Let follow some of Craig's words > Isolated individuals did not prosper or indeed long survive in the late Neolithic and the early Middle Ages. In Ireland the basic unit of society was the derbfhine (or variant), comprising all the patrilineal descendants over a four-generation group, i.e., back to common great-grandfather. The derbfhine held typical five or four rath/tech i.e. homesteads, which formed a Baile. Twenty Baile form a Tuath or Tricha Cet, the basic kingdom level. Population remains constant until such things as agricultural improvements; therefore population growth is a constant sum game, i.e. if the M222+ population expansion is at the expense of someone else’s male descendants. M222 population could expand territorially, however you have to wars and tribal politics, so a simpler method is to push the weaker members of the tribe to the edges. Smith shows this his book "Celtic Leinster". So non-M222 population is forced to marginal land or contested frontier, and so are in decline. (Probably also there male access to reproduction was a constant sum game to, won by those with great recourses.) How this applies to M222? Well M222 would have grown in a clump for mutual support and when large enough a clump breaks away and form new colonies. This organic grow is what is described in the branching pedigrees and the geographical movements can be followed in the annals. Hence have the information to know who should be M222 (if telling the truth) due to tribal claims. In Scotland this lack the annals its harder, yet there are Gaelic tribal descriptions. However the Clan confederation dominates our understanding of Scotland. Without the history and genealogical records we know little about origin of the Gall-Gael. I think the fundamental issue with Scotland is that no one have yet written the Gaelic history of Scotland, or as the Scots would have described it, the Irish history of Scotland….

I received an email from a co-admin of the Ireland DNA project on the subject of the Venicnii in Donegal. " " I read a book last year called: "Cenél Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800" by Brian Lacey of the Discovery project. It was published in 2006 before the publicity about M222 hit the wires. His theory was that the Cénel Conaill/Cénel Eoghain were actually indigenous to Donegal and that they had written themselves into history as Northern Uí Néill for political reasons. Obviously the presence of M222 seems to negate this theory. But perhaps there's some truth in argument that some of the Uí Néill were already "Donegal natives" by time that we reckon Niall lived. In other words carried M222 -- just as men carrying Uí Fiachrach and Uí Briúin names have tested M222+ Either way it's quite an interesting book as it covers the entire of Donegal during this period with mentions of the "Sean Tuatha" (the old tribes etc.). For example he theorises that the Cenél Lughaidh of West Donegal name actually reflects a connection to the god Lugh (they control area around Tory island on coast), but in christian times it was refactor to be descent from man called Lughaidh who is put down as a cousin of Colmcille. Fair bit in way of genealogies mention from annals etc. _http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784_ (http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784) I haven't read this book myself but I have access to it in a library here. Here's a review someone posed on Amazon.com. I might take a look at it myself. "Brian Lacey offers an in-depth study of the Cenel Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms 500-800 AD. The text has many b&w ilustrations and maps. The study is quite in-depth for the common layman but presented well. The author has strong opinions about the origin & genealogy of the Cenel Conaill but does not present a compelling argument in regards to his theory that Conall Gulban was not a son of Niall Noigiallach. I would have thought the author would have had more compelling evidence on Gulban than thus presented and was not swayed by his opinion and concur with the established Gulban genealogy back to Niall, although tenuous at best. In regards to Niall of the Nine Hostages not being the progenitor of the R-M222 genetic marker, I concur. Dr. Ken Nordtveldt calculates the MCCA of R-M222 at 1740 years ago in 2008. That computes to 268 AD, much earlier than Niall's supposed reign of 379 - 405 AD (more recent up to 455 AD). Of course this does not take into account a variance or standard deviation which was not computed. This places the progenitor possibly being Niall's father to up to his great-great grandfather (Caibre Maccormac d. 284). It is suggested that the progenitor may be a Cruithin Prince. This is unlikely as Niall's two brothers (Brion & Friachrae) through their respective descendents carry the R-M222 marker. Thus one of Niall's paternal ancestors most likely had the mutation. Anyway, Niall likely contributed most heavily to the marker since he was still pagan and had multiple concubines. Overall, a very well researched and scholarly presentation. However, the author's refudiation of some of the sons of Niall as not belonging to his lineage is at best weak and does not concur with the earlier records. In addition, recent R-M222 haplogroup DNA findings of surnames associated with Conall Gulban and the Ui Neill associated clans refute such suppositions presented by the author. " John

In a message dated 8/19/2011 9:43:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern Ui Neill power) were tested for M222 in the Trinity report? The names Trinity tested can be found in their article _A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland (Trinity)_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/gael.pdf) and in the various spreadsheets they released to the public. They also did a limited further sampling of possible M222 surnames but kept the surnames tested confidential. I also heard from several Kavanghs who said they were tested by Trinity but the surname does not appear in any database released. Their website and data files are still online even though the project is over. _http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php_ (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php) John

In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: I think at the very least that the current map on the project page should state that it just represent the area of greatest currently known concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, and/or any of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a much more extensive area of coverage. For instance there was a suggestion on the R-L21 Project some months back that parts of Germany may be up to 5% M222+, if that's true it changes everything! I put the Trinity M222 distribution map online. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg) There is no other such map available that I know of. As to German M222 there are quite a few in the databases. I just posted an old list I compiled years ago the other day in response to someone who told me he was Scandinavian M222. I haven't been able to update this list in the last few years. Ysearch times out after about 500 entries now. John

In a message dated 8/19/2011 7:54:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, donmilligan@comcast.net writes: I understand there are some histories of Wales, written in the early 1900,that indicated some Irish raiders from the east central coast of Ireland came into Wales and some of them settled in Wales. Some of these Irish raiders were likely Celtic M-222+. Their descendants mixed in with the Welsh Celts, and spread all the way into northern England, southern Scotland, and northeastern Scotland. There's a fair amount about that in the literature. Google flight of the Deisi to find some of it. There aren't many specific Irish tribes named though. I think the Ui Liathain are another. There are also notices of a northern British tribe returning to northern Wales to throw out the Irish kings. And in Irish sources a statement that the Irish kings spent as much time in Wales as in Ireland. Nothing specific though. Nothing to tie in with M222 although you can't rule it out. The following is from Wikipedia: " The Uí Liatháin are known from both Irish and _British_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) sources, respectively the _Sanas Cormaic_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic) _[4]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uí_Liatháin#cite_note-3) _[5]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uí_Liatháin#cite_note-4) and _Historia Brittonum_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Brittonum) ,_[6]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uí_Liatháin#cite_note-5) to have had colonies in _Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales) and _Cornwall_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall) . According to the Historia Brittonum they were driven out of _North Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Wales) by _Cunedda_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunedda) and his sons._[7]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uí_Liatháin#cite_note-6) Alongside the Uí Liatháin in this region of Britain were a significant force of the so-called _Déisi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Déisi) , whose story is told in the famous _Expulsion of the Déisi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Déisi) already mentioned above,_[8]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uí_Liatháin#cite_note-7) as well as a smaller population of the _Laigin_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin) . Neither are specifically connected to the Uí Liatháin, or connected to each other, in any of the Irish sources, but collaboration can certainly not be ruled out, especially in matters relating to trade, including the slave trade. The Déisi Muman lived adjacent to them in the neighboring _County Waterford_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Waterford) and the Laigin could be found not much farther east in the Kingdom of _Leinster_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster) . The Uí Liatháin can, however, be associated easily with their apparent relation _Crimthann mac Fidaig_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimthann_mac_Fidaig) , the legendary _King of Munster_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Munster) and dominant _High King of Ireland_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland) of the 4th century. They are mentioned not only in the same passage in the Sanas Cormaic,_[9]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uí_Liatháin#cite_note-8) _[10]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uí_Liatháin#cite_note-9) but are close relations in all the earliest genealogical manuscripts. In a 1926 paper, _Eoin MacNeill_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_MacNeill) discusses the movements of the Uí Liatháin at considerable length, arguing their leadership in the South Irish conquests and founding of the later dynasty of _Brycheiniog_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brycheiniog) , figures in the Welsh genealogies matching Uí Liatháin dynasts in the Irish genealogies. He argues any possible settlement of the Déisi would have been subordinate until the ousting of the Uí Liatháin by the sons of Cunedda. The founder of Brycheiniog, _Brychan_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brychan) , is in all probability the early dynast Macc Brocc (for whom see below), while the name Braccan also occurs early in the pedigrees of the Uí Fidgenti and Uí Dedaid, close kindred of the Uí Liatháin. MacNeill further associates this with the sovereignty in Ireland and conquests in Britain of their cousin germane, the monarch Crimthann mac Fidaig._[11]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uí_Liatháin#cite_note-10) John

Not that I am aware of, but then the Laigin are more of a confederation of families than really one people. > Is there any belief that M-222 may have come to Ireland with the Laigin? > > Early Irish historical traditions credited the founding of the Laigin to the legendary High King Labraid Loingsech . His grandfather, Lóegaire Lorc , had been overthrown by his own brother, Cobthach Cóel Breg , and Labraid forced into exile. After a period of military service on the continent, Labraid returned to Ireland at the head of an army, known as Laigin after the broad blue-grey iron spearheads ( láigne ) they carried. The Lebor Gabála Érenn dates Labraid's accession to 300 BC. [ 3 ] [ 4 ] [ 5 ] Modern historians suggest, on the basis of these traditions and related placenames, that the Laigin were a group of invaders from Gaul or Britain, who arrived no later than the 6th century BC, and were later incorporated into the medieval genealogical scheme which made all the ruling groups of early Ireland descend from Míl Espáine . Placenames also suggest they once had a presence in north Munster and in Connacht. [ 6 ] > > See O'Rahilly's historical model for a summary of the Laigin at the height of their power in Ireland. They may have conquered approximately half the island.

The Gael were a tribal people of which today dynastic surname (from 11th) trace membership of. There is little question (other from members of list) that the M222 mutation occurred in Ireland. The previous L21 mutation shows the road map of our ancestors' migration from the area of France and our R1b DNA traces back to the population of the North Caucasus. For the Scottish origins, some will be directly from Ireland, i.e., who Anglized their names in Scottish form (I grew up to think Morgans where Welsh settlers, no one mentioned the O'Morgans). Others, like those who can trace their origin in Scotland to medieval times, are Irish immigrants. Like the ones who gave their name 'Scots' to the land they colonized, it’s just a matter of then. Unfortunately there has been little focus on identifying tribal groups and their relationships to M222+, even within Scotland the clans (more like confederation) break down into stratum of different tribal memberships, each with their own Gaelic tribal name. I think it’s the targeted testing performed by Universities is what has yield the best results. I have too few Morgans/Morans to create of DNA map of origins. Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:46:35 -0400 From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net To: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com CC: pconroy63@gmail.com; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] j All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have developed in Ireland? Personally, I don't care where it formed up. If indeed it is Ireland, wonderful since that has been declared my genetic Celtic make up -- at least at the moment since M222 is presently defined there and my immigrant ancestors lived and farmed there previous to hopping the pond. Am I going to be upset if it formed up in Scotland, Brittany, near the Alps, in Iberia, Turkey, or Cashel, or any of the other places where Celtic society migrated in and out of? Absolutely not. The current popular theory seems to be short, yet is highly popular and considered as fact when indeed it is yet simply a theory based on statistical data which was quantified too soon in the game. I think that is all John and Bill and several others are saying, and I personally thought that previous to joining this group, and I will continue to believe it until the theory is really tested right along with others with a larger and more diverse testing pool. Susan On 8/19/2011 4:51 PM, Bernard Morgan wrote: > > I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. > Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That > is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; > so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill > informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. > Surely migration is an aspect, however I think reference to the Nial Saga (name of an actual Norse saga) ignores the written tradition of Ireland that began in the 5th century. In Ireland we are dealing with the third oldest written history in Europe. Hence the movement of the people of claim descent from Neill is well document and publish in numerous academic works, such as Prof. Brynes "Irish Kings and High kings". Writers like Beresford point out the vast majority of Irish manuscripts remain un-translated and it seem un-transcribed.

Is there any belief that M-222 may have come to Ireland with the Laigin? Early Irish historical traditions credited the founding of the Laigin to the legendary High King Labraid Loingsech . His grandfather, Lóegaire Lorc , had been overthrown by his own brother, Cobthach Cóel Breg , and Labraid forced into exile. After a period of military service on the continent, Labraid returned to Ireland at the head of an army, known as Laigin after the broad blue-grey iron spearheads ( láigne ) they carried. The Lebor Gabála Érenn dates Labraid's accession to 300 BC. [ 3 ] [ 4 ] [ 5 ] Modern historians suggest, on the basis of these traditions and related placenames, that the Laigin were a group of invaders from Gaul or Britain, who arrived no later than the 6th century BC, and were later incorporated into the medieval genealogical scheme which made all the ruling groups of early Ireland descend from Míl Espáine . Placenames also suggest they once had a presence in north Munster and in Connacht. [ 6 ] See O'Rahilly's historical model for a summary of the Laigin at the height of their power in Ireland. They may have conquered approximately half the island. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernard Morgan" <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net, pconroy63@gmail.com Cc: "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:51:55 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend > > I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. > Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That > is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; > so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill > informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. > Surely migration is an aspect, however I think reference to the Nial Saga (name of an actual Norse saga) ignores the written tradition of Ireland that began in the 5th century. In Ireland we are dealing with the third oldest written history in Europe. Hence the movement of the people of claim descent from Neill is well document and publish in numerous academic works, such as Prof. Brynes "Irish Kings and High kings". Writers like Beresford point out the vast majority of Irish manuscripts remain un-translated and it seem un-transcribed.                                                     R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 8/19/2011 5:43:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cjl315@comcast.net writes: Is there any belief that M-222 may have come to Ireland with the Laigin? There is a DNA signature associated with the Lagin of Leinster but its not M222. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm) John

In a message dated 8/19/2011 4:46:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have developed in Ireland? Most DNA experts I'm familiar with believe M222 originated in Ireland. And the reason they think so (in the words of Ken Nordvedt) is "that's where the haplotypes are." Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) said much the samething in a recent book and interview, a small part of which follows: Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in Scotland for hundreds of years. Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a native people who spoke Gaelic anyway? Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland. And this is because we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's over 40% - so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the progenitor is. Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. Wilson: I think that is the case. Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we willl see that and the case will be closed. That theory is not universally held however. Dr. Faux, also of EthnoAncetry at the time in 2006, said the following about M222 (then called R1b1c7): " 3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it may occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perhps because the first M222 emerged there). The only other relevant theory out there among academics belongs not to DNA but to an Irish mythologist, O' Rahillyh (Early Irish History and Mythology). O'Rahilly believed the Dal Cuinn), ancestors of the Ui Neill and Connachta, were latecomers to Ireland arriving sometime between 300 and 30 BC. He also believed they came not from England or Scotland but from somewhere in Gaul. We\ve discussed this on the list numerous times before. O'Rahilly began his book with a chapter on Ptolemy's map of Ireland. Well over half the tribal names in Ptolemy's map are unidentifiable to modern scholars. There is some agreement of a few of the names, including that of the Ulaidh and Dal Riata in northern Ireland, the Brigantes in Leinster, the Iverni in Munster and a few others. O'"Rahilly found no references to a tribe with the name of Dal Cuinn or anything similar. In fact he said they should have been there by 150 AD. but were not. O'Rahilly discussed every tribal name that appears in Ptolemy's map except for one: the Venicnii.. Why he omitted this name is a mystery. It appears in every version of the map I've seen. In a minor footnote he even mentioned the Venicones of Scotland. O'Rahilly's theories are all wrapped up in linguistic divisions between P and Q Celtic. I have ignored these since few linguists agree with him. When you boil it down to the basics you come away with this: the Dal Cuinn as a tribe came to Ireland from somewhere in Gaul sometime during the Roman era in the British Isles. If you accept the connection between the Dal Cuinn and M222, and the possibility that the Dal Cuinn came from Gaul, then it is logical to assume M222 originated in Gaul and migrated west into the British Isles. Scotland would be the most likely first settlement; but they had boats and could have come to Ireland at about the same time. If anyone knows of any other theories on the origin of the Dal Cuinn now is the time to speak out. John

> > I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. > Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That > is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; > so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill > informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. > Surely migration is an aspect, however I think reference to the Nial Saga (name of an actual Norse saga) ignores the written tradition of Ireland that began in the 5th century. In Ireland we are dealing with the third oldest written history in Europe. Hence the movement of the people of claim descent from Neill is well document and publish in numerous academic works, such as Prof. Brynes "Irish Kings and High kings". Writers like Beresford point out the vast majority of Irish manuscripts remain un-translated and it seem un-transcribed.

Jerry, I read the same in Byrne's "Irish King and High Kings": "As for the Cenel Maine maic Neill, our two earliest genealogical manuscripts (both of which date from the twelfth century) differ irreconcilably as to the pedigree of that Aed mac Brenainn of which date from the twelfth century) differ irreconcilably as to the pedigree of that Aed mac Brenainn who granted Durrow to Colum Cille. We may suspect then that eastern Maine was so successfully absorbed into the Ui Neill ambit that their kings, by a politic fiction, were accepted into the dominant dynastic circle. The parting of the ways between Connachta and Ui Neill then led to the total separation of the Ui Maine and Cenel Maine. The fact that the annalistic obit of Maine mac Neill in 440 is so much earlier than that of any of his supposed brothers also suggests that he was adopted into the dynasty some time after the synthetic historians had agreed to push back the date of Niall's reign by a generation or more." First to note Maine's brother Laegaire mac Neill was according to the same annals king in 432 and died cicra 462, Maine date is not problematic per se. There is a desription of Bryne's views from Celtica: "Through Professor Byrne has litte doubt about the historicity of Niall himseld, he is quire properly reluctant to accept as Ui Neill some fo the lineages which claimed him as an ancestor. He suggest that 'some rulers managed to have their pedigrees grafted onto Niall's stem and Cenel Maine is a likely example of this. Ui Maine west of the Shannon and Cenel Maine to the east of it may once have formed one kingdom and the dynasty of the eastern part may have been accepted as Ui Neill once their territory was absorbed by the Ui Neill overkingdom." He could have a just as easy questioned Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill origins. Aed mac Brenainn of Cenel Maine pedigree (later 6th century) is placed by Margeret Dobbs's "The Territory and People of of Tethba" at Lissardowlan", Co. Longford per "The Life of Berach". While Bec mac Connla (died 770) had his residence in North Tethba, for (per Dobbs) in 1282 an O’Farrell castle was at “Cluain Lis Bece mic Connla. Matching what is accepted history, i.e. the people of Teffia originate north of the River Inny and where forced south. Yet the Ui Maine of Connacht are from Maenmhagh lying around Loughrea, Co. Galway? So is the argument that Ui Maine and Cenel Maine are one kingdom separated by the Shannon false, it seems that they are neighbors be a accident of history? > Hi Bernard, > > I remember from IRELAND BEFORE THE VIKINGS by Gearóid Mac Niocaill that the genealogies of the Cenél Maine are suspect. They might be the eastern remnant of a greater Maine kingdom which predates the rise of the Uí Néill and once may have spanned the Shannon with the Uí Mhaine as the western branch. Possibly, when actual Uí Néill (by blood) forced a wedge of settlement between them (I'm at work now at blanking on the name of that branch), the Uí Mhaine were "adopted" into the pseudo-histories of the Uí Néill story as descended from Maine descendant of Éremón while the Cenél Maine were adopted into the story as descended from Maine son of Niall descendant of Éremón. > > That's from a modern historian. As you know, Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh was one of Ireland's 2 greatest 17th century historians. He also doubted the genealogies of some of the Uí Néill in Deiscirt (Southern Uí Néill), especially that of the Ó Dálaigh of the Fir Cell of the Cenél Maine. He maintained that all the Fir Cell were Fir Bolg with a bogus Uí Néill pedigree. > > Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry > > Treibheanna Éireannacha > www.irishtribes.com > >

The point is to "think out of the box", ever so often! And that is happening...Good. Now, that it appears that M-222+ existed in Ireland, and perhaps other areas, prior to Niall, it makes sense to discuss the various scenarios that address the most likely possibilities. More investigation for the presence of m-222+ in various areas that have not been significantly investigated, and an analysis of how it got there, and for clues, etc. I understand there are some histories of Wales, written in the early 1900,that indicated some Irish raiders from the east central coast of Ireland came into Wales and some of them settled in Wales. Some of these Irish raiders were likely Celtic M-222+. Their descendants mixed in with the Welsh Celts, and spread all the way into northern England, southern Scotland, and northeastern Scotland. What do we know about this possibility? What do we know about the presence of M-222+ in southern Britain, , in very early times, in comparison to what we know about Ireland in very early times? What fascinates me, is the question of the "Moment(s) & "Location(s)" & "When, Where, and Why" M-222+ Men actually came into existence, arising from L-21 Men? Was it in northern France/ Germany? Ireland? southern Britain? Or, some combination of all or some of those locations? When did "M-222+" first came into existence out of "L-21" ? Could that only happen in one location at a time, or more than one? Thanks, Don Milligan, a M-222+ with Milligan ancestors from Scotland and Ireland. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 2:47 PM To: Bernard Morgan Cc: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] j All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have developed in Ireland? Personally, I don't care where it formed up. If indeed it is Ireland, wonderful since that has been declared my genetic Celtic make up -- at least at the moment since M222 is presently defined there and my immigrant ancestors lived and farmed there previous to hopping the pond. Am I going to be upset if it formed up in Scotland, Brittany, near the Alps, in Iberia, Turkey, or Cashel, or any of the other places where Celtic society migrated in and out of? Absolutely not. The current popular theory seems to be short, yet is highly popular and considered as fact when indeed it is yet simply a theory based on statistical data which was quantified too soon in the game. I think that is all John and Bill and several others are saying, and I personally thought that previous to joining this group, and I will continue to believe it until the theory is really tested right along with others with a larger and more diverse testing pool. Susan On 8/19/2011 4:51 PM, Bernard Morgan wrote: > > > > I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. > > Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That > > is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; > > so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill > > informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. > > > > Surely migration is an aspect, however I think reference to the Nial > Saga (name of an actual Norse saga) ignores the written tradition of > Ireland that began in the 5th century. In Ireland we are dealing with > the third oldest written history in Europe. Hence the movement of the > people of claim descent from Neill is well document and publish in > numerous academic works, such as Prof. Brynes "Irish Kings and High > kings". Writers like Beresford point out the vast majority of Irish > manuscripts remain un-translated and it seem un-transcribed. > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have developed in Ireland? Personally, I don't care where it formed up. If indeed it is Ireland, wonderful since that has been declared my genetic Celtic make up -- at least at the moment since M222 is presently defined there and my immigrant ancestors lived and farmed there previous to hopping the pond. Am I going to be upset if it formed up in Scotland, Brittany, near the Alps, in Iberia, Turkey, or Cashel, or any of the other places where Celtic society migrated in and out of? Absolutely not. The current popular theory seems to be short, yet is highly popular and considered as fact when indeed it is yet simply a theory based on statistical data which was quantified too soon in the game. I think that is all John and Bill and several others are saying, and I personally thought that previous to joining this group, and I will continue to believe it until the theory is really tested right along with others with a larger and more diverse testing pool. Susan On 8/19/2011 4:51 PM, Bernard Morgan wrote: > > > > I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. > > Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That > > is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; > > so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill > > informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. > > > > Surely migration is an aspect, however I think reference to the Nial > Saga (name of an actual Norse saga) ignores the written tradition of > Ireland that began in the 5th century. In Ireland we are dealing with > the third oldest written history in Europe. Hence the movement of the > people of claim descent from Neill is well document and publish in > numerous academic works, such as Prof. Brynes "Irish Kings and High > kings". Writers like Beresford point out the vast majority of Irish > manuscripts remain un-translated and it seem un-transcribed. > >

Well said Susan. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 2:47 PM To: Bernard Morgan Cc: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] j All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have developed in Ireland? Personally, I don't care where it formed up. If indeed it is Ireland, wonderful since that has been declared my genetic Celtic make up -- at least at the moment since M222 is presently defined there and my immigrant ancestors lived and farmed there previous to hopping the pond. Am I going to be upset if it formed up in Scotland, Brittany, near the Alps, in Iberia, Turkey, or Cashel, or any of the other places where Celtic society migrated in and out of? Absolutely not. The current popular theory seems to be short, yet is highly popular and considered as fact when indeed it is yet simply a theory based on statistical data which was quantified too soon in the game. I think that is all John and Bill and several others are saying, and I personally thought that previous to joining this group, and I will continue to believe it until the theory is really tested right along with others with a larger and more diverse testing pool. Susan On 8/19/2011 4:51 PM, Bernard Morgan wrote: > > > > I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. > > Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That > > is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; > > so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill > > informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. > > > > Surely migration is an aspect, however I think reference to the Nial > Saga (name of an actual Norse saga) ignores the written tradition of > Ireland that began in the 5th century. In Ireland we are dealing with > the third oldest written history in Europe. Hence the movement of the > people of claim descent from Neill is well document and publish in > numerous academic works, such as Prof. Brynes "Irish Kings and High > kings". Writers like Beresford point out the vast majority of Irish > manuscripts remain un-translated and it seem un-transcribed. > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Good presentation, Craig. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Craig McKie Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 3:53 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Speculations on Celtric Tribes My only slightly informed speculations as a retired sociologist/demographer: 1. There must have been a stable tribal base for M222 to proliferate as it did over many centuries. Isolated individuals did not prosper or indeed long survive in the late Neolithic and the early Middle Ages. Remember as well that life expectancy then would be in the low 30 years with 40% infant mortality even in the best of circumstances. Further, the mutation must have been especially well established in a very prosperous ruling male elite which had repeated non-casual sexual access to a wide range of women. It would almost certainly involve slavery I would think. The multiplier required to produce 3 million carrier males worldwide now in the space of perhaps 2,000 low-life-expectancy/high-mortality years is extraordinary. 2. That all Celtic tribes of the Neolithic age initially derive from Anatolia, beginning 12,000 years ago via Greece and then southern Europe, is now simply a truism. The published dissipation maps of R1b clearly show the east to west gradient. The groups moved slowly with their cereal grains and their livestock. The animals were initially for meat ("blood month" in late fall for slaughter was a widespread tradition) and then later for dairy after lactose tolerance emerged as a result of routine feeding of surplus milk to young children, some few of which had tolerance (or more properly, had lost the intolerance gene) and became lifelong consumers probably in what is now The Netherlands or northern Belgium. I would very interested to know if any M222 individuals now proved to be lactose intolerant. It would seem unlikely. 3. The arrival of separate tribes in Great Britain is thus a question of timing and circumstance since the tribal communities clearly did not all arrive at once. Each probably had its own version of a genesis myth which would muddy the whole matter. How separate the separate tribes really were then is an empirical question. Were they like cousins or enemies? Or like the separate but non-contending tribes in the 6 Nations Confederacy such as the Mohawk and the Iroquois? Did they have specialized skills, good and bad reputations? Probably we shall never know unless a great batch of chronicles emerges from some field like a gold and silver horde. There is abundant evidence that the first large group finally reached the west coast of Ireland 7,000 years ago, the migration from Anatolia thus taking 5,000 years to complete. Their extensive stonework animal pens are still there buried in the peat in western Ireland, several feet down and would have taken hundreds of thousands of manhours of labour to create by hand over centuries. This finding in turn means to me that the initial tribes had the means to transport young livestock by sea by means now unknown. No conveyance now known could have transported adult animals at that time. Taking young animals implies planning, an investment strategy, a supply within the community of capital of some sort which could be ventured, possibly stored cereal grain and precious metals. 3. The current geodistribution of M222 (as it is now seen in yet rudimentary form) is suspiciously similar to the territory of the Kingdom of Dal Riata (roughly 500-800 AD, including the sponsored establishment of the Iona community, St. Columba, and so on.). If I may quote from the sometimes dubious Wikipedia, "Dál Riata (also Dalriada or Dalriata) was a Gaelic overkingdom on the western coast of Scotland with some territory on the northeast coast of Ireland. In the late 6th and early 7th century it encompassed roughly what is now Argyll and Bute and Lochaber in Scotland and also County Antrim in Ireland....What is not in doubt is that Irish Dál Riata was a lesser kingdom of Ulaid....Columba brokered the alliance between Dál Riata and the Northern Uí Néill." Note: an alliance with O'Neill, not identity or kinship with. Dal Riata was the kingdom in which the kingly investiture hill fort of Dunadd is located. Judging by the archeology, it was a very wealthy and well-defended fortress. Dal Riata formed the base for the Kenneth MacAlpin assemblage of a unified kingdom of Alba in the mid 800s after the expulsion of the Vikings. And yes, Dal Riata did have long timber ships of the Viking sort quite capable of moving livestock and stored grains (and slaves of course). Again, from Wikipedia, "Linguistic and genealogical evidence associates ancestors of the Dál Riata with the prehistoric Iverni and Darini, suggesting kinship with the Ulaid and a number of shadowy kingdoms in distant Munster. The Robogdii have also been suggested as ancestral. Ultimately the Dál Riata, according to the earliest genealogies, are descendants of Deda mac Sin, a prehistoric king or deity of the Érainn." I am in no position at all to assess this list of possible tribal sources. But I doubt anyone really is in the present era. However, the derivation is probably written somewhere in the y-dna if it could ever be weedled out and deciphered. For fans of the movie The Eagle, I am sort of rooting for The Seal People as ancestors. They are my kind of people and had large deerhounds to run escaping slaves down, at least in the movie. More likely to be a bunch of rutting Druids I guess. What is the police adage?: motive, method, opportunity and ability. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

THE POINT IS TO "THINK OUT OF THE BOX", EVER SO OFTEN! AND THAT IS HAPPENING...GOOD. NOW, THAT IT APPEARS THAT M-222+ EXISTED IN IRELAND, AND PERHAPS OTHER AREAS, PRIOR TO NIALL, IT MAKES SENSE TO DISCUSS THE VARIOUS SCENARIOS THAT ADDRESS THE MOST LIKELY POSIBILITIES. MORE INVESTIGATION FOR THE PRESENCE OF M-222+ IN VARIOUS AREAS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY INVESTIGATED, AND AN ANALYSIS OF HOW IT GOT THERE, AND FOR CLUES, ETC. I UNDERSTAND THERE ARE SOME HISTORIES OF WALES, WRITTEN IN THE EARLY 1900, THAT INDICATED THAT, SOME IRISH RAIDERS FROM THE EAST CENTRAL COAST OF IRELAND CAME INTO WALES AND SOME OF THEM SETTLED IN WALES. SOME OF THESE IRISH RAIDERS WERE LIKELY M-222+. THEIR DESCENDANTS MIXED IN WITH THE WELSH, WHO ALSO WERE CELTIC PEOPLE, WHO COULD HAVE SPREAD ALL THE WAY INTO NORTHERN ENGLAND, SOUTHERN SCOTLAND, AND NORTHEASTERN SCOTLAND. WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THIS POSSIBILTY? WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE PRESENCE OF M-222+ IN SOUTHERN BRITAIN IN VERY EARLY TIMES, IN COMPARISON TO WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT IRELAND IN VERY EARLY TIMES? WHAT FASCINATES ME, IS THE QUESTION OF THE "MOMENT(S) & LOCATION(S), WHEN, WHERE & HOW, M-222+ MEN ACTUALLY CAME INTO EXISTENCE, ARISING FROM L-21"? WAS IT IN NORTHERN FRANCE/GERMANY? IRELAND? SOUTHERN BRITAIN? OR SOME COMBINATION OF ALL THOSE LOCATIONS? WHEN M-222+ CAME INTO EXISTENCE OUT OF L-21, COULD THAT ONLY HAPPEN IN ONE LOCATION AT A TIME? A QUESTION FROM A NOVICE. DON MILLIGAN -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 1:29 PM To: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] quite possibly the case Caution should forever be in mind...just to clarify, the original thread was not mine, I just chimed in. I have no more of a clue where M222 began than the next...all of the ideas, however are interesting, and I think we need not make any decisions on the matter. There will many theories tested and thrown out. Everyone will have an opinion. As the science changes so will the definitions and the theories, and did the ancients really know any more than we? Who knows? Maybe and maybe not. After all they all thought the sun revolved around the earth which was flat, except for a few who feared they'd be drawn & quartered if they uttered their descent. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Caution should forever be in mind...just to clarify, the original thread was not mine, I just chimed in. I have no more of a clue where M222 began than the next...all of the ideas, however are interesting, and I think we need not make any decisions on the matter. There will many theories tested and thrown out. Everyone will have an opinion. As the science changes so will the definitions and the theories, and did the ancients really know any more than we? Who knows? Maybe and maybe not. After all they all thought the sun revolved around the earth which was flat, except for a few who feared they'd be drawn & quartered if they uttered their descent.

My only slightly informed speculations as a retired sociologist/demographer: 1. There must have been a stable tribal base for M222 to proliferate as it did over many centuries. Isolated individuals did not prosper or indeed long survive in the late Neolithic and the early Middle Ages. Remember as well that life expectancy then would be in the low 30 years with 40% infant mortality even in the best of circumstances. Further, the mutation must have been especially well established in a very prosperous ruling male elite which had repeated non-casual sexual access to a wide range of women. It would almost certainly involve slavery I would think. The multiplier required to produce 3 million carrier males worldwide now in the space of perhaps 2,000 low-life-expectancy/high-mortality years is extraordinary. 2. That all Celtic tribes of the Neolithic age initially derive from Anatolia, beginning 12,000 years ago via Greece and then southern Europe, is now simply a truism. The published dissipation maps of R1b clearly show the east to west gradient. The groups moved slowly with their cereal grains and their livestock. The animals were initially for meat ("blood month" in late fall for slaughter was a widespread tradition) and then later for dairy after lactose tolerance emerged as a result of routine feeding of surplus milk to young children, some few of which had tolerance (or more properly, had lost the intolerance gene) and became lifelong consumers probably in what is now The Netherlands or northern Belgium. I would very interested to know if any M222 individuals now proved to be lactose intolerant. It would seem unlikely. 3. The arrival of separate tribes in Great Britain is thus a question of timing and circumstance since the tribal communities clearly did not all arrive at once. Each probably had its own version of a genesis myth which would muddy the whole matter. How separate the separate tribes really were then is an empirical question. Were they like cousins or enemies? Or like the separate but non-contending tribes in the 6 Nations Confederacy such as the Mohawk and the Iroquois? Did they have specialized skills, good and bad reputations? Probably we shall never know unless a great batch of chronicles emerges from some field like a gold and silver horde. There is abundant evidence that the first large group finally reached the west coast of Ireland 7,000 years ago, the migration from Anatolia thus taking 5,000 years to complete. Their extensive stonework animal pens are still there buried in the peat in western Ireland, several feet down and would have taken hundreds of thousands of manhours of labour to create by hand over centuries. This finding in turn means to me that the initial tribes had the means to transport young livestock by sea by means now unknown. No conveyance now known could have transported adult animals at that time. Taking young animals implies planning, an investment strategy, a supply within the community of capital of some sort which could be ventured, possibly stored cereal grain and precious metals. 3. The current geodistribution of M222 (as it is now seen in yet rudimentary form) is suspiciously similar to the territory of the Kingdom of Dal Riata (roughly 500-800 AD, including the sponsored establishment of the Iona community, St. Columba, and so on.). If I may quote from the sometimes dubious Wikipedia, "Dál Riata (also Dalriada or Dalriata) was a Gaelic overkingdom on the western coast of Scotland with some territory on the northeast coast of Ireland. In the late 6th and early 7th century it encompassed roughly what is now Argyll and Bute and Lochaber in Scotland and also County Antrim in Ireland....What is not in doubt is that Irish Dál Riata was a lesser kingdom of Ulaid....Columba brokered the alliance between Dál Riata and the Northern Uí Néill." Note: an alliance with O'Neill, not identity or kinship with. Dal Riata was the kingdom in which the kingly investiture hill fort of Dunadd is located. Judging by the archeology, it was a very wealthy and well-defended fortress. Dal Riata formed the base for the Kenneth MacAlpin assemblage of a unified kingdom of Alba in the mid 800s after the expulsion of the Vikings. And yes, Dal Riata did have long timber ships of the Viking sort quite capable of moving livestock and stored grains (and slaves of course). Again, from Wikipedia, "Linguistic and genealogical evidence associates ancestors of the Dál Riata with the prehistoric Iverni and Darini, suggesting kinship with the Ulaid and a number of shadowy kingdoms in distant Munster. The Robogdii have also been suggested as ancestral. Ultimately the Dál Riata, according to the earliest genealogies, are descendants of Deda mac Sin, a prehistoric king or deity of the Érainn." I am in no position at all to assess this list of possible tribal sources. But I doubt anyone really is in the present era. However, the derivation is probably written somewhere in the y-dna if it could ever be weedled out and deciphered. For fans of the movie The Eagle, I am sort of rooting for The Seal People as ancestors. They are my kind of people and had large deerhounds to run escaping slaves down, at least in the movie. More likely to be a bunch of rutting Druids I guess. What is the police adage?: motive, method, opportunity and ability.

This I agree with Marie on, there need be more testing, and/or analysis of the testing which has been completed to date. Very often the research data is targeted to the exclusion of other data particularly when large concentrations show in particular areas. Then someone fits things together in their own mind and develops a theory to speak to that. I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. Now Ftdna among others have run with it because it is a great way to sell kits, upgrades, and SNP testing. And if we, one or all, turn up to be related to royalty by descent, tagged as such because there are paper genealogies out there that claim without records or citations that XYZ were related to this king previous to the time records were kept, -- you get it -- we are special and then can live vicariously on our new found fame. Excuse my sarcasm here, but some of this really gets me. SUsan On 8/19/2011 3:25 PM, Paul Conroy wrote: > Susan, > > Oh I didn't mean to suggest that they were being excluded in any way. > However all the early press on this haplogroup and it's associated SNP > mentions the O'Neill family and their descendants, and Northern > Ireland and Scotland, so people with no ancestry from these areas > might feel that this project doesn't apply to them at all. > > I think at the very least that the current map on the project page > should state that it just represent the area of greatest currently > known concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, > and/or any of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a > much more extensive area of coverage. For instance there was a > suggestion on the R-L21 Project some months back that parts of Germany > may be up to 5% M222+, if that's true it changes everything! > > I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the > Belgae tribes of the Rhine... > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Susan Hedeen > <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net>> wrote: > > Thank you, Doug, it's nice to be complimented for sharing a bit of > reality and sanity. > > Truly, From this person whose descendant families on 8 sides now have > gone through the rigors of DNA testing, as a McConnaughey who's > ancestors all were all Celtic, not an Anglo or Saxon or > Scandinavian in > the lot -- a full born blue eyed blonde haired American Celtic MUTT, > Marie, I thought we all ventured into these activities to learn some > truths and have intelligent discussions regarding theories and > possibilities, and have a bit of fun rather than be emotionally > territorial about what we think we may know and resort to name > calling > and the like. > > From some of the stuff I 've read on this board, there truly are some > very interesting and intelligent people who contribute from time to > time. Is not one as entitled to his/her own opinions as the next > whether or not anyone or everyone agrees? > > Paul, I don't know why either the representation is not broader. I > haven't been in this group long enough to know, but I actually applied > to join, and I'm wondering if those others who also fall into M222 > either do not know about the group or don't care to join. I agree > with > your premise that it would be good to have broad representation. > > I also belong to the Ireland YDNA project, and there are numerous > individuals in that project who fit the M222 profile who seem to be > naming environs other than Ulster or Scotland. Most of these projects > are elective, so I'm thinking that none are being excluded. > > Hope everyone has a great eve. Susan > > > > On 8/19/2011 10:54 AM, tuulen wrote: > > Hi, Susan, > > > > Great story, and thank you for writing it! > > > > I am M222 and have a surname which could be either Irish or > Scottish, > > and so I fit right into that story, too. > > > > Doug > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Susan Hedeen > > <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> > > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net>>> wrote: > > > > and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended > > brain is > > as the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written > word-- as > > far as > > keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in > handy at > > times like this. > > > > Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic > > signature. > > We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti > of Gaul > > > > Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the > > Galatians -- > > the famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after > attempting to > > conquer Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. > > > > Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends > involving these > > Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was > tin, and tin > > mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What > > was the > > best mode of transport? Boat. > > > > These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some > > literature had some fairly vast trade routes among > themselves that > > extended in time also previous to the Roman conquest. > > > > M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; > however at > > this juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the > testing pool > > reveals the highest concentration from tested subjects who > either yet > > reside in those environs or claim those environs as their > genealogical > > point of origin -- that place of their anecdotal family > stories -- > > that > > place from which their oldest know ancestor came from. > > > > There are remnants of it, however coming from those who > claim other > > environs as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and > more also > > places where these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade > routes. > > > > What do people do at times when extinction seems a > possibility? They > > MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they > > settle > > provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do > they do when > > the environs they migrate to become over populated and > sustaining the > > increased population becomes difficult? A portion of the > population > > breaks off and MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? > Over > > time; > > however in the short term they help one another in Trade. > > > > These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. > Where is the > > last bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. > > Where yet > > are the highest concentrations? The more remote of those > locations. > > > > Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't > think so, but > > it flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest > > previous > > to that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and > > back and > > forth. Deciding that question is like the chicken and the > egg. Even > > those tribes said to be indigenous migrated in, but because > they were > > there when the next bunch of migrants marched in, they then > became > > indigenous. > > > > Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than > > anywhere > > else statistically? Think about the migration stories > again. We know > > that they migrated back and forth between Ireland and > Scotland in > > addition to raiding, trading wives and all the like in all > the various > > lore and legends. Where was the last place the Scots who bailed > > out to > > at the time the English were dissolving the clans? They went to > > Ulster. Where did the go after that? The American > Colonies, Canada, > > Australia, New Zealand -- and some stayed in Ulster along > side of > > their > > ancient ancestral tribes long forgotten as such. > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com> > > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com>> with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com> with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > the message > >