John makes a good point below. Traditionally, Niall brought young Patrick to Ireland as a slave. That makes Patrick a contemporary of Niall's sons including Eoghan and Conall, which would make it tough for the descendant kinship groups of Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal Eoghain to exist in Patrick's lifetime. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry --- On Sat, 8/20/11, John Carey <johnca@quickclic.net> wrote: > From: John Carey <johnca@quickclic.net> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011, 1:23 PM > There are other potential > explanations.  Thomas Charles-Edwards in Early > Christian Ireland has an interesting take on the absence of > Cenél Conaill > from Tírechán, which he suggests was related to the power > of the cult of > Columba.  He also points out that although Tírechán > does not mention Cenél > nÉoghain, the Tripartite Life refers to Éogan mac Néill > as Patrick's > faithful friend and suggests that this difference is > related to political > changes in the 730s. > > John Carey > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > Sent: August-20-11 12:09 PM > To: dna-r1b1c7 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > Jerry, > > Which experts? You may have seen John's posting as to the > origin of Cenél > nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. I've seen the arguement that > Eoghain and Conaill > (like Maine) are missing from early Irish sources (i.e. the > lives of St > Patrick). > > > > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:16:08 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí > Néill? > > > > Go raibh maith agat, a Bernard. Inseoidh am an scéal. > / Thank you, > > Bernard. Time will tell the story. > > > > In the meantime, the experts seem to think that the > evidence of the > > manuscripts casts doubt on the genealogies of Cenél > Maine and Uí > > Mhaine rather than on the genealogies of Cenél > nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. > > > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > > Jerry >     >          >            >   > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

Bob a chara, Someone may have answered this already but Quinn is short for X Cuinn / X of Conn. Cuinn is the genitive of Conn, a grammatical way to say 'of Conn'. Mac Cuinn would be Son of Conn. Ó Cuinn would be Grandson of Conn. But the 'of' part is in Cuinn, not in Mac or Ó. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry --- On Sun, 8/21/11, Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> wrote: > From: Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sunday, August 21, 2011, 2:23 PM > > Would like to know his opinion. Everyone else thinks it is > Son of Conn. > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals >   > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí > Néill? > > > > Thanks Bob > > > > Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht gives for > the derivation of the > > surname Quinn? > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > > Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí > Néill? > > > > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. > > > > Bob Quinn > > President&CEO > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > T:610-331-4920 > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > >    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > From: raaq@live.com > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí > Néill? > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of > the early Celts, so I'll > > be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and > my Quinns/Murphys are > > from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher > Scandinavain component > > for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to > anybody? > > > > > > Bob Quinn > > > President&CEO > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street > Partners > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > > 27 Langton Lane > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > > T:610-331-4920 > > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > >    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly > Uí Néill? > > > > > > > > Bernard > > > > > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate > for the origins of > > McHarg/Mac > > > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to > his haplotype? > > > > > > > > I've found an interesting match between > Ewing and a Quinn, with matches > > at > > > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the > Quinn is from O'Quin > > though. I > > > > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from > McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > >    > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly > Uí Néill? > > > > > > > > > > > > Jerry, > > > >  > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in > understanding Cenel Maine, however > > I > > > > hadn't taken the step to investigate the > claim against Cenel Maine. > > Brynes’s > > > > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting > pedigree and that closeness > > to > > > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. > For Dobbs shows that "Cenel > > > > Maine" originates in a seperate location > distant from Ui Maine. > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >      >          >            >   > > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >      >          >            >   > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >     >          >            >   > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui Neill (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of the territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of Ptolemy (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries to connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems completely off-base. Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes? The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off shoot of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co. Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness, associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest idea what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it. He also spends a fair amount of ink on Mag Shamradhan's article on the southern Ui Neill which claims that Conall Cremthaine was really Conal gulban. That also seems doubtful to me. Chapter 5 The 'Ui Neill of the north': a genealogical fabrication. Tirechan Our earliest actual witness to the geography of at last part of the great Donegal are as we have seen above is Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to about 690. Unfortunately Tirechan referred mainly to the physical geography, giving us little information about the political subdivisions. He described the area as a series of Campi or plains - his translation into Latin of the Irish word Maige - running from south to north. Mag Sereth and Lag Larrain in south Donegal were divided from Magh nItha and Mag Tochuir in the north by the Bernas FIliorum Conill, 'the Gap of the sons of Conall', the Barnesmore Gap.. It is important top note that Tirechan does not suggest that the Conall from whom the Bernas was named was a son of Niall Noigiallach. When Tirechan does mention a Conall son of Niall, as he does on two occasions, it is clear that he is referring to the Conall allegedly associated with the astern midlands, the character known to us as Conall Cremthainne (Bieler 1979, 133 and 163). Speaking about Tirechan's Collectanea, Thomas Charles-Edwards significantly says: "The principal part of the work consists of two books, there first devoted to the lands of the Ui Neill and the second to the kingdoms of the Connachta. The Ui Neill in Tirechan's scheme were solely the southern UI Neill, rulers of the midlands. The northern Ui Neill dynasties, Cenel Conaill, Cenel nEogain and Cenel nEndai, thus had no obvious place in his text (2007, 37) ....The fact is that the people known to us as the northern Ui Neill are not dealt with in the Ui Neill section but in the second or Connaught book. Thus the very earliest description we have of the political geography of Donegal makes no reference to any association between the people who lived there and the people known to the author of that description as Ui Neill. Indeed, the very opposite is the case, for Tirechan the northerners seem to have been unambiguously not Ui Neill. As far as he was concerned, the Ui Neill were confined more or less, to the east of the country. Conclusion To sum up, with the exception of Cenel Cairpre, there appears to be no evidence that any of the rulers of the Donegal kingdoms were related by blood to Niall Noigiallach or to the Ui Neill. Instead it seems there is evidence that the Cenel Conaill were a Cruithin people associated in some way with the Ui Echach Cobha and with other allegedly east Ulster peoples. The Cenel nEnnai may have had connections with the 'Cruithin Dal nAraidi or, alternatively, the Airgialla, who themselves may originally have had connections also with the Cruithin. The Cenel Eoghain but a lot less certainly, may have had connections with the Dal Fiatach. >From a DNA standpoint, I'm not sure we can yet say the northern and southern Ui Neill were related by blood in descent from Niall. Most of the DNA we possess is either Connachta or northern Ui Neill in origin. Or just plain of unknown origin. There is some in the south, O'Mulloys and Geoghegans, I think the Trinity study largely skipped over southern Ui Neill surnames. In the following list I only see a few that might be southern Ui Neill. (O’)Gallagher (12), (O’)Boyle (9), (O’)Doherty (5), O’Donnell (4), O’Connor (3), Cannon (3), Bradley (2), O’Reilly (2), Flynn (2), (Mc)Kee (2), Campbell (1), Devlin (1), Donnelly (1), Egan (1), Gormley (1), Hynes (1), McCaul (1), McGovern (1), McLoughlin (1), McManus (1), McMenamin (1), Molloy (1), O’Kane (1), O’Rourke (1), and Quinn (1). Molloy might be one. McLoughlin another if the O Mailsechlainns of Meath were targeted. But that also could be MacLochlainn of Donegal. I'm not saying I don't believe the genealogies are incorrect or that DNA doesn't support them. I think we don't have enough data yet to decide. Where did Niall live? If he's known for anything in Irish mythology it's for his raids on Roman Britain. The same is true of his father, Eochaidh Mughmedhoin. It's hard to imagine that he lived in the old Connachta capital of Cruachan if he spent much of his time raiding Britain by ship. That line of work would be much easier from a coastline somewhere. John

In a message dated 8/21/2011 5:05:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com writes: I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? ' Thanks, Iain. I worked through O'Rahilly's chapter on Niall to see what sources he used and didn't come away with much. I also read through a chapter on Laceys book on the Donegal clans and just found references to a few poems perhaps dating to the 700s, one of which mentioned Loegaire, son of Niall. Both mention Adamnan Life of Columcille as a trustworthy source. John

What I said was that the oldest physical manuscript version of this work dates to the 11th century. Lacey (and yes I do know him as I have his book on the Cenél Conaill) isn't talking about the physical manuscript. My post was fairly easy to understand to anyone who knows what a transcription is, and all the pitfalls waiting for the modern reader. Just read back over our recent efforts at transcribing a few words from MS1467 recently, and the criticism heaped on Skene for his attempts.  Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: rreid002@insight.rr.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:34:41 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 263 > > Rough crowd! Per Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland Vol > 124 (2004) pp 169-172; per Brian Lacey, "The Amrae Coluimb Cille has been > generally thought to have been composed close to the time of death of its > subject, which probably occurred in AD 593. We have been reminded, however, > that this is a complex text which, lacking an adequate modern edition, has > yet to be definitely dated as early as c. 600." > > Biography > > Brian Lacey was born in Dublin in 1949. He did various jobs in Ireland, > Belgium, France and Greece for four years after finishing secondary > education. He then studied Celtic Archaeology and Early including Medieval > Irish History at University College Dublin (BA 1st class Hons, 1974; also > awarded the Eugene O’Curry memorial medal for Early Irish History), and > obtained a D. Phil. from the University of Ulster in 1999 for > interdisciplinary work relating to the heritage of St Colum Cille. From 1974 > to 1986 he was a lecturer in Local Studies (archaeology and history) at > Magee University College in Derry, and from 1986 until 1998 was Programme > Organiser of Derry City Council’s Heritage and Museum Service. During that > time he set up, among other things, four award-winning museums and a > municipal archive service. > Publications > Books: > > (with others) Archaeological Survey of Donegal (1983, editor and principal > author) > Siege City – the Story of Derry and Londonderry (1990, reprinted 1995 and > 1998) > Colum Cille and the Columban Tradition (1997) > Manus O’Donnell – The Life of Colum Cille (1998) > Discover Derry (1999) > A Pocket History of Irish Saints (2003) > Cenél Conaill and the Donegal kingdoms: AD 500-800 (2006) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:23 PM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 263 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 (Iain Kennedy) > 2. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bob Quinn) > 3. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bernard Morgan) > 4. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bernard Morgan) > 5. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Sandy Paterson) > 6. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bob Quinn) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:13:24 +0000 > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <BLU116-W175CB84E8862509FCCB276A92C0@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Thanks for bringing this to our attention. However we need to distinguish > between dates of manuscripts and estimates of dates when their original > sources might have been written. There is no 597 AD manuscript such as you > are implying, it exists in transcription from the 11th century. I apologise > if people on this list don't think this distinction matters. Is it a totally > accurate transcription without embellishments or errors?? > > > This is one of the earliest sources (not written 8th-10th centuries) > > of Colum Cille's genealogy at such an early date. Most experts don't > > know what to do with it but think its likely around 600 AD before > > Aed's death if he so commissioned it. > > Iain > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: rreid002@insight.rr.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:15:46 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > > > > Please let me state, I am no expert on this but was probably written > > before > > 596 since that was the date Aed died, King of Cenel Conaill. Aed that > > commissioned the work, Amrae Coluim Cille, being his relative. You > > wanted reference to Conall Gulban being the son of Niall. We all know > > it can't be Conal Cremthanne as he is of the Southern Ui Neill. As we > > know, Colum Cille died ~ 593 AD. Aed was the great-grandson of Fergus > > and Colum Cille was the grandson of Fergus. As the poem relates, > > Fergus was the son of Conall, son of Neill. This can be googled at > > http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/amra_columcille.htmlhttp://www.maryjone > > s.us/c > > texts/amra_columcille.html > > > > > > Amra Of St Columba > > > > PREFACE TO THE AMRA OF ST. COLUMBA. > > > > The place for the Amra usque in finein, i.e. the bit of land that is > > between Fene in UI Tigernan in Meath up to Dun na n-Airbed in the > > district of Masraige eastward of Irarus, or of Chechtraige Slecht from > > Breifne of Connaught; i.e. for Dallan. > > > > [For] Colum Cille son of Feidlimid, son of Fergus, son of Conall, son > > of Neill, Dallan wrote this. Now this is the third cause for which > > Colum Cille came, viz. a refusal that Ireland's kings around Aed mac > > Ainmerech put on Ireland's poets; for it was owing to the multitude of > > the poets and to their burdensomeness that Ireland's men were not able > > to find out what to do with them; for the person who was satirised > > there, if he did not immediately die, there used to grow poisonous > > ulcers upon him, till he was conspicuous to everybody, and till there > > was deformity upon him always; but upon the poet himself grew the > > ulcers, and he used to die immediately, if it was without fault that > > he satirised. Now the poets were at Ibar of Cinntracht in the > > territory of Ulster, for Ulster's king gave them 'coigny' three years, > > or (may be) one whole year there. And it was then they set themselves > > to invent stories, but they were wholly unable (to do it) as they used > > to tell them; but to impose them on the wholly rude race among whom > > they were, ready-tongued poets concocted the lying fables. Well, a > > message came from Ireland's poets to Colum Cille, to the effect that > > it was to them he should come before he went to Druim Cetta, the place > > where the kings were who refused them. And so they invoked God's name > > upon the head of Colum Cille and of the Christian faith ... was > > brought under his protection to Druim Cetta. There came afterwards Colum > Cille as he came from his boat, seven twenties his number (of followers), ut > poeta dixit: > > > > Forty priests his number, > > twenty bishops lofty power > > at the psalm-singing without dispute, > > fifty deacons, thirty students. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > > dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 3:00 AM > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Another theory on Connachta origins (Yair Davidiy) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:28:22 +0200 > > From: Yair Davidiy <britam@netvision.net.il> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Another theory on Connachta origins > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: <0LQ900EMGLZCEA00@mxout2.netvision.net.il> > > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > > At 04:56 AM 8/21/2011, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > > >pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > > > > > >I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among > > >the Belgae tribes of the Rhine... > > > > > > M222 is present on the Continent, especially in the west. > > > > Some of it may originate form Irish immigrants many of whom did go to > > Europe. > > Others are probably local. > > > > Has anybody done any work on this?? > > > > Do the family names say anything? > > > > Are there local concentrations?? > > > > Yair Davidiy > > Jerusalem > > Israel > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > > ****************************************** > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:29:11 -0400 > From: Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <BLU128-W2710F4921FC580692C1F0EA02C0@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > From: raaq@live.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so I'll > be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are > from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component > for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody? > > > > Bob Quinn > > President&CEO > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > > Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > T:610-331-4920 > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > Bernard > > > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of > > > McHarg/Mac Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > > > > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with > > > matches at DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is > > > from O'Quin though. I think he's from Mackquein, which may be from > McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, > > > however I hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against > > > Cenel Maine. Brynes?s argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting > > > pedigree and that closeness to Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine > > > Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate > location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:42:10 +0000 > From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <SNT128-W77DFE969F078ADB297AF4BB2C0@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Thank John, I can now push the existence of Cenel Maine back to the 10/11th > century. > > > Bernard, I just checked the Tripartite Life of Patrick (Whitley Stokes > > edition). In his introduction he states the material was written in > > the middle 10th century or more probably the 11th century. I'm not > > sure how great a source this is. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:14:20 +0000 > From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <SNT128-W158CDFF29178FF3E2774BCBB2C0@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of > > McHarg/Mac Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > I think it is unlikely. > > MagCargamni are typical anglized: MacCaron or Gaffney > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100 > From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <002101cc602b$0a1ec270$1e5c4750$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thanks Bob > > Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht gives for the derivation of the > surname Quinn? > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > From: raaq@live.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so > > I'll > be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are > from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component > for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody? > > > > Bob Quinn > > President&CEO > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > > Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > T:610-331-4920 > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > Bernard > > > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of > McHarg/Mac > > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > > > > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with > > > matches > at > > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin > though. I > > > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, > > > however > I > > > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. > Brynes?s > > > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that > > > closeness > to > > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that > > > "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:23:06 -0400 > From: Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <BLU128-W4E137C18359BF0C89C8A8A02C0@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > Would like to know his opinion. Everyone else thinks it is Son of Conn. > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > Thanks Bob > > > > Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht gives for the derivation of > > the surname Quinn? > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > > Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. > > > > Bob Quinn > > President&CEO > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > > Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > T:610-331-4920 > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: raaq@live.com > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so > > > I'll > > be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my > > Quinns/Murphys are from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher > > Scandinavain component for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything > to anybody? > > > > > > Bob Quinn > > > President&CEO > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > > > Manufacturer's Roundtable > > > 27 Langton Lane > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > > T:610-331-4920 > > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > > > Bernard > > > > > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of > > McHarg/Mac > > > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > > > > > > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with > > > > matches > > at > > > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin > > though. I > > > > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard > > > > Morgan > > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, > > > > however > > I > > > > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. > > Brynes?s > > > > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that > > > > closeness > > to > > > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that > > > > "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 263 > ****************************************** > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Bob Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht gives for the derivation of the surname Quinn? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: raaq@live.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so I'll be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody? > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > Bernard > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of McHarg/Mac > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with matches at > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin though. I > > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, however I > > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. Brynes’s > > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that closeness to > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel > > Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of McHarg/Mac > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? I think it is unlikely. MagCargamni are typical anglized: MacCaron or Gaffney

Thank John, I can now push the existence of Cenel Maine back to the 10/11th century. > Bernard, I just checked the Tripartite Life of Patrick (Whitley Stokes > edition). In his introduction he states the material was written in the > middle 10th century or more probably the 11th century. I'm not sure how great a > source this is.

Rough crowd! Per Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland Vol 124 (2004) pp 169-172; per Brian Lacey, "The Amrae Coluimb Cille has been generally thought to have been composed close to the time of death of its subject, which probably occurred in AD 593. We have been reminded, however, that this is a complex text which, lacking an adequate modern edition, has yet to be definitely dated as early as c. 600." Biography Brian Lacey was born in Dublin in 1949. He did various jobs in Ireland, Belgium, France and Greece for four years after finishing secondary education. He then studied Celtic Archaeology and Early including Medieval Irish History at University College Dublin (BA 1st class Hons, 1974; also awarded the Eugene O’Curry memorial medal for Early Irish History), and obtained a D. Phil. from the University of Ulster in 1999 for interdisciplinary work relating to the heritage of St Colum Cille. From 1974 to 1986 he was a lecturer in Local Studies (archaeology and history) at Magee University College in Derry, and from 1986 until 1998 was Programme Organiser of Derry City Council’s Heritage and Museum Service. During that time he set up, among other things, four award-winning museums and a municipal archive service. Publications Books: (with others) Archaeological Survey of Donegal (1983, editor and principal author) Siege City – the Story of Derry and Londonderry (1990, reprinted 1995 and 1998) Colum Cille and the Columban Tradition (1997) Manus O’Donnell – The Life of Colum Cille (1998) Discover Derry (1999) A Pocket History of Irish Saints (2003) Cenél Conaill and the Donegal kingdoms: AD 500-800 (2006) -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:23 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 263 Today's Topics: 1. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 (Iain Kennedy) 2. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bob Quinn) 3. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bernard Morgan) 4. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bernard Morgan) 5. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Sandy Paterson) 6. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bob Quinn) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:13:24 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W175CB84E8862509FCCB276A92C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks for bringing this to our attention. However we need to distinguish between dates of manuscripts and estimates of dates when their original sources might have been written. There is no 597 AD manuscript such as you are implying, it exists in transcription from the 11th century. I apologise if people on this list don't think this distinction matters. Is it a totally accurate transcription without embellishments or errors?? > This is one of the earliest sources (not written 8th-10th centuries) > of Colum Cille's genealogy at such an early date. Most experts don't > know what to do with it but think its likely around 600 AD before > Aed's death if he so commissioned it. Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: rreid002@insight.rr.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:15:46 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > > Please let me state, I am no expert on this but was probably written > before > 596 since that was the date Aed died, King of Cenel Conaill. Aed that > commissioned the work, Amrae Coluim Cille, being his relative. You > wanted reference to Conall Gulban being the son of Niall. We all know > it can't be Conal Cremthanne as he is of the Southern Ui Neill. As we > know, Colum Cille died ~ 593 AD. Aed was the great-grandson of Fergus > and Colum Cille was the grandson of Fergus. As the poem relates, > Fergus was the son of Conall, son of Neill. This can be googled at > http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/amra_columcille.htmlhttp://www.maryjone > s.us/c > texts/amra_columcille.html > > > Amra Of St Columba > > PREFACE TO THE AMRA OF ST. COLUMBA. > > The place for the Amra usque in finein, i.e. the bit of land that is > between Fene in UI Tigernan in Meath up to Dun na n-Airbed in the > district of Masraige eastward of Irarus, or of Chechtraige Slecht from > Breifne of Connaught; i.e. for Dallan. > > [For] Colum Cille son of Feidlimid, son of Fergus, son of Conall, son > of Neill, Dallan wrote this. Now this is the third cause for which > Colum Cille came, viz. a refusal that Ireland's kings around Aed mac > Ainmerech put on Ireland's poets; for it was owing to the multitude of > the poets and to their burdensomeness that Ireland's men were not able > to find out what to do with them; for the person who was satirised > there, if he did not immediately die, there used to grow poisonous > ulcers upon him, till he was conspicuous to everybody, and till there > was deformity upon him always; but upon the poet himself grew the > ulcers, and he used to die immediately, if it was without fault that > he satirised. Now the poets were at Ibar of Cinntracht in the > territory of Ulster, for Ulster's king gave them 'coigny' three years, > or (may be) one whole year there. And it was then they set themselves > to invent stories, but they were wholly unable (to do it) as they used > to tell them; but to impose them on the wholly rude race among whom > they were, ready-tongued poets concocted the lying fables. Well, a > message came from Ireland's poets to Colum Cille, to the effect that > it was to them he should come before he went to Druim Cetta, the place > where the kings were who refused them. And so they invoked God's name > upon the head of Colum Cille and of the Christian faith ... was > brought under his protection to Druim Cetta. There came afterwards Colum Cille as he came from his boat, seven twenties his number (of followers), ut poeta dixit: > > Forty priests his number, > twenty bishops lofty power > at the psalm-singing without dispute, > fifty deacons, thirty students. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 3:00 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Another theory on Connachta origins (Yair Davidiy) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:28:22 +0200 > From: Yair Davidiy <britam@netvision.net.il> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Another theory on Connachta origins > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <0LQ900EMGLZCEA00@mxout2.netvision.net.il> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > At 04:56 AM 8/21/2011, you wrote: > > > > > > > >In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > >pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > > > >I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among > >the Belgae tribes of the Rhine... > > > M222 is present on the Continent, especially in the west. > > Some of it may originate form Irish immigrants many of whom did go to > Europe. > Others are probably local. > > Has anybody done any work on this?? > > Do the family names say anything? > > Are there local concentrations?? > > Yair Davidiy > Jerusalem > Israel > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > ****************************************** > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:29:11 -0400 From: Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU128-W2710F4921FC580692C1F0EA02C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: raaq@live.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so I'll be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody? > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > Bernard > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of > > McHarg/Mac Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with > > matches at DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is > > from O'Quin though. I think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, > > however I hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against > > Cenel Maine. Brynes?s argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting > > pedigree and that closeness to Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine > > Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:42:10 +0000 From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <SNT128-W77DFE969F078ADB297AF4BB2C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank John, I can now push the existence of Cenel Maine back to the 10/11th century. > Bernard, I just checked the Tripartite Life of Patrick (Whitley Stokes > edition). In his introduction he states the material was written in > the middle 10th century or more probably the 11th century. I'm not > sure how great a source this is. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:14:20 +0000 From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <SNT128-W158CDFF29178FF3E2774BCBB2C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of > McHarg/Mac Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? I think it is unlikely. MagCargamni are typical anglized: MacCaron or Gaffney ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100 From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <002101cc602b$0a1ec270$1e5c4750$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks Bob Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht gives for the derivation of the surname Quinn? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: raaq@live.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so > I'll be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody? > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > Bernard > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of McHarg/Mac > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with > > matches at > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin though. I > > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, > > however I > > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. Brynes?s > > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that > > closeness to > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that > > "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:23:06 -0400 From: Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU128-W4E137C18359BF0C89C8A8A02C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Would like to know his opinion. Everyone else thinks it is Son of Conn. Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > Thanks Bob > > Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht gives for the derivation of > the surname Quinn? > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > From: raaq@live.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so > > I'll > be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my > Quinns/Murphys are from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher > Scandinavain component for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody? > > > > Bob Quinn > > President&CEO > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI > > Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > T:610-331-4920 > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > Bernard > > > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of > McHarg/Mac > > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > > > > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with > > > matches > at > > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin > though. I > > > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard > > > Morgan > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, > > > however > I > > > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. > Brynes?s > > > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that > > > closeness > to > > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that > > > "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 263 ******************************************

Would like to know his opinion. Everyone else thinks it is Son of Conn. Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > Thanks Bob > > Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht gives for the derivation of the > surname Quinn? > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > From: raaq@live.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so I'll > be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are > from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component > for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody? > > > > Bob Quinn > > President&CEO > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > T:610-331-4920 > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > > > Bernard > > > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of > McHarg/Mac > > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > > > > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with matches > at > > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin > though. I > > > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, however > I > > > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. > Brynes’s > > > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that closeness > to > > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel > > > Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. However we need to distinguish between dates of manuscripts and estimates of dates when their original sources might have been written. There is no 597 AD manuscript such as you are implying, it exists in transcription from the 11th century. I apologise if people on this list don't think this distinction matters. Is it a totally accurate transcription without embellishments or errors?  > This is one of the earliest sources (not written 8th-10th centuries) of > Colum Cille's genealogy at such an early date. Most experts don't know what > to do with it but think its likely around 600 AD before Aed's death if he so > commissioned it. Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: rreid002@insight.rr.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:15:46 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > > Please let me state, I am no expert on this but was probably written before > 596 since that was the date Aed died, King of Cenel Conaill. Aed that > commissioned the work, Amrae Coluim Cille, being his relative. You wanted > reference to Conall Gulban being the son of Niall. We all know it can't be > Conal Cremthanne as he is of the Southern Ui Neill. As we know, Colum Cille > died ~ 593 AD. Aed was the great-grandson of Fergus and Colum Cille was the > grandson of Fergus. As the poem relates, Fergus was the son of Conall, son > of Neill. This can be googled at > http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/amra_columcille.htmlhttp://www.maryjones.us/c > texts/amra_columcille.html > > > Amra Of St Columba > > PREFACE TO THE AMRA OF ST. COLUMBA. > > The place for the Amra usque in finein, i.e. the bit of land that is between > Fene in UI Tigernan in Meath up to Dun na n-Airbed in the district of > Masraige eastward of Irarus, or of Chechtraige Slecht from Breifne of > Connaught; i.e. for Dallan. > > [For] Colum Cille son of Feidlimid, son of Fergus, son of Conall, son of > Neill, Dallan wrote this. Now this is the third cause for which Colum Cille > came, viz. a refusal that Ireland's kings around Aed mac Ainmerech put on > Ireland's poets; for it was owing to the multitude of the poets and to their > burdensomeness that Ireland's men were not able to find out what to do with > them; for the person who was satirised there, if he did not immediately die, > there used to grow poisonous ulcers upon him, till he was conspicuous to > everybody, and till there was deformity upon him always; but upon the poet > himself grew the ulcers, and he used to die immediately, if it was without > fault that he satirised. Now the poets were at Ibar of Cinntracht in the > territory of Ulster, for Ulster's king gave them 'coigny' three years, or > (may be) one whole year there. And it was then they set themselves to invent > stories, but they were wholly unable (to do it) as they used to tell them; > but to impose them on the wholly rude race among whom they were, > ready-tongued poets concocted the lying fables. Well, a message came from > Ireland's poets to Colum Cille, to the effect that it was to them he should > come before he went to Druim Cetta, the place where the kings were who > refused them. And so they invoked God's name upon the head of Colum Cille > and of the Christian faith ... was brought under his protection to Druim > Cetta. There came afterwards Colum Cille as he came from his boat, seven > twenties his number (of followers), ut poeta dixit: > > Forty priests his number, > twenty bishops lofty power > at the psalm-singing without dispute, > fifty deacons, thirty students. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 3:00 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Another theory on Connachta origins (Yair Davidiy) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:28:22 +0200 > From: Yair Davidiy <britam@netvision.net.il> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Another theory on Connachta origins > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <0LQ900EMGLZCEA00@mxout2.netvision.net.il> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > At 04:56 AM 8/21/2011, you wrote: > > > > > > > >In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > >pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > > > >I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the > >Belgae tribes of the Rhine... > > > M222 is present on the Continent, especially in the west. > > Some of it may originate form Irish immigrants many of whom did go to > Europe. > Others are probably local. > > Has anybody done any work on this?? > > Do the family names say anything? > > Are there local concentrations?? > > Yair Davidiy > Jerusalem > Israel > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 > ****************************************** > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Iain Do you know much about Slaine of Brega? Perhaps a wild guess, but how about Donnshleibhe/Slaine/Slavens? Adamnan also interests me. The Cain of Adomnain was also known as the Law of Adomnan (Oxford DNB). Could some Cains or variants have derived their surname from the Cain of Adomnain? Could the Lag in Lagman come from the same source? DYS446=15 is present in Lamont, Cain variants and Slavens. The M222 modal value is 13. Speculative, I know, but if the DNA ties in with the onomastics, there may be something in it. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: 21 August 2011 11:05 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill... it is the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of Ulster.' I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere > which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sandy, I wouldn't want to comment from a linguistic point of view. Aed Slaine is mentioned in several places by Hughes whose interest was in locating where various sources were written and what political motives lay behind their entries.  'the early annals were interested in the Ui Neill overlords, but they were especially interested in the descendants of Aed Slaine. They were part of the southern Ui Neill, some of them were among the overlords, but some were minor kings of Brega, the area which is now Co. Louth and the east of Meath'. The other place he is discussed is in the section on Muirchu's Life of St Patrick which survives in a transcription in the Book of Armagh but was actually written a century earlier, c. 700-ish. This source doesn't seem to have such a good reputation for accuracy as Adomnan (and strictly speaking isn't an original anyway). 'One, at least, of Muirchu's aims was to attach Armagh to the Ui Neill, who were now clearly in the ascendant... the future of Armagh had to lie with the Ui Neill, as Muirchu's Life recognised. The Ui Neill overlords between 658 and 695 were all Brega kings, descendants of Aed Slaine, and it is interesting that the annals are concerned with that area, where Armagh later had her own steward. The written sources for the Ui Neill annal entries may go back to this period in the later seventh century when Armagh was accumulating material to support her own claims and was anxious to link herself with Ui Neill power'. Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:41:10 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > Iain > > Do you know much about Slaine of Brega? > > Perhaps a wild guess, but how about > > Donnshleibhe/Slaine/Slavens? > > Adamnan also interests me. The Cain of Adomnain was also known as the Law of > Adomnan (Oxford DNB). Could some Cains or variants have derived their > surname from the Cain of Adomnain? Could the Lag in Lagman come from the > same source? DYS446=15 is present in Lamont, Cain variants and Slavens. The > M222 modal value is 13. Speculative, I know, but if the DNA ties in with the > onomastics, there may be something in it. > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy > Sent: 21 August 2011 11:05 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all > the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly > before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using > Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' > and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the > New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely > religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is > Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an > MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: > 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a > surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic > king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid, > succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill > overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill... it is > the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the > battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and > contraction of Ulster.' > I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even > sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? > > Iain > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere > > which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Last night I was reading the DNA articles and discussions on the eupedia site. One interesting post was this one where it was argued that not only should we not use modern distribution to determine the origin of a haplogroup (commonly accepted, see origins of R1b) but neither should we use STR diversity, which I have argued for before on this list. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25644-Why-it-is-wrong-to-assume-that-a-haplogroup-originated-where-it-is-most-frequent-now I don't know who the poster is or whether he has any relevant qualifications. He gives the age of M222 as 3000ybp but doesn't cite a reference or any data to back this up. Some of the maps and tables are excellent although they are high level compared with M222. I was however interested to see that it makes Wales to have a higher R1b concentration than either Ireland or Scotland, albeit based on rather thin data. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml Main portal page is http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/ Iain

I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442. Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: raaq@live.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so I'll be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody? > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > Bernard > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of McHarg/Mac > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with matches at > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin though. I > > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, however I > > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. Brynes’s > > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that closeness to > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel > > Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Iain. This post you linked is well worth the read. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25644-Why-it-is-wrong-to-assume-that-a-haplogroup-originated-where-it-is-most-frequent-now Susan

I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so I'll be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody? Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > Bernard > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of McHarg/Mac > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with matches at > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin though. I > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. > > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 > To: dna-r1b1c7 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > Jerry, > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, however I > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. Brynes’s > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that closeness to > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel > Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill... it is the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of Ulster.' I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere > which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bernard Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of McHarg/Mac Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with matches at DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin though. I think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? Jerry, Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, however I hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. Brynes’s argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that closeness to Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine.

At 04:56 AM 8/21/2011, you wrote: > > >In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > >I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the >Belgae tribes of the Rhine... M222 is present on the Continent, especially in the west. Some of it may originate form Irish immigrants many of whom did go to Europe. Others are probably local. Has anybody done any work on this?? Do the family names say anything? Are there local concentrations?? Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel