Oh aye the noo. Thanks for a breath of sanity. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 24 August 2011 20:45 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh Jerry, Gerry, Is there any connection between: Mac Duinnshléibhe and O'Duinn When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following: http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html Which list the same person as: 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi* 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi* Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the Mountains", as opposed to "Cormac of the Mountain Fort" What say ye?? Cheers, Paul On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@irishtribes.com>wrote: > Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but (in > my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to > English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with > the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last > week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac > Duinnshléibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the Ó hEochaidh > sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around. > > Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line. > I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos, > excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's > handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the > printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the project. > Buíochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De Búrca edition (2003) > so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand). > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry > > > Treibheanna Éireannacha > www.irishtribes.com > > > --- On Tue, 8/23/11, Lochlan@aol.com <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com <Lochlan@aol.com> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM > > > > > > In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight > > Time, > > jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > > writes: > > > > But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did > > not have ready access > > to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of > > Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac > > Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through > > O'Donovan's TRIBES AND > > CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY > > FIACHRACH. After waiting for > > 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally > > published by De Búrca > > Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght > > disagree on a family origin, > > I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. > > > > The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a > > while. > > Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end. > > Not for the faint of heart. > > > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ > > > > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) > > > > > > > > > > I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a > > copy of O'Hart's Irish > > pedigrees open on his desk at all times. > > I don't know if that's true or > > not. It was not comforting to hear. > > > > > > John > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > > subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I just finished this entire Article: very interesting and it is a should read. http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.10 44.DC1 ** * Busby_ESM_notes_figures.pdf <http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1/rspb20111044supp1.pdf> - Supplementary analysis and figures * Busby_tables.xlsx <http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1/rspb20111044supp2.xls> - Supplementary data and tables This Article 1. Published online before print August 24, 2011, doi: 10.1098/rspb.2011.1044 1. Abstract <http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.abstract>Free 2. Full Text <http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full>Free 3. Full Text (PDF) <http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full.pdf+html> 4. » Data Supplement On 8/24/2011 5:23 PM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.10 > 44.DC1

A couple of things in regard to the last two posts just to throw out there. I think I need not remind anyone that the tissue samples for the DNA testing are contemporary -- some on with in the last 10 or so years swabbed and gave it up. At the time of registration and/or somewhat later those testing related where they believed their oldest known ancestor resided. This belief may have been actual fact and/or the result of good genealogy or best guess. What the data base then shows is the result of that information as it is revealed. As an example, when we registered our family test subject, we knew that our oldest known ancestor who also happened to be the immigrant into the colonies in 1754/5 sailed from the port of Londonderry. We had the anecdotal stories that indeed they resided in Ulster and had for perhaps 4 generations previous to hopping the pond. We also knew, however because of these same stories handed down that they were Ulster Scots and to support this the men and women alike for the first several generations post immigration married those with Scot and/or Ulster Scot names and they were staunch Presbyterians. What their M222 shows is that indeed they were from Ireland and probably Ulster but does not really speak to Scotland beyond the knowledge that others who claimed Scotland the environ of their oldest known ancestor also carry M222. How many hundreds of years have passed since the estimated origins of M222 where ever it formed up? People migrate now as they did then. Names change either because record keepers recording in English entered them into the record phonetically. Some families change the spellings of their names -- our McC's are one prime example of that, and as it is spelled by all the variations does not resemble what it was originally in Gaelic. Now onto mutations. In addition to mutations which one would suspect (and we have been told by those who claim to know more) would mutate over a certain number of generations, some more readily than others, apparently there are environmental factors which also will cause mutation. Some of those I have seen are some investigative medical diagnostic procedures, some diseases themselves, chemical exposures particularly some of those found in the farming industry among other places -- and how many men have gone to war -- think about the chemical exposures during WWI, II and Viet Nam just to mention a few -- extreme stress, and the list goes on. I think Bill has mentioned the problem of str mutations many times in reference to predictions of any number of things using the data from dna alone. You know, we all can drive ourselves bats over a few things, and name changes and STR mutations are two of them. Susan On 8/24/2011 4:13 PM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 > (Bernard Morgan) > 2. Problems with using STR values alone to determine TMRCA > calculations (Paul Conroy) > 3. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Jerry Kelly) > 4. R-L21 M222+ Percentages in Europe by Country and/or Region > (Paul Conroy) > 5. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Paul Conroy) > 6. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Sandy Paterson) > 7. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Jerry Kelly) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 13:18:04 +0000 > From: Bernard Morgan<bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD > 500-800 > To: dna-r1b1c7<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<SNT128-W604CB1EFD91766C01B60A4BB110@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >> I have mentioned this theme many times before on the list. For example >> "O'Duinn" were originally Anglicized to Doyen, then Doyne, then Dunn, then >> Dunne - so especially with emigrants leaving for the US or elsewhere, the >> earlier the time of emigration, the earlier the Anglicized variant of their >> name they will have. So I have matches with people called Doyen, so I can >> say with some confidence that they emigrated 150 to 200 years ago. > > This is an old chestnut of the name and leads to the unanswered question why are the there so many M222+ Dunns in the southern half of Ireland? > > One possibility is that they are the displaced O'Dubhain, Lords of Cnodhbha. This would make Sil Aeda Slaine M222+ and we would expect to see other major members of this kinship also being M222+. Such surnames as: O'Kellys (kings of Bregia); O'Connolly ((possible related MacSherry sept) who are known to have moved into Ulster and settle on MacMahon's lands in Co. Monaghan); and fellow princes like the O'Regan. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:13:38 -0400 > From: Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> > Subject: [R-M222] Problems with using STR values alone to determine > TMRCA calculations > To: dna-r1b1c7<DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: > <CA+2t2c7e9TwX5U-7XtFJfzx58Xvnc=37xKNxrw-0GGa5sx8jxA@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Just want to draw attention to a new article on estimating the age of R1b > haplotypes using *just STR values* - the synopsis by Dienekes is exactly the > same criticism that I leveled at attempts on this list to do the same for > R-L21 M222+, without reference to SNPs, just using STR values: > > *It is also probably consistent with the idea that Y-STR based estimates are >> suspect because of deviations from the linear model.* > > Like I previously mentioned, STR values increase over time, but importantly > decrease over time too, and not in a linear fashion. So an STR that has been > steadily increasing from it's upstream value, can suddenly decrease. When I > look at my own STR values, and my closest matching Dunn(s) families, who > share a number of Off-Modal values with me, such as DYS449=32 and CDYb=41, > I'm struck by the fact that my DYS391=10, and theirs is DYS391=11. DYS391 is > a slow moving marker, let's say for arguments sake its mutation rate is once > every 1,000 years, well it would seem that such a mutation occurred in my > line recently, after the other Off-Modals occurred. > > So essentially lineages go on a statistical "random walk", and one lineage > can end up looking similar, and another different from a common founder > lineage, in a non-linear fashion. So extracting the correct aging is fraught > with difficulty. > > As the 1,000 Genomes project and others have shown recently, there are many > SNPs out there, and many more to be discovered, which are invaluable, as > they do follow a linear pattern, and exact branching of lineages can be > determined by their use. > > > http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/08/back-to-drawing-board-for-r-m269-busby.html > > Cheers, > Paul > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:42:39 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jerry Kelly<jerrykelly@irishtribes.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <1314211359.63346.YahooMailClassic@web1109.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but (in my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac Duinnshl?ibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the ? hEochaidh sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around. > > Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line. I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos, excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the project. Bu?ochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De B?rca edition (2003) so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand). > > Le gach dea-ghu? / Best, > Jerry > > > Treibheanna ?ireannacha > www.irishtribes.com > > > --- On Tue, 8/23/11, Lochlan@aol.com<Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > >> From: Lochlan@aol.com<Lochlan@aol.com> >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM >> >> >> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight >> Time,? >> jerrykelly@irishtribes.com >> writes: >> >> But,? from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did >> not have ready access >> to???Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of >> Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac? >> Fhirbhisigh.? He could only get at parts of it through >> O'Donovan's TRIBES? AND >> CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY >> FIACHRACH.? After? waiting for >> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally >> published by? De B?rca >> Books in 2003.? So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght >> disagree on a? family origin, >> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. >> >> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a >> while.??? >> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end.? >> Not for the faint of? heart. >> >> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ >> >> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) >> >> >> >> >> I read a? story once that said that MacLysaght had a >> copy of O'Hart's Irish >> pedigrees? open on his desk at all times.? >> I? don't know if that's true or? >> not.? It was not comforting to hear. >> >> >> John >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >> subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:12:22 -0400 > From: Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> > Subject: [R-M222] R-L21 M222+ Percentages in Europe by Country and/or > Region > To: dna-r1b1c7<DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: > <CA+2t2c4kwCWg+yB1XP60SsccSQFCNwfFeMm7Maun4Ga81aimnA@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Here is a must read supplementary data spreadsheet, which lays out the > percentages of R1b and particularly R-L21 M222+ per country and/or region: > http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1 > > Look at Tab "TableS1-HG frequencies" and then Column "T" > > I've extracted out the data on M222 and created images of it: > 1. http://i56.tinypic.com/343jkuo.png - Summary of both studies results > > 2. http://i52.tinypic.com/2d8i1jb.png - Summary of each study separately > > > Some interesting highlights on the frequency of M222+ are that: > 1. EAST Ireland 20-25% of R1b is M222+ > 2. West Scotland (14.29%)> North East Scotland (10.45%)> North West > Scotland (6.25%) > 3. France 6.24% > 4. Germany 5.26% > 5. Sweden 1.44% > 6. Norway 1.45% > > Enjoy! > > Cheers, > Paul > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:45:27 -0400 > From: Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CA+2t2c6jQL+zVpHOSCkxm-rLdF4VgCzVXkfXNZ7xy=y1TBLrsQ@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Jerry, Gerry, > > Is there any connection between: > Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn > > When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following: > http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html > > Which list the same person as: > 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi* > 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi* > > Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the Mountains", as opposed to > "Cormac of the Mountain Fort" > > What say ye?? > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jerry Kelly<jerrykelly@irishtribes.com>wrote: > >> Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but (in >> my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to >> English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with >> the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last >> week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac >> Duinnshl?ibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the ? hEochaidh >> sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around. >> >> Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line. >> I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos, >> excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's >> handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the >> printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the project. >> Bu?ochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De B?rca edition (2003) >> so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand). >> >> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best, >> Jerry >> >> >> Treibheanna ?ireannacha >> www.irishtribes.com >> >> >> --- On Tue, 8/23/11, Lochlan@aol.com<Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: >> >>> From: Lochlan@aol.com<Lochlan@aol.com> >>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe >>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>> Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight >>> Time, >>> jerrykelly@irishtribes.com >>> writes: >>> >>> But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did >>> not have ready access >>> to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of >>> Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac >>> Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through >>> O'Donovan's TRIBES AND >>> CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY >>> FIACHRACH. After waiting for >>> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally >>> published by De B?rca >>> Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght >>> disagree on a family origin, >>> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. >>> >>> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a >>> while. >>> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end. >>> Not for the faint of heart. >>> >>> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ >>> >>> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a >>> copy of O'Hart's Irish >>> pedigrees open on his desk at all times. >>> I don't know if that's true or >>> not. It was not comforting to hear. >>> >>> >>> John >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >>> subject and the body of the message >>> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:10:00 +0100 > From: "Sandy Paterson"<alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh > To:<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<000001cc6299$ce156a10$6a403e30$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Oh aye the noo. Thanks for a breath of sanity. > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy > Sent: 24 August 2011 20:45 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh > > Jerry, Gerry, > > Is there any connection between: > Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn > > When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following: > http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html > > Which list the same person as: > 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi* > 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi* > > Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the Mountains", as opposed to > "Cormac of the Mountain Fort" > > What say ye?? > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jerry Kelly > <jerrykelly@irishtribes.com>wrote: > >> Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but > (in >> my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to >> English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with >> the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last >> week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac >> Duinnshl?ibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the ? hEochaidh >> sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around. >> >> Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line. >> I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos, >> excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's >> handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the >> printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the > project. >> Bu?ochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De B?rca edition > (2003) >> so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand). >> >> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best, >> Jerry >> >> >> Treibheanna ?ireannacha >> www.irishtribes.com >> >> >> --- On Tue, 8/23/11, Lochlan@aol.com<Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: >> >>> From: Lochlan@aol.com<Lochlan@aol.com> >>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe >>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>> Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight >>> Time, >>> jerrykelly@irishtribes.com >>> writes: >>> >>> But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did >>> not have ready access >>> to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of >>> Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac >>> Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through >>> O'Donovan's TRIBES AND >>> CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY >>> FIACHRACH. After waiting for >>> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally >>> published by De B?rca >>> Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght >>> disagree on a family origin, >>> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. >>> >>> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a >>> while. >>> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end. >>> Not for the faint of heart. >>> >>> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ >>> >>> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a >>> copy of O'Hart's Irish >>> pedigrees open on his desk at all times. >>> I don't know if that's true or >>> not. It was not comforting to hear. >>> >>> >>> John >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >>> subject and the body of the message >>> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 13:13:55 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jerry Kelly<jerrykelly@irishtribes.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <1314216835.74888.YahooMailClassic@web1113.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > A Ph?il a chara, > > Go raibh maith agat. / Thank you. > > We have to resort to Irish grammar to translate these. Donn Sliabh ('Brown Mountain') would be the original warrior-name in the nominative form, the form used when the noun is the subject of a sentence. In those days, the adjective could precede or succeed the noun, unlike today when it usually comes after the noun. > > The usual genitive form of Donn Sliabh in that period was Duinn Sl?ibe or Duinn Sl?ibi ('Of Brown Mountain'), today's Duinnshl?ibhe. > > So I would translate Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi as Cormac (Chariot-Son) son of Brown Mountain and Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi as Cormac grandson of Brown Mountain. > > To write Cormac Dunn ('Brown Cormac') of the Mountain in that period, we'd need to write either Donn Cormac na Sl?ibhi/e or Cormac Donn na Sl?ibhi/e. > > To write Brown Cormac of a (any old) mountain in that period, we'd need to write either Donn Cormac Sl?ibhe/i or Cormac Donn Sl?ibhi/e. > > To write Brown Cormac of the mountains in that period, we'd write either Donn Cormac na Sl?ibti/e or Cormac Donn na Sl?ibte/i. > > You point out correctly that d?n is the nominative of fort and d?in is its genitive. > > Go raibh s? sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > Le gach dea-ghu? / Best, > Jerry > > Treibheanna ?ireannacha > www.irishtribes.com > > > --- On Wed, 8/24/11, Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> wrote: > >> From: Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 3:45 PM >> Jerry, Gerry, >> >> Is there any connection between: >> Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn >> >> When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following: >> http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html >> >> Which list the same person as: >> 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi* >> 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi* >> >> Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the >> Mountains", as opposed to >> "Cormac of the Mountain Fort" >> >> What say ye?? >> >> Cheers, >> Paul > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 277 > ****************************************** >

A Bernard a chara, You're right. Mac Duinnshléibhe does not yield Ó Duinn. The only connection is the coincidence of the adjective donn meaning 'brown'. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry --- On Wed, 8/24/11, Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> wrote: > From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh > To: "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 5:32 PM > > > > > > > Is there any connection between: > > > Mac Duinnshléibhe and O'Duinn > > > > > > > > > Do I take it that Mac Duinnshléibhe does not yield > O'Duinn? I found a Dunlavey at YSearch.org and he is I*. I > wonder how he compares to the halpotype of the MacGuinness > of Iveagh.     >          >         

Paul, This is a hard read, so thanks for the summation which is very interesting and something that I would have missed since I only browsed the PDF doc this morning and gave up. Do you have any idea what mean by Ireland North and the rest? The French 6.24% is interesting to me because I match 61/67 with a man named Lafarlette whose family is French. Gerry -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 3:12 PM To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] R-L21 M222+ Percentages in Europe by Country and/or Region Here is a must read supplementary data spreadsheet, which lays out the percentages of R1b and particularly R-L21 M222+ per country and/or region: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.10 44.DC1 Look at Tab "TableS1-HG frequencies" and then Column "T" I've extracted out the data on M222 and created images of it: 1. http://i56.tinypic.com/343jkuo.png - Summary of both studies results 2. http://i52.tinypic.com/2d8i1jb.png - Summary of each study separately Some interesting highlights on the frequency of M222+ are that: 1. EAST Ireland 20-25% of R1b is M222+ 2. West Scotland (14.29%) > North East Scotland (10.45%) > North West Scotland (6.25%) 3. France 6.24% 4. Germany 5.26% 5. Sweden 1.44% 6. Norway 1.45% Enjoy! Cheers, Paul R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jerry, Gerry, Is there any connection between: Mac Duinnshléibhe and O'Duinn When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following: http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html Which list the same person as: 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi* 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi* Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the Mountains", as opposed to "Cormac of the Mountain Fort" What say ye?? Cheers, Paul On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@irishtribes.com>wrote: > Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but (in > my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to > English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with > the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last > week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac > Duinnshléibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the Ó hEochaidh > sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around. > > Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line. > I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos, > excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's > handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the > printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the project. > Buíochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De Búrca edition (2003) > so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand). > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry > > > Treibheanna Éireannacha > www.irishtribes.com > > > --- On Tue, 8/23/11, Lochlan@aol.com <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com <Lochlan@aol.com> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM > > > > > > In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight > > Time, > > jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > > writes: > > > > But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did > > not have ready access > > to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of > > Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac > > Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through > > O'Donovan's TRIBES AND > > CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY > > FIACHRACH. After waiting for > > 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally > > published by De Búrca > > Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght > > disagree on a family origin, > > I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. > > > > The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a > > while. > > Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end. > > Not for the faint of heart. > > > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ > > > > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) > > > > > > > > > > I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a > > copy of O'Hart's Irish > > pedigrees open on his desk at all times. > > I don't know if that's true or > > not. It was not comforting to hear. > > > > > > John > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > > subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Here is a must read supplementary data spreadsheet, which lays out the percentages of R1b and particularly R-L21 M222+ per country and/or region: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1 Look at Tab "TableS1-HG frequencies" and then Column "T" I've extracted out the data on M222 and created images of it: 1. http://i56.tinypic.com/343jkuo.png - Summary of both studies results 2. http://i52.tinypic.com/2d8i1jb.png - Summary of each study separately Some interesting highlights on the frequency of M222+ are that: 1. EAST Ireland 20-25% of R1b is M222+ 2. West Scotland (14.29%) > North East Scotland (10.45%) > North West Scotland (6.25%) 3. France 6.24% 4. Germany 5.26% 5. Sweden 1.44% 6. Norway 1.45% Enjoy! Cheers, Paul

There is a very recent article which is in my view highly germane to the matters discussed on this list.... When the World’s Population Took Off: The Springboard of the Neolithic Demographic Transition Jean-Pierre Bocquet-Appel Science 29 July 2011: 560-561. It goes over the standard ground of the Neolithic Farming Demographic Transition, discusses the community structures that emerged, migration, and most importantly the high infant mortality - low mean age situation in extended family farming settlements of that era. He also suggests an top limit of 150 persons per extended family settlement based on a putatively inherent limitation in human abilities to recognize kinship in social space beyond that population cap, which was a new argument to me. But if correct, it would help explain the wild proliferation of kinship lines in evidence on this list. To me the article contents make the explosion in the numbers of carriers of M222 (which it does NOT mention) to the present day all the more extraordinary. You have to live to reproductive age in order to pass genetic content on and that was a big challenge way back when in the British Isles. I guess this circumstance would tend to be evidence that M222 emerged later rather than earlier, well after food storage techniques had been perfected (eg. cheesemaking and beer storage) and some rudimentary understanding of water-borne illnesses was in play. But then one must also take the Black Death of the 1300s into account too. It seemly killed off half of the proto-urban population of GB leaving knots of isolated rustic communities (of possibly all fewer than 150 persons each in total) often untouched. Regretably from my point of view, the article does not discuss the role of armed conflict and raiding and mutual depredation which clearly contributed much to the complete picture. One has simply to cite the total extirpation by the Vikings of the entire Pict male line from The Orkneys and The Shetlands by simple slaughter and enslavement and transportation to the Middle Eastern slave markets to convey this importance. The article is behind a paywall but we do not let such matters bedevil us so I do have a pdf of the two pages which form quite a large file so I will not attach it.

Sandy a chara, You speak Lallans!! That is so cool. What does "Oh aye the noo" mean? Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry --- On Wed, 8/24/11, Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> wrote: > From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 4:10 PM > Oh aye the noo. Thanks for a breath > of sanity. > > Sandy > >

> I have mentioned this theme many times before on the list. For example > "O'Duinn" were originally Anglicized to Doyen, then Doyne, then Dunn, then > Dunne - so especially with emigrants leaving for the US or elsewhere, the > earlier the time of emigration, the earlier the Anglicized variant of their > name they will have. So I have matches with people called Doyen, so I can > say with some confidence that they emigrated 150 to 200 years ago. This is an old chestnut of the name and leads to the unanswered question why are the there so many M222+ Dunns in the southern half of Ireland? One possibility is that they are the displaced O'Dubhain, Lords of Cnodhbha. This would make Sil Aeda Slaine M222+ and we would expect to see other major members of this kinship also being M222+. Such surnames as: O'Kellys (kings of Bregia); O'Connolly ((possible related MacSherry sept) who are known to have moved into Ulster and settle on MacMahon's lands in Co. Monaghan); and fellow princes like the O'Regan.

A Phóil a chara, Go raibh maith agat. / Thank you. We have to resort to Irish grammar to translate these. Donn Sliabh ('Brown Mountain') would be the original warrior-name in the nominative form, the form used when the noun is the subject of a sentence. In those days, the adjective could precede or succeed the noun, unlike today when it usually comes after the noun. The usual genitive form of Donn Sliabh in that period was Duinn Sléibe or Duinn Sléibi ('Of Brown Mountain'), today's Duinnshléibhe. So I would translate Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi as Cormac (Chariot-Son) son of Brown Mountain and Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi as Cormac grandson of Brown Mountain. To write Cormac Dunn ('Brown Cormac') of the Mountain in that period, we'd need to write either Donn Cormac na Sléibhi/e or Cormac Donn na Sléibhi/e. To write Brown Cormac of a (any old) mountain in that period, we'd need to write either Donn Cormac Sléibhe/i or Cormac Donn Sléibhi/e. To write Brown Cormac of the mountains in that period, we'd write either Donn Cormac na Sléibti/e or Cormac Donn na Sléibte/i. You point out correctly that dún is the nominative of fort and dúin is its genitive. Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Treibheanna Éireannacha www.irishtribes.com --- On Wed, 8/24/11, Paul Conroy <pconroy63@gmail.com> wrote: > From: Paul Conroy <pconroy63@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 3:45 PM > Jerry, Gerry, > > Is there any connection between: > Mac Duinnshléibhe and O'Duinn > > When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following: > http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html > > Which list the same person as: > 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi* > 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi* > > Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the > Mountains", as opposed to > "Cormac of the Mountain Fort" > > What say ye?? > > Cheers, > Paul

Just want to draw attention to a new article on estimating the age of R1b haplotypes using *just STR values* - the synopsis by Dienekes is exactly the same criticism that I leveled at attempts on this list to do the same for R-L21 M222+, without reference to SNPs, just using STR values: *It is also probably consistent with the idea that Y-STR based estimates are > suspect because of deviations from the linear model.* Like I previously mentioned, STR values increase over time, but importantly decrease over time too, and not in a linear fashion. So an STR that has been steadily increasing from it's upstream value, can suddenly decrease. When I look at my own STR values, and my closest matching Dunn(s) families, who share a number of Off-Modal values with me, such as DYS449=32 and CDYb=41, I'm struck by the fact that my DYS391=10, and theirs is DYS391=11. DYS391 is a slow moving marker, let's say for arguments sake its mutation rate is once every 1,000 years, well it would seem that such a mutation occurred in my line recently, after the other Off-Modals occurred. So essentially lineages go on a statistical "random walk", and one lineage can end up looking similar, and another different from a common founder lineage, in a non-linear fashion. So extracting the correct aging is fraught with difficulty. As the 1,000 Genomes project and others have shown recently, there are many SNPs out there, and many more to be discovered, which are invaluable, as they do follow a linear pattern, and exact branching of lineages can be determined by their use. http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/08/back-to-drawing-board-for-r-m269-busby.html Cheers, Paul

Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but (in my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac Duinnshléibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the Ó hEochaidh sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around. Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line. I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos, excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the project. Buíochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De Búrca edition (2003) so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand). Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Treibheanna Éireannacha www.irishtribes.com --- On Tue, 8/23/11, Lochlan@aol.com <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > From: Lochlan@aol.com <Lochlan@aol.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM > > > In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight > Time,  > jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > writes: > > But,  from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did > not have ready access > to   Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of > Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac  > Fhirbhisigh.  He could only get at parts of it through > O'Donovan's TRIBES  AND > CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY > FIACHRACH.  After  waiting for > 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally > published by  De Búrca > Books in 2003.  So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght > disagree on a  family origin, > I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. > > The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a > while.    > Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end.  > Not for the faint of  heart. > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ > > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) > > > > > I read a  story once that said that MacLysaght had a > copy of O'Hart's Irish > pedigrees  open on his desk at all times.  > I  don't know if that's true or  > not.  It was not comforting to hear. > > > John > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

Since the two lands are completely linked through migrations, here is a summarized brief look at Scotland. The site for further exploration is at http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2html Certainly some from this site has already been here, however for those who haven't been consider it simply an addition to the discussion regarding heritages. *A Brief History of Scotland * Presented by Peter N. Williams, Ph.D. <http://www.britannia.com/wales/peter.html> *Chapter 1: Celtic Scotland* There is evidence of human settlement in parts of present day Scotland <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#> that dates back to 6,000 BC. The inhabitants were hunters and fishermen. About two thousand years later, a second group arrived -- the Neolithic people. Some of their stone houses remain in Orkney; the well-preserved stone-built village, Skara Brae <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>, attests to the wealth and stability of its builders. On the mainland, chambered tombs also show the sophisticated engineering of a settled, cooperative community. Then came the Beaker folk, named after the shape of their pottery. It is to these people that we owe the mysterious groups of huge stone circles and standing stones dotted hither and yon across the landscape. The Bronze Age, or rather, the early and late Bronze Ages, from about 2,000 to 600 BC, introduced swords, knives, chisels, buckles, cauldrons and buckets, all evidence of a high level of civilization and creature comfort that was enhanced by the metal craft learned in the so-called subsequent Iron Age. Such objects were used by the indigenous Picts, who lived in the region north of the Firth of Forth, and the Celts, who had come to live in regions of Britain and Ireland further south. It is to the invading Romans <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#> that we owe our written history of Britain; before their arrival, it simply wasn't the Celtic custom to entrust their history to anyone but the holy men and it was not to be written. The Romans, however, were always anxious to set down their military triumphs in writing, and from their historians a picture of Britain and its inhabitants began to emerge. In the fourth century, a Latin poem describes the people of Tartessos on the Atlantic coast of Iberia trading with the inhabitants of two large islands, Ierne and Albion (Ireland and Scotland), people who spoke a Celtic language. Ptolemy's geography (written about 150 AD includes a group of five islands lying between Scotland and Ireland. On them was built, a new structural form, the broch (a fortified dwelling), an immense round stone tower. The best preserved is found on Mousa in Shetland. Because they are perched on hills and headlands, the brochs seem to have been built by resident lords to protect their settlements from sea-borne raiders. In 55 and 54 BC following his success in subduing most of Gaul, Caesar turned his attention to the islands of Britain. However, for a few years afterwards, the Roman armies were fully occupied in suppressing the revolt of the Gauls on the continent under Vercingetorix, and so Britain was more-or-less left on its own, apart from its trading links with the Continent. Under the Emperor Claudius, Rome again began to look westwards to the misty lands over the sea, to a land full of legendary mineral wealth as well as good grain-growing pastures. Overcoming what amounted to only token resistance in the southeast, the Romans set up the frontier, the Fosse Way, running from Lincoln in the north to Essex in the southwest. Their prosperous villas attest to settled, peaceful conditions in the agricultural lands to the southeast. It was in the more mountainous areas west of the line, however, that the much sought-after minerals lay. And it was there that resistance was fiercest. The accounts given by Tacitus (written approximately half a century after those of Ptolemy) are particularly important, for his father-in-law was Agricola, appointed Governor of the Roman province of Britain. Agricola invaded what is now southern Scotland in 81 A.D. Before that, Roman garrisons had been established at Caerwent (near present-day Chepstow) in the south and Deva (Chester) in the north to keep a close eye on the Celtic tribesmen to the west, where the Romans found it necessary to destroy the Druid center of Wales on the Menai Straits. *84 AD - MONS GRAUPIUS* Farther north, under Agricola, the Roman armies vanquished one tribe after another until a final, decisive battle against Calgacus "the swordsman" at Mons Graupius in 84 A.D. This ended effective resistance (the Western Isles and the Highlands were left alone and up until the Clearances of the 18th century remained very much Celtic countries in language and culture). Though Agricola may have wished to add Ireland to his conquests, no Roman expedition was ever taken across the Celtic Sea to that large, relatively unknown western island. The Romans gave the country north of present-day Stirlingshire the name *Caledonia*. Much of the terrain is rugged and mountainous. In fact, three fifths of Scotland are mountain, hill and wind-swept moorland, unsuitable for agriculture and therefore not interesting to the Romans. In the Welsh language <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>, widely spoken throughout the area when the Romans arrived, it was known as *Coed Celyddon* (the Caledonian Forest), inhabited by spectres and madmen, including *Myrddyn Wyllt* (Mad Merlin). Tacitus refers to the inhabitants of the region as britanni. It was not only the nature of the terrain that caused the Romans to abandon their attempts at conquest but the unimagined terrors of this Celtic world. After the Roman armies had been recalled to Rome, following Mons Graupius, their strategy towards Scotland was mainly a defensive one. In 121 AD, upon a visit to Britain, the Emperor Hadrian had this still-impressive wall built from Solway in the West Coast to Tyne in the east. Twenty years later, the turf-built Antonine Wall, stretching from the Clyde to the Forth, followed its more famous stone predecessor. The Caledonians quickly learned to master the art of guerrilla warfare against a scattered, and no-doubt homesick Roman legion in the North, including those led by their aging and frustrated commander Severus. It wasn't long before the Antonine Wall was abandoned, and the troops of Rome withdrew south to the well known and much longer, stronger defensive barrier built by Hadrian. Trouble at home meant that by the end of the fourth century, the remaining Roman outposts in Scotland were abandoned. Any civilized benefits of Roman rule enjoyed by southern Britain were thus denied to their northern neighbors who were having troubles of their own. At the time of the withdrawal, Scotland (Alba or Alban) was divided between four different races. The Picts of Celtic, perhaps of Scythian stock, predominated lived from Caithness in the north to the Forth in the south. The Britons of Strathclyde stretched from the Clyde to the Solway and further south into Cumbria. The late arriving Teutonic Anglo-Saxons, held the lands to the east south of the Forth into Northumbria and the kingdom of Dalriada, to the west, including present-day Argyll <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>, (the land of the Gael). The Scots, from Northern Ireland occupied Kintyre and the neighboring islands in the third and fourth centuries. In perhaps typical Celtic fashion, the Picts and Scots spent more time fighting against each other than against their common enemies. *_Chapter 1: Celtic Scotland Continued_* <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2a.html> On 8/24/2011 3:00 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 - D?l > Fiatach (Paul Conroy) > 2. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe (Lochlan@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:58:38 -0400 > From: Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD > 500-800 - D?l Fiatach > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CA+2t2c6PNFie4UjCfcz4sDWis=QKpZdHccXRHPytJNR0yNKP-w@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Here's a link on the Erainn peoples in Ireland, which could also tie > together a few things: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn > > In early Irish genealogical tracts the ?rainn are regarded as an ethnic >> group, distinct from the Laigin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin> and >> Cruthin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruthin>. Population groups in >> Munster classed as ?rainn include the Corcu Lo?gde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde> in >> southwest County Cork<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Cork>, the >> M?scraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige> in Counties Cork >> andTipperary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Tipperary>, the Corcu >> Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne> in County Kerry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Kerry>, >> and the Corcu Baiscinn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscinn> in >> west County Clare<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Clare>. The D?l >> Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata> and D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> >> (or Ulaid<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaid>) in Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster> are >> also considered ?rainn. The ?rainn appear to have been a powerful group in >> the proto-historic period, but in early historical times were largely >> reduced to politically marginal status, with the notable exception of the >> enigmatic Osraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osraige>. The most >> important of the Munster ?rainn, the Corcu Lo?gde, retained some measure of >> prestige even after they had become marginalized by the E?ganachta<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta> in >> the 7th or 8th century.[7]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-6> It >> is likely that the sometimes powerful U? Liath?in<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Liath%C3%A1in> and >> their close kin the U? Fidgenti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Fidgenti> originally >> belonged to the ?rainn/D?irine as well, but were later counted among the >> E?ganachta for political reasons.[8]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-7> >> [9]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-8> Another >> prominent ?rainn people of early Munster are believed to have been the >> Mairtine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairtine>, who by the early >> historical period have completely vanished from the Irish landscape, >> although they may be in part ancestral to the later D?isi Tuisceart<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Tuisceart> >> and D?l gCais<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais>.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-9> >> The D?isi Muman<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Muman> may also >> have had ?rainn origins, but this has long been disputed. > > Note that Osraige is Ossory - where my family comes from. > > It seems likely the Iverni were related to the > Darini<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini> of >> eastern Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster>.[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-10> The >> name "Darini" implies descent from an ancestor called D?ire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire>, >> (**D?rios*)[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> as >> claimed by several historical peoples identified as ?rainn, including the >> D?l Riata and D?l Fiatach in eastern Ulster[12]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-11> as >> well the ?rainn of Munster. An early name for Dundrum, County Down<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundrum,_County_Down>, >> is recorded as *D?n Droma D?irine*, and the name D?irine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine> was >> applied to the Corcu Lo?gde, further suggesting a relationship between the >> Darini and the Iverni.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> > > The genealogies trace the descent of the ?rainn from two separate eponymous >> ancestors, Ailill ?rann and ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>. >> Legendary relatives of the latter include the Cland Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cland_Dedad> (offspring >> of Deda mac Sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deda_mac_Sin>), a Munster >> people who appear in the Ulster Cycle<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Cycle>, >> led by C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>, son of D?ire >> mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad>, and the >> legendary High King<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland> Conaire >> M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>, grandson of Iar and >> ancestor of the S?l Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>. >> The historical sept of the U? Maicc Iair ("grandsons of the son of Iar") and >> the MAQI IARI of ogham inscriptions also appear to be related.[13]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-12> The >> personal name *Iar* is simply another variant of the root present in >> Iverni and ?rainn.[14]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-13> Finally, >> the name *?th*, given in the genealogies as the ultimate ancestor of the >> Corcu Lo?gde (D?irine) and offering some confusion about their parentage and >> relation to the Iverni, in fact preserves the same Indo-European root * >> *peiH-* ("to be fat, swell"),[15]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-14> thus >> in effect completing a basic picture of the Iverni/?rainn and their kindred >> in later historical Ireland. > > C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD> = Conroy > Conaire = Conroy > > T. F. O'Rahilly<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._F._O%27Rahilly> identified >> the ?rainn with the mythological Fir Bolg<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg> and >> the historical Belgae<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae> of Gaul<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul> >> and Britain<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain>. He proposed >> that they invaded from Britain and spoke a Brythonic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages> language, >> which he named Ivernic and identified with a language referred to in a >> number of early sources as *Iarnnb?lrae*, *Iarnb?lrae*, and *Iarmb?rla*, >> which, if treated as Old Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish>, >> means "Iron-speech". The 9th-century Irish dictionary *Sanas Cormaic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic> >> * ("Cormac's glossary") describes *Iarnnb?lrae* as a recently extinct >> language which was "dense and difficult", and records two words which >> derived from it.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> However, >> by the proto-historical period the ?rainn were evidently Goidelic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goidelic>-speaking, >> as evidenced by the fact that ogham<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham> inscriptions >> in Primitive Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish> are most >> abundant in Counties Cork and Kerry.[16]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-15> > > More on C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C?_Ro? > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Gerry, >> >> I posted the following about 1 year ago on this list: >> >> Going back to the original subject, I see more info on "Conaire M?r" >> (Conroy the Great) here: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r >> >> Specifically that: >> A descendant of ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>, >> Conaire belonged to the legendary Clanna Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad>, >> the legendary royal family of the ?rainn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn>. >> His descendants in Ireland and Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland> were >> known as the S?l Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>. >> The last king in the direct male line from Conaire M?r was Alexander III >> of Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Scotland>. >> >> The Clanna Dedad has an interesting geneology:<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> >> Descent of the Clanna Dedad >> >> Skipped generations are given in the notes. >> >> - Sen mac Rosin<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sen_mac_Rosin&action=edit&redlink=1> >> [22]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-21> >> - Dedu mac Sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedu_mac_Sin> a quo *Clanna >> Dedad* >> - ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad> >> - Ailill Anglonnach<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ailill_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> >> - ?ogan [23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-22> >> - Etersc?l<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etersc%C3%A9l> >> - Conaire M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> a >> quo *S?l Conaire* >> - Mug L?ma >> - Conaire C?em<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_C%C3%B3em> >> [24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-23> >> - Eochaid (Cairpre) Riata (Rigfhota), a quo >> - *D?l Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata> >> * >> - Erc of Dalriada<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erc_of_Dalriada> >> [25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-24> >> - Fergus M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_M%C3%B3r> >> - Domangart R?ti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domangart_R%C3%A9ti> >> - Gabr?n mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabr%C3%A1n_mac_Domangairt>, >> a quo >> - *Cen?l nGabr?in* >> - *House of Alpin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Alpin> >> * >> - *House of Dunkeld<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dunkeld> >> * >> - Comgall mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comgall_mac_Domangairt>, >> a quo >> - *Cen?l Comgaill* >> - Loarn mac Eirc<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loarn_mac_Eirc>, >> a quo >> - *Cen?l Loairn* >> - *House of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Moray> >> * >> - *Mormaers of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaers_of_Moray> >> * >> - ?engus M?r mac Eirc, a quo >> - *Cen?l n?engusa<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cen%C3%A9l_n%C3%93engusa> >> * >> - Cairpre M?sc<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cairpre_M%C3%BAsc&action=edit&redlink=1>, >> a quo >> - *M?scraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige> >> * >> - Corc Duibne, a quo >> - *Corcu Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne> >> * >> - Cairpre Bascha?n, a quo >> - *Corcu Baiscind<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscind> >> * >> - D?ire mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad> / >> Dairi Sirchrechtaig / D?ire Doimthech<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_Doimthech> >> - C? Ro? mac D?ire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD_mac_D%C3%A1ire> >> - Lugaid mac Con Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugaid_mac_Con_Ro%C3%AD> >> - Fuirme mac Con Ro? [26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-25> >> - (F)Iatach Find<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn>, >> a quo >> - *D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> >> * >> - *D?irine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine>* >> - *Corcu Lo?gde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde> >> * [27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-26> >> [28]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-27> >> - Conganchnes mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conganchnes_mac_Dedad> >> - Conall Anglonnach mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conall_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> >> ,[29]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-28> a >> quo >> - *Conaille Muirtheimne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaille_Muirtheimne> >> * >> - Eochaid (Echdach/Echach) mac Sin [30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-29> >> - Deitsin/Deitsini >> - Dl?thaich/Dluthaig >> - D?ire/Dairi >> - Fir furmi [31]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-30> >> - Fiatach Finn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn> >> [32]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-31> / >> Fiachach Fir Umai [33]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-32> >> - *D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> >> * >> >> >> So the Dal Fiatach are actually related to the Dal Riata, both of North >> Eastern Ireland. >> >> They are also related to tribes in the South West of Ireland: >> 1. Corcu Duibne - West Co Kerry, Dingle Penninsula and related areas - >> O'Shea, O'Falvey and O'Connell >> 2. Corcu Lo?gde - West Co Cork - O'Driscoll (R-M222), Coffey<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffey> >> , O'Leary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Leary>, Hennessy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennessy_(disambiguation)> >> , Flynn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn>, Dinneen<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinneen> >> . O'Hea<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hea>, Cronin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronin> >> , Dunlea<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunlea&action=edit&redlink=1> >> 3. Corcu Bascind - South Co Clare - O'Baskin, MacDermot, >> O'Donnell/MacDonnell (R-M222), MacMahon >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Gerry<gerry@ringofgullion.com> wrote: >> >>> John, >>> >>> I might be able to shed some light on the Y-DNA of the D?l Fiatach, from >>> two >>> sources. One is the McEvoy study and the other is some research that Jerry >>> Kelly, of this list, has just done for me. >>> >>> ========================================================================= >>> 1) McEvoy et al. >>> >>> John posted this some time ago which he culled from the McEvoy study: >>> Dunleavy Haughey MCGUINNESS >>> >>> 5 M222 of 12 14 M222 of 19 24 M222 of 99 >>> Ulster (1) Most in Ulster Ulster >>> (11) >>> Leinster (2) Associated with Donegal&Armagh Connacht (10) >>> Munster (1) O hEochaidh Leinster >>> (3) >>> Connacht (1) >>> >>> I post the McGuinnes just to emphasize what John posted below. They are >>> generally not M222, but HG I. >>> >>> McEvoy normalized all of his names to one spelling. He normalized Haughey >>> and McGuinness, so we don't know the original spellings of >>> Haughey/Hoey/Hoy. >>> >>> As John noted above, the Haughey spelling is common in Donegal and Armagh >>> while Hoey/Hoy is common in Louth and the surrounding counties. >>> >>> The Annals say that the Mac Dunveavys were expelled by the Normans from >>> Ulidia and some went to Donegal (McInulty sp?). It is also said that some >>> of >>> the ? hEochaidh went with them since they were really the same family, >>> (see >>> Jerry Kelly's work below). >>> >>> So, if any of McEvoy's M222 Haughey were from Donegal, they were from D?l >>> Fiatach, which was their region of Ulidia. This points to the D?l Fiatach >>> being M222. >>> >>> If any of McEvoy's Haughey were from the Louth area, they were really >>> Hoey/Hoy/? hEochaidh. The ? hEochaidh were from D?l Fiatach. My family is >>> Hoy from mid-Louth and is M222. This points to the D?l Fiatach being M222. >>> >>> Note. A NPE from say, Donegal for my Louth family, is not likely since my >>> M222 matches are half Irish and half Scots, which makes sense for a family >>> based near Downptrick. >>> >>> >>> =========================================================================== >>> 2) Jerry Kelly's research. >>> >>> I thrashed around for months trying to understand what the Annals that I >>> had >>> access to, meant about my family. I gave up and went to Jerry Kelly who is >>> a >>> fluent Irish speaker and also understands the nuances of the Annals. >>> >>> He found that the ? hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshl?ibhe were on the main branch of >>> the D?l Fiatach rulers and that the Mac Duinnshl?ibhe had barely split >>> from >>> the ? hEochaidh before the Normans arrived. >>> >>> ?So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined >>> to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the >>> rigdamnai >>> set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac >>> Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)." Byrne, page 128 >>> >>> The ? hEochaidh family, (Sloinne ? hEochaidh as Jerry taught me) took the >>> name from Eochaidh mac Ardghair, who died in 979. Before that it was just >>> "son of, son of, ..." >>> >>> Jerry used the non-translated Irish Annals to trace the line back reliably >>> to 455 and less reliably earlier. >>> >>> So the ? hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshl?ibhe line were the ruling family of D?l >>> Fiatach back to the time of Patrick. Jerry has another story of how the >>> family got to Louth with the help of the O'Loughlins and O'Carrols, but >>> that >>> is for another time. >>> >>> ========================================================================== >>> >>> Conclusion. >>> >>> With McEvoy's Haugheys and Jerry's work with the Annals and my M222 test >>> and >>> unusual matches, I pretty sure that the D?l Fiatach were M222, at least on >>> the main line. >>> >>> We also know that in tribal societies, the bottom tier doesn't reproduce >>> itself and the top tier over produces. So some people fall down each >>> generation and eventually, on the male line, everyone is related. So if >>> the >>> ruling line is M222, so are all. >>> >>> Gerry Hoy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com >>> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 11:58 PM >>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 >>> >>> Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui >>> Neill >>> (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into >>> Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of >>> the >>> territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of >>> Ptolemy >>> (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the >>> Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his >>> argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries >>> to >>> connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain >>> to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems >>> completely off-base. >>> >>> Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes? >>> >>> The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off >>> shoot >>> of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co. >>> Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness, >>> associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest >>> idea >>> what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it. >>> >>> >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:12:31 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<3dad.6b0571ea.3b859bef@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > jerrykelly@irishtribes.com writes: > > But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did not have ready access > to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac > Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through O'Donovan's TRIBES AND > CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY FIACHRACH. After waiting for > 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally published by De B?rca > Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght disagree on a family origin, > I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. > > The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a while. > Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end. Not for the faint of heart. > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) > > > > I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a copy of O'Hart's Irish > pedigrees open on his desk at all times. I don't know if that's true or > not. It was not comforting to hear. > > > John > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 276 > ****************************************** >

The Higgins of Co. Galway and Co. Sligo claim be Cenel Fiachach. The DNA test from Higgins who claim to be from Co. Galway and Co. Sligo are amongst a number of Higgins M222+ Hence this would suggest that Cenel Fiachach is M222+. If Cenel Fiachach is M222+ then other families of Cenel Fiachach should be M222+ like the Geoghegans and O'Molloys. Geoghegans and O'Molloys have M222+ populations. Yet Cenel Fiachach cannot be M222+, they are not from Scotland?

Thanks Jerry. You might be interested to know that Nollaig Ó Muraíle, who published the Leabhar na nGenealach, is one of the Irish collaborators on the new academic surname dictionary project run by Patrick Hanks and Richard Coates http://www1.uwe.ac.uk/cahe/elc/research/researchcentresandgroups/fanuk.aspx along with Dr Kay Muhr who is a leading authority on Ulster place-names http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/SchoolofLanguagesLiteraturesandPerformingArts/SubjectAreas/IrishandCelticStudies/StaffProfiles/DrKayMuhr/ I think they are a bit luke-warm on using DNA results directly although they have taken an interest in the subject. They are taking information gathered by members of the Guild of One-name Studies so I hope to have some minor influence on the (O')Kennedy entry. Woulfe and MacLysaght give conflicting etymologies for Kennedy so I am expecting some interesting discussions. Iain > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:49:30 -0700 > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe > > Go raibh maith agat, a Iain. / Thank you, Iain. > > I think you're right. As far as I know de Bhulbh was a native speaker. > > But the amazing thing I remember from reading Woulfe's introduction to his book is that he collected much or most of his information, not just surnames but also clans and tribes, directly ó bhéalaibh na ndaoine / from the mouths of the people - aged refugees of the Great Hunger who roughly 60 years later he found as he was doing his rounds as a priest in poorhouses and hospitals in Scotland and England. > > So, my understanding is that Woulfe had access to the oral tradition, strong and extremely accurate in Irish-speaking areas up until the Famine, while MacLysaght had access to almost all the manuscripts we have today. So I usually go on the assumption that MacLysaght's manuscripts correct the rare mistakes which crept into the béaloideas / oral tradition. > > But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did not have ready access to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through O'Donovan's TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY FIACHRACH. After waiting for 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally published by De Búrca Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght disagree on a family origin, I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. > > Sin iad mo smaointe ar aon chuma. Go raibh siad cabhrach. / Those are my thoughts, anyway. Hope they're helpful. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Jerry > > > > --- On Tue, 8/23/11, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 2:30 AM > > > > > An excellent book, sometimes corrected by MacLysaght, > > but excellent nevertheless. > > > > Indeed, but frustratingly where he does 'correct' he gives > > no explanation or source as to why Woulfe was wrong, > > although in his introduction he makes much of the earlier > > lack of availability of Middle Irish dictionaries such as > > the massive RIA work. So what are to make of it when they > > disagree? Was his command of modern Irish better (he appears > > to only have been introduced to it in his college years > > whereas I believe Woulfe was a native speaker from the > > start) and how significant is the middle Irish issue? I > > would be interested in your thoughts. > > Iain > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:42:38 -0700 > > > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe > > > > > > Bob a chara, > > > > > > MacLysaght is still under copyright buy Sloinnte > > Gaedheal Is Gall (Surnames of the Gaeil and Gaill) by an > > t-Athair Pádraig de Bhulbh (Fr. Patrick Woulfe) is > > available at: > > > > > > http://www.libraryireland.com/names/contents.php > > > > > > An excellent book, sometimes corrected by MacLysaght, > > but excellent nevertheless. > > > > > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > > > Jerry > > > > > > Treibheanna Éireannacha > > > www.irishtribes.com > > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí > > Néill? > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 12:38 PM > > > > > > > > Thank you, Gerry. Is there any way to get > > McLysacht's read > > > > on names other than to buy the book? I had > > no luck on > > > > the Internet. Regards, Bob > > > > > > > > Bob Quinn > > > > President&CEO > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street > > Partners > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > > > 27 Langton Lane > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > > > T:610-331-4920 > > > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 09:17:21 -0700 > > > > > From: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél > > Maine - > > > > truly Uí Néill? > > > > > > > > > > Bob a chara, > > > > > > > > > > Someone may have answered this already but > > Quinn is > > > > short for X Cuinn / X of Conn. Cuinn is the > > genitive > > > > of Conn, a grammatical way to say 'of > > Conn'. Mac Cuinn > > > > would be Son of Conn. Ó Cuinn would be > > Grandson of > > > > Conn. But the 'of' part is in Cuinn, not in > > Mac or > > > > Ó. > > > > > > > > > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > > > > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/21/11, Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bob Quinn <raaq@live.com> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - > > truly Uí > > > > Néill? > > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 21, 2011, 2:23 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Would like to know his opinion. > > Everyone else > > > > thinks it is > > > > > > Son of Conn. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob Quinn > > > > > > President&CEO > > > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > > > > > > > > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay > > Street > > > > Partners > > > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's > > Roundtable > > > > > > 27 Langton Lane > > > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > > > > > T:610-331-4920 > > > > > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > > > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 > > +0100 > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine > > - truly > > > > Uí > > > > > > Néill? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you or anyone else know what > > McLysacht > > > > gives for > > > > > > the derivation of the > > > > > > > surname Quinn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] > > > > > > On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > > > > > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29 > > > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine > > - truly > > > > Uí > > > > > > Néill? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS > > 19,439,442. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob Quinn > > > > > > > President&CEO > > > > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical > > Consultants > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Partner at Bay Street > > Investors/Bay Street > > > > Partners > > > > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's > > Roundtable > > > > > > > 27 Langton Lane > > > > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > > > > > > T:610-331-4920 > > > > > > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > > > > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: raaq@live.com > > > > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 > > 10:06:30 -0400 > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél > > Maine - > > > > truly Uí > > > > > > Néill? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in any > > resource for > > > > Haplotypes of > > > > > > the early Celts, so I'll > > > > > > > be watching for feedback. I am > > included in > > > > R-M222 and > > > > > > my Quinns/Murphys are > > > > > > > from Armagh. The Davidski studies > > indicate a > > > > higher > > > > > > Scandinavain component > > > > > > > for me than for most Irish. Does > > this mean > > > > anything to > > > > > > anybody? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob Quinn > > > > > > > > President&CEO > > > > > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical > > Consultants > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Partner at Bay Street > > Investors/Bay > > > > Street > > > > > > Partners > > > > > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI > > Manufacturer's > > > > Roundtable > > > > > > > > 27 Langton Lane > > > > > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > > > > > > > T:610-331-4920 > > > > > > > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > > > > > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > > > > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 > > 09:48:52 > > > > +0100 > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] > > Cenél Maine > > > > - truly > > > > > > Uí Néill? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bernard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think the > > MagCargamni is a > > > > candidate > > > > > > for the origins of > > > > > > > McHarg/Mac > > > > > > > > > Giolla Chairge? Also, > > can you > > > > point me to > > > > > > his haplotype? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've found an > > interesting match > > > > between > > > > > > Ewing and a Quinn, with matches > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > DYS 19,439,442 = > > 15,13,11. I don't > > > > think the > > > > > > Quinn is from O'Quin > > > > > > > though. I > > > > > > > > > think he's from > > Mackquein, which > > > > may be from > > > > > > McEwen of Ottir. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original > > Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] > > > > > > On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > > > > > > > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 > > 07:04 > > > > > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7 > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] > > Cenél Maine > > > > - truly > > > > > > Uí Néill? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course I have a > > vested interest > > > > in > > > > > > understanding Cenel Maine, however > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > hadn't taken the step > > to > > > > investigate the > > > > > > claim against Cenel Maine. > > > > > > > Brynes’s > > > > > > > > > argument - that Cenel > > Maine has > > > > conflicting > > > > > > pedigree and that closeness > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > Ui Maine means that they > > are Ui > > > > Maine Fails. > > > > > > For Dobbs shows that "Cenel > > > > > > > > > Maine" originates in a > > seperate > > > > location > > > > > > distant from Ui Maine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research > > and Links: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the > > list, > > > > please send an > > > > > > email to > > > > > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body > > of the > > > > message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and > > Links: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, > > please > > > > send an > > > > > > email to > > > > > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body > > of the > > > > message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, > > please send an > > > > email to > > > > > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body > > of the > > > > message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, > > please send an > > > > email to > > > > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in > > > > the > > > > > > subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please > > send an > > > > email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in > > > > the > > > > > > subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > > email to > > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > > the > > > > subject and the body of the message 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In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jerrykelly@irishtribes.com writes: But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did not have ready access to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through O'Donovan's TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY FIACHRACH. After waiting for 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally published by De Búrca Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght disagree on a family origin, I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a while. Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end. Not for the faint of heart. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a copy of O'Hart's Irish pedigrees open on his desk at all times. I don't know if that's true or not. It was not comforting to hear. John

John, You quoted: > 322. Gno-mor, a territory in the west of the county of Galway; it > comprised the northern and larger part of the barony of Moycullen, in the > county of > Galway. See Ogygia, part iii., c. 82. These were of the race of Lughaidh > Dealbhaedh - of the Dalcassian race. The family of MacConroi have all > anglicised their name to King, and their seat of Ballymaconry is now > called > Kingston! See Hardiman's edition of O'Flaherty's Iar-Connaught, pp. 52, > 54, 62, > 156, 252, 255, 391, 392. > 323. Gno-beg. - This territory comprised the southern and smaller portion > of the said barony of Moycullen. See Iar-Connaught, ubi supra. The name > O'Hadhnaidh is now anglicised Heyny, without the prefix O'. This unfortunately is NOT correct today, in that names that were once Anglicized in one time and place in Ireland, are frequently re-Anglicized a second, third or more times. So that today Galway families descended from MacConraoi do not call themselves King today, but Conroy by and large. Same with Heyny, I've never heard that name in Ireland, but have often heard Heaney. I have mentioned this theme many times before on the list. For example "O'Duinn" were originally Anglicized to Doyen, then Doyne, then Dunn, then Dunne - so especially with emigrants leaving for the US or elsewhere, the earlier the time of emigration, the earlier the Anglicized variant of their name they will have. So I have matches with people called Doyen, so I can say with some confidence that they emigrated 150 to 200 years ago. Here's an interesting link on the Conroy family of Moycullen: http://books.google.com/books?id=6g5WXZVxbIoC&lpg=PA60&ots=3LcwonWlqz&dq=Moycullen%20conroy&pg=PA60#v=onepage&q=Moycullen%20conroy&f=false Cheers, Paul On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 7:36 PM, <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > 322. Gno-mor, a territory in the west of the county of Galway; it > comprised the northern and larger part of the barony of Moycullen, in the > county of > Galway. See Ogygia, part iii., c. 82. These were of the race of Lughaidh > Dealbhaedh - of the Dalcassian race. The family of MacConroi have all > anglicised their name to King, and their seat of Ballymaconry is now > called > Kingston! See Hardiman's edition of O'Flaherty's Iar-Connaught, pp. 52, > 54, 62, > 156, 252, 255, 391, 392. > 323. Gno-beg. - This territory comprised the southern and smaller portion > of the said barony of Moycullen. See Iar-Connaught, ubi supra. The name > O'Hadhnaidh is now anglicised Heyny, without the prefix O'. >

Hi, John, My late grandmother was Dorothy Elizabeth Ashley, of New Bedford, Massachusetts. Doug On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:23 PM, John Robertson <j2r1@jrshelby.com> wrote: > Bob wrote: > Who was born in 1814 (second line) , and whose kit is 43143 ? I have a > hard time following this. Thanks. Bob > ============================================================ > > I am the kit owner, and have been a member of this list an hour or so: > John Ashley Robertson > > Perhaps this has already been answered. > > Moses Ashley was born 1814. This is the surname of my father's mother, > and I was fishing a bit by being in the Ashley group. I am unaware of > any connection he might have had with MA Ashleys. > > ...and I am having a bit of a problem following it myself. > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Bob wrote: Who was born in 1814 (second line) , and whose kit is 43143 ? I have a hard time following this. Thanks. Bob ============================================================ I am the kit owner, and have been a member of this list an hour or so: John Ashley Robertson Perhaps this has already been answered. Moses Ashley was born 1814. This is the surname of my father's mother, and I was fishing a bit by being in the Ashley group. I am unaware of any connection he might have had with MA Ashleys. ...and I am having a bit of a problem following it myself. John