Ptolemy's maps of Ireland and Scotland c. 150 AD. Irish historians tell >us the sons of Niall weren't even in NW Ireland at that date - supposedly >they migrated northward from their base in Connacht during or after the time >of Niall (c. 400-450 AD). But perhaps Irish history isn't accurate. > >I found the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the >possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - >which would >be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people) and >Con (of the hounds). And wondered if that could possibly have something to >do with Conn, the ancestor of the Ui Neill and Connachta in Ireland, the >famous Conn of the Hundred Battles in Irish mythology. If this author is >right than that possibility seems fairly remote. > >But we still are left with the oddity of two probably related tribes in >Ireland and Scotland and the fact that the major hotspot for M222 in Ireland >is found in the old territory of the Venicnii. > >I hesitated to make too much of this previously because until now no major >scholar or site connected the two tribal names. Many over the years had >noticed the similarity but none were willing to venture an opinion on whether > both were the same tribal name. > >The author believes the Veneti, after their defeat in Gaul by the Romans, >could have come to both Scotland and Ireland in ships. > >"One could easily postulate that the survivors of the Roman conquest of the > Veneti in Gaul climbed into their boats and settled in Fife and Donnegal. >And the rebuilt tribe that occupied Fife continued the fight." > >According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as > Verturiones (Fortriu), > >"Once beaten in Fife by the renewed Roman attack on them, some of them >apparently joined the Roman side, and were later rewarded with the >Deceangli/Gangani territory in what is now north-west Wales, which >the new owners >promptly named after their tribe." > >"circa 390 - At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen > (Old King Cole - see the Kings of Northern Britain), a branch of Romanised > Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) >kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory is >given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend it." > >He ends with: > >"One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to > Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and > Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and >northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion." > > > >John > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > >http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 6391 (20110819) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com

How does this explain M222+ in southern Ireland? I ask for take my surname as an example: According to book "Surnames of Ireland" by MacLysaght, then Herald of Ireland, Irish Morgans have four origins: O Murchadhain of Ui Failge (theoretically not M222; with one DNA result from the area - so DNA supports them as being not M222) O Murchadhain of Conmacne (theoretically not M222; with one DNA result from the area - so DNA supports them as being not M222) O Muireagain of Arighalla (theoretically not M222; with many DNA result from the area - so DNA supports them as being not M222) O Muireagain of Southern Ui Neill (theoretically M222; with no DNA result from the area - the Normans took their land and displaced them. Is the M222+ Morgan from Co. Clare such a displaced member.) The O Muireagain of Southern Ui Neill are identified members of Cenel Tadgain a branch of Cenel Maine of counties Longford and Westmeath. Cenel Tadgain includes the Foxes of Kilcoursey, O'Cathalan and many other families. It has been questionable whether Cenel Tadgain where M222+, for the leading branch (in later medieval period) where the Foxes of Kilcoursey and there had been no M222+ Foxes until now. This and other Southern Ui Neill results makes me believe that the Southern Ui Neill are M222+ and that results of Tir Connaill origin are skewed due to survival-bias (i.e. no norman settlement impeding the population growth and expansion of the local families). What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern Ui Neill power) were tested for M222 in the Trinity report? > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:05:55 +0200 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > From: britam@netvision.net.il > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones > > At 02:23 AM 8/19/2011, you wrote: > >I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones > > and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal. > > This is an interesting notion but perhaps too incomplete to go very far with. > OK we have the same DNA in Donegal and at a much lower rate in > Lowland Scotland. > > What about NW Wales, and NW Gaul, and south of the Baltic and > wherever else these Veni people were supposed to be? > > The equivalents of Con in Hebrew would be Caleb. >

John, A story of people fleeing wars with the Romans and taking to ships and sailing up the Irish Sea, then settling in Ireland and Scotland is exactly what the chronicles describe the Picts (Cruitin aka Cruitne) as doing. But the Picts have tentatively been identified as the Pictones of the Bay of Biscay - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictones - whose territory was just South of the Veneti. In terms of the ethmyology of the Venicones in the Veneti people from Southern Armorica (Brittany later), and their possible origin in the area of the Vistula and Oder, all I can say is that this theory can be tested. The descendants of the Veneti are the Wends (aka Sorbs) of Germany - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends. Their Y-DNA is predominantly R1a1a. The Veneti name also survives in the name of Venice, named after some who settled in Northern Italy. Cheers, Paul On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 8:23 PM, <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones > and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal. > > _http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm_ > (http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm) > > This writer definitely sees a connection between the Venicones of the > eastern lowlands of Scotland and the Venicnii of NW Ireland (Donegal). He > further believes the names are derived from the Veneti of Gaul. The author > gives a completely different interpretation of the name from other writers > I've > seen which deduce the > -cones in Venicones from Cu or hound and Veni from Feni. > > The main reason I've always found this interesting is the fact that M222 is > so prevalent in NW Ireland and especially in Donegal. The names date from > Ptolemy's maps of Ireland and Scotland c. 150 AD. Irish historians tell > us the sons of Niall weren't even in NW Ireland at that date - supposedly > they migrated northward from their base in Connacht during or after the > time > of Niall (c. 400-450 AD). But perhaps Irish history isn't accurate. > > I found the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the > possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which > would > be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people) and > Con (of the hounds). And wondered if that could possibly have something > to > do with Conn, the ancestor of the Ui Neill and Connachta in Ireland, the > famous Conn of the Hundred Battles in Irish mythology. If this author is > right than that possibility seems fairly remote. > > But we still are left with the oddity of two probably related tribes in > Ireland and Scotland and the fact that the major hotspot for M222 in > Ireland > is found in the old territory of the Venicnii. > > I hesitated to make too much of this previously because until now no major > scholar or site connected the two tribal names. Many over the years had > noticed the similarity but none were willing to venture an opinion on > whether > both were the same tribal name. > > The author believes the Veneti, after their defeat in Gaul by the Romans, > could have come to both Scotland and Ireland in ships. > > "One could easily postulate that the survivors of the Roman conquest of the > Veneti in Gaul climbed into their boats and settled in Fife and Donnegal. > And the rebuilt tribe that occupied Fife continued the fight." > > According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as > Verturiones (Fortriu), > > "Once beaten in Fife by the renewed Roman attack on them, some of them > apparently joined the Roman side, and were later rewarded with the > Deceangli/Gangani territory in what is now north-west Wales, which the new > owners > promptly named after their tribe." > > "circa 390 - At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen > (Old King Cole - see the Kings of Northern Britain), a branch of Romanised > Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) > kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory > is > given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend > it." > > He ends with: > > "One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to > Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and > Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and > northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion." > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Does anyone know how much each era contributes to one's Haplogroup?For instance, how much does whether one is M222+ is dependant on who their ancestors were, for instance, before 0 AD, from then to 500AD, then to 1,000 AD, to 1,500, to 2,000 ?It seems to me that anyone with the "right" background could show up anywhere, become whatever folks were there, and propogate and populate, and show M22+ there?It could be Southern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Norway, France....Just askin. Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:34:28 +0000 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones > > > How does this explain M222+ in southern Ireland? > > I ask for take my surname as an example: According to book "Surnames of Ireland" by MacLysaght, then Herald of Ireland, Irish Morgans have four origins: > > O Murchadhain of Ui Failge (theoretically not M222; with one DNA result from the area - so DNA supports them as being not M222) > O Murchadhain of Conmacne (theoretically not M222; with one DNA result from the area - so DNA supports them as being not M222) > O Muireagain of Arighalla (theoretically not M222; with many DNA result from the area - so DNA supports them as being not M222) > O Muireagain of Southern Ui Neill (theoretically M222; with no DNA result from the area - the Normans took their land and displaced them. Is the M222+ Morgan from Co. Clare such a displaced member.) > > The O Muireagain of Southern Ui Neill are identified members of Cenel Tadgain a branch of Cenel Maine of counties Longford and Westmeath. Cenel Tadgain includes the Foxes of Kilcoursey, O'Cathalan and many other families. It has been questionable whether Cenel Tadgain where M222+, for the leading branch (in later medieval period) where the Foxes of Kilcoursey and there had been no M222+ Foxes until now. This and other Southern Ui Neill results makes me believe that the Southern Ui Neill are M222+ and that results of Tir Connaill origin are skewed due to survival-bias (i.e. no norman settlement impeding the population growth and expansion of the local families). > > What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern Ui Neill power) were tested for M222 in the Trinity report? > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:05:55 +0200 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > From: britam@netvision.net.il > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones > > > > At 02:23 AM 8/19/2011, you wrote: > > >I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones > > > and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal. > > > > This is an interesting notion but perhaps too incomplete to go very far with. > > OK we have the same DNA in Donegal and at a much lower rate in > > Lowland Scotland. > > > > What about NW Wales, and NW Gaul, and south of the Baltic and > > wherever else these Veni people were supposed to be? > > > > The equivalents of Con in Hebrew would be Caleb. > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

What has always worried me about this project is that there has never been a serious attempt to recruit Southern Irish, English, Welsh and Continental recruits - though I could be wrong on this. I have mentioned before that: 1. I am the most distant M222+ member from the modal - which could make me either nearer the source, or a parallel branch of M222 2. My closest matches are Dunn(s) and there is a huge Dunn project, and many seem to be M222+, yet almost are memberst - there are only 4 Dunn(e)s in the M222 Project 3. My next closest matches are Daltons and other names from the Kilkenny, Laois, Tipperary area - the former Ossory (aka Osraighe) - there is only 1 Dalton in the M222 Project 4. Next closest are the Breifne clans, especially O'Reilly (aka Riley) - there are only 4 Reilly/Rileys in the M222 Project. The original Trinity study had a gradient map, which had max concentration in the Donegal/Tyrone area, but a second hotspot in the Breifne area, and a tertiary hotspot in the Laois area, but M222+ is found as far South as Kerry, the only areas it's not usually found in, are exactly those areas that were heavily planted (aka colonized), like the Pale (Dublin, Kildare, Meath, Wicklow), and the South East. If we truly want to know where M222 originated, then we need to step out of Northern Ireland and Lowland Scotland, which are areas of expansion of the haplogroup, not necessarily origin - this is especially true for the O'Doherty, Ewing and McLoughlin clans and others, which seem to be only 800-1,000 years old. Cheers, Paul On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Marie Kerr <mkerr.shamrock@comcast.net>wrote: > What a great story/theory. It amuses me that certain members of the group > are insistent on a Scottish origin (even some who are known to have a > "Heinz 57" background); some can't bear the thought of an Irish origin. As > one of the members who knows exactly where my grandparents came from (one > of > those remote end points in Ireland: Rathlacken in County Mayo), I still > believe the ultimate source of M222 has yet to be determined. We simply > don't have enough samples. I think the Niall story excited a group of > Irish/Scottish Americans who may have skewed the results. Only time and a > larger test pool will tell. > > Marie Golden Kerr (on behalf of James J. Golden) > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 9:28 AM > To: Lochlan@aol.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend > > and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended brain is as > the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written word-- as far as > keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in handy at times > like this. > > Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic signature. > We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti of Gaul > > Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the Galatians -- > the > famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after attempting to conquer > Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. > > Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends involving these > Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was tin, and tin > mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What was the > best > mode of transport? Boat. > > These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some literature > had some fairly vast trade routes among themselves that extended in time > also previous to the Roman conquest. > > M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; however at this > juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the testing pool reveals > the > highest concentration from tested subjects who either yet reside in those > environs or claim those environs as their genealogical point of origin -- > that place of their anecdotal family stories -- that place from which their > oldest know ancestor came from. > > There are remnants of it, however coming from those who claim other > environs > as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and more also places where > these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade routes. > > What do people do at times when extinction seems a possibility? They > MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they settle > provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do they do when the > environs they migrate to become over populated and sustaining the increased > population becomes difficult? A portion of the population breaks off and > MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? Over time; however in the > short term they help one another in Trade. > > These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. Where is the last > bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. Where yet are the > highest concentrations? The more remote of those locations. > > Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't think so, but it > flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest previous to > that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and back and forth. > Deciding that question is like the chicken and the egg. Even those tribes > said to be indigenous migrated in, but because they were there when the > next > bunch of migrants marched in, they then became indigenous. > > Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than anywhere > else statistically? Think about the migration stories again. We know that > they migrated back and forth between Ireland and Scotland in addition to > raiding, trading wives and all the like in all the various lore and > legends. > Where was the last place the Scots who bailed out to at the time the > English > were dissolving the clans? They went to Ulster. Where did the go after > that? The American Colonies, Canada, Australia, New Zealand -- and some > stayed in Ulster along side of their ancient ancestral tribes long > forgotten > as such. > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

What a great story/theory. It amuses me that certain members of the group are insistent on a Scottish origin (even some who are known to have a "Heinz 57" background); some can't bear the thought of an Irish origin. As one of the members who knows exactly where my grandparents came from (one of those remote end points in Ireland: Rathlacken in County Mayo), I still believe the ultimate source of M222 has yet to be determined. We simply don't have enough samples. I think the Niall story excited a group of Irish/Scottish Americans who may have skewed the results. Only time and a larger test pool will tell. Marie Golden Kerr (on behalf of James J. Golden) -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 9:28 AM To: Lochlan@aol.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended brain is as the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written word-- as far as keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in handy at times like this. Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic signature. We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti of Gaul Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the Galatians -- the famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after attempting to conquer Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends involving these Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was tin, and tin mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What was the best mode of transport? Boat. These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some literature had some fairly vast trade routes among themselves that extended in time also previous to the Roman conquest. M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; however at this juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the testing pool reveals the highest concentration from tested subjects who either yet reside in those environs or claim those environs as their genealogical point of origin -- that place of their anecdotal family stories -- that place from which their oldest know ancestor came from. There are remnants of it, however coming from those who claim other environs as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and more also places where these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade routes. What do people do at times when extinction seems a possibility? They MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they settle provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do they do when the environs they migrate to become over populated and sustaining the increased population becomes difficult? A portion of the population breaks off and MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? Over time; however in the short term they help one another in Trade. These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. Where is the last bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. Where yet are the highest concentrations? The more remote of those locations. Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't think so, but it flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest previous to that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and back and forth. Deciding that question is like the chicken and the egg. Even those tribes said to be indigenous migrated in, but because they were there when the next bunch of migrants marched in, they then became indigenous. Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than anywhere else statistically? Think about the migration stories again. We know that they migrated back and forth between Ireland and Scotland in addition to raiding, trading wives and all the like in all the various lore and legends. Where was the last place the Scots who bailed out to at the time the English were dissolving the clans? They went to Ulster. Where did the go after that? The American Colonies, Canada, Australia, New Zealand -- and some stayed in Ulster along side of their ancient ancestral tribes long forgotten as such. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A chairde, This may help. Just came across it. http://www.ancientscripts.com/venetic.html Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry

A chairde, You may remember that Indiana Jones recommended V. Gordon Childe's THE DAWN OF EUROPEAN CIVILIZATION while lying on the floor of Sterling Library's main reading room under a motorcycle.  As far as I know, that work's outline of European prehistory is still the accepted standard. According to Childe and others, the Veneti who gave their name to Venice were not Celts but one of the 4 major branches of the Unetician culture, named after an archaeological type-site in what was until recently Czechoslovakia.  If I remember correctly, this Venetic culture and language ceased to exist by about the 2nd century A.D. due to Latinization. Why, then, did the Veneti who gave their name to Venice bear the same name as the Veneti of the Armorican Peninsula?  Maybe coincidence.  Maybe application by the Romans of a name they already knew, like English-speakers using "Dudley Forbes" for Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh and the ridiculous name of "Dingle" for Daingean Uí Chúis / The Fortress of the Ó Cúis Family. Go raibh sé seo cabhrach.  /  Hope this is helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry 

Hi Bernard, I remember from IRELAND BEFORE THE VIKINGS by Gearóid Mac Niocaill that the genealogies of the Cenél Maine are suspect. They might be the eastern remnant of a greater Maine kingdom which predates the rise of the Uí Néill and once may have spanned the Shannon with the Uí Mhaine as the western branch. Possibly, when actual Uí Néill (by blood) forced a wedge of settlement between them (I'm at work now at blanking on the name of that branch), the Uí Mhaine were "adopted" into the pseudo-histories of the Uí Néill story as descended from Maine descendant of Éremón while the Cenél Maine were adopted into the story as descended from Maine son of Niall descendant of Éremón. That's from a modern historian. As you know, Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh was one of Ireland's 2 greatest 17th century historians. He also doubted the genealogies of some of the Uí Néill in Deiscirt (Southern Uí Néill), especially that of the Ó Dálaigh of the Fir Cell of the Cenél Maine. He maintained that all the Fir Cell were Fir Bolg with a bogus Uí Néill pedigree. Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Treibheanna Éireannacha www.irishtribes.com --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> wrote: > From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones > To: "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Date: Friday, August 19, 2011, 10:34 AM > > How does this explain M222+ in southern Ireland? > > I ask for take my surname as an example: According to book > "Surnames of Ireland" by MacLysaght, then Herald of Ireland, > Irish Morgans have four origins: > > O Murchadhain of Ui Failge (theoretically not M222; with > one DNA result from the area - so DNA supports them as being > not M222) > O Murchadhain of Conmacne (theoretically not M222; with one > DNA result from the area - so DNA supports them as being not > M222) > O Muireagain of Arighalla (theoretically not M222; with > many DNA result from the area - so DNA supports them as > being not M222) > O Muireagain of Southern Ui Neill (theoretically M222; with > no DNA result from the area - the Normans took their land > and displaced them. Is the M222+ Morgan from Co. Clare such > a displaced member.) > > The O Muireagain of Southern Ui Neill are identified > members of Cenel Tadgain a branch of Cenel Maine of counties > Longford and Westmeath. Cenel Tadgain includes the Foxes of > Kilcoursey, O'Cathalan and many other families. It has been > questionable whether Cenel Tadgain where M222+, for the > leading branch (in later medieval period) where the Foxes of > Kilcoursey and there had been no M222+ Foxes until now. This > and other Southern Ui Neill results makes me believe that > the Southern Ui Neill are M222+ and that results of Tir > Connaill origin are skewed due to survival-bias (i.e. no > norman settlement impeding the population growth and > expansion of the local families). > > What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern > Ui Neill power) were tested for M222 in the Trinity report? >

Hi, Susan, Great story, and thank you for writing it! I am M222 and have a surname which could be either Irish or Scottish, and so I fit right into that story, too. Doug On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended brain is > as the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written word-- as far as > keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in handy at > times like this. > > Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic signature. > We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti of Gaul > > Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the Galatians -- > the famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after attempting to > conquer Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. > > Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends involving these > Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was tin, and tin > mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What was the > best mode of transport? Boat. > > These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some > literature had some fairly vast trade routes among themselves that > extended in time also previous to the Roman conquest. > > M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; however at > this juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the testing pool > reveals the highest concentration from tested subjects who either yet > reside in those environs or claim those environs as their genealogical > point of origin -- that place of their anecdotal family stories -- that > place from which their oldest know ancestor came from. > > There are remnants of it, however coming from those who claim other > environs as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and more also > places where these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade routes. > > What do people do at times when extinction seems a possibility? They > MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they settle > provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do they do when > the environs they migrate to become over populated and sustaining the > increased population becomes difficult? A portion of the population > breaks off and MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? Over time; > however in the short term they help one another in Trade. > > These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. Where is the > last bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. Where yet > are the highest concentrations? The more remote of those locations. > > Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't think so, but > it flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest previous > to that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and back and > forth. Deciding that question is like the chicken and the egg. Even > those tribes said to be indigenous migrated in, but because they were > there when the next bunch of migrants marched in, they then became > indigenous. > > Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than anywhere > else statistically? Think about the migration stories again. We know > that they migrated back and forth between Ireland and Scotland in > addition to raiding, trading wives and all the like in all the various > lore and legends. Where was the last place the Scots who bailed out to > at the time the English were dissolving the clans? They went to > Ulster. Where did the go after that? The American Colonies, Canada, > Australia, New Zealand -- and some stayed in Ulster along side of their > ancient ancestral tribes long forgotten as such. > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended brain is as the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written word-- as far as keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in handy at times like this. Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic signature. We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti of Gaul Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the Galatians -- the famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after attempting to conquer Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends involving these Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was tin, and tin mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What was the best mode of transport? Boat. These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some literature had some fairly vast trade routes among themselves that extended in time also previous to the Roman conquest. M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; however at this juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the testing pool reveals the highest concentration from tested subjects who either yet reside in those environs or claim those environs as their genealogical point of origin -- that place of their anecdotal family stories -- that place from which their oldest know ancestor came from. There are remnants of it, however coming from those who claim other environs as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and more also places where these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade routes. What do people do at times when extinction seems a possibility? They MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they settle provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do they do when the environs they migrate to become over populated and sustaining the increased population becomes difficult? A portion of the population breaks off and MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? Over time; however in the short term they help one another in Trade. These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. Where is the last bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. Where yet are the highest concentrations? The more remote of those locations. Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't think so, but it flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest previous to that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and back and forth. Deciding that question is like the chicken and the egg. Even those tribes said to be indigenous migrated in, but because they were there when the next bunch of migrants marched in, they then became indigenous. Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than anywhere else statistically? Think about the migration stories again. We know that they migrated back and forth between Ireland and Scotland in addition to raiding, trading wives and all the like in all the various lore and legends. Where was the last place the Scots who bailed out to at the time the English were dissolving the clans? They went to Ulster. Where did the go after that? The American Colonies, Canada, Australia, New Zealand -- and some stayed in Ulster along side of their ancient ancestral tribes long forgotten as such.

Okay I'll really go out on a limb and suggest that Devenny, formerly DeVenny was perhaps DeVeni or " of the Venicones" Scott On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:00 AM, <dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Venicones (Lochlan@aol.com) > 2. Re: Venicones (Don Milligan) > 3. Re: Venicones (Lochlan@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:23:34 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: [R-M222] Venicones > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <2e769.7c9fd71d.3b7f0706@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones > and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal. > > _http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm_ > (http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm) > > This writer definitely sees a connection between the Venicones of the > eastern lowlands of Scotland and the Venicnii of NW Ireland (Donegal). He > further believes the names are derived from the Veneti of Gaul. The author > gives a completely different interpretation of the name from other writers > I've > seen which deduce the > -cones in Venicones from Cu or hound and Veni from Feni. > > The main reason I've always found this interesting is the fact that M222 is > so prevalent in NW Ireland and especially in Donegal. The names date from > Ptolemy's maps of Ireland and Scotland c. 150 AD. Irish historians tell > us the sons of Niall weren't even in NW Ireland at that date - supposedly > they migrated northward from their base in Connacht during or after the > time > of Niall (c. 400-450 AD). But perhaps Irish history isn't accurate. > > I found the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the > possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which > would > be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people) and > Con (of the hounds). And wondered if that could possibly have something > to > do with Conn, the ancestor of the Ui Neill and Connachta in Ireland, the > famous Conn of the Hundred Battles in Irish mythology. If this author is > right than that possibility seems fairly remote. > > But we still are left with the oddity of two probably related tribes in > Ireland and Scotland and the fact that the major hotspot for M222 in > Ireland > is found in the old territory of the Venicnii. > > I hesitated to make too much of this previously because until now no major > scholar or site connected the two tribal names. Many over the years had > noticed the similarity but none were willing to venture an opinion on > whether > both were the same tribal name. > > The author believes the Veneti, after their defeat in Gaul by the Romans, > could have come to both Scotland and Ireland in ships. > > "One could easily postulate that the survivors of the Roman conquest of the > Veneti in Gaul climbed into their boats and settled in Fife and Donnegal. > And the rebuilt tribe that occupied Fife continued the fight." > > According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as > Verturiones (Fortriu), > > "Once beaten in Fife by the renewed Roman attack on them, some of them > apparently joined the Roman side, and were later rewarded with the > Deceangli/Gangani territory in what is now north-west Wales, which the new > owners > promptly named after their tribe." > > "circa 390 - At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen > (Old King Cole - see the Kings of Northern Britain), a branch of Romanised > Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) > kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory > is > given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend > it." > > He ends with: > > "One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to > Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and > Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and > northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion." > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 18:32:38 -0700 > From: "Don Milligan" <donmilligan@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Cc: MARK MILLIGAN <wombat6926@yahoo.ca>, DONMILLIGAN@comcast.net > Message-ID: <008e01cc5e0f$e2b11c00$a8135400$@comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW "THINKING OUT OF THE BOX" COMES MORE EASILY TO > THE > "ANCIENT CELTS", LIKE SOME OF US! > > A FEW YEARS AGO, I EXCHANGED SOME EMAILS WITH ALAN, SUPPORTING THE IDEA > THAT > IT LOOKED LIKE THE "VENICONES" OF BOTH IRELAND AND SCOTLAND WERE SOMEHOW > CONNECTED. > > I RECALL ALAN AND I DISCUSSED IT, AND LIKELY SHARED COPIES OF SOME OF OUR > EMAILS WITH YOU. > > NOW, DUE TO OUR "EVOLUTION IN THINKING, GROWTH, AND DISCOVERIES", WE CAN > SEE > THAT SOME OF US WERE "BEATING AROUND THE BUSH" OF RECOGNIZING EARLY M-222+ > FOLK, IN SCOTLAND, WHO WERE CONNECTED WITH EARLY M-222+ IN IRELAND! PLUS, > THE POSSIBLY OF M-222+ AMONG SOME OF THE WELSH TRIBES!! GOD LOVE US!! > > AH, " I LOVE THE SMELL OF NAPALM IN THE MORNING", A PLAY ON THE MOVIE > EXPRESSION" "AH I LOVE THE SMELL OF NAPALM" IN THE MORNING, FROM THAT > FAMOUS FILM "APOCALYPSE NOW"! :-) :-) > > DON M > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:24 PM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Venicones > > I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones > and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal. > > _http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm_ > (http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm) > > This writer definitely sees a connection between the Venicones of the > eastern lowlands of Scotland and the Venicnii of NW Ireland (Donegal). He > further believes the names are derived from the Veneti of Gaul. The author > gives a completely different interpretation of the name from other writers > I've seen which deduce the -cones in Venicones from Cu or hound and Veni > from Feni. > > The main reason I've always found this interesting is the fact that M222 is > so prevalent in NW Ireland and especially in Donegal. The names date from > Ptolemy's maps of Ireland and Scotland c. 150 AD. Irish historians tell us > the sons of Niall weren't even in NW Ireland at that date - supposedly they > migrated northward from their base in Connacht during or after the time of > Niall (c. 400-450 AD). But perhaps Irish history isn't accurate. > > I found the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the > possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which > would be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni > (people) > and Con (of the hounds). And wondered if that could possibly have > something to do with Conn, the ancestor of the Ui Neill and Connachta in > Ireland, the famous Conn of the Hundred Battles in Irish mythology. If > this author is right than that possibility seems fairly remote. > > But we still are left with the oddity of two probably related tribes in > Ireland and Scotland and the fact that the major hotspot for M222 in > Ireland > is found in the old territory of the Venicnii. > > I hesitated to make too much of this previously because until now no major > scholar or site connected the two tribal names. Many over the years had > noticed the similarity but none were willing to venture an opinion on > whether both were the same tribal name. > > The author believes the Veneti, after their defeat in Gaul by the Romans, > could have come to both Scotland and Ireland in ships. > > "One could easily postulate that the survivors of the Roman conquest of the > Veneti in Gaul climbed into their boats and settled in Fife and Donnegal. > And the rebuilt tribe that occupied Fife continued the fight." > > According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as > Verturiones (Fortriu), > > "Once beaten in Fife by the renewed Roman attack on them, some of them > apparently joined the Roman side, and were later rewarded with the > Deceangli/Gangani territory in what is now north-west Wales, which the new > owners promptly named after their tribe." > > > > "circa 390 - At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen > (Old King Cole - see the Kings of Northern Britain), a branch of Romanised > Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) > kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory > is > given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend > it." > > He ends with: > > "One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to > Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and > Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and > northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion." > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 23:29:55 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <44278.e727ba9.3b7f32b3@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > In a message dated 8/18/2011 8:35:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > donmilligan@comcast.net writes: > > A FEW YEARS AGO, I EXCHANGED SOME EMAILS WITH ALAN, SUPPORTING THE IDEA > THAT > IT LOOKED LIKE THE "VENICONES" OF BOTH IRELAND AND SCOTLAND WERE SOMEHOW > CONNECTED. > > I RECALL ALAN AND I DISCUSSED IT, AND LIKELY SHARED COPIES OF SOME OF OUR > EMAILS WITH YOU. > > Don, I remember Alan and yourself discussing the Venicones and Venicniis. > In fact you are the ones who brought it to my attention in the first > place. I think I didn't back it wholeheartedly at the time because it > didn't fit > with the Irish history I knew of the sons of Niall. But now that I think > about it more I'm not sure. Maybe the sons of Niall had no need to move > northwest into Donegal because they were already there. > > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 249 > ****************************************** >

In a message dated 8/18/2011 8:35:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, donmilligan@comcast.net writes: A FEW YEARS AGO, I EXCHANGED SOME EMAILS WITH ALAN, SUPPORTING THE IDEA THAT IT LOOKED LIKE THE "VENICONES" OF BOTH IRELAND AND SCOTLAND WERE SOMEHOW CONNECTED. I RECALL ALAN AND I DISCUSSED IT, AND LIKELY SHARED COPIES OF SOME OF OUR EMAILS WITH YOU. Don, I remember Alan and yourself discussing the Venicones and Venicniis. In fact you are the ones who brought it to my attention in the first place. I think I didn't back it wholeheartedly at the time because it didn't fit with the Irish history I knew of the sons of Niall. But now that I think about it more I'm not sure. Maybe the sons of Niall had no need to move northwest into Donegal because they were already there. John

I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal. _http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm_ (http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm) This writer definitely sees a connection between the Venicones of the eastern lowlands of Scotland and the Venicnii of NW Ireland (Donegal). He further believes the names are derived from the Veneti of Gaul. The author gives a completely different interpretation of the name from other writers I've seen which deduce the -cones in Venicones from Cu or hound and Veni from Feni. The main reason I've always found this interesting is the fact that M222 is so prevalent in NW Ireland and especially in Donegal. The names date from Ptolemy's maps of Ireland and Scotland c. 150 AD. Irish historians tell us the sons of Niall weren't even in NW Ireland at that date - supposedly they migrated northward from their base in Connacht during or after the time of Niall (c. 400-450 AD). But perhaps Irish history isn't accurate. I found the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which would be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people) and Con (of the hounds). And wondered if that could possibly have something to do with Conn, the ancestor of the Ui Neill and Connachta in Ireland, the famous Conn of the Hundred Battles in Irish mythology. If this author is right than that possibility seems fairly remote. But we still are left with the oddity of two probably related tribes in Ireland and Scotland and the fact that the major hotspot for M222 in Ireland is found in the old territory of the Venicnii. I hesitated to make too much of this previously because until now no major scholar or site connected the two tribal names. Many over the years had noticed the similarity but none were willing to venture an opinion on whether both were the same tribal name. The author believes the Veneti, after their defeat in Gaul by the Romans, could have come to both Scotland and Ireland in ships. "One could easily postulate that the survivors of the Roman conquest of the Veneti in Gaul climbed into their boats and settled in Fife and Donnegal. And the rebuilt tribe that occupied Fife continued the fight." According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as Verturiones (Fortriu), "Once beaten in Fife by the renewed Roman attack on them, some of them apparently joined the Roman side, and were later rewarded with the Deceangli/Gangani territory in what is now north-west Wales, which the new owners promptly named after their tribe." "circa 390 - At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen (Old King Cole - see the Kings of Northern Britain), a branch of Romanised Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory is given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend it." He ends with: "One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion." John

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW "THINKING OUT OF THE BOX" COMES MORE EASILY TO THE "ANCIENT CELTS", LIKE SOME OF US! A FEW YEARS AGO, I EXCHANGED SOME EMAILS WITH ALAN, SUPPORTING THE IDEA THAT IT LOOKED LIKE THE "VENICONES" OF BOTH IRELAND AND SCOTLAND WERE SOMEHOW CONNECTED. I RECALL ALAN AND I DISCUSSED IT, AND LIKELY SHARED COPIES OF SOME OF OUR EMAILS WITH YOU. NOW, DUE TO OUR "EVOLUTION IN THINKING, GROWTH, AND DISCOVERIES", WE CAN SEE THAT SOME OF US WERE "BEATING AROUND THE BUSH" OF RECOGNIZING EARLY M-222+ FOLK, IN SCOTLAND, WHO WERE CONNECTED WITH EARLY M-222+ IN IRELAND! PLUS, THE POSSIBLY OF M-222+ AMONG SOME OF THE WELSH TRIBES!! GOD LOVE US!! AH, " I LOVE THE SMELL OF NAPALM IN THE MORNING", A PLAY ON THE MOVIE EXPRESSION" "AH I LOVE THE SMELL OF NAPALM" IN THE MORNING, FROM THAT FAMOUS FILM "APOCALYPSE NOW"! :-) :-) DON M -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:24 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Venicones I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal. _http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm_ (http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm) This writer definitely sees a connection between the Venicones of the eastern lowlands of Scotland and the Venicnii of NW Ireland (Donegal). He further believes the names are derived from the Veneti of Gaul. The author gives a completely different interpretation of the name from other writers I've seen which deduce the -cones in Venicones from Cu or hound and Veni from Feni. The main reason I've always found this interesting is the fact that M222 is so prevalent in NW Ireland and especially in Donegal. The names date from Ptolemy's maps of Ireland and Scotland c. 150 AD. Irish historians tell us the sons of Niall weren't even in NW Ireland at that date - supposedly they migrated northward from their base in Connacht during or after the time of Niall (c. 400-450 AD). But perhaps Irish history isn't accurate. I found the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which would be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people) and Con (of the hounds). And wondered if that could possibly have something to do with Conn, the ancestor of the Ui Neill and Connachta in Ireland, the famous Conn of the Hundred Battles in Irish mythology. If this author is right than that possibility seems fairly remote. But we still are left with the oddity of two probably related tribes in Ireland and Scotland and the fact that the major hotspot for M222 in Ireland is found in the old territory of the Venicnii. I hesitated to make too much of this previously because until now no major scholar or site connected the two tribal names. Many over the years had noticed the similarity but none were willing to venture an opinion on whether both were the same tribal name. The author believes the Veneti, after their defeat in Gaul by the Romans, could have come to both Scotland and Ireland in ships. "One could easily postulate that the survivors of the Roman conquest of the Veneti in Gaul climbed into their boats and settled in Fife and Donnegal. And the rebuilt tribe that occupied Fife continued the fight." According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as Verturiones (Fortriu), "Once beaten in Fife by the renewed Roman attack on them, some of them apparently joined the Roman side, and were later rewarded with the Deceangli/Gangani territory in what is now north-west Wales, which the new owners promptly named after their tribe." "circa 390 - At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen (Old King Cole - see the Kings of Northern Britain), a branch of Romanised Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory is given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend it." He ends with: "One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion." John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Here are a few links some might find interesting. The first is a phylogenetic tree by Bill Howard built from a collection of M222 haplotypes. _http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Ext. pdf_ (http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Ext.pdf) The second is an article Bill and I wrote on M222 using his techniques. http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Paper .pdf As most of you know most current TMRCA estimates for M222 come in at about 200-400 AD. give or take a few centuries. Bil's methods arrive at a radically different date: 1400 to 2000 BC. A second conclusion drawn in the paper will also be controversial: "Heuristic arguments point to an origin in Scotland, long before the reign of the Irish Chieftain Niall (of the Nine Hostages)." John

_knightstemplar_ (http://c:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Gene%20Ashley/My%20Documents/knightstemplar.htm) When Scotland Was Jewish Using the tools of modern DNA testing and evidence ranging from medieval burgess lists to synagogue records, professors Hirschman and Yates study a large community of Jewish merchants and court officials who were active in the nation-building phase of early Scottish history, 1000-1300 C.E. They discuss the Judaic origins of the Royal House of Stewart, the identity of Aberdeen's St. Machar, and the possible role of secret Jewish religious practices in the formation of Presbyterianism. Meet Lord Anthony Ashley-Cooper, the English peer who introduced the writ of habeas corpus the Babylonian exilarch who founded a Hebrew shul in southern France the Scottish princess Maud de Lens who combined several lines of Davidic ancestry and was one of the richest women in Europe and the Clan Douglas warrior who removed the heart of Robert the Bruce to have it buried in Jerusalem. Chapters on DNA analysis, clan genealogies, the Knights Templar, the Cabala, and the religions of Scotland conclude with a critical essay on Sir Walter Scott's heroine Rebecca in Ivanhoe, bringing the story of a previously unsuspected Judaic presence in the British Isles down to the present day. An epilogue glances at Scots-Irish emigration to America and looks at evidence of early Jewish communities in Ireland, Wales, the Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands. Excerpts from When Scotland Was Jewish. . . Descendants of medieval Spanish, French and Italian Jews -- that is, the Western or Mediterranean Jews of Sefarad -- are not primarily of Semitic ancestry. Rather, they belong to what is called the R1b DNA haplogroup, the most common male-line lineage in Europe and countries of the New World founded by Europeans. Bagpipes - musical instrument most associated in the popular imagination with Celts and Scotland - first gained popularity in Scotland at the outset of the 1500s. This was an age which continued the neglect of Celtic culture but which saw the mass expulsion of Jews and Moors from Spain due to the Spanish Inquisition. Significantly, the bagpipe originated in Mesopotamia and Greece between 700 to 400 B.C.E. Hence, it is a Middle Eastern/Central Asian musical instrument, not one indigenous to northern or western Europe.

I have the DYS392=15 value and this appears to have mutated from 14 in Scotland amongst the Kennedys. But it has also appeared in quite separate surnames/groups and I have several 25/25 matches (surnames unknown) originating in both Scotland and Ireland. I am 29 at 389-2 though. My 25/25 matches claim to come from: Ireland 3Scotland 2UK 2England 1Northern Ireland 1 Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 02:07:52 -0400 > From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] M222 slightly off model signature help request > > > <http://us.mc1254.mail.yahoo.com/mc/showMessage;_ylc=X3oDMTBrZ28zdG8wBF9TAzM5ODMwMTAyNwRhYwNGbGFn?sMid=0&fid=Sent&filterBy=&.rand=457779509&midIndex=0&mid=1_76273_AGziimIAAXGtTkiuXwk85GpkyG8&f=1&fromId=frmid2va%40yahoo.com&m=1_76273_AGziimIAAXGtTkiuXwk85GpkyG8%2C1_75893_AGjiimIAAAFFTkhFFQGYrgIUjf0%2C1_75510_AHHiimIAAJatTkajwwyuUDQJp0E%2C1_278_AGjiimIAANsdTkaZ4gQmTUD64OY%2C1_659_AEriimIAAFYtTkXsqwnoVi%2B8Cjs%2C1_1020_AEriimIAABvXTkXj%2BQXX%2Bjv23Hw%2C&sort=date&order=down&startMid=0&hash=13257c9050d03433a295a149a20ca132&.jsrand=4657804&acrumb=JV7QM4b%2FYIa&mcrumb=1xR1rtu2PRO&enc=auto&cmd=msg.flag> > > > I have a question which I've searched for an answer or even a > discussion of in all the reading lists, message boards, papers, and > web sites; and I'm either a total moron or the answers just are not > discussed. > > > Our M222 signature is a bit off model yet remains with-in profile. For > some of the marker variance, the 1 pt off is among those markers which > may mutate faster and/or more easlily than others. > > Our test result shows a dys 392 value at 15 which is yet with-in profile > while also considered off model. This particular marker is considered > one of the more stable markers tested. > > Of further interest to me is this combination of dys 392=15 and > 389-2=28. In all of FTDNA data base and Y search, our test subject > sample has NO exact matches at the 12 marker panel. It fits the M222 > profile as well as has several close matches at 67 (by close I'm > referring to 3 or 4 gd @ 67). One of those matches is with-in the > surname while all the rest are with a majority surname and and a few > others in the same parent project we tested under. > > I suppose what I'm really trying to figure out is whether that dys 392 > value of 15 is a mutation from 14, if the 14 we see as the highest > percentage value consistent with the M222 model signature today (in the > here and now) is the mutation from 15, OR if our test subject's > particular signature may represent a transitional model yet not defined. > > I have seen other R1b's with a DYS 392 = 15 -- not many I might add, and > by enlarge those I have found have a dys 389-2 value at 29 rather than > the 28 as our result shows. > > I did some critical looks at all the papers on line I could find, looked > at all the literature I could understand; found 1 website only which > even mentioned dys 392 = 15, and it was a one liner suggesting, don't > know. The one thing that seems clear is that that particular value > among all the R1b's is well in the minority. I did one of the online > analysis of haplotypes to get a result back that read 50% old Irish, 50% > Ulster Irish what ever that means -- I'm kidding, I know what that > means, but it didn't do a thing to answer my question. > > We joined the genographic project hoping they might shed some light on > the subject. In a word, NOPE! > > I'm trying to entice one of two male 3rd cousins to do a Y12 to see if > the signature is the same. That may or may not shed light on the > subject depending; but I'd guess that since all the male ancestors are > the same up until the last 3 generations that it's likely to be identical. > > Does anyone have any ideas or can point me in the direction of someone? > You notice that I didn't get overly involved in the terminology. I > really believe that we can explain very well in simple terms and that > may also benefit those who are not fully up to speed on the terminology > -- and although I get most of it, it also really is much easier to > understand in basic everyday language. frmid2va@yahoo.com or > chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message