I always had a struggle with the truth-problem concerning the tale of our pre-history ancestors. The stories of Art mac Cuinn and his son Cormac mac Airt are set at Tara, co. Meath. Yet in a time well before the Southern Ui Neill had actually driven the Laigin from from it, i.e. the tales are historically untrue in regard to location/time. I have been hesitant to accept the argument for Turoe, co. Galway, for it does not (for me) fit the Ui Neill distribution. However I have always assume Dal Cuinn was the leading family of our pre-history. Yet “The Expulsion of the Deisi” a tale telling of the exclusion of Dal Fiachach from tribe's kingship, reminds of other similar later tales told to explain the exclusion of senior families from kingship. Could the Southern Dal Cuinn have upsurged the Dal Fiachach and lead to a transfer of the royal location away from the tribal origin to an upstart on the periphery? As the Northern Ui Neill would do so to the Southern Ui Neill. > From: pconroy63@gmail.com > Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 14:02:56 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Laud 610 > > The alternative Tara (aka Teamhair) is Turoe (aka Teamhair) in East county > Galway. > > The basic idea was that a large Fir Bolg (aka Belgae, La Tene Celts) > invasion occurred in the area. > > More here: > http://homepage.tinet.ie/~Williamfinnerty/sd1.htm > > Note: the Turoe Stone is distinctively La Tene (Celtic Iron Age) in style, > and one of only 3 in Ireland, the next nearest is in Roscommon. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoe_stone > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlestrange_stone > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Bernard Morgan > <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com>wrote: >

The mention of Ossary "who first planted house-posts in Tara" is interesting in regard to Dal Fiachach. For Dal Fiachach takes the Ossary lands in "The Explusion of the Deisi". Paul, where is the alternative Tara location by the Shannon? >From Éigse: a journal of Irish studies, Volume 21, 1984; "The Deisi and Dyfed": "... It follows from all of this we must be careful in drawing inferences from any statement made about the Deisi in the texts: are they referring to the people and territories of what we know today as Waterford and south Tipperary? Or to the genealogical entity known as Dal Fiachach Suidge? Or, more generally, to vassal or rent-paying tribes? As far as ED is concerned, this matter of the ambiguity of Deisi can be dealt with by giving a broad outline of the story and then going on to establish at what points in the narrative the different meanings of Deisi come into play. ED tells of the explusion of the Deisi from Meath, their sojourn in Leinster, and their settlement in Wales and Munster. The story opens with the statement that Art Corb (of Dal Fiachach Suidge) had four sons, Brecc, Oengus, Echaid and Forad. The son of Cormac mac Airt. King of Tara, ravish Forad’s daughter, and Oengus went to the king’s court in search of the girl. There Oengus attacked and killed the king’s son, and he also inadvertently blinded the king in one eye. Oengus escaped, taking Forad's daughter with him. Since the loss of his eye was a blemish (ainem), Cormac was thereby disqualified from holding the kingship, and he was obliged to leave Tara. The Deisi were driven into Leinster; the account of their sojourn there is confused and chronologically inconsistent, and we shall have to return to it. For the present it will be enough to say that the Deisi were welcomed in Leinster by Fiachu ba Aiccid, who settled them in territories he had seized from the Ui Bairrche. There the Deisi remained until the time of Crimthann son of Enna Ceinselach, when the Ui Baircche forcibly reposed their territories, and the Deisi were taken to Ard Ladrann by Crimthann. In the meantime, Echaid son of Art Corb had gone to Dyfed with his family and settled there. Those of the Deisi who had gone to Ard Ladrann did not remain there for long, for after Crimthann's death they were driven out once more, first into Osraige, and then to the south-west. Finally, they entered into an alliance with Oengus son of Nad-Fraich, king of Cashel : Ethne Uathach of the Deisi was betrothed to Oengus, and the Deisi in return were permitted to drive the Osraige out of their territories in what is now south County Tipperary, and settle there themselves. Eithne Uathach gathered together all the exiled groups in Ireland to help the Deisi, who eventually routed the Osraige and settle in their territory. In attempting to disentangle the different senses in which Deisi is used in this story, I think we can say that it was Dal Fiachach Suidge who were expelled from Meath and spent a period in Leinster, that it was one of their branches which crossed the sea to Dyfed, and that it was other of their branches which were to settle territories wrested from the Osraige in what is now south County Tipperary. It is in the course of the attempt by Dal Fiachach to drive the Osraige out of those territories that we come across Deisi in the sense of 'vassal-tribes'. The Osraige defeat the invaders in seven battles (R 16; L 100 f. Others give the number of battles as thirty, L 101). Because Dal Fiachach have been depleted in many battles, Ethne gathers to them every migratory band of which she knows in Ireland (R §22; L 104 f.) The point in the sequence of events at which we are told of Ethne's action differs in L and R ; in L, it is after the Osraige have won seven (or thirty) victories in battle but before they have been routed ; in R, Ethne's action is revealed after the account of the rout. In any case, the claim of ED here is that Dal Fiachach acquired these tribes as allies at some stage of their settlement of their Munster territories, and that Dal Fiachach and the allied tribes henceforth constituted the Deisi. The texts go on to make a distinction between Dal Fiachach and the Deisi properly (that is, etymologically) so called : 'There are fifty migratory bands among the Deisi . . . and it is these migratory bands which are called Deisi, for they are under the rent and legal obligation and croft-rent (bothachas) of vassals to lords, that is, to Dal Fiachach Suidge, and the latter are not called Deisi (R 22; cf. L 215 ff.). The account in ED of their settlement in East Munster purports to tell us how the Deisi were constituted ; what the origin was of the relationship between Dal Fiachach and the other constituent groups, on the one hand, and of that between Dal Fiachach and the Eoganacht dynasty of Cashel, on the other; and how the Deisi established themselves in their Tipperary territories. There are many other points of interest (and not a few difficulties) in the treatment of these matters in our texts, but a discussion of them must await another occasion." > From: pconroy63@gmail.com > Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 11:17:57 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Laud 610 > > That's interesting: > > > > 36. Three sons of Búan mac Lóegaire Birn, from whom are [descended] the > > Osraige; i.e. Ailill, Óengus [and] Fíacc, who first planted house-posts > > in Tara. > > > Again, Osraige (aka Ossary) is Western Laois and Northern Kilkenny and parts > of North East Tipperary - the area my family has lived in since > time immemorial. It borders on the territory known as "Ely O'Carroll", which > I presume is the same as "Éle" mentioned above. > > Ossary contains a lot of M222+, such as Dunn(e) and Daltons. > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Bernard Morgan > <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > >From the Book of Ballymote: > > "Cuic mc. la Feidlimid .r. {68b} .i. Conn .c.c. o raiter Leith Cuind, & > > Cael a quo Caelraighe & Crinda & Croisine & Eochu find fuath nairt, no fuath > > nandhea & is uadh Fotharta & Fiacha suighe a quo na Desi & Fiacha raidhe a > > quo Corca Raidhe." > > > > Dal Fiachach Suighe descend from a brother of Conn of a hundred battles. > > They settle in Tipperary (i.e. of the Dessi), yet others the Corca Raidhe > > the progeny of Fiacha Raidhe mac Fiacha Suighdhe have the barony of > > Corkaree, Co. Westmeath named for them. This is within the realm of Cenel > > Fiachach mac Neill. > > > > (The tale of "The Explusion of the Dessi", tells of Dal Fiachach Suighe > > loss of power.) > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

>From the Book of Ballymote: "Cuic mc. la Feidlimid .r. {68b} .i. Conn .c.c. o raiter Leith Cuind, & Cael a quo Caelraighe & Crinda & Croisine & Eochu find fuath nairt, no fuath nandhea & is uadh Fotharta & Fiacha suighe a quo na Desi & Fiacha raidhe a quo Corca Raidhe." Dal Fiachach Suighe descend from a brother of Conn of a hundred battles. They settle in Tipperary (i.e. of the Dessi), yet others the Corca Raidhe the progeny of Fiacha Raidhe mac Fiacha Suighdhe have the barony of Corkaree, Co. Westmeath named for them. This is within the realm of Cenel Fiachach mac Neill. (The tale of "The Explusion of the Dessi", tells of Dal Fiachach Suighe loss of power.)

The alternative Tara (aka Teamhair) is Turoe (aka Teamhair) in East county Galway. The basic idea was that a large Fir Bolg (aka Belgae, La Tene Celts) invasion occurred in the area. More here: http://homepage.tinet.ie/~Williamfinnerty/sd1.htm Note: the Turoe Stone is distinctively La Tene (Celtic Iron Age) in style, and one of only 3 in Ireland, the next nearest is in Roscommon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoe_stone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlestrange_stone On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com>wrote: > > The mention of Ossary "who first planted house-posts in Tara" is > interesting in regard to Dal Fiachach. For Dal Fiachach takes the Ossary > lands in "The Explusion of the Deisi". Paul, where is the alternative Tara > location by the Shannon? > > >From Éigse: a journal of Irish studies, Volume 21, 1984; "The Deisi and > Dyfed": > "... It follows from all of this we must be careful in drawing inferences > from any statement made about the Deisi in the texts: are they referring to > the people and territories of what we know today as Waterford and south > Tipperary? Or to the genealogical entity known as Dal Fiachach Suidge? Or, > more generally, to vassal or rent-paying tribes? As far as ED is concerned, > this matter of the ambiguity of Deisi can be dealt with by giving a broad > outline of the story and then going on to establish at what points in the > narrative the different meanings of Deisi come into play. > ED tells of the explusion of the Deisi from Meath, their sojourn in > Leinster, and their settlement in Wales and Munster. The story opens with > the statement that Art Corb (of Dal Fiachach Suidge) had four sons, Brecc, > Oengus, Echaid and Forad. The son of Cormac mac Airt. King of Tara, ravish > Forad’s daughter, and Oengus went to the king’s court in search of the girl. > There Oengus attacked and killed the king’s son, and he also inadvertently > blinded the king in one eye. Oengus escaped, taking Forad's daughter with > him. Since the loss of his eye was a blemish (ainem), Cormac was thereby > disqualified from holding the kingship, and he was obliged to leave Tara. > The Deisi were driven into Leinster; the account of their sojourn there is > confused and chronologically inconsistent, and we shall have to return to > it. For the present it will be enough to say that the Deisi were welcomed in > Leinster by Fiachu ba Aiccid, who settled them in territories he had seized > from the Ui Bairrche. There the Deisi remained until the time of Crimthann > son of Enna Ceinselach, when the Ui Baircche forcibly reposed their > territories, and the Deisi were taken to Ard Ladrann by Crimthann. In the > meantime, Echaid son of Art Corb had gone to Dyfed with his family and > settled there. Those of the Deisi who had gone to Ard Ladrann did not remain > there for long, for after Crimthann's death they were driven out once more, > first into Osraige, and then to the south-west. Finally, they entered into > an alliance with Oengus son of Nad-Fraich, king of Cashel : Ethne Uathach of > the Deisi was betrothed to Oengus, and the Deisi in return were permitted to > drive the Osraige out of their territories in what is now south County > Tipperary, and settle there themselves. Eithne Uathach gathered together all > the exiled groups in Ireland to help the Deisi, who eventually routed the > Osraige and settle in their territory. > In attempting to disentangle the different senses in which Deisi is used in > this story, I think we can say that it was Dal Fiachach Suidge who were > expelled from Meath and spent a period in Leinster, that it was one of their > branches which crossed the sea to Dyfed, and that it was other of their > branches which were to settle territories wrested from the Osraige in what > is now south County Tipperary. It is in the course of the attempt by Dal > Fiachach to drive the Osraige out of those territories that we come across > Deisi in the sense of 'vassal-tribes'. The Osraige defeat the invaders in > seven battles (R 16; L 100 f. Others give the number of battles as thirty, L > 101). Because Dal Fiachach have been depleted in many battles, Ethne gathers > to them every migratory band of which she knows in Ireland (R §22; L 104 f.) > The point in the sequence of events at which we are told of Ethne's action > differs in L and R ; in L, it is after the Osraige have won seven (or > thirty) victories in battle but before they have been routed ; in R, Ethne's > action is revealed after the account of the rout. In any case, the claim of > ED here is that Dal Fiachach acquired these tribes as allies at some stage > of their settlement of their Munster territories, and that Dal Fiachach and > the allied tribes henceforth constituted the Deisi. The texts go on to make > a distinction between Dal Fiachach and the Deisi properly (that is, > etymologically) so called : 'There are fifty migratory bands among the Deisi > . . . and it is these migratory bands which are called Deisi, for they are > under the rent and legal obligation and croft-rent (bothachas) of vassals to > lords, that is, to Dal Fiachach Suidge, and the latter are not called Deisi > (R 22; cf. L 215 ff.). The account in ED of their settlement in East Munster > purports to tell us how the Deisi were constituted ; what the origin was of > the relationship between Dal Fiachach and the other constituent groups, on > the one hand, and of that between Dal Fiachach and the Eoganacht dynasty of > Cashel, on the other; and how the Deisi established themselves in their > Tipperary territories. There are many other points of interest (and not a > few difficulties) in the treatment of these matters in our texts, but a > discussion of them must await another occasion." > > > > > From: pconroy63@gmail.com > > Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 11:17:57 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Laud 610 > > > > That's interesting: > > > > > > 36. Three sons of Búan mac Lóegaire Birn, from whom are [descended] the > > > Osraige; i.e. Ailill, Óengus [and] Fíacc, who first planted house-posts > > > in Tara. > > > > > > Again, Osraige (aka Ossary) is Western Laois and Northern Kilkenny and > parts > > of North East Tipperary - the area my family has lived in since > > time immemorial. It borders on the territory known as "Ely O'Carroll", > which > > I presume is the same as "Éle" mentioned above. > > > > Ossary contains a lot of M222+, such as Dunn(e) and Daltons. > > > > Cheers, > > Paul > > > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Bernard Morgan > > <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >From the Book of Ballymote: > > > "Cuic mc. la Feidlimid .r. {68b} .i. Conn .c.c. o raiter Leith Cuind, & > > > Cael a quo Caelraighe & Crinda & Croisine & Eochu find fuath nairt, no > fuath > > > nandhea & is uadh Fotharta & Fiacha suighe a quo na Desi & Fiacha > raidhe a > > > quo Corca Raidhe." > > > > > > Dal Fiachach Suighe descend from a brother of Conn of a hundred > battles. > > > They settle in Tipperary (i.e. of the Dessi), yet others the Corca > Raidhe > > > the progeny of Fiacha Raidhe mac Fiacha Suighdhe have the barony of > > > Corkaree, Co. Westmeath named for them. This is within the realm of > Cenel > > > Fiachach mac Neill. > > > > > > (The tale of "The Explusion of the Dessi", tells of Dal Fiachach Suighe > > > loss of power.) > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you John for this piece of Irish work on their (our) pre-historical. Old-Irish-l translated under the title of "De Bunad Imthechta Eóganachta", which O'Corrain says is "very likely, from the late ninth century or very early tenth". And the web site http://www.vanhamel.nl/wiki/index.php?title=Do_bunad_imthechta_%C3%89oganachta gives the following description: "Origin legend of the Éoganachta. It first relates how Éogan (the eponymous ancestor of the Éoganachta) and/or his sons arrived and settled in Ireland, how Éogan (the father or one of his sons) saved the population from starvation, and how Éogan's son was chosen to be king. Their peaceful ascendancy is then contrasted with an origin tale of the Dál Cuinn (called children of the "second Míl Espáine"), who are said to have ruled Ireland by the sword. In the north of the island, they alternately shared the kingship with the Cruthin until Conn Cétchathach defeated them in a series of battles. The situation was reversed when Fiachu Araide, from whom sprang the Dál Araide, expelled Conn's grandson Cormac mac Airt from Tara. Cormac fled to Munster, where he became a vassal of Fiachu Muillethan, Éogan's great-grandson, in return for his assistance against Fiachu Araide. Fiachu Muillethan defeated the latter in battle. Cormac was thereby restored to the kingship and granted the lands settled by the Ciannachta to Fiachu Muillethan, who passed them on to Connla mac Taidg." So Dal Cuinn ancestor is the unknown "second Mil Espaine" and battle the Cruthin a seperate people in the north of Ireland. Now we known the descendants for Dal Cuinn are M222+ (i..e Northern Ui Neill, Southern Ui Neill and Connachta in general) then are the Dál Fíachach, who lived in the kingdom of Éle, a NON-Éoganacht kingdom in northern Munster (per the old-Irish-l archives) also M222+? I find from the IHM website that "The Fiachach Eile (in north-east of Tipperary - Thurles and Roscrea) were descended from Deachluath, grandson of Eoghan Mor (ancestor of the Eoghanacta)." Yet north-east of Tipperary was held by the southern Ui Neill, so is there a link between Dal Fiachach and the Ui Fiachach of the Southern Ui Neill pedigrees?

That's interesting: > > 36. Three sons of Búan mac Lóegaire Birn, from whom are [descended] the > Osraige; i.e. Ailill, Óengus [and] Fíacc, who first planted house-posts > in Tara. Again, Osraige (aka Ossary) is Western Laois and Northern Kilkenny and parts of North East Tipperary - the area my family has lived in since time immemorial. It borders on the territory known as "Ely O'Carroll", which I presume is the same as "Éle" mentioned above. Ossary contains a lot of M222+, such as Dunn(e) and Daltons. Cheers, Paul On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com>wrote: > > > >From the Book of Ballymote: > "Cuic mc. la Feidlimid .r. {68b} .i. Conn .c.c. o raiter Leith Cuind, & > Cael a quo Caelraighe & Crinda & Croisine & Eochu find fuath nairt, no fuath > nandhea & is uadh Fotharta & Fiacha suighe a quo na Desi & Fiacha raidhe a > quo Corca Raidhe." > > Dal Fiachach Suighe descend from a brother of Conn of a hundred battles. > They settle in Tipperary (i.e. of the Dessi), yet others the Corca Raidhe > the progeny of Fiacha Raidhe mac Fiacha Suighdhe have the barony of > Corkaree, Co. Westmeath named for them. This is within the realm of Cenel > Fiachach mac Neill. > > (The tale of "The Explusion of the Dessi", tells of Dal Fiachach Suighe > loss of power.) > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Laud 610, one of the oldest if not the oldest collection of genealogies and tribal histories, has a section on the origin of the Dal Cuinn. I just found a translation for it done by some one the Old Irish list. John Mac Neill in his notes to Laud 610 states that: "the origin story of Dal Cuinn, p. 313, indicating an early form of the legend of Mail, ancestor here not of all the Gaedhil but only of the race of Conn, who conquered the Picts, with whom his ancestors had shared the sovereignty;" I suspect not all it is correctly translated but it seems close. There are couple of odd statements. In one, the unnamed ancestor of the Dal Cuinn is called the "second" Mil Espaine. In another section it seems to say the Dal Cuinn and Dal Fiatach were related. I am unable to link Mac Neill's statements with the text as translated. However if they were a second wave of Milesian conquerors wouldn't that imply as O'Rahilly stated that they were late arrivals in Ireland? And that the invasion leader was not Conn of the Hundred Battles but some earlier ancestor? I was also struck by the fact that they Dal Cuinn mainly mention wars with the Cruithin of the north, the Dal nAraidhi. Could that mean they settled in the north? Jerry might have an opinion on some of the translation. Here's the Laud 610 text. Co fessaid bunad Dáil Chuind & a n-imthechta. Trí maic Búain maic Loegairi Birnd ótá Ossirge, .i. Ailill, Óengus, Fíacc, ciatarochlannsat cletha hi Temuir. Is hí amser indatánic in Míl Espáne tánaise ind-hÉirind, trí cóicit fer a llín. Gabais Trácht Delossath & doforbertatar hi tír & adrartatar inreth már & gabsit tír and ar chlaideb. Is amlaid rogabsat flaith ar chiumd & bid samlaid dogrés, tria hécin gabait flaith. Is hí a chland Dal Cuind & Dál Fíachach. Asberat alaili bed di lucht na luinge forácabsat hi tír Amazonum .i. lasna cíchloiscthi in tEugan Táidlech. In Míl Espáne dedenach immurgu, ba dóich lind bid din lucht forácaibset som hi cathir Breogaint. Ocus is íarum dollotar dochum hÉirenn co nhúraib cathrach Themis leó. Itt é side húra doléicthe hi Temair íar tóchil hÉirenn, conid Temair a hainm ind aird sin .i. theme .i. úr dind húir a Themis alacheill in sin. Is hé in bith deédenach diand ebrath bith síl Chuind & Muman ind fhlaith co bráth. Cruithnig conasensat in flaith friu. Is de dogéni Fínán mac Fíachrach di Dál Aride: Manud báig ar Thipraite báithum arber do suidiu, {folio 97b2} secht cathae at chetharchait ar secht cétaib is huilliu. Conarnic cenél Cuinn, mebdatar an-nói díib, ar ba la Cruithniu ind fhlaith, conidtánic ind longes dedenach forsin lith tuaiscertaig sin. Adroat doib dano cach la flaith conidtánic Conn Cétchathach. Translation. 35. So that ye may know the origin of Dál C. and their exploits. 36. Three sons of Búan mac Lóegaire Birn, from whom are [descended] the Osraige; i.e. Ailill, Óengus [and] Fíacc, who first planted house-posts in Tara. 37. It is the time in which the second Míl Espáine in Ireland came to them. Three fifties of men their number. 38. He reached Delossath Beach and advanced inland and wreaked great devastation and captured land there by the sword. Alternate -- He seized the shore by fury etc. 39. Thus they took lordship from then on, and thus it will be always, (that it is) by force they take lordship. 40. His progeny is this: Dál Cuind and Dál Fíachach. Some say that the Shining Éogan is [one] of the mariners that they left in the land of the Amazons, i.e. among the breast-cauterised ones. 41. The last Míl Espâne, however, it seems to us that he was of the people whom they left in (the) city of Breogan. 42. And it is after that [i.e. after they left the land of the Amazones: §40] that they came to Ireland, with the clays of the city of Themis in their possession. 43. It is those clays which were thrown down in Tara after reaching Ireland, so that Tara is the name of that high place, i.e. theme [? = Latin thema 'that which is set down'?]. 44. It is [now] the final era, of which it was said: the sovereignty will be Síl Cuinn's and Mumu's forever. 45. Cruithni contested the sovereignty with them. It is for that reason Fînán mac Fîachrach composed [the following] concerning the Dál nAraidi: 46. Provided he didn't fight for Tipraite I raised an army for the latter. Seven battles and forty and seven hundred more. 47. Cenél Cuinn gave battle, they broke upon them in a ship. For sovereignty had belonged to the Cruithni, and the final invasion fell to it [i.e. to Cenél Cuinn] on that northern shore (northern side?). 48. However, sovereignty was conceded to them alternately until it came to him, namely Conn Cétchathach. 49. Indeed Conn Cétchathach fought a hundred battles and a hundred conflicts concerning that sovereignty against the Dál nAraidi.

GREETINGS AND THANK YOU JOHN: INTERESTING INFORMATION THAT MAY SPEAK TO THE IDEA HAD OF A VERY EARLY "M-222+" SPREAD INTO SCOTLAND FROM IRELAND, AS WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING BASED UPON OTHER INFORMATION AND ANALYSIS! HAS THE ISSUE OF WHETHER SOME OF THE "CRUITHNE" IN IRELAND & SCOTLAND COULD HAVE BEEN M-222+ BEEN DISCUSSED? THANKS AGAIN, DON MILLIGAN -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 9:10 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Laud 610 Laud 610, one of the oldest if not the oldest collection of genealogies and tribal histories, has a section on the origin of the Dal Cuinn. I just found a translation for it done by some one the Old Irish list. John Mac Neill in his notes to Laud 610 states that: "the origin story of Dal Cuinn, p. 313, indicating an early form of the legend of Mail, ancestor here not of all the Gaedhil but only of the race of Conn, who conquered the Picts, with whom his ancestors had shared the sovereignty;" I suspect not all it is correctly translated but it seems close. There are couple of odd statements. In one, the unnamed ancestor of the Dal Cuinn is called the "second" Mil Espaine. In another section it seems to say the Dal Cuinn and Dal Fiatach were related. I am unable to link Mac Neill's statements with the text as translated. However if they were a second wave of Milesian conquerors wouldn't that imply as O'Rahilly stated that they were late arrivals in Ireland? And that the invasion leader was not Conn of the Hundred Battles but some earlier ancestor? I was also struck by the fact that they Dal Cuinn mainly mention wars with the Cruithin of the north, the Dal nAraidhi. Could that mean they settled in the north? Jerry might have an opinion on some of the translation. Here's the Laud 610 text. Co fessaid bunad Dáil Chuind & a n-imthechta. Trí maic Búain maic Loegairi Birnd ótá Ossirge, .i. Ailill, Óengus, Fíacc, ciatarochlannsat cletha hi Temuir. Is hí amser indatánic in Míl Espáne tánaise ind-hÉirind, trí cóicit fer a llín. Gabais Trácht Delossath & doforbertatar hi tír & adrartatar inreth már & gabsit tír and ar chlaideb. Is amlaid rogabsat flaith ar chiumd & bid samlaid dogrés, tria hécin gabait flaith. Is hí a chland Dal Cuind & Dál Fíachach. Asberat alaili bed di lucht na luinge forácabsat hi tír Amazonum .i. lasna cíchloiscthi in tEugan Táidlech. In Míl Espáne dedenach immurgu, ba dóich lind bid din lucht forácaibset som hi cathir Breogaint. Ocus is íarum dollotar dochum hÉirenn co nhúraib cathrach Themis leó. Itt é side húra doléicthe hi Temair íar tóchil hÉirenn, conid Temair a hainm ind aird sin .i. theme .i. úr dind húir a Themis alacheill in sin. Is hé in bith deédenach diand ebrath bith síl Chuind & Muman ind fhlaith co bráth. Cruithnig conasensat in flaith friu. Is de dogéni Fínán mac Fíachrach di Dál Aride: Manud báig ar Thipraite báithum arber do suidiu, {folio 97b2} secht cathae at chetharchait ar secht cétaib is huilliu. Conarnic cenél Cuinn, mebdatar an-nói díib, ar ba la Cruithniu ind fhlaith, conidtánic ind longes dedenach forsin lith tuaiscertaig sin. Adroat doib dano cach la flaith conidtánic Conn Cétchathach. Translation. 35. So that ye may know the origin of Dál C. and their exploits. 36. Three sons of Búan mac Lóegaire Birn, from whom are [descended] the Osraige; i.e. Ailill, Óengus [and] Fíacc, who first planted house-posts in Tara. 37. It is the time in which the second Míl Espáine in Ireland came to them. Three fifties of men their number. 38. He reached Delossath Beach and advanced inland and wreaked great devastation and captured land there by the sword. Alternate -- He seized the shore by fury etc. 39. Thus they took lordship from then on, and thus it will be always, (that it is) by force they take lordship. 40. His progeny is this: Dál Cuind and Dál Fíachach. Some say that the Shining Éogan is [one] of the mariners that they left in the land of the Amazons, i.e. among the breast-cauterised ones. 41. The last Míl Espâne, however, it seems to us that he was of the people whom they left in (the) city of Breogan. 42. And it is after that [i.e. after they left the land of the Amazones: §40] that they came to Ireland, with the clays of the city of Themis in their possession. 43. It is those clays which were thrown down in Tara after reaching Ireland, so that Tara is the name of that high place, i.e. theme [? = Latin thema 'that which is set down'?]. 44. It is [now] the final era, of which it was said: the sovereignty will be Síl Cuinn's and Mumu's forever. 45. Cruithni contested the sovereignty with them. It is for that reason Fînán mac Fîachrach composed [the following] concerning the Dál nAraidi: 46. Provided he didn't fight for Tipraite I raised an army for the latter. Seven battles and forty and seven hundred more. 47. Cenél Cuinn gave battle, they broke upon them in a ship. For sovereignty had belonged to the Cruithni, and the final invasion fell to it [i.e. to Cenél Cuinn] on that northern shore (northern side?). 48. However, sovereignty was conceded to them alternately until it came to him, namely Conn Cétchathach. 49. Indeed Conn Cétchathach fought a hundred battles and a hundred conflicts concerning that sovereignty against the Dál nAraidi. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ré: Tábhacht na Gaeilge i dTaighde Ginealais Re: Importance of the Irish Language in Genealogical Research A chairde, Scríobh mé alt gearr le déanaí ar an ábhar seo. Is féidir é a fháil ag: / I wrote a short article on this subject lately. You can find it at: http://www.irishtribes.com/article-importance-of-irish-language.html Relatedly, The Philo-Celtic Society’s new semester of free, online Irish Language courses is beginning now at <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/ . To join, go there and click on ‘’Join This Group’’. You’ll then automatically get a full course listing by email with links to the free courses. Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that’s helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Gearóid / Jerry

In a message dated 9/4/2011 4:46:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bcaulfield@gmail.com writes: In other words, the 17 marker signature and M222 seem to overlap, but the 17 marker signature the paper examined seems to be a subset of M222. Am I wrong? That's correct. Trinity tested for about 12 of the same basic markers used by FTDNA. Plus they added some markers at the time not tested for by FTDNA. But I think most if not all of these extra markers are now tested by FTDNA in their 67 marker set. So the Trinity markers are a sub-se of the M222 markers. Basically they identified what they called the IMH (Irish modal haplotype) using what amounts to the first 12 markers in the FTDNA set. The spreadsheet they used is still online if anyone would like to see what they did themselves. _http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php_ (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php) There are several supplementary files listed. The main file is: _Supplementary Information.xls_ (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/link%20files/McEvoy%20et%20al%202006%20Hum%20Gen%20Sup_Info.xls) They also did a smaller sampling of UI Neill surnames. It appears below this one. The first file listed contains Eoghanachta and Dal Cais surnames from a different paper. John

The M222+ population in Ireland includes the northern Ui Neill, the Connachta (i.e. Ui Briuin) and certainly branches of the southern Ui Neill.

In other words, the 17 marker signature and M222 seem to overlap, but the 17 marker signature the paper examined seems to be a subset of M222. Am I wrong? _______________________________ Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Brian Caulfield <bcaulfield@gmail.com>wrote: > A point of clarification: the 1995 paper by Daniel Bradley's group at the > Smurfit Institute of Genetics "A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in > Gaelic Ireland <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380239/>" seeks > only to explain why M222 seems so common among families with origins in > certain parts of the Ireland. Bradley and his group weren't trying to find > the origins of M222, and the paper didn't assert that the genetic signature > it examined is exclusive to Ireland or the Irish. I think we're complicating > things more than necessary if we criticize Bradley, and those who follow his > work, for things they do not assert. > _______________________________ > > Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? > A: http://five.sentenc.es > > > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Susan Hedeen < > chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the >> origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the >> Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th >> century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in >> answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for >> it to have developed in Ireland? >> >> Personally, I don't care where it formed up. If indeed it is Ireland, >> wonderful since that has been declared my genetic Celtic make up -- at >> least at the moment since M222 is presently defined there and my >> immigrant ancestors lived and farmed there previous to hopping the >> pond. Am I going to be upset if it formed up in Scotland, Brittany, >> near the Alps, in Iberia, Turkey, or Cashel, or any of the other places >> where Celtic society migrated in and out of? Absolutely not. >> >> The current popular theory seems to be short, yet is highly popular >> and considered as fact when indeed it is yet simply a theory based on >> statistical data which was quantified too soon in the game. I think >> that is all John and Bill and several others are saying, and I >> personally thought that previous to joining this group, and I will >> continue to believe it until the theory is really tested right along >> with others with a larger and more diverse testing pool. >> >> Susan >> >> On 8/19/2011 4:51 PM, Bernard Morgan wrote: >> > > >> > > I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect >> completely. >> > > Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. >> That >> > > is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, >> either; >> > > so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill >> > > informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. >> > > >> > >> > Surely migration is an aspect, however I think reference to the Nial >> > Saga (name of an actual Norse saga) ignores the written tradition of >> > Ireland that began in the 5th century. In Ireland we are dealing with >> > the third oldest written history in Europe. Hence the movement of the >> > people of claim descent from Neill is well document and publish in >> > numerous academic works, such as Prof. Brynes "Irish Kings and High >> > kings". Writers like Beresford point out the vast majority of Irish >> > manuscripts remain un-translated and it seem un-transcribed. >> > >> > >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

A point of clarification: the 1995 paper by Daniel Bradley's group at the Smurfit Institute of Genetics "A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380239/>" seeks only to explain why M222 seems so common among families with origins in certain parts of the Ireland. Bradley and his group weren't trying to find the origins of M222, and the paper didn't assert that the genetic signature it examined is exclusive to Ireland or the Irish. I think we're complicating things more than necessary if we criticize Bradley, and those who follow his work, for things they do not assert. _______________________________ Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the > origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the > Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th > century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in > answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for > it to have developed in Ireland? > > Personally, I don't care where it formed up. If indeed it is Ireland, > wonderful since that has been declared my genetic Celtic make up -- at > least at the moment since M222 is presently defined there and my > immigrant ancestors lived and farmed there previous to hopping the > pond. Am I going to be upset if it formed up in Scotland, Brittany, > near the Alps, in Iberia, Turkey, or Cashel, or any of the other places > where Celtic society migrated in and out of? Absolutely not. > > The current popular theory seems to be short, yet is highly popular > and considered as fact when indeed it is yet simply a theory based on > statistical data which was quantified too soon in the game. I think > that is all John and Bill and several others are saying, and I > personally thought that previous to joining this group, and I will > continue to believe it until the theory is really tested right along > with others with a larger and more diverse testing pool. > > Susan > > On 8/19/2011 4:51 PM, Bernard Morgan wrote: > > > > > > I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. > > > Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That > > > is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; > > > so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill > > > informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. > > > > > > > Surely migration is an aspect, however I think reference to the Nial > > Saga (name of an actual Norse saga) ignores the written tradition of > > Ireland that began in the 5th century. In Ireland we are dealing with > > the third oldest written history in Europe. Hence the movement of the > > people of claim descent from Neill is well document and publish in > > numerous academic works, such as Prof. Brynes "Irish Kings and High > > kings". Writers like Beresford point out the vast majority of Irish > > manuscripts remain un-translated and it seem un-transcribed. > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The full 11 marker results are showing for Conroy on the FTDNA site. _http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx_ (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx) But I haven't done a new version yet on my own M222 site. I'll try and capture a new version soon . John

When discussing off models there was mention that several in this group share a mutation value of 15 @ dys 392. I was wondering if those of you who show cys 392 = 15 if you'd share your signature with me. Another question, of those of you who have 15 @ dys 392, how many share the 28 value at 389-2? Most I've seen in Y search where 392 = 15 have 389-2 = 29. If you'd like to contact me directly rather that take up list talk, that is fine chantillycarpets@earthlink.net or frmid2va@yahoo.com Thanks, Susan

Hello, you mentioned that you share 392 = 15. Would you mind sharing your signature with me? Is you 389-2 29 or 28? Thanks, Susan

dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > > Today's Topics: > 1. off model request summary (Susan Hedeen) > 2. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286 (Robert Reid) When discussing off models there was mention that several in this group share a mutation value of 15 @ dys 392. I was wondering if those of you who show cys 392 = 15 if you'd share your signature with me. Another question, of those of you who have 15 @ dys 392, how many share the 28 value at 389-2? Most I've seen in Y search where 392 = 15 have 389-2 = 29. If you'd like to contact me directly rather that take up list talk, that is fine chantillycarpets@earthlink.net or frmid2va@yahoo.com Thanks, Susan > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:24:12 -0400 > From: "Robert Reid"<rreid002@insight.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286 > To:<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<000801cc65d1$3693d510$a3bb7f30$@insight.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > St Columba& translators > > > From Adomnan of Iona, Life of St Columba: > > Book I, 33, pp. 136-7: When St Columba was staying for a few days on the > island of Skye ? a little boat came in to land on the shore, bringing in its > prow a man worn out with age. He was the chief commander of the warband in > the region of C?. Two men carried him from the boat and set him down in > front of the blessed man. As soon as he had received the word of God from > St Columba, through an interpreter, he believed and was baptized by him. > Drumville takes Geonus as an adjective derived from the place name C?, the > name of a Pictish provence thought to extend over what is now Banffshire and > Aberdeenshire (Watson, Celtic Place-names, pp.108-9, 114, 515; Wainright, > ?The Picts and the problem?, pp. 46-7). The stream in which he received > baptism is even today called by the local people ?water of Artbranan?. > > Book II, 32, pp. 179-80: During the time when St Columba spent a number of > days in the province of the Picts, he was preaching the word of life through > an interpreter. A Pictish layman heard him and his entire household believed > and was baptized, husband, wife, children and servants. A few days later one > of his sons was seized with a severe pain, which brought him to the boundary > of life and death. When the heathen wizards saw that the boy was dying, they > began to make a mock of the parents and to reproach them harshly, making > such of their own gods as the stronger and belittling the God of the > Christians as the feebler. > All this was made known to St Columba and it stirred him vigorously to take > God?s part. He set off with his companions to visit the layman?s house, and > there he found that the child had recently died and his parents were > performing the rituals of mourning. Seeing their great distress, St Columba > comforted them and assured them that they should not in any way doubt that > God is almighty. Then he proceeded to question them, saying: > ?In which of these buildings does the body of the dead boy lie?? > The bereaved father led St Columba to that sad lodging, which the saint > entered alone, leaving the crowd of people outside. Having gone inside, St > Columba immediately knelt and, with tears streaming down his face, prayed to > Christ the Lord. After these prayers on bended knee, he stood up and turned > his gaze to the dead boy, saying: > ?In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, wake up again and stand upon thy > feet.? > At the saint?s glorious word the sould returned to the body, and the boy > that was dead opened his eyes and lived again. > Dr. Isabel Henderson, The Picts, pp. 74-75, suggests ? that the saint?s > travels among the Picts, .. centered around St Columba?s visit to King > Bridei near the River Ness, may have been drawn from a narrative of that > visit. It certainly seems possible, even likely, that II 27, 32-35 derive > from some such account..? > St Columba does not require a translator?s help howeve, during the > course of his visit(s) to King Bridei?s fort and his dialogue with various > people there, so plainly there were at least 2 languages used in Pictland > (wizard Broichan, King Bridei and his council). As a contemporary, and one > of the chief kings in Scotland, Bridei appears in Adomn?n's Life of Saint > Columba. Adomn?n's account of Bridei is problematic in that it fails to > tells us whether Bridei was already a Christian, and if not, whether Columba > converted him. > > The chief place of Bridei's kingdom, which may have corresponded with later > Fortriu, is not known. Adomn?n tells that after leaving the royal court, by > implication soon afterwards, Columba came to the River Ness, and that the > court was atop a steep rock. Accordingly, it is generally supposed that > Bridei's chief residence was at Craig Phadrig, to the west of modern > Inverness overlooking the Beauly Firth. Both the Vita Columbae and the > Venerable Bede (672/673-735) record Columba's visit to Bridei. Whereas > Adomn?n just tells us that Columba visited Bridei, Bede relates a later, > perhaps Pictish tradition, whereby the saint actually converts the Pictish > king. Another early source is a poem in praise of Columba, most probably > commissioned by Columba's kinsman, the King of the U? N?ill clan. It was > almost certainly written within three or four years of Columba's death and > is the earliest vernacular poem in European history. It consists of 25 > stanzas of four verses of seven syllables each. > That St Columba does not require a translator?s help during the course of > his visit(s) to King Bridei?s fort (Craig Phadng) and his dialogue with > various people there, plainly infers that the elite of Bridei?s kingdom > spoke a form of Q-Celtic similar to Old Irish. Or maybe Q-Celtic was > fashionable at the time much like French was at European Courts in the 18th > century and the elite were bilingual. However, the translators needed at > the baptism of Artbranan and the raising of the dead boy near Fidach > (Inverness/Nainshire) could be a forms of an extinct P-Celtic (Pictish) > language. Pictish is a term used for the extinct language or languages > thought to have been spoken by the Picts, the people of northern and central > Scotland in the Early Middle Ages. The idea that a distinct Pictish language > was perceived at some point is attested clearly in Bede's early 8th-century > Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum, which names Pictish as a language > distinct from both Welsh and Gaelic. However, why would the elite of King > Bridei?s kingdom speak a language (form of Q-Celtic) distinct from the > probable P-Celtic scenarios mentioned above? > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 3:00 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 (Robert Reid) > 2. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 (Lochlan@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:07:02 -0400 > From: "Robert Reid"<rreid002@insight.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 > To:<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<000001cc651e$cb71d140$625573c0$@insight.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" > > > Again, Clan MacTavish Seannachie website: > > Tavis, Tavis or Taus is considered, and accepted in multiple sources, as the > progenitor, epytom and founder of Clan MacTavish. However, this is > incorrect. The MacTavish consider themselves much older than the traditional > stories of Argyllshire, promulgated by the old seannachies, and newer > writers still insist upon the old stories, when none have looked beyond > those traditional stories for any possible alternate origin. Such a > beginning is found in the old Irish annals and the old writ, Ceart Ui Neill, > out of Donegal, Ireland. The MacTavishes come from the Cenel nDuach a branch > of the Cenel Conaill, descended from the Pictish Kings of Ros Guill and > Irguill, now part of Donegal, and also from Dal-araidhe, now part of Antrim > and Down. The Greek (Roman)historian, mapmaker and mathmetician, Ptolemy, > mentions the tribe under the name of Ouenniknoi (Windukatii), and the > lineage is tracable in such texts as the Irish Annuls of Ulster and Four > Masters. > > > A Traditional Royal Genealogic Table > > of the Cen?l nDuach (or Windukatii Picts) > > (Given in the various Irish annals and Ceart Ui Neill) > > 1. Conall Gulban ? King of Tir Connell, of whom the Cen?l Conaill > > (Supposed Son of King Niall No?giallach) > > 2. Du?, alias Fergus Cennfoda - married Erca Loarn, Dau. of Loarn Mor, > > she was Princess of Dalriada. > > He founded the branch Cen?l nDuach of Cenel Conaill, > > a Prince of the Cen?l Conaill, > > King of Goll and Irgoll, > > and Prince of Dal-araidhe. > > 3. Ninnid(h), King of Goll and IrGoll. His offspring are called ?Siol > Ninnidh?. > > (flourished 561-563) > > 4. B?et?n (Baedan), King of Teimar [sic Tara], High King of Ireland > > (d. 584-586)| > > 5. Conall, Prince of the Cenel nDuach& Tory Island, of Siol Ninnidh > > 6. Sechnusach, Prince of the Cenel nDuach of Siol Ninnidh > 7. Du? (2nd ?), Prince of the Cenel nDuach of Siol Ninnidh > > (has but brief mention) > 8. Corcc, or Uricc (alias Orc Doith) of Cenel nDuach& of Siol Ninnidh > > King of Gull and Irogull, flourished 658 > > ( Orc, the Boar, and > > Doith is a latter interpretation of Dui, or Duach. > > Orc Doith literally means: The Boar of Duach) > > 9. Duinechaid, Prince of the Cenel nDuach& Siol Ninnidh, killed 691 > 10. Nuada (alias Anmchadh), King of Guill and Irguill (d. 718-722) > > Last of the Royal Succession > The descendants are: The MacGilletsamhais (Siol Ninnidh) over Gull and > Irgull > > > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy > here we go again! (Sandy Paterson) > 2. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy > here we go again! (Bill Howard) > > > Yes, it has been discussed many times. > > One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether > M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families > are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland > and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, > separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, > aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have > Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, > and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as > they were one breeding population for millennia. > > Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or > Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some > Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in is > the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first person > about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill families were > extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants were Medieval > rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and > very >> early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided >> distribution of >> M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need >> M222+to be >> able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: >> 1. Conroy (myself) >> 2. Galyean >> 3. Gillespie >> 4. McCord >> 5. Cruden >> >> Check out this chart: >> http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg >> >> And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, >> North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, >> South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, >> Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included >> in this project. >> As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman >> French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one wave >> from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source somewhere >> between coastal >> between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and >> South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, and >> to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman >> French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen< >> >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:00:24 -0400 >> From: Bill Howard<weh8@verizon.net> >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland >> - oh boy here we go again! >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID:<D358BD1E-E6FA-496B-B2CA-C72BA359D745@verizon.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> Just a short note about the determination of the time of origin of groups of >> haplotypes, be they a SNP group or a surname group. >> >> ? The RCC correlation technique now has a time scale determined from >> pedigrees. >> ? t appears to be linear over tens of thousands of years. >> This means that the mutation rate has not changed >> significantly over that time period. >> ? Haplotype analysis of only one set of markers is meaningless; it >> must be compared with others. >> ? By the nature of this comparison, we can only determine the TMRCA of >> the oldest pair. >> But we want the time of origin of the progenitor, not of a >> pair of people. >> ? If you form a phylogenetic tree, it contains ALL the testees that >> are in the group you select. >> ? You can plot the run of descendant lines as a function of time. It >> will be an exponential plot due to the growing number in the >> population whose markers have separately mutated. >> ? A plot of the Log of the number (Log N) against the date will be >> very nearly a straight line. >> ? You merely have to extrapolate that straight line to the point where >> Log N=0. That's when the progenitor lived. >> >> The main point here is that the straight line results by using every testee >> on the plot, not just the ones who are more distant, AND this leads to only >> a very short extrapolation on the plot, so it can be trusted. The R^2 value >> of the plot is of the order of 0.98, yielding a very nice relation that you >> can work with and trust. >> >> The downside? Easy -- you need a very large number of testees in the group >> to assure that you are not just determining the TMRCA of the group you >> chose. How do you know when you have included enough testees? Well, as the >> number of testees you analyze gets larger and larger, the inclusion of more >> results tends to push the TMRCA further back in time, even with the >> extrapolation. If you run the tree process on larger and larger numbers, >> you will see the effect. But if you have two large groups, one of which >> contains, say 340 testees and the other contains 680 testees, and IF the >> derived date of the former is LONGER AGO than the one derived from the >> latter, then you know you have had enough in the sample because the "law of >> diminishing returns" has set in. >> >> That happened when John McLaughlin and derived Figure 3 in our paper on >> M222. We mentioned that effect there. It can be found at: >> http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Paper >> .pdf >> and it has been submitted to the journal Familia, connected to the >> Ulster Historical Foundation where the readership in Ulster and Scotland who >> carry M222 tends to peak up! >> >> I truly think that this is now the best way to determine the TMRCA of groups >> of haplotypes. The more the group shares the identified characteristic of a >> group, the more meaningful the determination will be. You should not apply >> the process to a random group of testees because the result will not be >> meaningful. >> ----------- >> By the way, prior to publishing my Paper 1 introducing the RCC approach, >> Whit Athey and I had considerable discussions about how to determine the >> TMRCA of a surname cluster whose membership was known to be incomplete. This >> is EXACTLY the case here. In my Paper 1, it was determined that to determine >> the time of origin, you had to find the TMRCA of KNOWN members of the >> cluster by a factor of about 52.7/43.3 = 1.22 in order to estimate the TMRCA >> of a cluster if all the members were present. When there are more testees >> in the sample, that factor will be lower, as we see in the case of the M222 >> extrapolation (below).My Paper 1 is at: >> http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Howard1.p >> df >> >> Now, go to Figure 3 of the M222 paper. There you will see the last measured >> point was at a date of about 1300 BC. The same sort of extrapolation applied >> here would take you to the TMRCA of the M222 SNP, about 1680 years ago (SD~ >> 300 years). If I had done this process on a number of surname clusters using >> a phylogenetic tree approach, it would have given about the same result but >> would have been more trustworthy. But I had not known of the tree approach >> at the time I wrote that paper introducing the RCC correlation technique. >> This is just a more clever way to determine the SNP => using the number of >> descendant lines on the phylogenetic tree. Every testee contributes to the >> resulting straight line on the tree! >> ---------- >> - Bye from Bill Howard >> >> >> >> >>> boy here we go again! >>> >>> Susan, >>> >>> Yes, it has been discussed many times. >>> >>> One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether >>> M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families >>> are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland >>> and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, >>> separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, >>> aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have >>> Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, >>> and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as >>> they were one breeding population for millennia. >>> >>> Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or >>> Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some >>> Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in >>> is the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first >>> person about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill >>> families were extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants >>> were Medieval rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and >> very >>> early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided >>> distribution of >>> M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need >>> M222+to be >>> able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: >>> 1. Conroy (myself) >>> 2. Galyean >>> 3. Gillespie >>> 4. McCord >>> 5. Cruden >>> >>> Check out this chart: >>> http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg >>> >>> And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, >>> North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, >>> South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, >>> Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included >>> in > this project. >>> As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman >>> French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one >>> wave from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source >>> somewhere between >> coastal >>> between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and >>> South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, >>> and to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman >>> French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Paul >>> >>>

John, Do you know how soon they will get updated on the project page? PANEL 5 (68 - 75) Locus 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 DYS# 710 485 632 495 540 714 716 717 Alleles 36 15 9 16 11 24 26 19 PANEL 5 (76 - 85) Locus 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 DYS# 505 556 549 589 522 494 533 636 575 638 Alleles 13 11 12 12 11 9 13 12 10 11 PANEL 5 (86 - 93) Locus 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 DYS# 462 452 445 GATA A10 463 441 GGAAT 1B07 525 Alleles 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 PANEL 5 (94 - 102) Locus 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 DYS# 712 593 650 532 715 504 513 561 552 Alleles 24 15 19 13 24 17 13 15 24 PANEL 5 (103 - 111) Locus 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 DYS# 726 635 587 643 497 510 434 461 435 Alleles 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11 Cheers, Paul

St Columba & translators >From Adomnan of Iona, Life of St Columba: Book I, 33, pp. 136-7: When St Columba was staying for a few days on the island of Skye … a little boat came in to land on the shore, bringing in its prow a man worn out with age. He was the chief commander of the warband in the region of Cé. Two men carried him from the boat and set him down in front of the blessed man. As soon as he had received the word of God from St Columba, through an interpreter, he believed and was baptized by him. Drumville takes Geonus as an adjective derived from the place name Cé, the name of a Pictish provence thought to extend over what is now Banffshire and Aberdeenshire (Watson, Celtic Place-names, pp.108-9, 114, 515; Wainright, ‘The Picts and the problem’, pp. 46-7). The stream in which he received baptism is even today called by the local people ‘water of Artbranan’. Book II, 32, pp. 179-80: During the time when St Columba spent a number of days in the province of the Picts, he was preaching the word of life through an interpreter. A Pictish layman heard him and his entire household believed and was baptized, husband, wife, children and servants. A few days later one of his sons was seized with a severe pain, which brought him to the boundary of life and death. When the heathen wizards saw that the boy was dying, they began to make a mock of the parents and to reproach them harshly, making such of their own gods as the stronger and belittling the God of the Christians as the feebler. All this was made known to St Columba and it stirred him vigorously to take God’s part. He set off with his companions to visit the layman’s house, and there he found that the child had recently died and his parents were performing the rituals of mourning. Seeing their great distress, St Columba comforted them and assured them that they should not in any way doubt that God is almighty. Then he proceeded to question them, saying: ‘In which of these buildings does the body of the dead boy lie?’ The bereaved father led St Columba to that sad lodging, which the saint entered alone, leaving the crowd of people outside. Having gone inside, St Columba immediately knelt and, with tears streaming down his face, prayed to Christ the Lord. After these prayers on bended knee, he stood up and turned his gaze to the dead boy, saying: “In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, wake up again and stand upon thy feet.’ At the saint’s glorious word the sould returned to the body, and the boy that was dead opened his eyes and lived again. Dr. Isabel Henderson, The Picts, pp. 74-75, suggests … that the saint’s travels among the Picts, .. centered around St Columba’s visit to King Bridei near the River Ness, may have been drawn from a narrative of that visit. It certainly seems possible, even likely, that II 27, 32-35 derive from some such account..” St Columba does not require a translator’s help howeve, during the course of his visit(s) to King Bridei’s fort and his dialogue with various people there, so plainly there were at least 2 languages used in Pictland (wizard Broichan, King Bridei and his council). As a contemporary, and one of the chief kings in Scotland, Bridei appears in Adomnán's Life of Saint Columba. Adomnán's account of Bridei is problematic in that it fails to tells us whether Bridei was already a Christian, and if not, whether Columba converted him. The chief place of Bridei's kingdom, which may have corresponded with later Fortriu, is not known. Adomnán tells that after leaving the royal court, by implication soon afterwards, Columba came to the River Ness, and that the court was atop a steep rock. Accordingly, it is generally supposed that Bridei's chief residence was at Craig Phadrig, to the west of modern Inverness overlooking the Beauly Firth. Both the Vita Columbae and the Venerable Bede (672/673-735) record Columba's visit to Bridei. Whereas Adomnán just tells us that Columba visited Bridei, Bede relates a later, perhaps Pictish tradition, whereby the saint actually converts the Pictish king. Another early source is a poem in praise of Columba, most probably commissioned by Columba's kinsman, the King of the Uí Néill clan. It was almost certainly written within three or four years of Columba's death and is the earliest vernacular poem in European history. It consists of 25 stanzas of four verses of seven syllables each. That St Columba does not require a translator’s help during the course of his visit(s) to King Bridei’s fort (Craig Phadng) and his dialogue with various people there, plainly infers that the elite of Bridei’s kingdom spoke a form of Q-Celtic similar to Old Irish. Or maybe Q-Celtic was fashionable at the time much like French was at European Courts in the 18th century and the elite were bilingual. However, the translators needed at the baptism of Artbranan and the raising of the dead boy near Fidach (Inverness/Nainshire) could be a forms of an extinct P-Celtic (Pictish) language. Pictish is a term used for the extinct language or languages thought to have been spoken by the Picts, the people of northern and central Scotland in the Early Middle Ages. The idea that a distinct Pictish language was perceived at some point is attested clearly in Bede's early 8th-century Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum, which names Pictish as a language distinct from both Welsh and Gaelic. However, why would the elite of King Bridei’s kingdom speak a language (form of Q-Celtic) distinct from the probable P-Celtic scenarios mentioned above? -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 3:00 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286 Today's Topics: 1. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 (Robert Reid) 2. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 (Lochlan@aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:07:02 -0400 From: "Robert Reid" <rreid002@insight.rr.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000001cc651e$cb71d140$625573c0$@insight.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Again, Clan MacTavish Seannachie website: Tavis, Tavis or Taus is considered, and accepted in multiple sources, as the progenitor, epytom and founder of Clan MacTavish. However, this is incorrect. The MacTavish consider themselves much older than the traditional stories of Argyllshire, promulgated by the old seannachies, and newer writers still insist upon the old stories, when none have looked beyond those traditional stories for any possible alternate origin. Such a beginning is found in the old Irish annals and the old writ, Ceart Ui Neill, out of Donegal, Ireland. The MacTavishes come from the Cenel nDuach a branch of the Cenel Conaill, descended from the Pictish Kings of Ros Guill and Irguill, now part of Donegal, and also from Dal-araidhe, now part of Antrim and Down. The Greek (Roman)historian, mapmaker and mathmetician, Ptolemy, mentions the tribe under the name of Ouenniknoi (Windukatii), and the lineage is tracable in such texts as the Irish Annuls of Ulster and Four Masters. A Traditional Royal Genealogic Table of the Cen?l nDuach (or Windukatii Picts) (Given in the various Irish annals and Ceart Ui Neill) 1. Conall Gulban ? King of Tir Connell, of whom the Cen?l Conaill (Supposed Son of King Niall No?giallach) ? 2. Du?, alias Fergus Cennfoda - married Erca Loarn, Dau. of Loarn Mor, she was Princess of Dalriada. He founded the branch Cen?l nDuach of Cenel Conaill, a Prince of the Cen?l Conaill, King of Goll and Irgoll, and Prince of Dal-araidhe. ? 3. Ninnid(h), King of Goll and IrGoll. His offspring are called ?Siol Ninnidh?. (flourished 561-563) ? 4. B?et?n (Baedan), King of Teimar [sic Tara], High King of Ireland (d. 584-586)| ? 5. Conall, Prince of the Cenel nDuach & Tory Island, of Siol Ninnidh ? 6. Sechnusach, Prince of the Cenel nDuach of Siol Ninnidh ? 7. Du? (2nd ?), Prince of the Cenel nDuach of Siol Ninnidh (has but brief mention) ? 8. Corcc, or Uricc (alias Orc Doith) of Cenel nDuach & of Siol Ninnidh King of Gull and Irogull, flourished 658 ( Orc, the Boar, and Doith is a latter interpretation of Dui, or Duach. Orc Doith literally means: The Boar of Duach) ? 9. Duinechaid, Prince of the Cenel nDuach & Siol Ninnidh, killed 691 ? 10. Nuada (alias Anmchadh), King of Guill and Irguill (d. 718-722) Last of the Royal Succession ? The descendants are: The MacGilletsamhais (Siol Ninnidh) over Gull and Irgull -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 3:00 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 Today's Topics: 1. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! (Sandy Paterson) 2. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! (Bill Howard) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 08:39:51 +0100 From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000301cc63c3$572225d0$05667170$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Right, it's coming back to me. Sometime during the past 6 months there was a shortish discussion in genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com between Dave Johnston and Ken Nordtvedt. DJ wrote that he could show mathematically that the self-variance method of estimating group TMRCA in fact produced an answer that was an unbiased estimate NOT of the group TMRCA, but of the mean of the pair-wise TMRCA's within the group. Since that is necessarily lower than the group TMRCA, it means that the self-variance method it is biased low. He went on to reason that in order to get an unbiased estimate of group TMRCA, variance should be calculated with reference to the putative marker value of the eponymous group "founder" rather than the mean marker value of the group. I don't wish to incorrectly attribute views to DJ or KN, but I got the impression that KN agreed with DJ, but added the caveat that the marker value of the founder is unknown. Yes, we can calculate modals, but although we can regard the modals as the 'best estimates' of the founder markers, we don't actually know them. That was my interpretation of the discussion. Unfortunately, my computer crashed soon after that, so I'd be hard-pressed to track down the exchange. As I recall, DJ suggested that simply estimating the pairwise TMRCA of the two seemingly most distantly related haplotypes within a group (read Conroy and Doherty in M222), would probably be insightful, but the answer would be biased high. I think the discussion between DJ and KN was probably the most useful exchange I've ever read on the subject on TMRCA estimation, but it seems to have died off without much follow-up. Perhaps they continued the discussion off-list. So. I think the above supports your contention that we should be concentrating on the extremes rather than the group in its entirety. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 25 August 2011 19:33 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! Sandy, I just visually scanned the chart I linked to. What I'd like to see is analysis done of a 67-Marker, M222 SNP Tested sample, that excludes the well known Ui Neill families - that way we could see what relationships can be determined from the outliers, which might provide more clues?! On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Sandy Paterson < alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> wrote: > Hi Paul > > I'm interested to know why you include Gillespie in the group of outliers. > My interest in them is that I share DYS481,487 = 26,14 with them, and > also that Gillespie and Ewing share DYS442 = 11. > > I agree with your general approach though - a better understanding of > the outliers is likely to provide a better understanding of M222. > > Sandy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy > Sent: 25 August 2011 17:11 > To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Cc: lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland > - oh > boy here we go again! > > Susan, > > Yes, it has been discussed many times. > > One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether > M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families > are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland > and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, > separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, > aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have > Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, > and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as > they were one breeding population for millennia. > > Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or > Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some > Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in is > the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first person > about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill families were > extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants were Medieval > rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and very > early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided > distribution of > M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need > M222+to be > able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: > 1. Conroy (myself) > 2. Galyean > 3. Gillespie > 4. McCord > 5. Cruden > > Check out this chart: > http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg > > And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, > North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, > South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, > Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included > in this project. > > As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman > French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one wave > from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source somewhere > between coastal > between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and > South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, and > to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman > French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen < > chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > The debates we've been reviewing regarding M222 have been around for > > awhile. See this discussion. I'm sure you have probably seen it > > before, but almost dejavu (spelling an example of phonetics) > > > > http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8846.10;wap2 > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:00:24 -0400 From: Bill Howard <weh8@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <D358BD1E-E6FA-496B-B2CA-C72BA359D745@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Just a short note about the determination of the time of origin of groups of haplotypes, be they a SNP group or a surname group. ? The RCC correlation technique now has a time scale determined from pedigrees. ? t appears to be linear over tens of thousands of years. This means that the mutation rate has not changed significantly over that time period. ? Haplotype analysis of only one set of markers is meaningless; it must be compared with others. ? By the nature of this comparison, we can only determine the TMRCA of the oldest pair. But we want the time of origin of the progenitor, not of a pair of people. ? If you form a phylogenetic tree, it contains ALL the testees that are in the group you select. ? You can plot the run of descendant lines as a function of time. It will be an exponential plot due to the growing number in the population whose markers have separately mutated. ? A plot of the Log of the number (Log N) against the date will be very nearly a straight line. ? You merely have to extrapolate that straight line to the point where Log N=0. That's when the progenitor lived. The main point here is that the straight line results by using every testee on the plot, not just the ones who are more distant, AND this leads to only a very short extrapolation on the plot, so it can be trusted. The R^2 value of the plot is of the order of 0.98, yielding a very nice relation that you can work with and trust. The downside? Easy -- you need a very large number of testees in the group to assure that you are not just determining the TMRCA of the group you chose. How do you know when you have included enough testees? Well, as the number of testees you analyze gets larger and larger, the inclusion of more results tends to push the TMRCA further back in time, even with the extrapolation. If you run the tree process on larger and larger numbers, you will see the effect. But if you have two large groups, one of which contains, say 340 testees and the other contains 680 testees, and IF the derived date of the former is LONGER AGO than the one derived from the latter, then you know you have had enough in the sample because the "law of diminishing returns" has set in. That happened when John McLaughlin and derived Figure 3 in our paper on M222. We mentioned that effect there. It can be found at: http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Paper .pdf and it has been submitted to the journal Familia, connected to the Ulster Historical Foundation where the readership in Ulster and Scotland who carry M222 tends to peak up! I truly think that this is now the best way to determine the TMRCA of groups of haplotypes. The more the group shares the identified characteristic of a group, the more meaningful the determination will be. You should not apply the process to a random group of testees because the result will not be meaningful. ----------- By the way, prior to publishing my Paper 1 introducing the RCC approach, Whit Athey and I had considerable discussions about how to determine the TMRCA of a surname cluster whose membership was known to be incomplete. This is EXACTLY the case here. In my Paper 1, it was determined that to determine the time of origin, you had to find the TMRCA of KNOWN members of the cluster by a factor of about 52.7/43.3 = 1.22 in order to estimate the TMRCA of a cluster if all the members were present. When there are more testees in the sample, that factor will be lower, as we see in the case of the M222 extrapolation (below).My Paper 1 is at: http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Howard1.p df Now, go to Figure 3 of the M222 paper. There you will see the last measured point was at a date of about 1300 BC. The same sort of extrapolation applied here would take you to the TMRCA of the M222 SNP, about 1680 years ago (SD~ 300 years). If I had done this process on a number of surname clusters using a phylogenetic tree approach, it would have given about the same result but would have been more trustworthy. But I had not known of the tree approach at the time I wrote that paper introducing the RCC correlation technique. This is just a more clever way to determine the SNP => using the number of descendant lines on the phylogenetic tree. Every testee contributes to the resulting straight line on the tree! ---------- - Bye from Bill Howard On Aug 26, 2011, at 3:39 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > Right, it's coming back to me. > > Sometime during the past 6 months there was a shortish discussion in > genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com between Dave Johnston and Ken Nordtvedt. > > DJ wrote that he could show mathematically that the self-variance > method of estimating group TMRCA in fact produced an answer that was > an unbiased estimate NOT of the group TMRCA, but of the mean of the > pair-wise TMRCA's within the group. Since that is necessarily lower > than the group TMRCA, it means that the self-variance method it is > biased low. > > He went on to reason that in order to get an unbiased estimate of > group TMRCA, variance should be calculated with reference to the > putative marker value of the eponymous group "founder" rather than the > mean marker value of the group. > > I don't wish to incorrectly attribute views to DJ or KN, but I got the > impression that KN agreed with DJ, but added the caveat that the > marker value of the founder is unknown. Yes, we can calculate modals, > but although we can regard the modals as the 'best estimates' of the > founder markers, we don't actually know them. That was my > interpretation of the discussion. > > Unfortunately, my computer crashed soon after that, so I'd be > hard-pressed to track down the exchange. > > As I recall, DJ suggested that simply estimating the pairwise TMRCA of > the two seemingly most distantly related haplotypes within a group > (read Conroy and Doherty in M222), would probably be insightful, but > the answer would be biased high. > > I think the discussion between DJ and KN was probably the most useful > exchange I've ever read on the subject on TMRCA estimation, but it > seems to have died off without much follow-up. Perhaps they continued > the discussion off-list. > > So. > > I think the above supports your contention that we should be > concentrating on the extremes rather than the group in its entirety. > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy > Sent: 25 August 2011 19:33 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland > - oh boy here we go again! > > Sandy, > > I just visually scanned the chart I linked to. > > What I'd like to see is analysis done of a 67-Marker, M222 SNP Tested > sample, that excludes the well known Ui Neill families - that way we > could see what relationships can be determined from the outliers, > which might provide more clues?! > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Sandy Paterson < > alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Hi Paul >> >> I'm interested to know why you include Gillespie in the group of outliers. >> My interest in them is that I share DYS481,487 = 26,14 with them, and >> also that Gillespie and Ewing share DYS442 = 11. >> >> I agree with your general approach though - a better understanding of >> the outliers is likely to provide a better understanding of M222. >> >> Sandy >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy >> Sent: 25 August 2011 17:11 >> To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Cc: lochlan@aol.com >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of >> Ireland - > oh >> boy here we go again! >> >> Susan, >> >> Yes, it has been discussed many times. >> >> One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether >> M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families >> are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland >> and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, >> separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, >> aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have >> Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, >> and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as >> they were one breeding population for millennia. >> >> Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or >> Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some >> Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in >> is the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first >> person about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill >> families were extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants >> were Medieval rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and > very >> early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided >> distribution of >> M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need >> M222+to be >> able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: >> 1. Conroy (myself) >> 2. Galyean >> 3. Gillespie >> 4. McCord >> 5. Cruden >> >> Check out this chart: >> http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg >> >> And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, >> North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, >> South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, >> Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included >> in this project. >> >> As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman >> French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one >> wave from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source >> somewhere between > coastal >> between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and >> South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, >> and to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman >> French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen < >> chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> The debates we've been reviewing regarding M222 have been around for >>> awhile. See this discussion. I'm sure you have probably seen it >>> before, but almost dejavu (spelling an example of phonetics) >>> >>> http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8846.10;wap2 >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 ****************************************** ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:47:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <4c7c.2206df02.3b8b146b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 8/27/2011 8:10:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rreid002@insight.rr.com writes: Such a beginning is found in the old Irish annals and the old writ, Ceart Ui Neill, out of Donegal, Ireland. The MacTavishes come from the Cenel nDuach a branch of the Cenel Conaill, descended from the Pictish Kings of Ros Guill and Irguill, now part of Donegal, and also from Dal-araidhe, now part of Antrim and Down. The Greek (Roman)historian, mapmaker and mathmetician, Ptolemy, mentions the tribe under the name of Ouenniknoi (Windukatii), and the lineage is tracable in such texts as the Irish Annuls of Ulster and Four Masters. This writer seems to be combining Lacey's Cruithin origin for the Cenel Conaill with his own guesses at the origin of his Scottish surname. The Ceart Ui Neill, the Rights of O'Neill mentions a sub-chieftain of the O'Donnells as Mac Giolla Shamhais from Ros Buill. The same name also appears in the Topographical Poems. To MacGillatsamhais the stout, Belong Ros-Guill2 and Ros-Iorguil,I reckon; O'Donovan's notes: 210. Gillatsamhais.-This name is now either unknown or lurks under some anglicised form. The most analogical anglicised form of it would be MacIltavish. The line is only traceable if you assume they are indeed descended from the Cenel Duach of Donegal. The pedigree of the Cenel Duach can be found in the Rawlinson B.502 genealogies and is as presented by the writer except for the inclusion of Fergus Cennfoda (or maybe that's something he took from Lacey or an entry in the Annals of Ulster in 586). Of course each name in the pedigree is a prince - one even married a daughter of King Loarn of Scotland. They held some early importance within the Cenel Conaill. One was King of Tara in the late 500s. At any rate it seems to be a classic example of someone latching onto an Irish surname in early records and assuming that is the origin of their own surname centuries later in another country. John ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286 ******************************************

It isn't just you, but for a long time I thought it was just me. I submitted a problem report last week. Hopefully there will be a solution soon. Susan Milligan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:41 AM Subject: [R-M222] FTDNA > Until what feels like about 3 weeks ago, it was possible to download > 111-marker haplotypes only (meaning one could exclude 12,25,37 and > 67-marker > haploypes) from FTDNA public sites. This facility seems to have > disappeared. > Is this a general problem, or is it only me?