FYI Dallán Forgaill (also Dallán Forchella; Dallán of Cluain Dalláin, fl. AD 597) was an early Christian Irish poet best known as the writer of the Amra Choluim Chille ("Eulogy of Colm Cille"). He was the Chief Ollam of Ireland .The early Irish poem Rop tú mo baile, the basis of the modern English hymn Be Thou My Vision, is sometimes attributed to him. According to the Life of St. Dallán in the Acta Sanctorum Hiberniae, he was the son of Colla, son of Erc, a descendant of the legendary High King Colla Uais. His mother was called Forchella, and his given name was Eochaid. His first cousin was St.Mogue and his fourth cousin was Saint Tigernach of Clones. The Acta and the preface to the Amra Choluim Chille agree he was born in Maigen (now Ballyconnell), the eastern edge of the territory of the Masraige of Magh Slécht in modern County Cavan. He was not a member of the Masraige but belonged to a branch of the Airgíalla called the Fir Lurg who were in the process of spreading southwards into Fermanagh and Cavan. The barony of Lurg in County Fermanagh was named after them.[1] The Liber Sanctorum says he studied so intensively he lost his sight, earning the nickname Dallán ("little blind one").[2] The preface to the Amra also says he was chief poet (ollamh) of Ireland as well as a scholar of Latin scriptural learning.[1][3] Geoffrey Keating's History of Ireland states that Dallan helped to reform the Bardic Order at the Convention of Drumceat. He is best known for eulogies attributed to him, on the subject of contemporaneous Irish saints, namely the Amra Choluim Chille on St. Columba, Amra Senain on St. Senan, and Amra Connaill for St. Connall. The poems, rarely translated, were of such obscure language that subsequent scribes included copious glosses on the poems. The best example is the Amra Choluim Chille, wherein the glosses contain poems in themselves, some of which deal with the Fenian Cycle.[citation needed] He is said to have written the Amra Choluim Chille shortly after the death of Colm Cille in 597, because Colm Cille had successfully saved the poets from expulsion from Ireland at the assembly of Druim Cett in 575. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 9:16 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 261 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Sandy Paterson) 2. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Iain Kennedy) 3. Why is it wrong to assume a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now? (Iain Kennedy) 4. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Sandy Paterson) 5. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Iain Kennedy) 6. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 (Robert Reid) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000701cc5fdf$273014f0$75903ed0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bernard Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of McHarg/Mac Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with matches at DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin though. I think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? Jerry, Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, however I hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. Brynes?s argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that closeness to Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:04:46 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W11C1219C593298547F7E76A92C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill...?it is the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of Ulster.' I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere > which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:36:36 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: [R-M222] Why is it wrong to assume a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W355E544EF69A787C2CC48A92C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Last night I was reading the DNA articles and discussions on the eupedia site. One interesting post was this one where it was argued that not only should we not use modern distribution to determine the origin of a haplogroup (commonly accepted, see origins of R1b) but neither should we use STR diversity, which I have argued for before on this list. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25644-Why-it-is-wrong-to-assume- that-a-haplogroup-originated-where-it-is-most-frequent-now I don't know who the poster is or whether he has any relevant qualifications. He gives the age of M222 as 3000ybp but doesn't cite a reference or any data to back this up. Some of the maps and tables are excellent although they are high level compared with M222. I was however interested to see that it makes Wales to have a higher R1b concentration than either Ireland or Scotland, albeit based on rather thin data. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml Main portal page is http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/ Iain ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:41:10 +0100 From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000001cc5ff7$398107a0$ac8316e0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Iain Do you know much about Slaine of Brega? Perhaps a wild guess, but how about Donnshleibhe/Slaine/Slavens? Adamnan also interests me. The Cain of Adomnain was also known as the Law of Adomnan (Oxford DNB). Could some Cains or variants have derived their surname from the Cain of Adomnain? Could the Lag in Lagman come from the same source? DYS446=15 is present in Lamont, Cain variants and Slavens. The M222 modal value is 13. Speculative, I know, but if the DNA ties in with the onomastics, there may be something in it. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: 21 August 2011 11:05 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill...?it is the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of Ulster.' I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere > which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:08:29 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W1014A728ED9929FD287499A92C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sandy, I wouldn't want to comment from a linguistic point of view. Aed Slaine is mentioned in several places by Hughes whose interest was in locating where various sources were written and what political motives lay behind their entries.? 'the early annals were interested in the Ui Neill overlords, but they were especially interested in the descendants of Aed Slaine. They were part of the southern Ui Neill, some of them were among the overlords, but some were minor kings of Brega, the area which is now Co. Louth and the east of Meath'. The other place he is discussed is in the section on Muirchu's Life of St Patrick which survives in a transcription in the Book of Armagh but was actually written a century earlier, c. 700-ish. This source doesn't seem to have such a good reputation for accuracy as Adomnan (and strictly speaking isn't an original anyway). 'One, at least, of Muirchu's aims was to attach Armagh to the Ui Neill, who were now clearly in the ascendant... the future of Armagh had to lie with the Ui Neill, as Muirchu's Life recognised. The Ui Neill overlords between 658 and 695 were all Brega kings, descendants of Aed Slaine, and it is interesting that the annals are concerned with that area, where Armagh later had her own steward. The written sources for the Ui Neill annal entries may go back to this period in the later seventh century when Armagh was accumulating material to support her own claims and was anxious to link herself with Ui Neill power'. Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:41:10 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > Iain > > Do you know much about Slaine of Brega? > > Perhaps a wild guess, but how about > > Donnshleibhe/Slaine/Slavens? > > Adamnan also interests me. The Cain of Adomnain was also known as the > Law of Adomnan (Oxford DNB). Could some Cains or variants have derived > their surname from the Cain of Adomnain? Could the Lag in Lagman come > from the same source? DYS446=15 is present in Lamont, Cain variants > and Slavens. The > M222 modal value is 13. Speculative, I know, but if the DNA ties in > with the onomastics, there may be something in it. > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy > Sent: 21 August 2011 11:05 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify > all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, > particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. > 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' > and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of > the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is > purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the > Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site > and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: > 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a > surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal > Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of > whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son > Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also > overlord of the Ui Neill... it is the Life, not the annals, which > tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a > major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of Ulster.' > I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not > even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? > > Iain > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available > > somewhere which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:15:46 -0400 From: "Robert Reid" <rreid002@insight.rr.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000001cc6004$7081eb40$5185c1c0$@insight.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please let me state, I am no expert on this but was probably written before 596 since that was the date Aed died, King of Cenel Conaill. Aed that commissioned the work, Amrae Coluim Cille, being his relative. You wanted reference to Conall Gulban being the son of Niall. We all know it can't be Conal Cremthanne as he is of the Southern Ui Neill. As we know, Colum Cille died ~ 593 AD. Aed was the great-grandson of Fergus and Colum Cille was the grandson of Fergus. As the poem relates, Fergus was the son of Conall, son of Neill. This can be googled at http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/amra_columcille.htmlhttp://www.maryjones.us/c texts/amra_columcille.html This is one of the earliest sources (not written 8th-10th centuries) of Colum Cille's genealogy at such an early date. Most experts don't know what to do with it but think its likely around 600 AD before Aed's death if he so commissioned it. Amra Of St Columba PREFACE TO THE AMRA OF ST. COLUMBA. The place for the Amra usque in finein, i.e. the bit of land that is between Fene in UI Tigernan in Meath up to Dun na n-Airbed in the district of Masraige eastward of Irarus, or of Chechtraige Slecht from Breifne of Connaught; i.e. for Dallan. [For] Colum Cille son of Feidlimid, son of Fergus, son of Conall, son of Neill, Dallan wrote this. Now this is the third cause for which Colum Cille came, viz. a refusal that Ireland's kings around Aed mac Ainmerech put on Ireland's poets; for it was owing to the multitude of the poets and to their burdensomeness that Ireland's men were not able to find out what to do with them; for the person who was satirised there, if he did not immediately die, there used to grow poisonous ulcers upon him, till he was conspicuous to everybody, and till there was deformity upon him always; but upon the poet himself grew the ulcers, and he used to die immediately, if it was without fault that he satirised. Now the poets were at Ibar of Cinntracht in the territory of Ulster, for Ulster's king gave them 'coigny' three years, or (may be) one whole year there. And it was then they set themselves to invent stories, but they were wholly unable (to do it) as they used to tell them; but to impose them on the wholly rude race among whom they were, ready-tongued poets concocted the lying fables. Well, a message came from Ireland's poets to Colum Cille, to the effect that it was to them he should come before he went to Druim Cetta, the place where the kings were who refused them. And so they invoked God's name upon the head of Colum Cille and of the Christian faith ... was brought under his protection to Druim Cetta. There came afterwards Colum Cille as he came from his boat, seven twenties his number (of followers), ut poeta dixit: Forty priests his number, twenty bishops lofty power at the psalm-singing without dispute, fifty deacons, thirty students. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 3:00 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Another theory on Connachta origins (Yair Davidiy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:28:22 +0200 From: Yair Davidiy <britam@netvision.net.il> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Another theory on Connachta origins To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <0LQ900EMGLZCEA00@mxout2.netvision.net.il> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed At 04:56 AM 8/21/2011, you wrote: > > >In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > >I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the >Belgae tribes of the Rhine... M222 is present on the Continent, especially in the west. Some of it may originate form Irish immigrants many of whom did go to Europe. Others are probably local. Has anybody done any work on this?? Do the family names say anything? Are there local concentrations?? Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 ****************************************** ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 261 ******************************************

Please let me state, I am no expert on this but was probably written before 596 since that was the date Aed died, King of Cenel Conaill. Aed that commissioned the work, Amrae Coluim Cille, being his relative. You wanted reference to Conall Gulban being the son of Niall. We all know it can't be Conal Cremthanne as he is of the Southern Ui Neill. As we know, Colum Cille died ~ 593 AD. Aed was the great-grandson of Fergus and Colum Cille was the grandson of Fergus. As the poem relates, Fergus was the son of Conall, son of Neill. This can be googled at http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/amra_columcille.htmlhttp://www.maryjones.us/c texts/amra_columcille.html This is one of the earliest sources (not written 8th-10th centuries) of Colum Cille's genealogy at such an early date. Most experts don't know what to do with it but think its likely around 600 AD before Aed's death if he so commissioned it. Amra Of St Columba PREFACE TO THE AMRA OF ST. COLUMBA. The place for the Amra usque in finein, i.e. the bit of land that is between Fene in UI Tigernan in Meath up to Dun na n-Airbed in the district of Masraige eastward of Irarus, or of Chechtraige Slecht from Breifne of Connaught; i.e. for Dallan. [For] Colum Cille son of Feidlimid, son of Fergus, son of Conall, son of Neill, Dallan wrote this. Now this is the third cause for which Colum Cille came, viz. a refusal that Ireland's kings around Aed mac Ainmerech put on Ireland's poets; for it was owing to the multitude of the poets and to their burdensomeness that Ireland's men were not able to find out what to do with them; for the person who was satirised there, if he did not immediately die, there used to grow poisonous ulcers upon him, till he was conspicuous to everybody, and till there was deformity upon him always; but upon the poet himself grew the ulcers, and he used to die immediately, if it was without fault that he satirised. Now the poets were at Ibar of Cinntracht in the territory of Ulster, for Ulster's king gave them 'coigny' three years, or (may be) one whole year there. And it was then they set themselves to invent stories, but they were wholly unable (to do it) as they used to tell them; but to impose them on the wholly rude race among whom they were, ready-tongued poets concocted the lying fables. Well, a message came from Ireland's poets to Colum Cille, to the effect that it was to them he should come before he went to Druim Cetta, the place where the kings were who refused them. And so they invoked God's name upon the head of Colum Cille and of the Christian faith ... was brought under his protection to Druim Cetta. There came afterwards Colum Cille as he came from his boat, seven twenties his number (of followers), ut poeta dixit: Forty priests his number, twenty bishops lofty power at the psalm-singing without dispute, fifty deacons, thirty students. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 3:00 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Another theory on Connachta origins (Yair Davidiy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:28:22 +0200 From: Yair Davidiy <britam@netvision.net.il> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Another theory on Connachta origins To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <0LQ900EMGLZCEA00@mxout2.netvision.net.il> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed At 04:56 AM 8/21/2011, you wrote: > > >In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > >I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the >Belgae tribes of the Rhine... M222 is present on the Continent, especially in the west. Some of it may originate form Irish immigrants many of whom did go to Europe. Others are probably local. Has anybody done any work on this?? Do the family names say anything? Are there local concentrations?? Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 ******************************************

Jerry, Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, however I hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. Brynes’s argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that closeness to Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. There are two problems with quoting MacFirbis, the Ua Dalaigh of Corca Adaim doesn't have a pedigree and as O'Donovan points out their appearance in the 14th century topographical poem never says that they are Cenel Maine (nor do there entries in the annals). http://books.google.com/books?id=Vr0_AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=%22Corca+Adaim%22&source=bl&ots=8xEfwT7QHf&sig=oAL3mcE7we6IgsZIY7weXGEq5yE&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22Corca%20Adaim%22&f=false Second, the Ua Dalaigh of Fir Cell are not the same as Ua Dalaigh of Corca Adaim, for according to the Book of Ballymote they where members of Sil Conaing of Cenel Conail mac Fergusa of Ui Fiachach (i.e. Cenel Fiachach) and nothing to do with Cenel Maine. "Clann Cathbadh .i. .H. Brosnachan mc. Tnuthgaili mc. Duibdathuath mc. Comarcaidh mc. Condmaidh & .H. Dalaich m. Tnuthgaili & .H. Uighrechain & Mc. Eolbraind mc. Duibdatuath & .H. Ninneachan mc. Fianamail mc. Cellaig m. Dungaili." from the Book of Ballymote. Here is a quick survey of the major surnames of ui néill in deiscirt: O Coindelbain of Ui Laegairi, we have M222+ results with this surname O Molloy of Fir Cell, we have M222+ results with this surname Mageoghan of Cenél Fiachach, we have M222+ results with this surname Fox of Muinter Tadgáin, we have M222+ results with this surname Magawly of Calrige, we have M222+ results with this surname O Braoin of Bregmaine, we have M222+ results with this surname MagCargamni of Cuircne, we have M222+ results with this surname O Daly of Corca Duin, we have M222+ results with this surname O Quin of Munter Gilgain, we have M222+ results with this surname I wonder do any of these M222+ individuals will proved the existance of Southern Ui Neill M222+ families? Bernard.

In a message dated 8/20/2011 11:16:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, berna rdmorgan@hotmail.com writes: Which experts? You may have seen John's posting as to the origin of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. I've seen the arguement that Eoghain and Conaill (like Maine) are missing from early Irish sources (i.e. the lives of St Patrick). Bernard, I just checked the Tripartite Life of Patrick (Whitley Stokes edition). In his introduction he states the material was written in the middle 10th century or more probably the 11th century. I'm not sure how great a source this is. "Patrick then goes to the Assembly of Telltown, to the sons of Niall. Maine believed in him, and he was afterwards baptized. But Coirpre, son of Niall, opposed him, and the name which Patrick gave him was God s Foe, and Patrick said that his children should serve his brother s children for ever ; and that neither kings nor bishops nor wise men should spring from him, and that his land would be little ; and the issue was so. But Conall (i.e., Cremthann , son of Niall, believed, and was baptized, and gave the stead where he was biding to Patrick, and a church was built there which And of his seed are the Clann-Colmain, and the seed of Aed Slaine." This mentions the sons of Niall including Maine, Ciorpre and Conal Cremthainn. There are other references to Loegaire, son of Niall, Conall gulban and Eoghan. I'm not sure if there is a reference to Fiachach or Enna. Haven't had time to check. Elsewhere we read about the sons of Erc, Fergus Mor, Angus and Loarn which raises red flags for me. I think the Senchus Fir nAlban was written in about the same time period. That's also about the date of the Laud 610 genealogies. Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere which mentions Niall or his sons? John

In reply to John: The link sent to you was in regard to a question that you posed to me about an irregularity you believed you viewed on some Scottish Clan web site. I cautioned you at the time that not all the information found in some of these web sites was either accurate nor full of explanations, nor the histories complete etc. and I stated that I would send you some information. I've some which I have intended to pdf to you but haven't gotten around to it yet. The question/comment you posed to me had to do with Scottish Clans. *I simply sent you a link which has interesting information*, however I did *not *discuss or mention either Irish Septs *NORanything else Irish*. So, I am perplexed regarding your comment below. In regard to the link that you sent me, it sent me to an advertisement. I never got into the page you intended for me to look at. Be that as it may, regarding your comments other, frankly, I believe that if you are going to comment on any one's posts that you keep the post in context rather than pull a paragraph here or there to reply to. In general I have found some of your replies using this method missing the point of the posts (not just mine), sometimes nearly confrontational, and otherwise also contradicting your self in in regard to conversations elsewhere. The point here is, it could very well be that the reason you may be confused or not understand someone's premise is that you have this habit of pulling a paragraph here or there out of someone's communication thereby taking it out of context and then ambush the person with what I would characterize your authority to disagree. Well it is perfectly fine for you to disagree and share your opinions as I would assume everyone else in the group is entitled as well, but there are better ways to go about it. I believe we all are interested, obviously, in M222 or we would not be in the group. The comment of not caring was not that I don't care about *learning the truth as I am *(as I believe all of us are), but the fact that *none of us know the truths yet*. You and Bill yourselves have commented that the current popular opinions are lacking, made too hastily, and there is lots of work to be done in the hope to come to any conclusion. *If you yet agree with yourself, well you will note that I have consistently agreed with you.* But in the discussion regarding origins of M222 which many suspect yet none are sure (*even Wilson has qualified his *enthusiasm) among some there is such emotional investment in it being in Ireland that all further investigation seems not even a matter of consideration. For the record, I am not anti-Nial. I am not anti anything beyond to jumping to conclusions on evidence which is not yet complete. I believe that any and all methods of investigation are valid and should be employed; however, I also believe that many of these answers are going to come from a *comprehensive look *at the *values revealed by all the testing results to date* coupled with *more testing which need be done, broadening the geographical areas to include those environs other than where we currently find the highest concentrations,* and *following migration patterns of the ancestors of the currently tested * M222 carriers. As an example, our M222 matches are bringing up environs of origin other than Ireland and Scotland. Switzerland most mentioned other than Scotland first followed by Ireland, which percentage wise when considering the numbers tested claiming Ireland is statistically the same as that of Switzerland in the ancestral origin matches. So why is that? Did an Irishman or Scot move to Switzerland and procreate leaving M222 behind, or is M222 there because it may have been left when the migrations east to west were occurring? I do not know the answer to that, but I would think it would be good to investigate it further. Hypothetically, if it were left behind during east to west migrations, then quite likely it is even older than what you & Bill estimated when you suggested it was formed up in Scotland. Other M222 carriers are getting M222 matches from France, Germany and Switzerland and Scandinavia as well. Once the certain migration & residence data is exhausted, beyond a certain point migrations nearly have to be extrapolated and assumed to some extent, and likely the surname analysis will help define some of those environs. I hope this clarifies thing for you...Susan On 8/20/2011 9:54 PM, Lochlan@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:10:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: > > You should find this site interesting & informative. > > http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/scottish-clan-septs.html > > That is very much old hat. The link I sent you on Scottish surnames > said much the same thing. > There is a difference between Irish septs and Scottish clans and their > supposed septs. You would know that if you studied Irish history and > studied a few of the Irish sept DNA projects. I'd recommend all of > the Trinity college articles on the M222 web site as a starting > point. I find your anti-Niall rants ill informed and tedious. No one > in Ireland really cares if they are descended from Niall or not. I > don't. But that's what the genealogies say so if you'll pardon us we > will continue to investigate the possibility. > John > >

Ré: Tábhacht Ghinealais / Importance of Genealogy A chairde, Scríobh mé alt gearr le déanaí ar thábhacht ghinealais i sochaí Ghaelach. Is féidir é a fháil ag: / I wrote a short article recently about the importance of genealogy in Gaelic society. You can find it at: http://www.irishtribes.com/article-importance-of-genealogy-master.html Iarrfaidh mé alt a scríobh ar Sheanchas timpieall gach cúpla seachtain. / I’ll try to write an article on Seanchas every couple of weeks. Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that will be helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry

In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the Belgae tribes of the Rhine... I found an old post of Paul's that referred to a book by Tom O'Connor entitled "Hand of History - Burden of Pseudo-History..Touchstone of truth. You can read a little about it from this web site: _http://www.handofhistory.com/_ (http://www.handofhistory.com/) "Two ancient roadways, Slighe Mór and Slighe Dála, converged on Turoe/Knocknadala. Rot na Ri, the Royal Road of the Kings, ran straight from Turoe/Knocknadala to the renowned ancient seaport of Ath Cliath Magh Rí at Clarenbridge in Galway Bay. Legendary history states that " Ath Cliath Magh Rí was the chief seaport of Ireland through which Ireland has most often been invaded ' 6 . A dindshenchas tale tells that " the swift ships which sailed the high seas frequented Ath Cliath Magh Ri in Galway of the harbours " 7 . It was there that a large segment of the Celtic invasion force landed before advancing on Turoe, the core of its primary settlement area, as recorded in the dindshenchas of Cnoc na Dála 5 . Several segments of Belgic tribes from Britain and the Continent, such as the Manapi, the Atrebates and the Canti (from Kent), are remembered in townland names within this vast Turoe oppidum complex. Who were these Celts and where did they come from? Large segments of the Northern Continental Belgae fled to southeast England from Roman and Germanic conquest in Caesar's time. In 27/26 BC as preparations for a massive Roman invasion of Britain proceeded some considerable way before being cancelled, Commius, king of Belgae in the Silchester, Winchester and Chichester/ Selsey regions of the south of England, led a folk-movement of his subjects to the Shannon estuary in the West of Ireland. There they are recorded by Ptolemy as the Ganngáni 2 , the decendants of Gann which was the genuine Celtic name of Commius, the Romanised form of his name. His descendants expanded north into Connacht where Déla, Gann's grandson, landed his invasion force at the great seaport of Ath Clee Magh Rí in Galway Bay and advanced inland to set up court on the Hill of Dail (Cnoc na nDála, Knocknadala today) beside Turoe (Cnoc Temhro) 5 . There he established the famous Feis Temhro as recorded in Irish legendary history. From there his descendants, the ancient Fir Belg (Belgae, the Romanised form of their name) of Connacht pushed the aboriginal Cruthin, the men of Ulster, inexorably north-eastwards over the following centuries. The two Regia of Ptolemy's Irish record were the Capitals of these two warring provinces. The warfare involved is recorded in Ireland's oldest legendary history, the Ulidian Tales. This is further corroborated by vestiges of the great linear embankments thrown up by both parties as boundary fortificatious which scar the face of the Celtic Irish landscape to this day and tell of the ferocity of the long drawn-out warfare between the Fir Belg of Connacht and the men of Ulster. These facts of history were suppressed by pseudo-historians of the Ui Neill warlords and the monastic federation of Armagh in favour of their own concocted glorification. As this Turoe oppidum was of major importance in the late Irish Iron Age, its identification and recovery calls for a total re-evaluation of the origins and history of Celtic Ireland". Not having a copy of this book it's hard to follow the train of thought but it appears to say the Connachta were descended from Gann (from whom the Gangani of Ptolemy's map) and were the Fir Bolg (Belgae) of Irish history. It's theory in a published book. Make of it what you will. John

In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the Belgae tribes of the Rhine... I found an old post of Paul's that referred to a book by Tom O'Connor entitled "Hand of History - Burden of Pseudo-History..Touchstone of truth. You can read a little about it from this web site: _http://www.handofhistory.com/_ (http://www.handofhistory.com/) "Two ancient roadways, Slighe Mór and Slighe Dála, converged on Turoe/Knocknadala. Rot na Ri, the Royal Road of the Kings, ran straight from Turoe/Knocknadala to the renowned ancient seaport of Ath Cliath Magh Rí at Clarenbridge in Galway Bay. Legendary history states that " Ath Cliath Magh Rí was the chief seaport of Ireland through which Ireland has most often been invaded ' 6 . A dindshenchas tale tells that " the swift ships which sailed the high seas frequented Ath Cliath Magh Ri in Galway of the harbours " 7 . It was there that a large segment of the Celtic invasion force landed before advancing on Turoe, the core of its primary settlement area, as recorded in the dindshenchas of Cnoc na Dála 5 . Several segments of Belgic tribes from Britain and the Continent, such as the Manapi, the Atrebates and the Canti (from Kent), are remembered in townland names within this vast Turoe oppidum complex. Who were these Celts and where did they come from? Large segments of the Northern Continental Belgae fled to southeast England from Roman and Germanic conquest in Caesar's time. In 27/26 BC as preparations for a massive Roman invasion of Britain proceeded some considerable way before being cancelled, Commius, king of Belgae in the Silchester, Winchester and Chichester/ Selsey regions of the south of England, led a folk-movement of his subjects to the Shannon estuary in the West of Ireland. There they are recorded by Ptolemy as the Ganngáni 2 , the decendants of Gann which was the genuine Celtic name of Commius, the Romanised form of his name. His descendants expanded north into Connacht where Déla, Gann's grandson, landed his invasion force at the great seaport of Ath Clee Magh Rí in Galway Bay and advanced inland to set up court on the Hill of Dail (Cnoc na nDála, Knocknadala today) beside Turoe (Cnoc Temhro) 5 . There he established the famous Feis Temhro as recorded in Irish legendary history. From there his descendants, the ancient Fir Belg (Belgae, the Romanised form of their name) of Connacht pushed the aboriginal Cruthin, the men of Ulster, inexorably north-eastwards over the following centuries. The two Regia of Ptolemy's Irish record were the Capitals of these two warring provinces. The warfare involved is recorded in Ireland's oldest legendary history, the Ulidian Tales. This is further corroborated by vestiges of the great linear embankments thrown up by both parties as boundary fortificatious which scar the face of the Celtic Irish landscape to this day and tell of the ferocity of the long drawn-out warfare between the Fir Belg of Connacht and the men of Ulster. These facts of history were suppressed by pseudo-historians of the Ui Neill warlords and the monastic federation of Armagh in favour of their own concocted glorification. As this Turoe oppidum was of major importance in the late Irish Iron Age, its identification and recovery calls for a total re-evaluation of the origins and history of Celtic Ireland". Not having a copy of this book it's hard to follow the train of thought but it appears to say the Connachta were descended from Gann (from whom the Gangani of Ptolemy's map) and were the Fir Bolg (Belgae) of Irish history. It's theory in a published book. Make of it what you will. John

In a message dated 8/20/2011 2:10:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time, chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: Before this time we have had thousands of years of population migrations, plagues, wars, the potato famine and life which in itself has wiped out lots of other evidences. So we now have genetic genealogy on the survivors who can afford it, peddled to the public so that we can fill in our ancestral trees (which by enlarge will yet not be filled in with any certainty beyond the time of the written record keeping) and look back into time to see who we really are, or can we really? And does it make a bit of difference really? But we are spending enormous amounts of time debating over the importance of it and how this group must be more elite than the next because of....Bah Hum Bug! I have no idea what you're talking about. Who in this group or anywhere else talked about being more elite than the next? Is this some kind of reference to Niall? Do you think being descended from Niall makes someone superior to one who is not? I don't. This sounds like a rant against DNA testing in general. If so I agree with you to some extent. DNA is not answering many of the questions I have. I've said that several times before. John

Take a look at Figure 3 of the M222 paper that John and I wrote. It can be found at: http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Paper.pdf I think that the slope can be used to determine the population of Ireland at the time the M222 SNP originated. To do that, we have to make some assumptions - 1) that the slope of the M222 relation that reflects the growth of the M222-carrying population will also be applicable to the growth of population in general. 2) that the slope does not change with time (reasonable because of the constancy of slope in Figure 3). 3) that the RCC time scale can be applied over time scales of 4000 years back in time (there is no reason to believe that it cannot be applied back to Y- Adam) 4) that events in history will affect the total population the same way that it affects the M222 SNP. With those assumptions, we can estimate the total population of Ireland in 1680 BC (the time the SNP originated) if we know the population at the birth-year of the average current testee (about 1945) and the number of testees who carry the SNP. We want to do only a crude, back-of-the-envelope computation and will settle for errors as large as a factor of 10 (an order-of-magnitude calculation). So, the population of Ireland in 1945 is estimated to be about 4.5 million people. The population of M222 was 1 in 1680 BC (from Figure 3). Figure 3 shows that the number of people in 1945 who carry the M222 SNP is probably between 700 and 1000, considering a probable incompleteness factor. (Remember all we want is a ball-park estimate; we don't have to know where they now live!). Now we operate on the first assumption — that the ratio of the current population to the population in 1680 BC will be in the same ratio derived for the M222 SNP carriers. So, the population of Ireland at the time of the M222 SNP's origin was of the order of 4500000/850, or 5000 people. But, this is for the total population in Ireland. The number of males was about half that number, or 2500 people. These people in 1680 BC will probably be located near the seacoast or along the rivers of Ireland because of food, ease of travel and mutual protection. They probably lived in clusters of perhaps 10-30 people. This means about 5000/25 or 20 family clusters. The coastline of Ireland is about 1700 miles long, so -- on average, if they are living only on the coast, each family cluster will be separated by an average of about 1700/20= 85 miles. That separation indicates that the families will probably be independent of each other. To afford protection against marauders, they may cluster in larger family groups, but this will separate the groups even farther. And if they locate themselves inland on rivers we can expand the coastline estimate to include rivers as well, driving up our 1700 mile estimate to perhaps 2300 miles. This serves to further increase the inter-family group distance to 2300/20 ~ 120 miles, further isolating the groups from each other. Many of these family groups will be inquisitive and will be aware of their nearest neighbors, but commerce between them, in this era prior to good ships, will be minimal. In fact, there may be occasional problems with assets like food that may affect one family cluster more than its neighbors and those in need might be tempted to raid nearby family clusters for survival. Hence the need to fortify the family units against their neighbors. I find this flow of thought to be interesting. I would appreciate comments from anyone who reads this list. Remember all these estimates are ball-park only. I may be off by a factor of 10 since it is a back-of-the-envelope calculation, expected to be within that order of magnitude. Its the sort of flow of thought that Enrico Fermi often posed to his friends when they went out to lunch together in Chicago. One of his most famous questions was -- Estimate the number of barbers in Chicago! This is a true, back-of-the-envelope calculation expected to be good only to about an order of magnitude, a factor of 10! Comments anyone? - Bye from Bill Howard PS - If my assumptions are correct, Figure 3 can be used in this way to calculate the origin of other SNPS and to make very crude population estimates.

Jerry, I flipped through MacNiocaill work and didn't find any reference questioning the origin of Cenel Maine. Mac Fhirbhisigh questioned one family? Father Walsh (the specialist on Westmeath) question Brecaighe origin, but not the Cenel Maine in general. No comments from Dobbs, so comes down to Brynes and his comment about conflicting pedigrees of Aed mac Brenainn? On the subject of M222 relation with the Ui Neill, where are the M222+ O'Kellys from? Sil Aed Slaine? > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:24:46 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > Bernard a chara, > > In the last few days on this list, modern historians Byrne and Mac Niocaill, > and Mac Fhirbhisigh in the 17th century. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 12:09 PM > To: dna-r1b1c7 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > Jerry, > > Which experts? You may have seen John's posting as to the origin of Cenél > nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. I've seen the arguement that Eoghain and Conaill > (like Maine) are missing from early Irish sources (i.e. the lives of St > Patrick). > > > > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:16:08 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > Go raibh maith agat, a Bernard. Inseoidh am an scéal. / Thank you, > > Bernard. Time will tell the story. > > > > In the meantime, the experts seem to think that the evidence of the > > manuscripts casts doubt on the genealogies of Cenél Maine and Uí > > Mhaine rather than on the genealogies of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. > > > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > > Jerry > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jerry, Which experts? You may have seen John's posting as to the origin of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. I've seen the arguement that Eoghain and Conaill (like Maine) are missing from early Irish sources (i.e. the lives of St Patrick). > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:16:08 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > Go raibh maith agat, a Bernard. Inseoidh am an scéal. / Thank you, > Bernard. Time will tell the story. > > In the meantime, the experts seem to think that the evidence of the > manuscripts casts doubt on the genealogies of Cenél Maine and Uí Mhaine > rather than on the genealogies of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry

There are other potential explanations. Thomas Charles-Edwards in Early Christian Ireland has an interesting take on the absence of Cenél Conaill from Tírechán, which he suggests was related to the power of the cult of Columba. He also points out that although Tírechán does not mention Cenél nÉoghain, the Tripartite Life refers to Éogan mac Néill as Patrick's faithful friend and suggests that this difference is related to political changes in the 730s. John Carey -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: August-20-11 12:09 PM To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? Jerry, Which experts? You may have seen John's posting as to the origin of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. I've seen the arguement that Eoghain and Conaill (like Maine) are missing from early Irish sources (i.e. the lives of St Patrick). > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:16:08 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > Go raibh maith agat, a Bernard. Inseoidh am an scéal. / Thank you, > Bernard. Time will tell the story. > > In the meantime, the experts seem to think that the evidence of the > manuscripts casts doubt on the genealogies of Cenél Maine and Uí > Mhaine rather than on the genealogies of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bernard a chara, In the last few days on this list, modern historians Byrne and Mac Niocaill, and Mac Fhirbhisigh in the 17th century. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 12:09 PM To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? Jerry, Which experts? You may have seen John's posting as to the origin of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. I've seen the arguement that Eoghain and Conaill (like Maine) are missing from early Irish sources (i.e. the lives of St Patrick). > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:16:08 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > Go raibh maith agat, a Bernard. Inseoidh am an scéal. / Thank you, > Bernard. Time will tell the story. > > In the meantime, the experts seem to think that the evidence of the > manuscripts casts doubt on the genealogies of Cenél Maine and Uí > Mhaine rather than on the genealogies of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Indeed, this is what they say. It does seem a bit more complicated than all of that, too which is all evidenced now by the M222 dna of the 14 McC's who have tested under the Clan Donnachaidh project. 11 of the 15 fall into 3 separate M222 groups: M222 Group A --Presently the largest group includes the 1 off model 392 = 15, 389-2 = 28. This group of 5 also includes 1 current resident of Antrim (anecdotal stories of this family include migration of 3 brothers from Isle of Bute to Antrim during the plantation days). 2 (of this group of 5) immigrant ancestors hopped the pond to PA during the mid-1700's, while immigration time of the other two is unknown to the project. There are 5 variant spellings in this group of 5 (although with this name one should never classify by spelling). Of the 5 the off model signature appears to be the oldest. M222 Group B Presently has 2 tested members and 2 spellings. 1 of the two appears to have a signature older than the Nial group of 4 and older than the A group of 5. Group A & B quite probably intersected in the ancient past. M222 Nial Group has 4 tested members and 2 variant spellings considered classically and exclusively Scot spellings of McConkey and McConchie. This Nial group isn't even remotely related to the other 7 M222, although there may be an intersection with the oldest of the Group B signatures even farther back than that intersection with group A -- maybe. As previously mentioned, it appears that one of the M222 group B signatures is oldest among these M222. 2 different phylogenetic trees using two different analytical models have been applied to these M222 McCs with the results about the same. The other 3 McC's of this project fall into 3 separate groups: 1 is an R1b which is probably M222 but only 12 markers tested, and it could be an on site Scotland sample as the project is actively testing in both Ireland and Scotland. 1 other McC is E1b1b1 male progenitor probably Roman, none the less the issue were associated with one of the later known clans. 1 other Mcc is I1 and has a signature similar to some I1 Robertson(s) in the project. No genealogical relatedness has been identified among any of the McC's in the project, and several have their genealogies solid back into the 1st quarter of the 1700's. Now of further interest is the fact that McC M222 group A intersects with Duncan Group B (also M222) of the Donnachaidh project. There are too many close matches to count. This group consists of about 36/7 Duncan, several Ashly, a couple of Davis (probably originally Davisson of Davidson), Lawson, McAinich, McKinney, Gallagher, Mann, Murphy, and others and if I missed any not intentional. The McC's are interesting because as Mr. Ashley's note suggests the name is affiliated with several clans and what the victorian era decided to classify as septs. Those of the name marched with the Bruce, held leadership positions in both Campbell and Robertson, held the deed to Isle of Bute for over 300 years, and fled to (or back to) Ireland during the 1600's remaining there to immigrate out. It is interesting presently among the M222 definitions as well due to the fact that of the very small testing pool of 14 thus far 11 are M222 but fall into 3 separate M222 groups. Statistically, I believe this could be useful. I've been trying to sell that idea to John & Bill for further research, but they have not become interested yet. Some McCs also remained in Scotland post plantation years to Immigrate out or be transported out by the English during the 1700's as they were annihilating the clan system. The name is yet prevalent in both Ireland and Scotland today yet as a surname much in the minority to the more popular versions more anglicized such as Duncan which is actually a Saxon derivative, Robertson, Reid, etc -- and surname usage is another topic. Hard to find any 2 McCs who spell their name the same sometimes even in the same genetically related family. Susan On 8/20/2011 8:48 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in > Pittsburgh (GAshley923@aol.com) > 2. Re: A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library > in Pittsburgh (tuulen) > 3. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 M222 (Robert Reid) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 07:11:42 EDT > From: GAshley923@aol.com > Subject: [R-M222] A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie > Library in Pittsburgh > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<136c3.6491a871.3b80f06e@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a > family of > Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient > records > in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in > Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive > me for > not keeping the book name for reference) ???The MacConaghy, MacConkey, > MacDonagh, > Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal > name > Donnchadh, meaning ???brown warrior??? (from donn and cath). This gives > the personal > names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the MacDonaghs, > Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a > branch of > the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac > Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In > Co > Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh Ceallach > Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth > century. > However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally > well > known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat > Duncan > (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in > the > fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. > The > MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan Robertson, > their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ???h??? after > the ???D??? makes > it silent, thus sounding as Mac???onachie.) Also, after the 1745 > rebellion, many > members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their > identity. > There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which, > the > MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the > fourteenth-century > Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies > descend from > the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second > wife. > There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In > Ulster all > this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also > an > Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of > Donachie > and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as > well as > Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty, > MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn. > Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim. > Donaghy > is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties > Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.??? > Some McConnaghy???s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider > themselves > Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both, > considering that > the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient > times, and > MacConahy???s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention > that many > moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer > to > say Scotch-Irish for most of us. > Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay, > McConaughy, > McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea, > MacConahie, > MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie, > McConaghy, > McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc. > This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one particular > family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found > under half > a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was > always > spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no > idea how > to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the > scribe who > wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled. > Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your > particular > spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a > future > newsletter > > > _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_ > (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:48:19 -0400 > From: tuulen<tuulen@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie > Library in Pittsburgh > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CABbuToz9TDhhkcKgySwfQPFOsa3ZdoOX3gBjOZ2O17iSa=3aHA@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Hi, > > Your name is Ashley? My maternal grandmother's name was Ashley, from New > Bedford, Massachusetts. > > Doug > > > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:11 AM,<GAshley923@aol.com> wrote: > >> The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a >> family of >> Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient >> records >> in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in >> Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive >> me for >> not keeping the book name for reference) ???The MacConaghy, MacConkey, >> MacDonagh, >> Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal >> name >> Donnchadh, meaning ???brown warrior??? (from donn and cath). This gives >> the personal >> names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the >> MacDonaghs, >> Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a >> branch of >> the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac >> Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In >> Co >> Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh >> Ceallach >> Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth >> century. >> However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally >> well >> known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat >> Duncan >> (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in >> the >> fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. >> The >> MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan >> Robertson, >> their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ???h??? after >> the ???D??? makes >> it silent, thus sounding as Mac???onachie.) Also, after the 1745 >> rebellion, many >> members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their >> identity. >> There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which, >> the >> MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the >> fourteenth-century >> Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies >> descend from >> the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second >> wife. >> There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In >> Ulster all >> this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also >> an >> Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of >> Donachie >> and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as >> well as >> Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty, >> MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn. >> Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim. >> Donaghy >> is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties >> Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.?? >> Some McConnaghy???s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider >> themselves >> Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both, >> considering that >> the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient >> times, and >> MacConahy???s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention >> that many >> moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer >> to >> say Scotch-Irish for most of us. >> Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay, >> McConaughy, >> McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea, >> MacConahie, >> MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie, >> McConaghy, >> McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc. >> This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one >> particular >> family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found >> under half >> a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was >> always >> spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no >> idea how >> to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the >> scribe who >> wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled. >> Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your >> particular >> spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a >> future >> newsletter >> >> >> _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_ >> (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html) >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:48:41 -0400 > From: "Robert Reid"<rreid002@insight.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 M222 > To:<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<000301cc5f37$7d8526e0$788f74a0$@insight.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Perhaps one of the best cases for West to East migration is Colum Cille > (gaelic Dove of the Chuch, Iona - Hebrew Dove& Latin Columba Dove). I tried > to put down my purported connection. Unfortunately the arrows did not > transfer!!! So sorry. Adomnan (founder of Dull Monastery in Atholl) 7th > century states Columba was the son of Feidlimid, and great grandson of > Conall Gulban. We know he went to Iona ~ 563 AD and the Kindred of Columba > (12 men who went with him, although a couple on his mother's side) were the > ancestors of Clan Donnachaidh in the Atholl, part of Perth. These early > Abbots married& had children in the kindred. I have Crinan (Kindred of > Columba) to Alexander Robertson (who started the Reid sept ~ 1450 AD) > straight back to Cenell Conaill. This is classic West to East from Donegal. > As to the 2 epicenters of M222 in Ireland, my thoughts are that one was from > the northern Ui Neills (16.7% Trinity study) and the other from the brothers > of Niall at Connacht (10% epicenter Trinity study). No other epicenters in > Europe. L21 ~ 4000 years ago in Gaul (France?0 and M269 ~ 6000 years ago > around Causasus. M222 around 1500-2000 years ago NW Ireland. That the M222 > did not start with Niall is evident, as his brothers present day clans carry > M222. Thus Muighmheadoin could have been the earliest progenitor, but could > be a few generations back in NW Ireland. That Niall spread the marker > logarithmicly as did Ghenghis Khan (who like Niall was not the progenitor of > his marker) was brought about by prestige& position as the Trinity report > cites. As we know Columba was celibate but his kindred started the abbeys in > Atholl and I am probably off of Crinan ancestry (Montcreiffe& Skeene - > Crinan ancestor of Conall Gulban). I see no East to West from Scotland > movement in Clan Donnachaidh or no steady state Ireland& Scotland modal as > viewed by Campbell& some archaeologists. I think O'Rially's theory is quite > plausible with the Q Celts. We know that Adomnan mentioned no Gaels in St > Columbas' wanderings in Pictland but needed interpreters. So in my case, I > got a good feeling about coming through Niall as do other Robertsons, > Duncans& Reids who carry the M222 marker. > > > > Direct Paternal Ancestry of Robert Reid Y-Chromosome R-M222 SNP > > Eochaidh Muighmheadoin Son of Muiredach Tireach, King of Meath > > > Niall Noigiallachd. C455 AD Niall of the Nine Hostages > > Conall Gulban progenitor of the Cen?l Conaill, King of Tir Conaill d. 464 AD > > > Fergus Cendfota son of Conall Gulban > > > ?Kindred? of Colum Cille (Columba) > Sons of Fergus Cendfota: S?tnae, Feidlimid, Br?nainn, Ninnad. All four sons > produced Abbots of Iona. St Columba celibate, son of Feidlimid Abbots of > Iona 563 ? 700 AD > > > Lugaid (Cenel Lugdech)? son of S?tnae, conjectured by Sir Iain Moncreiffe as > ancestor > of Clan Donnachaidh > > Abbots of Dull& Dunkeld, Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland 700-1000 AD ? direct > paternal lineal descent fron Conall Gulban > > > Duncan, Abthane of Dule, abbot of Dunkeld and Governor of Strathclyde b c920 > AD > > > Duncan, mormaer of Atholl and Abthane of Dule, killed 1010 AD at Battle of > Mortlach > where Malcolm II King of Scots > defeated invading Norsemaen > > Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld& Earl of Atholl d. 1045. Progenitor of Clan > Donnachaid > > > Duncan I MacCrinan, King of Scotland d. 1040 AD killed at > Burghead. > > Mael Muire (Melmare) Mormaer of Atholl appointed c1100 AD > > Madach (Madadd) 1st Earl of Atholl d. 1145 AD > Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl m. c1165 AD to Hextilda > > Duncan 3rd son of Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl > > Madach of Clunes (probable male line to Earls of Atholl) > researcher Godon MacGregor) > > Andrew de Atholia > > Duncan de Atholia d. 1355 AD > > Patrick de Atholia, First of Lude > > Alexander Reid of Strathloch, descendants called Baron Rua > ?Reid? > > Baron Reids - descendants in Strathloch, Perthshire, > Scotland c1500 - 1750 > > Industrial Revolution movement from Perth to Renfrewshire > > Mathew Reid ? resided in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland > 1839 > > > Thomas Reid ? b. 1839 Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland > > > William Thomson Reid - b. 1869 Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, Scotland > > Thomas Reid - b. 1896 Longriggrend, Lanarkshire, Scotland > > Daniel Michael Reid - b. 1922 Youngstown, Ohio > > Robert Reid - b. 1949 Youngstown, Ohio > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 1:56 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) > 2. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) > 3. Re: Speculations on Celtric Tribes (Bernard Morgan) > 4. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) > 5. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) > 6. Re: Venicones (Lochlan@aol.com) > 7. M222 in Donegal (Lochlan@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:08:40 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] j > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<28c8c.535684e6.3b807128@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 4:46:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: > > All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins > of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of > many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century > really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an > emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have > developed in Ireland? > > Most DNA experts I'm familiar with believe M222 originated in Ireland. > And the reason they think so (in the words of Ken Nordvedt) is "that's > where the haplotypes are." Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) said much the > samething in a recent book and interview, a small part of which follows: > > Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at > some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with > Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in > Scotland for hundreds of years. > > Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a > native people who spoke Gaelic anyway? > > Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland. > And this is because > we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of > DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an > incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this > Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's > over 40% - > so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one > man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the > progenitor is. > > Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical > substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland > have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. > > Wilson: I think that is the case. > > Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see > higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than > we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data > we willl see that and the case will be closed. > > > That theory is not universally held however. Dr. Faux, also of EthnoAncetry > at the time in 2006, said the following about M222 (then called R1b1c7): > > " 3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is > confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it > may occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perhps > because the first M222 emerged there). > > The only other relevant theory out there among academics belongs not to DNA > but to an Irish mythologist, O' > Rahillyh (Early Irish History and Mythology). O'Rahilly believed the Dal > Cuinn), ancestors of the Ui Neill and Connachta, were latecomers to Ireland > arriving sometime between 300 and 30 BC. He also believed they came not > from England or Scotland but from somewhere in Gaul. > > We\ve discussed this on the list numerous times before. O'Rahilly began > his book with a chapter on Ptolemy's map of Ireland. Well over half the > tribal names in Ptolemy's map are unidentifiable to modern scholars. There > is some agreement of a few of the names, including that of the Ulaidh and > Dal Riata in northern Ireland, the Brigantes in Leinster, the Iverni in > Munster and a few others. O'"Rahilly found no references to a tribe with > the name of Dal Cuinn or anything similar. In fact he said they should > have been there by 150 AD. but were not. > > O'Rahilly discussed every tribal name that appears in Ptolemy's map except > for one: the Venicnii.. > > Why he omitted this name is a mystery. It appears in every version of the > map I've seen. In a minor footnote he even mentioned the Venicones of > Scotland. > > O'Rahilly's theories are all wrapped up in linguistic divisions between P > and Q Celtic. I have ignored these since few linguists agree with him. > When you boil it down to the basics you come away with this: the Dal Cuinn > > as a tribe came to Ireland from somewhere in Gaul sometime during the Roman > era in the British Isles. > > If you accept the connection between the Dal Cuinn and M222, and the > possibility that the Dal Cuinn came from Gaul, then it is logical to assume > M222 originated in Gaul and migrated west into the British Isles. Scotland > would be the most likely first settlement; but they had boats and could > have come to Ireland at about the same time. > > If anyone knows of any other theories on the origin of the Dal Cuinn now is > the time to speak out. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:14:34 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<28ea2.3cbfdf68.3b807289@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 5:43:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > cjl315@comcast.net writes: > > Is there any belief that M-222 may have come to Ireland with the Laigin? > > There is a DNA signature associated with the Lagin of Leinster but its not > M222. > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm_ > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm) > > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 03:17:45 +0000 > From: Bernard Morgan<bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Speculations on Celtric Tribes > To:<craig@mckie.ca>, dna-r1b1c7<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<SNT128-W26919190363AA1F34ECBF6BB2D0@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > Let follow some of Craig's words >> Isolated individuals did not prosper or indeed long survive in the late > Neolithic and the early Middle Ages. > > In Ireland the basic unit of society was the derbfhine (or variant), > comprising all the patrilineal descendants over a four-generation group, > i.e., back to common great-grandfather. The derbfhine held typical five or > four rath/tech i.e. homesteads, which formed a Baile. Twenty Baile form a > Tuath or Tricha Cet, the basic kingdom level. > > Population remains constant until such things as agricultural improvements; > therefore population growth is a constant sum game, i.e. if the M222+ > population expansion is at the expense of someone else?s male descendants. > M222 population could expand territorially, however you have to wars and > tribal politics, so a simpler method is to push the weaker members of the > tribe to the edges. Smith shows this his book "Celtic Leinster". So non-M222 > population is forced to marginal land or contested frontier, and so are in > decline. (Probably also there male access to reproduction was a constant sum > game to, won by those with great recourses.) > > How this applies to M222? Well M222 would have grown in a clump for mutual > support and when large enough a clump breaks away and form new colonies. > This organic grow is what is described in the branching pedigrees and the > geographical movements can be followed in the annals. Hence have the > information to know who should be M222 (if telling the truth) due to tribal > claims. In Scotland this lack the annals its harder, yet there are Gaelic > tribal descriptions. However the Clan confederation dominates our > understanding of Scotland. Without the history and genealogical records we > know little about origin of the Gall-Gael. I think the fundamental issue > with Scotland is that no one have yet written the Gaelic history of > Scotland, or as the Scots would have described it, the Irish history of > Scotland?. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:21:50 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] j > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<702de.6e38541f.3b809e6e@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 7:54:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > donmilligan@comcast.net writes: > > I understand there are some histories of Wales, written in the early > 1900,that indicated some Irish raiders from the east central coast of > Ireland came into Wales and some of them settled in Wales. > Some of these Irish raiders were likely Celtic M-222+. Their descendants > mixed in with the Welsh Celts, and spread all the way into northern > England, southern Scotland, and northeastern Scotland. > > There's a fair amount about that in the literature. Google flight of the > Deisi to find some of it. There aren't many specific Irish tribes named > though. I think the Ui Liathain are another. There are also notices of a > northern British tribe returning to northern Wales to throw out the Irish > kings. And in Irish sources a statement that the Irish kings spent as much > > time in Wales as in Ireland. Nothing specific though. Nothing to tie in > with M222 although you can't rule it out. > > > The following is from Wikipedia: > > " > The U? Liath?in are known from both Irish and _British_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) sources, respectively the > _Sanas Cormaic_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic) _[4]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-3) _[5]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-4) and _Historia > Brittonum_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Brittonum) ,_[6]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-5) > to have had colonies in _Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales) and > _Cornwall_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall) . According to the > Historia Brittonum they were driven out of _North Wales_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Wales) by _Cunedda_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunedda) and his sons._[7]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-6) > Alongside the U? Liath?in in this region of Britain were a significant force > of the so-called _D?isi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D?isi) , whose story > is told in the famous _Expulsion of the D?isi_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_D?isi) already mentioned > above,_[8]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-7) as well as a > smaller population of > the _Laigin_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin) . Neither are > specifically connected to the U? Liath?in, or connected to each other, in > any of the Irish sources, but collaboration can certainly not be ruled out, > especially in matters relating to trade, including the slave trade. The > D?isi Muman lived adjacent to them in the neighboring _County Waterford_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Waterford) and the Laigin could be > found not much farther east in the Kingdom of _Leinster_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster) . > The U? Liath?in can, however, be associated easily with their apparent > relation _Crimthann mac Fidaig_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimthann_mac_Fidaig) , the legendary _King of > Munster_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Munster) and dominant _High King of > Ireland_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland) of the 4th century. > They are mentioned not only in the same passage in the Sanas Cormaic,_[9]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-8) _[10]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-9) but are close > relations in all the earliest genealogical > manuscripts. > In a 1926 paper, _Eoin MacNeill_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_MacNeill) discusses the movements of > the U? Liath?in at considerable length, arguing their leadership in the > South Irish conquests and founding of the later dynasty of _Brycheiniog_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brycheiniog) , figures in the Welsh > genealogies matching U? Liath?in dynasts in the Irish genealogies. He > argues any possible settlement of the D?isi would have been subordinate > until the ousting of the U? Liath?in by the sons of Cunedda. The founder of > Brycheiniog, _Brychan_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brychan) , is in all > probability the early dynast Macc Brocc (for whom see below), while the > name Braccan also occurs early in the pedigrees of the U? Fidgenti and U? > Dedaid, close kindred of the U? Liath?in. MacNeill further associates this > with the sovereignty in Ireland and conquests in Britain of their cousin > germane, the monarch Crimthann mac Fidaig._[11]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-10) > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:28:41 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<703c6.745b14e5.3b80a009@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > > I think at the very least that the current map on the project page should > state that it just represent the area of greatest currently known > concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, and/or any > of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a much more extensive > area of coverage. For instance there was a suggestion on the R-L21 Project > some months back that parts of Germany may be up to 5% M222+, if that's > true it changes everything! > > I put the Trinity M222 distribution map online. > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg_ > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg) > > > There is no other such map available that I know of. > > As to German M222 there are quite a few in the databases. I just posted an > old list I compiled years ago the other day in response to someone who told > me he was Scandinavian M222. > > I haven't been able to update this list in the last few years. Ysearch > times out after about 500 entries now. > > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:40:56 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<7054d.78aa4b40.3b80a2e8@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 9:43:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: > > What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern Ui Neill power) > were tested for M222 in the Trinity report? > > The names Trinity tested can be found in their article _A Y-Chromosome > Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland (Trinity)_ > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/gael.pdf) and in the various > spreadsheets they released to the public. They also did a limited further > sampling of possible M222 surnames but kept the surnames tested > confidential. I also heard from several Kavanghs who said they were tested > by Trinity but the surname does not appear in any database released. > > Their website and data files are still online even though the project is > over. > > > _http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php_ > (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php) > > > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:55:23 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: [R-M222] M222 in Donegal > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com, r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<7071e.6a457edf.3b80a64b@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > I received an email from a co-admin of the Ireland DNA project on the > subject of the Venicnii in Donegal. > > " > " I read a book last year called: > "Cen?l Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800" by Brian Lacey of the > Discovery project. It was published in 2006 before the publicity about M222 > hit the wires. His theory was that the C?nel Conaill/C?nel Eoghain were > actually indigenous to Donegal and that they had written themselves into > history as Northern U? N?ill for political reasons. Obviously the presence > of > M222 seems to negate this theory. But perhaps there's some truth in > argument that some of the U? N?ill were already "Donegal natives" by time > that we reckon Niall lived. In other words carried M222 -- just as men > carrying U? > Fiachrach and U? Bri?in names have tested M222+ > > > Either way it's quite an interesting book as it covers the entire of Donegal > during this period with mentions of the "Sean Tuatha" (the old tribes etc.). > For example he theorises that the Cen?l Lughaidh of West Donegal name > actually reflects a connection to the god Lugh (they control area around > Tory island on coast), but in christian times it was refactor to be descent > from man called Lughaidh who is put down as a cousin of Colmcille. > > > Fair bit in way of genealogies mention from annals etc. > > > _http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784_ > > (http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784) > > > > I haven't read this book myself but I have access to it in a library > here. Here's a review someone posed on Amazon.com. I might take a look > at it > myself. > > "Brian Lacey offers an in-depth study of the Cenel Conaill and the Donegal > Kingdoms 500-800 AD. The text has many b&w ilustrations and maps. The study > is quite in-depth for the common layman but presented well. The author has > strong opinions about the origin& genealogy of the Cenel Conaill but does > not present a compelling argument in regards to his theory that Conall > Gulban was not a son of Niall Noigiallach. I would have thought the author > would have had more compelling evidence on Gulban than thus presented and > was not swayed by his opinion and concur with the established Gulban > genealogy back to Niall, although tenuous at best. In regards to Niall of > the Nine Hostages not being the progenitor of the R-M222 genetic marker, I > concur. Dr. > Ken Nordtveldt calculates the MCCA of R-M222 at 1740 years ago in 2008. > That computes to 268 AD, much earlier than Niall's supposed reign of 379 - > 405 AD (more recent up to 455 AD). Of course this does not take into > account a variance or standard deviation which was not computed. This > places the progenitor possibly being Niall's father to up to his > great-great grandfather (Caibre Maccormac d. 284). It is suggested that the > progenitor may be a Cruithin Prince. This is unlikely as Niall's two > brothers (Brion& Friachrae) through their respective descendents carry the > R-M222 marker. Thus one of Niall's paternal ancestors most likely had the > mutation. Anyway, Niall likely contributed most heavily to the marker since > he was still pagan and had multiple concubines. Overall, a very well > researched and scholarly presentation. However, the author's refudiation of > some of the sons of Niall as not belonging to his lineage is at best weak > and does not concur with the earlier records. In addition, recent R-M222 > haplogroup DNA findings of surnames associated with Conall Gulban and the > Ui Neill associated clans refute such suppositions presented by the author. > " > > > > > John > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 > ****************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256 > ****************************************** >

Go raibh maith agat, a Bernard. Inseoidh am an scéal. / Thank you, Bernard. Time will tell the story. In the meantime, the experts seem to think that the evidence of the manuscripts casts doubt on the genealogies of Cenél Maine and Uí Mhaine rather than on the genealogies of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 4:02 PM To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? Jerry, I read the same in Byrne's "Irish King and High Kings": "As for the Cenel Maine maic Neill, our two earliest genealogical manuscripts (both of which date from the twelfth century) differ irreconcilably as to the pedigree of that Aed mac Brenainn of which date from the twelfth century) differ irreconcilably as to the pedigree of that Aed mac Brenainn who granted Durrow to Colum Cille. We may suspect then that eastern Maine was so successfully absorbed into the Ui Neill ambit that their kings, by a politic fiction, were accepted into the dominant dynastic circle. The parting of the ways between Connachta and Ui Neill then led to the total separation of the Ui Maine and Cenel Maine. The fact that the annalistic obit of Maine mac Neill in 440 is so much earlier than that of any of his supposed brothers also suggests that he was adopted into the dynasty some time after the synthetic historians had agreed to push back the date of Niall's reign by a generation or more." First to note Maine's brother Laegaire mac Neill was according to the same annals king in 432 and died cicra 462, Maine date is not problematic per se. There is a desription of Bryne's views from Celtica: "Through Professor Byrne has litte doubt about the historicity of Niall himseld, he is quire properly reluctant to accept as Ui Neill some fo the lineages which claimed him as an ancestor. He suggest that 'some rulers managed to have their pedigrees grafted onto Niall's stem and Cenel Maine is a likely example of this. Ui Maine west of the Shannon and Cenel Maine to the east of it may once have formed one kingdom and the dynasty of the eastern part may have been accepted as Ui Neill once their territory was absorbed by the Ui Neill overkingdom." He could have a just as easy questioned Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill origins. Aed mac Brenainn of Cenel Maine pedigree (later 6th century) is placed by Margeret Dobbs's "The Territory and People of of Tethba" at Lissardowlan", Co. Longford per "The Life of Berach". While Bec mac Connla (died 770) had his residence in North Tethba, for (per Dobbs) in 1282 an O’Farrell castle was at “Cluain Lis Bece mic Connla. Matching what is accepted history, i.e. the people of Teffia originate north of the River Inny and where forced south. Yet the Ui Maine of Connacht are from Maenmhagh lying around Loughrea, Co. Galway? So is the argument that Ui Maine and Cenel Maine are one kingdom separated by the Shannon false, it seems that they are neighbors be a accident of history? > Hi Bernard, > > I remember from IRELAND BEFORE THE VIKINGS by Gearóid Mac Niocaill that the genealogies of the Cenél Maine are suspect. They might be the eastern remnant of a greater Maine kingdom which predates the rise of the Uí Néill and once may have spanned the Shannon with the Uí Mhaine as the western branch. Possibly, when actual Uí Néill (by blood) forced a wedge of settlement between them (I'm at work now at blanking on the name of that branch), the Uí Mhaine were "adopted" into the pseudo-histories of the Uí Néill story as descended from Maine descendant of Éremón while the Cenél Maine were adopted into the story as descended from Maine son of Niall descendant of Éremón. > > That's from a modern historian. As you know, Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh was one of Ireland's 2 greatest 17th century historians. He also doubted the genealogies of some of the Uí Néill in Deiscirt (Southern Uí Néill), especially that of the Ó Dálaigh of the Fir Cell of the Cenél Maine. He maintained that all the Fir Cell were Fir Bolg with a bogus Uí Néill pedigree. > > Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry > > Treibheanna Éireannacha > www.irishtribes.com > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bernard a chara, Working on a different family origin right now. On the Maine question, I have nothing invested in the issue and don't have the time to check Mac Niocaill. But if Mac Fhirbhisigh, an individual trained in the scoileanna filidheachta and scoileanna seanchasa of the early 17th century, and therefore fully and completely trained in the genealogies of the Uí Néill, had a problem with the genealogy of the Fir Cell and used that problem to malign the Uí Dhálaigh as upstarts, then I think we should pay more than casual attention to his reservations. At any rate, as I said, time will tell. Apologies that I can't add anything more to this discussion at this time. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Treibheanna Éireannacha www.irishtribes.com --- On Sat, 8/20/11, Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> wrote: > From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > To: "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011, 1:02 PM > > Jerry, > > I flipped through MacNiocaill work and didn't find any > reference questioning the origin of Cenel Maine.  Mac > Fhirbhisigh questioned one family? Father Walsh (the > specialist on Westmeath) question Brecaighe origin, but not > the Cenel Maine in general. No comments from Dobbs, so comes > down to Brynes and his comment about conflicting pedigrees > of Aed mac Brenainn? > > On the subject of M222 relation with the Ui Neill, where > are the M222+ O'Kellys from? Sil Aed Slaine? > > > > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:24:46 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí > Néill? > > > > Bernard a chara, > > > > In the last few days on this list, modern historians > Byrne and Mac Niocaill, > > and Mac Fhirbhisigh in the 17th century. > > > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > > Jerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 12:09 PM > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí > Néill? > > > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > Which experts? You may have seen John's posting as to > the origin of Cenél > > nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. I've seen the arguement > that Eoghain and Conaill > > (like Maine) are missing from early Irish sources > (i.e. the lives of St > > Patrick). > > > > > > > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:16:08 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí > Néill? > > > > > > Go raibh maith agat, a Bernard. Inseoidh am an > scéal. / Thank you, > > > Bernard. Time will tell the story. > > > > > > In the meantime, the experts seem to think that > the evidence of the > > > manuscripts casts doubt on the genealogies of > Cenél Maine and Uí > > > Mhaine rather than on the genealogies of Cenél > nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. > > > > > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > > > Jerry > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >     >          >            >   > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

Perhaps one of the best cases for West to East migration is Colum Cille (gaelic Dove of the Chuch, Iona - Hebrew Dove & Latin Columba Dove). I tried to put down my purported connection. Unfortunately the arrows did not transfer!!! So sorry. Adomnan (founder of Dull Monastery in Atholl) 7th century states Columba was the son of Feidlimid, and great grandson of Conall Gulban. We know he went to Iona ~ 563 AD and the Kindred of Columba (12 men who went with him, although a couple on his mother's side) were the ancestors of Clan Donnachaidh in the Atholl, part of Perth. These early Abbots married & had children in the kindred. I have Crinan (Kindred of Columba) to Alexander Robertson (who started the Reid sept ~ 1450 AD) straight back to Cenell Conaill. This is classic West to East from Donegal. As to the 2 epicenters of M222 in Ireland, my thoughts are that one was from the northern Ui Neills (16.7% Trinity study) and the other from the brothers of Niall at Connacht (10% epicenter Trinity study). No other epicenters in Europe. L21 ~ 4000 years ago in Gaul (France?0 and M269 ~ 6000 years ago around Causasus. M222 around 1500-2000 years ago NW Ireland. That the M222 did not start with Niall is evident, as his brothers present day clans carry M222. Thus Muighmheadoin could have been the earliest progenitor, but could be a few generations back in NW Ireland. That Niall spread the marker logarithmicly as did Ghenghis Khan (who like Niall was not the progenitor of his marker) was brought about by prestige & position as the Trinity report cites. As we know Columba was celibate but his kindred started the abbeys in Atholl and I am probably off of Crinan ancestry (Montcreiffe & Skeene - Crinan ancestor of Conall Gulban). I see no East to West from Scotland movement in Clan Donnachaidh or no steady state Ireland & Scotland modal as viewed by Campbell & some archaeologists. I think O'Rially's theory is quite plausible with the Q Celts. We know that Adomnan mentioned no Gaels in St Columbas' wanderings in Pictland but needed interpreters. So in my case, I got a good feeling about coming through Niall as do other Robertsons, Duncans & Reids who carry the M222 marker. Direct Paternal Ancestry of Robert Reid Y-Chromosome R-M222 SNP Eochaidh Muighmheadoin Son of Muiredach Tireach, King of Meath Niall Noigiallachd. C455 AD Niall of the Nine Hostages Conall Gulban progenitor of the Cenél Conaill, King of Tir Conaill d. 464 AD Fergus Cendfota son of Conall Gulban ‘Kindred’ of Colum Cille (Columba) Sons of Fergus Cendfota: Sétnae, Feidlimid, Brénainn, Ninnad. All four sons produced Abbots of Iona. St Columba celibate, son of Feidlimid Abbots of Iona 563 – 700 AD Lugaid (Cenel Lugdech)? son of Sétnae, conjectured by Sir Iain Moncreiffe as ancestor of Clan Donnachaidh Abbots of Dull & Dunkeld, Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland 700-1000 AD – direct paternal lineal descent fron Conall Gulban Duncan, Abthane of Dule, abbot of Dunkeld and Governor of Strathclyde b c920 AD Duncan, mormaer of Atholl and Abthane of Dule, killed 1010 AD at Battle of Mortlach where Malcolm II King of Scots defeated invading Norsemaen Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld & Earl of Atholl d. 1045. Progenitor of Clan Donnachaid Duncan I MacCrinan, King of Scotland d. 1040 AD killed at Burghead. Mael Muire (Melmare) Mormaer of Atholl appointed c1100 AD Madach (Madadd) 1st Earl of Atholl d. 1145 AD Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl m. c1165 AD to Hextilda Duncan 3rd son of Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl Madach of Clunes (probable male line to Earls of Atholl) researcher Godon MacGregor) Andrew de Atholia Duncan de Atholia d. 1355 AD Patrick de Atholia, First of Lude Alexander Reid of Strathloch, descendants called Baron Rua “Reid” Baron Reids - descendants in Strathloch, Perthshire, Scotland c1500 - 1750 Industrial Revolution movement from Perth to Renfrewshire Mathew Reid – resided in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland 1839 Thomas Reid – b. 1839 Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland William Thomson Reid - b. 1869 Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, Scotland Thomas Reid - b. 1896 Longriggrend, Lanarkshire, Scotland Daniel Michael Reid - b. 1922 Youngstown, Ohio Robert Reid - b. 1949 Youngstown, Ohio -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 1:56 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 Today's Topics: 1. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) 2. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) 3. Re: Speculations on Celtric Tribes (Bernard Morgan) 4. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) 5. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) 6. Re: Venicones (Lochlan@aol.com) 7. M222 in Donegal (Lochlan@aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:08:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] j To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <28c8c.535684e6.3b807128@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 8/19/2011 4:46:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have developed in Ireland? Most DNA experts I'm familiar with believe M222 originated in Ireland. And the reason they think so (in the words of Ken Nordvedt) is "that's where the haplotypes are." Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) said much the samething in a recent book and interview, a small part of which follows: Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in Scotland for hundreds of years. Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a native people who spoke Gaelic anyway? Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland. And this is because we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's over 40% - so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the progenitor is. Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. Wilson: I think that is the case. Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we willl see that and the case will be closed. That theory is not universally held however. Dr. Faux, also of EthnoAncetry at the time in 2006, said the following about M222 (then called R1b1c7): " 3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it may occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perhps because the first M222 emerged there). The only other relevant theory out there among academics belongs not to DNA but to an Irish mythologist, O' Rahillyh (Early Irish History and Mythology). O'Rahilly believed the Dal Cuinn), ancestors of the Ui Neill and Connachta, were latecomers to Ireland arriving sometime between 300 and 30 BC. He also believed they came not from England or Scotland but from somewhere in Gaul. We\ve discussed this on the list numerous times before. O'Rahilly began his book with a chapter on Ptolemy's map of Ireland. Well over half the tribal names in Ptolemy's map are unidentifiable to modern scholars. There is some agreement of a few of the names, including that of the Ulaidh and Dal Riata in northern Ireland, the Brigantes in Leinster, the Iverni in Munster and a few others. O'"Rahilly found no references to a tribe with the name of Dal Cuinn or anything similar. In fact he said they should have been there by 150 AD. but were not. O'Rahilly discussed every tribal name that appears in Ptolemy's map except for one: the Venicnii.. Why he omitted this name is a mystery. It appears in every version of the map I've seen. In a minor footnote he even mentioned the Venicones of Scotland. O'Rahilly's theories are all wrapped up in linguistic divisions between P and Q Celtic. I have ignored these since few linguists agree with him. When you boil it down to the basics you come away with this: the Dal Cuinn as a tribe came to Ireland from somewhere in Gaul sometime during the Roman era in the British Isles. If you accept the connection between the Dal Cuinn and M222, and the possibility that the Dal Cuinn came from Gaul, then it is logical to assume M222 originated in Gaul and migrated west into the British Isles. Scotland would be the most likely first settlement; but they had boats and could have come to Ireland at about the same time. If anyone knows of any other theories on the origin of the Dal Cuinn now is the time to speak out. John ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:14:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <28ea2.3cbfdf68.3b807289@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 8/19/2011 5:43:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cjl315@comcast.net writes: Is there any belief that M-222 may have come to Ireland with the Laigin? There is a DNA signature associated with the Lagin of Leinster but its not M222. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm) John ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 03:17:45 +0000 From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Speculations on Celtric Tribes To: <craig@mckie.ca>, dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <SNT128-W26919190363AA1F34ECBF6BB2D0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Let follow some of Craig's words > Isolated individuals did not prosper or indeed long survive in the late Neolithic and the early Middle Ages. In Ireland the basic unit of society was the derbfhine (or variant), comprising all the patrilineal descendants over a four-generation group, i.e., back to common great-grandfather. The derbfhine held typical five or four rath/tech i.e. homesteads, which formed a Baile. Twenty Baile form a Tuath or Tricha Cet, the basic kingdom level. Population remains constant until such things as agricultural improvements; therefore population growth is a constant sum game, i.e. if the M222+ population expansion is at the expense of someone else?s male descendants. M222 population could expand territorially, however you have to wars and tribal politics, so a simpler method is to push the weaker members of the tribe to the edges. Smith shows this his book "Celtic Leinster". So non-M222 population is forced to marginal land or contested frontier, and so are in decline. (Probably also there male access to reproduction was a constant sum game to, won by those with great recourses.) How this applies to M222? Well M222 would have grown in a clump for mutual support and when large enough a clump breaks away and form new colonies. This organic grow is what is described in the branching pedigrees and the geographical movements can be followed in the annals. Hence have the information to know who should be M222 (if telling the truth) due to tribal claims. In Scotland this lack the annals its harder, yet there are Gaelic tribal descriptions. However the Clan confederation dominates our understanding of Scotland. Without the history and genealogical records we know little about origin of the Gall-Gael. I think the fundamental issue with Scotland is that no one have yet written the Gaelic history of Scotland, or as the Scots would have described it, the Irish history of Scotland?. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:21:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] j To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <702de.6e38541f.3b809e6e@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" In a message dated 8/19/2011 7:54:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, donmilligan@comcast.net writes: I understand there are some histories of Wales, written in the early 1900,that indicated some Irish raiders from the east central coast of Ireland came into Wales and some of them settled in Wales. Some of these Irish raiders were likely Celtic M-222+. Their descendants mixed in with the Welsh Celts, and spread all the way into northern England, southern Scotland, and northeastern Scotland. There's a fair amount about that in the literature. Google flight of the Deisi to find some of it. There aren't many specific Irish tribes named though. I think the Ui Liathain are another. There are also notices of a northern British tribe returning to northern Wales to throw out the Irish kings. And in Irish sources a statement that the Irish kings spent as much time in Wales as in Ireland. Nothing specific though. Nothing to tie in with M222 although you can't rule it out. The following is from Wikipedia: " The U? Liath?in are known from both Irish and _British_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) sources, respectively the _Sanas Cormaic_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic) _[4]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-3) _[5]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-4) and _Historia Brittonum_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Brittonum) ,_[6]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-5) to have had colonies in _Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales) and _Cornwall_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall) . According to the Historia Brittonum they were driven out of _North Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Wales) by _Cunedda_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunedda) and his sons._[7]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-6) Alongside the U? Liath?in in this region of Britain were a significant force of the so-called _D?isi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D?isi) , whose story is told in the famous _Expulsion of the D?isi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_D?isi) already mentioned above,_[8]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-7) as well as a smaller population of the _Laigin_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin) . Neither are specifically connected to the U? Liath?in, or connected to each other, in any of the Irish sources, but collaboration can certainly not be ruled out, especially in matters relating to trade, including the slave trade. The D?isi Muman lived adjacent to them in the neighboring _County Waterford_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Waterford) and the Laigin could be found not much farther east in the Kingdom of _Leinster_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster) . The U? Liath?in can, however, be associated easily with their apparent relation _Crimthann mac Fidaig_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimthann_mac_Fidaig) , the legendary _King of Munster_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Munster) and dominant _High King of Ireland_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland) of the 4th century. They are mentioned not only in the same passage in the Sanas Cormaic,_[9]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-8) _[10]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-9) but are close relations in all the earliest genealogical manuscripts. In a 1926 paper, _Eoin MacNeill_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_MacNeill) discusses the movements of the U? Liath?in at considerable length, arguing their leadership in the South Irish conquests and founding of the later dynasty of _Brycheiniog_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brycheiniog) , figures in the Welsh genealogies matching U? Liath?in dynasts in the Irish genealogies. He argues any possible settlement of the D?isi would have been subordinate until the ousting of the U? Liath?in by the sons of Cunedda. The founder of Brycheiniog, _Brychan_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brychan) , is in all probability the early dynast Macc Brocc (for whom see below), while the name Braccan also occurs early in the pedigrees of the U? Fidgenti and U? Dedaid, close kindred of the U? Liath?in. MacNeill further associates this with the sovereignty in Ireland and conquests in Britain of their cousin germane, the monarch Crimthann mac Fidaig._[11]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-10) John ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:28:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <703c6.745b14e5.3b80a009@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: I think at the very least that the current map on the project page should state that it just represent the area of greatest currently known concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, and/or any of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a much more extensive area of coverage. For instance there was a suggestion on the R-L21 Project some months back that parts of Germany may be up to 5% M222+, if that's true it changes everything! I put the Trinity M222 distribution map online. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg) There is no other such map available that I know of. As to German M222 there are quite a few in the databases. I just posted an old list I compiled years ago the other day in response to someone who told me he was Scandinavian M222. I haven't been able to update this list in the last few years. Ysearch times out after about 500 entries now. John ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:40:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <7054d.78aa4b40.3b80a2e8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 8/19/2011 9:43:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern Ui Neill power) were tested for M222 in the Trinity report? The names Trinity tested can be found in their article _A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland (Trinity)_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/gael.pdf) and in the various spreadsheets they released to the public. They also did a limited further sampling of possible M222 surnames but kept the surnames tested confidential. I also heard from several Kavanghs who said they were tested by Trinity but the surname does not appear in any database released. Their website and data files are still online even though the project is over. _http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php_ (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php) John ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:55:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: [R-M222] M222 in Donegal To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com, r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <7071e.6a457edf.3b80a64b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I received an email from a co-admin of the Ireland DNA project on the subject of the Venicnii in Donegal. " " I read a book last year called: "Cen?l Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800" by Brian Lacey of the Discovery project. It was published in 2006 before the publicity about M222 hit the wires. His theory was that the C?nel Conaill/C?nel Eoghain were actually indigenous to Donegal and that they had written themselves into history as Northern U? N?ill for political reasons. Obviously the presence of M222 seems to negate this theory. But perhaps there's some truth in argument that some of the U? N?ill were already "Donegal natives" by time that we reckon Niall lived. In other words carried M222 -- just as men carrying U? Fiachrach and U? Bri?in names have tested M222+ Either way it's quite an interesting book as it covers the entire of Donegal during this period with mentions of the "Sean Tuatha" (the old tribes etc.). For example he theorises that the Cen?l Lughaidh of West Donegal name actually reflects a connection to the god Lugh (they control area around Tory island on coast), but in christian times it was refactor to be descent from man called Lughaidh who is put down as a cousin of Colmcille. Fair bit in way of genealogies mention from annals etc. _http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784_ (http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784) I haven't read this book myself but I have access to it in a library here. Here's a review someone posed on Amazon.com. I might take a look at it myself. "Brian Lacey offers an in-depth study of the Cenel Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms 500-800 AD. The text has many b&w ilustrations and maps. The study is quite in-depth for the common layman but presented well. The author has strong opinions about the origin & genealogy of the Cenel Conaill but does not present a compelling argument in regards to his theory that Conall Gulban was not a son of Niall Noigiallach. I would have thought the author would have had more compelling evidence on Gulban than thus presented and was not swayed by his opinion and concur with the established Gulban genealogy back to Niall, although tenuous at best. In regards to Niall of the Nine Hostages not being the progenitor of the R-M222 genetic marker, I concur. Dr. Ken Nordtveldt calculates the MCCA of R-M222 at 1740 years ago in 2008. That computes to 268 AD, much earlier than Niall's supposed reign of 379 - 405 AD (more recent up to 455 AD). Of course this does not take into account a variance or standard deviation which was not computed. This places the progenitor possibly being Niall's father to up to his great-great grandfather (Caibre Maccormac d. 284). It is suggested that the progenitor may be a Cruithin Prince. This is unlikely as Niall's two brothers (Brion & Friachrae) through their respective descendents carry the R-M222 marker. Thus one of Niall's paternal ancestors most likely had the mutation. Anyway, Niall likely contributed most heavily to the marker since he was still pagan and had multiple concubines. Overall, a very well researched and scholarly presentation. However, the author's refudiation of some of the sons of Niall as not belonging to his lineage is at best weak and does not concur with the earlier records. In addition, recent R-M222 haplogroup DNA findings of surnames associated with Conall Gulban and the Ui Neill associated clans refute such suppositions presented by the author. " John ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 ******************************************

Hi, Your name is Ashley? My maternal grandmother's name was Ashley, from New Bedford, Massachusetts. Doug On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:11 AM, <GAshley923@aol.com> wrote: > > The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a > family of > Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient > records > in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in > Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive > me for > not keeping the book name for reference) “The MacConaghy, MacConkey, > MacDonagh, > Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal > name > Donnchadh, meaning ‘brown warrior’ (from donn and cath). This gives > the personal > names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the > MacDonaghs, > Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a > branch of > the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac > Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In > Co > Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh > Ceallach > Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth > century. > However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally > well > known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat > Duncan > (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in > the > fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. > The > MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan > Robertson, > their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ‘h’ after > the ‘D’ makes > it silent, thus sounding as Mac’onachie.) Also, after the 1745 > rebellion, many > members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their > identity. > There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which, > the > MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the > fourteenth-century > Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies > descend from > the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second > wife. > There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In > Ulster all > this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also > an > Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of > Donachie > and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as > well as > Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty, > MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn. > Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim. > Donaghy > is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties > Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.†> Some McConnaghy’s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider > themselves > Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both, > considering that > the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient > times, and > MacConahy’s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention > that many > moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer > to > say Scotch-Irish for most of us. > Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay, > McConaughy, > McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea, > MacConahie, > MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie, > McConaghy, > McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc. > This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one > particular > family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found > under half > a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was > always > spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no > idea how > to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the > scribe who > wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled. > Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your > particular > spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a > future > newsletter > > > _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_ > (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html) > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a family of Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient records in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive me for not keeping the book name for reference) “The MacConaghy, MacConkey, MacDonagh, Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal name Donnchadh, meaning ‘brown warrior’ (from donn and cath). This gives the personal names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the MacDonaghs, Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a branch of the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In Co Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh Ceallach Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth century. However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally well known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat Duncan (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in the fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. The MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan Robertson, their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ‘h’ after the ‘D’ makes it silent, thus sounding as Mac’onachie.) Also, after the 1745 rebellion, many members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their identity. There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which, the MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the fourteenth-century Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies descend from the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second wife. There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In Ulster all this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also an Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of Donachie and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as well as Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty, MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn. Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim. Donaghy is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.” Some McConnaghy’s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider themselves Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both, considering that the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient times, and MacConahy’s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention that many moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer to say Scotch-Irish for most of us. Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay, McConaughy, McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea, MacConahie, MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie, McConaghy, McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc. This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one particular family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found under half a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was always spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no idea how to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the scribe who wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled. Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your particular spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a future newsletter _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_ (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html)