Parents of John of Rockburne Cooper Father _John Cooper_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/cooper_john/john-cooper-b.1568-d.1594-1) b. 1568 Edinburgh, Midlothian, , Scotland d. 17 Feb 1594 Little Harwood, Buckinghamshire, , England Mother _Martha Skutt_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/skutt_martha/martha-skutt-b.1550-d.1610-2) b. 1550 Drew, Somerset, , England d. 1610 Additional Facts for John of Rockburne Cooper Name at Birth: John of Rockburne Cooper Birth: 1598 - Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, England Marriage: 1 JAN 1617 - Dorset, England Death: 23 MAR 1631 - Rockburne, Sham, Dorset, England Gender: Male (javascript:gopage('h t t p s : / / w w w . f a m i l y p u r s u i t . c o m / R e g i s t r a t i o n . S h o w C o m m u n i t y R e g i s t r a t i o n ? a = e m a r r i a g e s & i d = 3 9 9 8 6 2 ');) (javascript:gopage('h t t p s : / / w w w . f a m i l y p u r s u i t . c o m / R e g i s t r a t i o n . S h o w C o m m u n i t y R e g i s t r a t i o n ? a = a m a r r i a g e s & i d = 3 9 9 8 6 2 ');) Marriages of John of Rockburne Cooper _Ann Elizabeth Ashley_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/ashley_ann/ann-elizabeth-ashley-b.1602-d.1628-1) b. 1602 Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, England d. 20 JUL 1628 Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, England Marriage: (javascript:gopage('h t t p s : / / w w w . f a m i l y p u r s u i t . c o m / R e g i s t r a t i o n . S h o w C o m m u n i t y R e g i s t r a t i o n ? a = e c h i l d r e n & i d = 3 9 9 8 6 2 ');) (javascript:gopage('h t t p s : / / w w w . f a m i l y p u r s u i t . c o m / R e g i s t r a t i o n . S h o w C o m m u n i t y R e g i s t r a t i o n ? a = a c h i l d r e n & i d = 3 9 9 8 6 2 ');) Children of John of Rockburne Cooper Children with _Ann Elizabeth Ashley_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/ashley_ann/ann-elizabeth-ashley-b.1602-d.1628-1) b. 1602 Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, England d. 20 JUL 1628 Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, England _George Ashley Cooper_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/cooper_george/george-ashley-cooper-b.1621-d.1682-1) b. 22 Jul 1621 St Giles, Dorset, , England d. 28 Jan 1682 Stratford, Warwickshire, , England _Anthony Ashley Cooper_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/cooper_anthony/anthony-ashley-cooper-b.1621-d.1683-2) b. 22 JUN 1621 Wimborne, St Giles, Dorset, England d. 22 JAN 1683 Amsterdam, Holland _Philippa Cooper_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/cooper_philippa/philippa-cooper-b.1624-d.1701-1) b. 1624 Rockbourne, Hampshire, , England d. 20 May 1701 Mitchall, Surrey, , England _Lady Jane Cooper_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/cooper_lady/lady-jane-cooper-b.1627-d.1682-1) b. ABT 1627 Lancashire, England d. 20 JUL 1682 Lancaster, , Virginia, USA (javascript:gopage('h t t p s : / / w w w . f a m i l y p u r s u i t . c o m / R e g i s t r a t i o n . S h o w C o m m u n i t y R e g i s t r a t i o n ? a = e p a r e n t s & i d = 3 9 9 8 6 2 ');) (javascript:gopage('h t t p s : / / w w w . f a m i l y p u r s u i t . c o m / R e g i s t r a t i o n . S h o w C o m m u n i t y R e g i s t r a t i o n ? a = a p a r e n t s & i d = 3 9 9 8 6 2 ');) Parents of John of Rockburne Cooper Father _John Cooper_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/cooper_john/john-cooper-b.1568-d.1594-1) b. 1568 Edinburgh, Midlothian, , Scotland d. 17 Feb 1594 Little Harwood, Buckinghamshire, , England Mother _Martha Skutt_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/skutt_martha/martha-skutt-b.1550-d.1610-2) b. 1550 Drew, Somerset, , England d. 1610 ENGLAND (javascript:gopage('h t t p s : / / w w w . f a m i l y p u r s u i t . c o m / R e g i s t r a t i o n . S h o w C o m m u n i t y R e g i s t r a t i o n ? a = s d i s c u s s i o n s & i d = 3 9 9 8 6 2 ');) The following people contributed information to this record. Chuck Cooper (javascript:gopage('h t t p s : / / w w w . f a m i l y p u r s u i t . c o m / r e s o u r c e s / c l i c k . p h p ? i d = 3 ');)

_http://files.usgwarchives.net/nc/wayne/heritage/cooper.txt_ (http://files.usgwarchives.net/nc/wayne/heritage/cooper.txt) The Rev. Fleet Cooper, Sr., (1722-1795) was a pioneer Baptist minister in Sampson and Duplin Counties and was a prominent political figure during the American Revolution. According to a reliable genealogist, the Coopers were descended from at least four of the Barons who signed the Magna Carta and Fleet Cooper was descended from a brother of Anthony Ashley Cooper (Earl of Shaftsbury), who was one of the Lords Proprietors who were granted the Carolinas in 1663 by Charles II Haplogroup: R1b1b2a1b5 (tested) Last name: Cooper Variant spellings: Tested with: Family Tree DNA Contact person: Daniel Cooper _Contact this user_ (http://www.ysearch.org/alphalist_view.asp?uid=nq89f&letter=C&lastname=Cooper&viewuid=R7DQX&p=0#)

I missed the third leading expert on the area, Martin McGregor, who wrote his Ph.D. thesis on the political history of the MacGregors. Unfortunately this is unpublished although I have read the original at the Special Collections library of Edinburgh University. I also have his book chapter on the Gaelic genealogies of Scotland mentioned in his bibliography. Here are links to all three scholars I have mentioned: http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/history/staff/academicstaff/martinmacgregor/ web archive of Gordon's site, pending its reconstruction: http://web.archive.org/web/20110301235952/http://gordonamacgregor.com/ usually at http://www.gordonamacgregor.com/ http://www.jamesirvinerobertson.co.uk/index.html Iain > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 08:25:09 -0400 > From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; bernardmorgan@hotmail.com; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] M222 Robertson/Duncan& other surnamesfrom official site of Clan Donnachaidh > > Clan Donnachaidh > Robertson * Reid * Duncan > > > Origins of Clan Donnachaidh > > Abbot Crinan of Dunkeld, descended from the kindred of St. Columba, was > father of Duncan, King of Scots. He was killed by MacBeth but his > descendants held the throne for two and a half centuries. The king had a > younger son Maelmare who became Earl of Atholl and was the ancestor of > the Chiefs of Clan Donnachaidh. > > > The chiefs are numbered from *Duncan the Stout* (stout in battle rather > than in belly) who lived in the 1300s. He held lands in Rannoch and > around Glen Errochty and took his followers to fight at Bannockburn in > 1314 in support of his friend, King Robert The Bruce. His son Robert > (perhaps called after Bruce) inherited land from his own mother and his > estate ran from the edge of the Grampians to the gates of Perth. > > > *Origin of the Name Robertson* > > > In 1437 the chief *Robert Riach* (grizzled) captured Sir Robert Graham > who, with others, had just murdered the King James I at Perth. In reward > James II gave Robert a charter in which all of his lands were made into > a feudal barony giving him administrative control over them. > > > The barony was called Struan and the chief was henceforth known as > *Robertson (from this Robert) of Struan* > > > *In Support of the Stuart Kings* > > > Successive chiefs led the clan through the intermittent turmoil of 15th > and 16th century Atholl. > In the 17th century the Highlands were drawn into national history in > support of the Stuart Kings. In 1644 the Clan fought with Montrose and > never lost a battle. The clan regiment was in evidence again in 1653, > 1689, 1715, and 1745. The last three dates mark the Jacobite risings, in > all of which *Alexander Robertson of Struan*, the Poet Chief > <file:///C:%5CUsers%5CB%20&%20C%5CDesktop%5CDocuments%5Cdonnachaidh19%5CPoet%20Chief.htm>, > took part. > > > *The Breakdown of the Clan System* > > > After the Battle of Culloden, estates owned by Jacobites were forfeited > and run by the government until 1784 when they were returned -- along > with the old debts. > But the clan system had been destroyed and chiefs found it increasingly > difficult to make a living. Our chiefs did not evict clansmen and no > clearances took place on their estate, but in 1853 our chief sold Struan > and Dunalastair, leaving only Rannoch. He moved to a new house at Dall > but sold that in 1861. In 1926 the last land in Rannoch was sold. By > then the chiefship had passed to a branch of the family who, about 1800, > had emigrated to make a living in Jamaica. > > Now the chief is back, and the clan once more owns land in Atholl. > > In 730 AD Angus McFergus, King of the Picts, ousted the Moraemar or > petty king of Atholl and and took it over as a royal possession. It must > have been one of the first Pictish kingdoms to be infiltrated by the > Scots for the name itself derives from Flota, meaning New Ireland, first > appearing in the Annals of Ulster in 739. A century later, in 848 the > Scot Kenneth MacAlpine was able to claim the crown of both peoples, > forming the nucleus of modern Scotland and he set up his capital at > Dunkeld to which he moved the 200 year-old college of Dull. > > > /Brooch2/ > > /Dated as 9th century, this silver brooch was Found at the Pictish > Palace, near Aldclune during the building of the A9. / > > Malcolm II who died in 1034 was the last of the direct male > line from Kenneth. His daughter married Crinan, lay abbot of Dunkeld and > male heir to the Celtic earls of Atholl. Their son was king Duncan, > famously murdered by Macbeth who was in turn killed by Malcolm Canmore. > The latter's second son Malcolm fathered the 2nd Earl of Atholl. The 3rd > earl's eldest son predeeased his father and his granddaughters carried > the earldom out of the old royal line but his second son was Conan whose > name appears on charters soon after 1200 receiving grants of land in > Glen Errochty. And he passed his Highland Perthshire lands to his > descendants. > > Duncan de Atholia is considered the first chief of Clan > Donnachaidh and confusion has attached itself to his ancestry. Up until > the 19th century the Clan and everyone else knew that he was descended > in the male line from the Lords of the Isles, progenitors of Clan > Donald. This is stated in the oldest sources of both Clan Donald and > Clan Donnachaidh. Then, in the 1830s, the Historiographer Royal for > Scotland, William Skene, came to the conclusion that Duncan was > descended in the male line from Conan, male descendant of the last > Celtic Earl of Atholl, and not from Somerled, and so inherited his > estates directly rather than through marriage. Skene had found a charter > mentioning Andrew de Atholia as father of Duncan who was not mentioned > in the traditional pedigrees and from this and the absence of reference > to the Island kindred in Duncan's coat of arms, he decided that the > accepted lineage was wrong. > > But Duncan the 14th chief, wrote on this subject a good sixty > years before Skene and he pointed out that the old oral 'genealogies may > be and actually are very much abridged.' He did not know of Andrew de > Atholia but would have found nothing unusual about his omission from the > traditional pedigree. The chief's coat of arms incorporates three wolf's > heads. > > > /DuncanArms / > > / Arms of Duncan, the first chief / > > > > However on an early seal St Columba is enthroned on a couple of wolves > and the supporters of the chief's arms are a serpent and dove which > again suggests descent from the Kindred of St Columba. And it has been > speculated that wolves featured on the arms of the old earls of Atholl. > > But the kindred of the Columba also married into the kindred of > the Isles, so the wolf, the dove and serpent could have come through > this route. It looked unlikely that Duncan's descent could ever be > proved. But a new clue came with the arrival of DNA testing which showed > that the chief's line shared a strong similarity to the DNA of those who > descend from Niall of the Nine Hostages, a High King of Ireland who died > about 405. This would indicate a descent from the old Celtic earls of > Atholl, who were descendants of the kings of Dalriada, Scotti from > Ireland, and not from Somerled. > > Then, in 2006, the researcher Gordon MacGregor was asked to take > a look at the origins of the clan and his examination of previously > unconsidered charters turned up the vital evidence which he reported in > the 2007 Clan Donnachaidh Annual. He discovered that the lands of > Struan, the Clan Donnachaidh chiefs' lands and barony in Atholl, had > originally been carved out of the earldom of Atholl and bundled with the > Lude estate as Clunes. And that these lands could only descend in the > male line. The likely line of ancestral ownership, for good if complex > reasons, went Duncan -- Andrew -- Madach of Clunes -- Duncan -- Malcolm, > 2nd Earl of Atholl. > > Andrew of Atholl was a comparatively junior member of the family > but he had a son, Duncan. A charter showed that Ewan of Glenerochie, the > holder of that part of the estate, had only daughters. On Ewan's death, > they were able to inherit some of his lands, but Struan could only be > passed to the heir-male and went to Duncan. It seems probable that > Conan, Ewan's father was a cousin of Madach. Ewan was the last male > descendant of Henry, the 3rd Earl of Atholl. Henry had two brothers -- > Malcolm and Duncan -- and it is most likely that Duncan was Madach's father. > > Although the precise descent of the Clan has still to be > confirmed. it is certain that the chiefs were the male heirs to the old > Celtic earls of Atholl and thus have the oldest certifiable ancestry of > any family in Scotland. > > This new information has created complications. In the 19th > and 20th centuries, history was subordinated to clan pride. This was not > an exclusive problem for the Clan Donnachaidh but in most cases it did > not matter. So foggy are the origins of many of the clans that there is > only the very faintest likelihood of real history rising up to > contradict the fanciful stories of times of yore. So the Clan > Donnachaidh is both fortunate in discovering the reality of its > foundations, and unfortunate because these demonstrate that some of the > tales circulated for centuries about our earliest heroes cannot be true. > > Perhaps the prime loser in this is Stout Duncan -- Duncan de > Atholia -- who has been considered the founder of the clan and close > friend of King Robert Bruce. However it now seems more probable that the > Dunchad or Duncan who founded the clan was the brother of Earl Henry and > great-grandfather of Stout Duncan. By claiming descent from him, the > clan would be demonstrating their descent from the Earls of Atholl and > thus proving their potent local origins to incoming Menzies and Stewart > landowners. It would also make some sense of the old story that the > chief of the clan turned down the offer of the earldom of Atholl in > preference for a charter of Struan in 1451. The offer would not have > been made but it might show a long-standing boast of the clan's descent > and position as recognised heirs-male of the Earls and therefore their > rightful heirs. > > In the following chapter some of these old stories concerning > Stout Duncan are re-told. Since it is now known that his date of birth > was not 1275 as has been claimed, but much more likely to have been > around 1305, it cannot have been Duncan who was involved with King > Robert Bruce. It may have been his father Andrew, a shadowy figure. As a > younger son and not a landholder in his own right, he only appears in > history named in a single charter, but he was a contemporary with Bruce > and, as part of the kinship group that controlled Atholl, it is very > likely that he and his relatives played a part in the Wars of > Independence. However Duncan has been allowed to remain as centre of the > Clan's Bannockburn tradition. But a pinch of salt should be added to the > mix, at least until the tales of his skirmishes with the Macdougalls and > the discovery of the charm stone. These probably belong to history > rather than legend. > > According to previous legend, Duncan was said to have been born in > the year 1275, just in time to take part in the opening rounds of the > War of Independence against the English. Traditionally William Wallace > sought refuge in Atholl after his defeat at Falkirk in 1297. John Baliol > was installed as Edward of England's puppet king in 1292 but his master > removed him four years later for 'contumacy' leaving the country without > a monarch. Bruce and the Red Comyn were rival claimants for the throne. > At a meeting in the Franciscan priory at Dumfries in 1306, Bruce slew > his opponent in front of the high altar. Alastair Macdougall, Lord of > Lorne, was married to the dead man's aunt and therefore now had a > blood-feud with Bruce. > > In 1306 Bruce was crowned at Scone and soon after was routed at > the battle of Methven. He, his queen, and a few followers escaped into > Atholl and, again according to legend, was received by Duncan. Duncan > was thought to have had his stronghold in a castle on the island in Loch > Tummel, which was submerged in 1950 when the loch was raised by five > metres by a hydro-electric dam, and Bruce took refuge in the the Wood of > Kynachan just a couple of miles to the west. A ford on the Tummel, now > beneath Dunalastair Water, was the King's ford. The King's Hall was in > the woods to the south and the Queen's Pool was a little further > downstream. Strong tradition tells of an unrecorded battle between Lochs > Tummel and Rannoch at this time. Innerhadden was where the battle > started, Dalchosnie next door means field of fighting; Glen Sassunn is > the glen of the southerners, the route taken by the enemy troops. The > result was a victory thanks to the women of the Clan who supported their > menfolk by filling stockings with stones and using them as clubs to > devastating effect. > > With Clan Donnachaidh by his side, the king ventured west and was > defeated at Dalrigh (the field of the king) near Tyndrum by the > Macdougalls of Lorne and retired back to Strathtummel. In this battle > the king lost the brooch with which he pinned his cloak and this is > still in the possession of the victor's descendants. Eight years later > the Clan went down to Bannockburn to fight alongside Bruce to defeat the > English and make him undisputed king of Scots. > > Bannockburn, of course, is the seminal battle in the fight for > Scots independence from England. As a result every clan wishes to claim > that it was part of Bruce's army. The earliest written reference to the > participation of the clans seems not come until 1822, when the historian > David Stewart of Garth listed twenty one Highland chiefs that were > there, but he gives no source for the information. > > There is strong logic that Clan Donnachaidh would have been at > Bannockburn. As well as logic, there is tradition that supports this. > Clan Donnachaidh is said to have been a little late for the conflict, > and were part of the contingent that came down from Gillies Hill at the > decisive moment of the battle and these reinforcements tipped the > balance in Bruce's favour. > > On the bare framework of this tradition an elaborate account of > the Clan's involvement in the battle has been constructed which ends > with the victorious king declaring 'Hitherto ye have been called the > sons of Duncan, but henceforth ye shall be called my children.' This > explanation of the origin of Robert-son as the Clan's primary surname > actually predates its first use by well over a century. > > Brooch > > /The Brooch of Lorne, snatched from King Robert Bruce at the Battle of > Dalrigh 1306 when he and Clan Donnachaidh lost to the Lords of Lorne. It > is still in the possession of the Macdougalls of Dunollie/ > > > > The Clan had several more encounters with the Macdougalls. The only > record of one was written down by Ewen Macdougall, Clerk to the Earl of > Breadalbane at Taymouth, in the 1820s and describes the aftermath of a > cattle raid or /creach/ against Clan Donnachaidh. The Macdougalls were > tracked west and the two forces met in Glen Orchy 'where they fought > bitterly, the Rannoch men were slain and their Chief fled with > difficulty. The slain were buried and the cairns are still called Cairn > nan Rannoch, or Rannoch Men's Cairns, and their arms cast into a small > Loch near the Cairns called Lochan nan Arn.' It seems likely that this > is a traditional local interpretation of Bruce's defeat at Tyndrum after > which the losers' weapons were also said to have been thrown into the > loch. If so, it would indicate that the bulk of Bruce's army were Clan > Donnachaidh men, and that the ordinary Macdougall warriors were more > pleased to have defeated them than the king. The monarch must have been > a remote figure to most people, intent on consolidating his national > position. Duncan's followers were local rivals against whom clashes must > have been frequent. > > However with Duncan at its head the Clan was usually on the winning > side. It is possible that his most famous meeting with the Macdougalls > is an amalgam of several skirmishes, particularly since the date given > by one source of 1338 would make him past his prime for legendary feats > of agility. They sent an army into Atholl and Duncan, disguised as a > beggar, entered the enemy camp to scout it out. His cover was penetrated > and he had to flee for his life. He chopped down one of his pursuers and > then jumped across the chasm of the river Errochty to escape. The spot > is now beneath the dammed Loch Errochty so the distance, variously > reported between 11 and 16 feet, cannot be confirmed. His Gaelic name > Donnachd Reamhar (pronounced 'rav-ar') means literally Fat Duncan, but a > gravitationally-challenged warrior in his mid-fifties is unlikely to > have managed such a leap. 'Robust' or 'stout' would surely be a more > accurate translation. Another of his sobriquets was Gaisgeach Mor > Fea-Chorie - the great hero of Fea Corrie. The corrie, a remote cleft in > the hills west of Trinafour, was the muster point for Duncan's warriors > before any campaign. It, too, is submerged beneath Loch Errochty > > The battle was the following day. At first light, the chief's standard > was pulled from the ground and with it came the Clach na Bratach - the > Stone of the Standard. This snooker ball-sized globe of rock crystal is > one of several charm stones to have survived. The Clach na Bratach is > on display in the Museum at Bruar. That of the Stewarts of Ardvorlich is > the Clach Dearig - the red stone. The Campbells of Glenlyon had one but > theirs was given to them by a visiting 'wizard' in the 16th century, > presumably part of his stock in trade. Such stones have been made and > venerated in all cultures for millennia. They are to be occasionally > found as grave goods in pagan Saxon burials and would have had religious > or mystical significance in pre-Christian religion. But how one came to > be in the wilds of Atholl can only be guessed at. > > Jir3a > > The above is excerpted from "The Robertsons, Clan Donnachaidh in Atholl" > by James Irvine Robertson. > > If you would like to order the book, go to www.librario.com > <http://www.librario.com> > > Top of Page <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Clan%20History.html> > > Home <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Donnachaidh.com/index.html> * > Current News > <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Donnachaidh.com/Current%20News.html> * > Youth Program <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Youth.html> * Contact Us > <http://www.donnachaidh.com/ContactUs.html> * The Society > <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Society.html> > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The two modern scholars working this area including the Robertson line, as mentioned below, are James Irvine Robertson and Gordon MacGregor. I have had contact with both of them although not over the Robertsons. Gordon has produced the Red Book of Perthshire which documents all the landholding families of Perthshire from primary sources and is heavily annotated so you can check each step yourself. It is an enormous contribution to the study of the county and nothing else past or present is comparable in my view. The last time I checked, he has *not* traced a direct male line from the Robertsons back to Crinan; however in his book he is quite open which lines are proven and in the rare instance when a line is speculative it clearly says so. You can read bits of it on Amazon. It is a shame Gordon's website which contained large chunks of his research notes is down. I had previously downloaded some of them but not the one in question. The laird of Struan had a place at Carie on the south shore of Loch Rannoch but did not (at least from the 1400s onwards) own land on the north of the loch which was more heavily populated. cheers Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 08:25:09 -0400 > From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; bernardmorgan@hotmail.com; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] M222 Robertson/Duncan& other surnamesfrom official site of Clan Donnachaidh > > Clan Donnachaidh > Robertson * Reid * Duncan > > > Origins of Clan Donnachaidh > > Abbot Crinan of Dunkeld, descended from the kindred of St. Columba, was > father of Duncan, King of Scots. He was killed by MacBeth but his > descendants held the throne for two and a half centuries. The king had a > younger son Maelmare who became Earl of Atholl and was the ancestor of > the Chiefs of Clan Donnachaidh. > > > The chiefs are numbered from *Duncan the Stout* (stout in battle rather > than in belly) who lived in the 1300s. He held lands in Rannoch and > around Glen Errochty and took his followers to fight at Bannockburn in > 1314 in support of his friend, King Robert The Bruce. His son Robert > (perhaps called after Bruce) inherited land from his own mother and his > estate ran from the edge of the Grampians to the gates of Perth. > > > *Origin of the Name Robertson* > > > In 1437 the chief *Robert Riach* (grizzled) captured Sir Robert Graham > who, with others, had just murdered the King James I at Perth. In reward > James II gave Robert a charter in which all of his lands were made into > a feudal barony giving him administrative control over them. > > > The barony was called Struan and the chief was henceforth known as > *Robertson (from this Robert) of Struan* > > > *In Support of the Stuart Kings* > > > Successive chiefs led the clan through the intermittent turmoil of 15th > and 16th century Atholl. > In the 17th century the Highlands were drawn into national history in > support of the Stuart Kings. In 1644 the Clan fought with Montrose and > never lost a battle. The clan regiment was in evidence again in 1653, > 1689, 1715, and 1745. The last three dates mark the Jacobite risings, in > all of which *Alexander Robertson of Struan*, the Poet Chief > <file:///C:%5CUsers%5CB%20&%20C%5CDesktop%5CDocuments%5Cdonnachaidh19%5CPoet%20Chief.htm>, > took part. > > > *The Breakdown of the Clan System* > > > After the Battle of Culloden, estates owned by Jacobites were forfeited > and run by the government until 1784 when they were returned -- along > with the old debts. > But the clan system had been destroyed and chiefs found it increasingly > difficult to make a living. Our chiefs did not evict clansmen and no > clearances took place on their estate, but in 1853 our chief sold Struan > and Dunalastair, leaving only Rannoch. He moved to a new house at Dall > but sold that in 1861. In 1926 the last land in Rannoch was sold. By > then the chiefship had passed to a branch of the family who, about 1800, > had emigrated to make a living in Jamaica. > > Now the chief is back, and the clan once more owns land in Atholl. > > In 730 AD Angus McFergus, King of the Picts, ousted the Moraemar or > petty king of Atholl and and took it over as a royal possession. It must > have been one of the first Pictish kingdoms to be infiltrated by the > Scots for the name itself derives from Flota, meaning New Ireland, first > appearing in the Annals of Ulster in 739. A century later, in 848 the > Scot Kenneth MacAlpine was able to claim the crown of both peoples, > forming the nucleus of modern Scotland and he set up his capital at > Dunkeld to which he moved the 200 year-old college of Dull. > > > /Brooch2/ > > /Dated as 9th century, this silver brooch was Found at the Pictish > Palace, near Aldclune during the building of the A9. / > > Malcolm II who died in 1034 was the last of the direct male > line from Kenneth. His daughter married Crinan, lay abbot of Dunkeld and > male heir to the Celtic earls of Atholl. Their son was king Duncan, > famously murdered by Macbeth who was in turn killed by Malcolm Canmore. > The latter's second son Malcolm fathered the 2nd Earl of Atholl. The 3rd > earl's eldest son predeeased his father and his granddaughters carried > the earldom out of the old royal line but his second son was Conan whose > name appears on charters soon after 1200 receiving grants of land in > Glen Errochty. And he passed his Highland Perthshire lands to his > descendants. > > Duncan de Atholia is considered the first chief of Clan > Donnachaidh and confusion has attached itself to his ancestry. Up until > the 19th century the Clan and everyone else knew that he was descended > in the male line from the Lords of the Isles, progenitors of Clan > Donald. This is stated in the oldest sources of both Clan Donald and > Clan Donnachaidh. Then, in the 1830s, the Historiographer Royal for > Scotland, William Skene, came to the conclusion that Duncan was > descended in the male line from Conan, male descendant of the last > Celtic Earl of Atholl, and not from Somerled, and so inherited his > estates directly rather than through marriage. Skene had found a charter > mentioning Andrew de Atholia as father of Duncan who was not mentioned > in the traditional pedigrees and from this and the absence of reference > to the Island kindred in Duncan's coat of arms, he decided that the > accepted lineage was wrong. > > But Duncan the 14th chief, wrote on this subject a good sixty > years before Skene and he pointed out that the old oral 'genealogies may > be and actually are very much abridged.' He did not know of Andrew de > Atholia but would have found nothing unusual about his omission from the > traditional pedigree. The chief's coat of arms incorporates three wolf's > heads. > > > /DuncanArms / > > / Arms of Duncan, the first chief / > > > > However on an early seal St Columba is enthroned on a couple of wolves > and the supporters of the chief's arms are a serpent and dove which > again suggests descent from the Kindred of St Columba. And it has been > speculated that wolves featured on the arms of the old earls of Atholl. > > But the kindred of the Columba also married into the kindred of > the Isles, so the wolf, the dove and serpent could have come through > this route. It looked unlikely that Duncan's descent could ever be > proved. But a new clue came with the arrival of DNA testing which showed > that the chief's line shared a strong similarity to the DNA of those who > descend from Niall of the Nine Hostages, a High King of Ireland who died > about 405. This would indicate a descent from the old Celtic earls of > Atholl, who were descendants of the kings of Dalriada, Scotti from > Ireland, and not from Somerled. > > Then, in 2006, the researcher Gordon MacGregor was asked to take > a look at the origins of the clan and his examination of previously > unconsidered charters turned up the vital evidence which he reported in > the 2007 Clan Donnachaidh Annual. He discovered that the lands of > Struan, the Clan Donnachaidh chiefs' lands and barony in Atholl, had > originally been carved out of the earldom of Atholl and bundled with the > Lude estate as Clunes. And that these lands could only descend in the > male line. The likely line of ancestral ownership, for good if complex > reasons, went Duncan -- Andrew -- Madach of Clunes -- Duncan -- Malcolm, > 2nd Earl of Atholl. > > Andrew of Atholl was a comparatively junior member of the family > but he had a son, Duncan. A charter showed that Ewan of Glenerochie, the > holder of that part of the estate, had only daughters. On Ewan's death, > they were able to inherit some of his lands, but Struan could only be > passed to the heir-male and went to Duncan. It seems probable that > Conan, Ewan's father was a cousin of Madach. Ewan was the last male > descendant of Henry, the 3rd Earl of Atholl. Henry had two brothers -- > Malcolm and Duncan -- and it is most likely that Duncan was Madach's father. > > Although the precise descent of the Clan has still to be > confirmed. it is certain that the chiefs were the male heirs to the old > Celtic earls of Atholl and thus have the oldest certifiable ancestry of > any family in Scotland. > > This new information has created complications. In the 19th > and 20th centuries, history was subordinated to clan pride. This was not > an exclusive problem for the Clan Donnachaidh but in most cases it did > not matter. So foggy are the origins of many of the clans that there is > only the very faintest likelihood of real history rising up to > contradict the fanciful stories of times of yore. So the Clan > Donnachaidh is both fortunate in discovering the reality of its > foundations, and unfortunate because these demonstrate that some of the > tales circulated for centuries about our earliest heroes cannot be true. > > Perhaps the prime loser in this is Stout Duncan -- Duncan de > Atholia -- who has been considered the founder of the clan and close > friend of King Robert Bruce. However it now seems more probable that the > Dunchad or Duncan who founded the clan was the brother of Earl Henry and > great-grandfather of Stout Duncan. By claiming descent from him, the > clan would be demonstrating their descent from the Earls of Atholl and > thus proving their potent local origins to incoming Menzies and Stewart > landowners. It would also make some sense of the old story that the > chief of the clan turned down the offer of the earldom of Atholl in > preference for a charter of Struan in 1451. The offer would not have > been made but it might show a long-standing boast of the clan's descent > and position as recognised heirs-male of the Earls and therefore their > rightful heirs. > > In the following chapter some of these old stories concerning > Stout Duncan are re-told. Since it is now known that his date of birth > was not 1275 as has been claimed, but much more likely to have been > around 1305, it cannot have been Duncan who was involved with King > Robert Bruce. It may have been his father Andrew, a shadowy figure. As a > younger son and not a landholder in his own right, he only appears in > history named in a single charter, but he was a contemporary with Bruce > and, as part of the kinship group that controlled Atholl, it is very > likely that he and his relatives played a part in the Wars of > Independence. However Duncan has been allowed to remain as centre of the > Clan's Bannockburn tradition. But a pinch of salt should be added to the > mix, at least until the tales of his skirmishes with the Macdougalls and > the discovery of the charm stone. These probably belong to history > rather than legend. > > According to previous legend, Duncan was said to have been born in > the year 1275, just in time to take part in the opening rounds of the > War of Independence against the English. Traditionally William Wallace > sought refuge in Atholl after his defeat at Falkirk in 1297. John Baliol > was installed as Edward of England's puppet king in 1292 but his master > removed him four years later for 'contumacy' leaving the country without > a monarch. Bruce and the Red Comyn were rival claimants for the throne. > At a meeting in the Franciscan priory at Dumfries in 1306, Bruce slew > his opponent in front of the high altar. Alastair Macdougall, Lord of > Lorne, was married to the dead man's aunt and therefore now had a > blood-feud with Bruce. > > In 1306 Bruce was crowned at Scone and soon after was routed at > the battle of Methven. He, his queen, and a few followers escaped into > Atholl and, again according to legend, was received by Duncan. Duncan > was thought to have had his stronghold in a castle on the island in Loch > Tummel, which was submerged in 1950 when the loch was raised by five > metres by a hydro-electric dam, and Bruce took refuge in the the Wood of > Kynachan just a couple of miles to the west. A ford on the Tummel, now > beneath Dunalastair Water, was the King's ford. The King's Hall was in > the woods to the south and the Queen's Pool was a little further > downstream. Strong tradition tells of an unrecorded battle between Lochs > Tummel and Rannoch at this time. Innerhadden was where the battle > started, Dalchosnie next door means field of fighting; Glen Sassunn is > the glen of the southerners, the route taken by the enemy troops. The > result was a victory thanks to the women of the Clan who supported their > menfolk by filling stockings with stones and using them as clubs to > devastating effect. > > With Clan Donnachaidh by his side, the king ventured west and was > defeated at Dalrigh (the field of the king) near Tyndrum by the > Macdougalls of Lorne and retired back to Strathtummel. In this battle > the king lost the brooch with which he pinned his cloak and this is > still in the possession of the victor's descendants. Eight years later > the Clan went down to Bannockburn to fight alongside Bruce to defeat the > English and make him undisputed king of Scots. > > Bannockburn, of course, is the seminal battle in the fight for > Scots independence from England. As a result every clan wishes to claim > that it was part of Bruce's army. The earliest written reference to the > participation of the clans seems not come until 1822, when the historian > David Stewart of Garth listed twenty one Highland chiefs that were > there, but he gives no source for the information. > > There is strong logic that Clan Donnachaidh would have been at > Bannockburn. As well as logic, there is tradition that supports this. > Clan Donnachaidh is said to have been a little late for the conflict, > and were part of the contingent that came down from Gillies Hill at the > decisive moment of the battle and these reinforcements tipped the > balance in Bruce's favour. > > On the bare framework of this tradition an elaborate account of > the Clan's involvement in the battle has been constructed which ends > with the victorious king declaring 'Hitherto ye have been called the > sons of Duncan, but henceforth ye shall be called my children.' This > explanation of the origin of Robert-son as the Clan's primary surname > actually predates its first use by well over a century. > > Brooch > > /The Brooch of Lorne, snatched from King Robert Bruce at the Battle of > Dalrigh 1306 when he and Clan Donnachaidh lost to the Lords of Lorne. It > is still in the possession of the Macdougalls of Dunollie/ > > > > The Clan had several more encounters with the Macdougalls. The only > record of one was written down by Ewen Macdougall, Clerk to the Earl of > Breadalbane at Taymouth, in the 1820s and describes the aftermath of a > cattle raid or /creach/ against Clan Donnachaidh. The Macdougalls were > tracked west and the two forces met in Glen Orchy 'where they fought > bitterly, the Rannoch men were slain and their Chief fled with > difficulty. The slain were buried and the cairns are still called Cairn > nan Rannoch, or Rannoch Men's Cairns, and their arms cast into a small > Loch near the Cairns called Lochan nan Arn.' It seems likely that this > is a traditional local interpretation of Bruce's defeat at Tyndrum after > which the losers' weapons were also said to have been thrown into the > loch. If so, it would indicate that the bulk of Bruce's army were Clan > Donnachaidh men, and that the ordinary Macdougall warriors were more > pleased to have defeated them than the king. The monarch must have been > a remote figure to most people, intent on consolidating his national > position. Duncan's followers were local rivals against whom clashes must > have been frequent. > > However with Duncan at its head the Clan was usually on the winning > side. It is possible that his most famous meeting with the Macdougalls > is an amalgam of several skirmishes, particularly since the date given > by one source of 1338 would make him past his prime for legendary feats > of agility. They sent an army into Atholl and Duncan, disguised as a > beggar, entered the enemy camp to scout it out. His cover was penetrated > and he had to flee for his life. He chopped down one of his pursuers and > then jumped across the chasm of the river Errochty to escape. The spot > is now beneath the dammed Loch Errochty so the distance, variously > reported between 11 and 16 feet, cannot be confirmed. His Gaelic name > Donnachd Reamhar (pronounced 'rav-ar') means literally Fat Duncan, but a > gravitationally-challenged warrior in his mid-fifties is unlikely to > have managed such a leap. 'Robust' or 'stout' would surely be a more > accurate translation. Another of his sobriquets was Gaisgeach Mor > Fea-Chorie - the great hero of Fea Corrie. The corrie, a remote cleft in > the hills west of Trinafour, was the muster point for Duncan's warriors > before any campaign. It, too, is submerged beneath Loch Errochty > > The battle was the following day. At first light, the chief's standard > was pulled from the ground and with it came the Clach na Bratach - the > Stone of the Standard. This snooker ball-sized globe of rock crystal is > one of several charm stones to have survived. The Clach na Bratach is > on display in the Museum at Bruar. That of the Stewarts of Ardvorlich is > the Clach Dearig - the red stone. The Campbells of Glenlyon had one but > theirs was given to them by a visiting 'wizard' in the 16th century, > presumably part of his stock in trade. Such stones have been made and > venerated in all cultures for millennia. They are to be occasionally > found as grave goods in pagan Saxon burials and would have had religious > or mystical significance in pre-Christian religion. But how one came to > be in the wilds of Atholl can only be guessed at. > > Jir3a > > The above is excerpted from "The Robertsons, Clan Donnachaidh in Atholl" > by James Irvine Robertson. > > If you would like to order the book, go to www.librario.com > <http://www.librario.com> > > Top of Page <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Clan%20History.html> > > Home <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Donnachaidh.com/index.html> * > Current News > <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Donnachaidh.com/Current%20News.html> * > Youth Program <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Youth.html> * Contact Us > <http://www.donnachaidh.com/ContactUs.html> * The Society > <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Society.html> > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> > If you read the candid summary of history previously posted one sees > that they honestly state the histories are a bit murky (as most scribed > oral histories are); however, the Clan does attempt to eek out the > probable(s) and has embraced DNA to assist in the process. > Very murky: Burke's 19th century "Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain" Has Donnachadh Reamhair the son of Andrew de Atholia as the grandson of Malcolm de Insulis (of the MacDonald kindred). Macolm de Insulis having married (in 1210) the heiress Lora, Comtissa de Atholia, daughter of Thomas of Galloway. Her half-brother was Patrick Earl of Atholl. [The book also discounts the claim that Andrew 's brother John, the Earl of Atholl, was in realty John de Strathbogie.] Skene's work : Cites a charter showing the proprietor of Glenerochie was Eugenius son of Coningi son of Henrici comitis Ahtoliae. It is through this land possession of Glenerochie, later incorporated into the Barony of Stowan, that Skene connects the illegitate ancestors of the last native Earl of Atholl with Donnachadh Reamhair the son of Andrew de Atholia 1st lord of Strowan. [Reference is also made to Donnachadh marring the daughter of Callum Rua Leamnach.]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'other large projects' but it would be interesting to have a comparison of the M222% for Stewart, Robertson and McGregor as all three have peak density in Perthshire (even if their true origins were elsewhere). The Kennedys from highland Perthshire I have tested (including myself) are a mixture but the M222 ones probably entered over the border from Lochaber. You are right that we may never solve the general problem of how everyone of a particular surname came to acquire it, but unearthing 'background' haplotypes for areas is a start. Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:12:34 -0400 > From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > To: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Family Tree DNA - Clan Donnachaidh DNA Project Website > > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/clandonnachaidh/default.aspx?section=ycolorized > > SET results to 1000. There are not that many results, however, well > over 750 and growing all the time. > > The results of this project are similar to those of other large projects -- > Currently M222 results project wide somewhere around 100 or slightly > under 1/7th of the published results. > > Up until DNA this clan like all others considered Surnames as chosen, > acquired, or changed as the classification for belonging. Only the > leadership was blood related, or attempted to be. > > If you read the candid summary of history previously posted one sees > that they honestly state the histories are a bit murky (as most scribed > oral histories are); however, the Clan does attempt to eek out the > probable(s) and has embraced DNA to assist in the process. > > Will we ever really know the entire truth? Probably not. Theories are > suggested, suggestions made which generally are revised over time as new > discoveries and/or theories are launced. > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Iain, I am in absolute agreement with you on this. Presently some of us from Clan Donnachaidh are now transferring the M222 results for all surnames of the project into Exel to have a look at phylogenetic trees using at least 2 or more analytical methods. I suggested to John some time back that it would be good to gather the M222 data from all the designated Scottish Clan projects and run them simultaneously as one large group, not just one project at a time. I think this would be very useful. From the little bit of research (and it certainly has not been extensive by any measure) on surname acquisition with-in Scotland, there were a variety of ways surname use evolved. It seems that early on the son's took on the McC, Mac, SON etc. (Duncan linguistically is supposedly a Saxon derivative used in the Anglicization process) of the given name of the father; ie if the father's given name was Robert, Robert(son), Mc Robert, Mac Robert, etc. There are some good sources to better explanations available. People also acquired their name by taking on the name of a chieftain or a renowned hero even if not blood related; taking on a name as suggested such as many who stood with Bruce were allowed the honor of carrying the name Robert(son). Some were required to take on a name -- ie there are histories suggesting that Robertson(s) often would change their surname to fly under the radar when the English were breaking up the clans -- Other stories say explicitly that some Robertson(s) in certain Scottish environs were required to change their names to McC; there are other stories which claim explicitly that McCs on Isle of Bute were required by the English to change their names to Duncan. And of course once patrilinear (sic) surname use was the norm, unless required to change name as seems to be the case in some instances, the surnames followed blood lines. Blood line surname use, however, was a bit late in the game. So in short it is rather a mixed up mess, and if nothing else perhaps by looking at the clans member databases at a whole, perhaps we will see more clarity into which groups and/or individuals were genetically related to who.

1. _ [ASHLEY] ASHLEY, ASHLEY-COOPER,Shaftesbury - Ancestry.com_ (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ASHLEY/2009-05/1242040844) archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ASHLEY/.../1242040844- _Cached_ (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xxV0z4AYQ3IJ:archiver.roots web.ancestry.com/th/read/ASHLEY/2009-05/1242040844+These+families+count+amon gst+their+ancestors+powerful+clan+chieftains,+..&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) May 11, 2009 – These families count amongst their ancestors powerful clan ... 2. _PerCom - RootsWeb Home Page - Ancestry.com_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lksstarr/reports/perduecommen.txt) homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lksstarr/.../perduecommen.txt- _Cached_ (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NV40wWzx8tIJ:homepages.ro otsweb.ancestry.com/~lksstarr/reports/perduecommen.txt+These+families+count+ amongst+their+ancestors+powerful+clan+chieftains,+..&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=u s) These families count amongst their ancestors powerful clan chieftains ... _Show more results from ancestry.com_ (http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNY_enUS421&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=These+families+count+amongst+their+a ncestors+powerful+clan+chieftains,+..#) 3. _RootsWeb: ASHLEY-L [ASHLEY] Ui Neill Clan of ancient Ireland_ (http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/ASHLEY/2008-10/1224925850) newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/ASHLEY/2008-10/1224925850 - _Cached_ (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:c8-jDf-jJ10J:newsarch.rootsweb. com/th/read/ASHLEY/2008-10/1224925850+These+families+count+amongst+their+anc estors+powerful+clan+chieftains,+..&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) Oct 25, 2008 – These families count amongst their ancestors powerful clan chieftains, extraordinary political leaders and monarchs and ... 4. _Antipodes: A lord and his lady_ (http://skyvington.blogspot.com/2009/02/lord-and-his-lady.html) skyvington.blogspot.com/2009/02/lord-and-his-lady.html- _Cached_ (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:49xlH-xmtYoJ:skyvington.blogspot. com/2009/02/lord-and-his-lady.html+These+families+count+amongst+their+ancest ors+powerful+clan+chieftains,+..&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) Feb 13, 2009 – These families count amongst their ancestors powerful clan chieftains, extraordinary political leaders and monarchs and yet in. Virginia all ...

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Donnachaidh Clan Families (Septs) *Collier* *Colyear* *Connochie* *Conochie * *Cunnison* *Dobbie* *Dobbin* *Dobie* *Dobieson* *Dobinson* *Dobson* *Donachie* *Donachy* *Duncan* *Duncanson* *Dunnachie* *Hobson* *Inches* *Kynoch* *MacConachie* *MacConchie* *MacConechy* *MacConich* *MacConnochie* *MacCullich* *MacDonachie* *MacGlashan* *MacInroy* *MacIver* *MacIvor* *MacJames* *MacLagan* *MacOnachie* *MacRobbie* *MacRobert* *MacRoberts* *MacRobie* *MacWilliam* *Read* *Reed* *Reid* *Robbie* *Roberts* *Robertson* *Robison* *Robson* *Roy* *Stark* *Tonnochy* To Read New Articles click this button :<http://www.donnachaidh.com/Current%20News.html> 1. Messages from the Council Chairman 2. Instructions for submitting subscriptions/membership dues 3. Journey Home Consultant 4. New International Vice Chairperson 5. New Tartan last updated: 3 March, 2011 http://www.donnachaidh.com/

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/clandonnachaidh/default.aspx?section=ycolorized SET results to 1000. There are not that many results, however, well over 750 and growing all the time. The results of this project are similar to those of other large projects -- Currently M222 results project wide somewhere around 100 or slightly under 1/7th of the published results. Up until DNA this clan like all others considered Surnames as chosen, acquired, or changed as the classification for belonging. Only the leadership was blood related, or attempted to be. If you read the candid summary of history previously posted one sees that they honestly state the histories are a bit murky (as most scribed oral histories are); however, the Clan does attempt to eek out the probable(s) and has embraced DNA to assist in the process. Will we ever really know the entire truth? Probably not. Theories are suggested, suggestions made which generally are revised over time as new discoveries and/or theories are launced.

Clan Donnachaidh Robertson * Reid * Duncan Origins of Clan Donnachaidh Abbot Crinan of Dunkeld, descended from the kindred of St. Columba, was father of Duncan, King of Scots. He was killed by MacBeth but his descendants held the throne for two and a half centuries. The king had a younger son Maelmare who became Earl of Atholl and was the ancestor of the Chiefs of Clan Donnachaidh. The chiefs are numbered from *Duncan the Stout* (stout in battle rather than in belly) who lived in the 1300s. He held lands in Rannoch and around Glen Errochty and took his followers to fight at Bannockburn in 1314 in support of his friend, King Robert The Bruce. His son Robert (perhaps called after Bruce) inherited land from his own mother and his estate ran from the edge of the Grampians to the gates of Perth. *Origin of the Name Robertson* In 1437 the chief *Robert Riach* (grizzled) captured Sir Robert Graham who, with others, had just murdered the King James I at Perth. In reward James II gave Robert a charter in which all of his lands were made into a feudal barony giving him administrative control over them. The barony was called Struan and the chief was henceforth known as *Robertson (from this Robert) of Struan* *In Support of the Stuart Kings* Successive chiefs led the clan through the intermittent turmoil of 15th and 16th century Atholl. In the 17th century the Highlands were drawn into national history in support of the Stuart Kings. In 1644 the Clan fought with Montrose and never lost a battle. The clan regiment was in evidence again in 1653, 1689, 1715, and 1745. The last three dates mark the Jacobite risings, in all of which *Alexander Robertson of Struan*, the Poet Chief <file:///C:%5CUsers%5CB%20&%20C%5CDesktop%5CDocuments%5Cdonnachaidh19%5CPoet%20Chief.htm>, took part. *The Breakdown of the Clan System* After the Battle of Culloden, estates owned by Jacobites were forfeited and run by the government until 1784 when they were returned -- along with the old debts. But the clan system had been destroyed and chiefs found it increasingly difficult to make a living. Our chiefs did not evict clansmen and no clearances took place on their estate, but in 1853 our chief sold Struan and Dunalastair, leaving only Rannoch. He moved to a new house at Dall but sold that in 1861. In 1926 the last land in Rannoch was sold. By then the chiefship had passed to a branch of the family who, about 1800, had emigrated to make a living in Jamaica. Now the chief is back, and the clan once more owns land in Atholl. In 730 AD Angus McFergus, King of the Picts, ousted the Moraemar or petty king of Atholl and and took it over as a royal possession. It must have been one of the first Pictish kingdoms to be infiltrated by the Scots for the name itself derives from Flota, meaning New Ireland, first appearing in the Annals of Ulster in 739. A century later, in 848 the Scot Kenneth MacAlpine was able to claim the crown of both peoples, forming the nucleus of modern Scotland and he set up his capital at Dunkeld to which he moved the 200 year-old college of Dull. /Brooch2/ /Dated as 9th century, this silver brooch was Found at the Pictish Palace, near Aldclune during the building of the A9. / Malcolm II who died in 1034 was the last of the direct male line from Kenneth. His daughter married Crinan, lay abbot of Dunkeld and male heir to the Celtic earls of Atholl. Their son was king Duncan, famously murdered by Macbeth who was in turn killed by Malcolm Canmore. The latter's second son Malcolm fathered the 2nd Earl of Atholl. The 3rd earl's eldest son predeeased his father and his granddaughters carried the earldom out of the old royal line but his second son was Conan whose name appears on charters soon after 1200 receiving grants of land in Glen Errochty. And he passed his Highland Perthshire lands to his descendants. Duncan de Atholia is considered the first chief of Clan Donnachaidh and confusion has attached itself to his ancestry. Up until the 19th century the Clan and everyone else knew that he was descended in the male line from the Lords of the Isles, progenitors of Clan Donald. This is stated in the oldest sources of both Clan Donald and Clan Donnachaidh. Then, in the 1830s, the Historiographer Royal for Scotland, William Skene, came to the conclusion that Duncan was descended in the male line from Conan, male descendant of the last Celtic Earl of Atholl, and not from Somerled, and so inherited his estates directly rather than through marriage. Skene had found a charter mentioning Andrew de Atholia as father of Duncan who was not mentioned in the traditional pedigrees and from this and the absence of reference to the Island kindred in Duncan's coat of arms, he decided that the accepted lineage was wrong. But Duncan the 14th chief, wrote on this subject a good sixty years before Skene and he pointed out that the old oral 'genealogies may be and actually are very much abridged.' He did not know of Andrew de Atholia but would have found nothing unusual about his omission from the traditional pedigree. The chief's coat of arms incorporates three wolf's heads. /DuncanArms / / Arms of Duncan, the first chief / However on an early seal St Columba is enthroned on a couple of wolves and the supporters of the chief's arms are a serpent and dove which again suggests descent from the Kindred of St Columba. And it has been speculated that wolves featured on the arms of the old earls of Atholl. But the kindred of the Columba also married into the kindred of the Isles, so the wolf, the dove and serpent could have come through this route. It looked unlikely that Duncan's descent could ever be proved. But a new clue came with the arrival of DNA testing which showed that the chief's line shared a strong similarity to the DNA of those who descend from Niall of the Nine Hostages, a High King of Ireland who died about 405. This would indicate a descent from the old Celtic earls of Atholl, who were descendants of the kings of Dalriada, Scotti from Ireland, and not from Somerled. Then, in 2006, the researcher Gordon MacGregor was asked to take a look at the origins of the clan and his examination of previously unconsidered charters turned up the vital evidence which he reported in the 2007 Clan Donnachaidh Annual. He discovered that the lands of Struan, the Clan Donnachaidh chiefs' lands and barony in Atholl, had originally been carved out of the earldom of Atholl and bundled with the Lude estate as Clunes. And that these lands could only descend in the male line. The likely line of ancestral ownership, for good if complex reasons, went Duncan -- Andrew -- Madach of Clunes -- Duncan -- Malcolm, 2nd Earl of Atholl. Andrew of Atholl was a comparatively junior member of the family but he had a son, Duncan. A charter showed that Ewan of Glenerochie, the holder of that part of the estate, had only daughters. On Ewan's death, they were able to inherit some of his lands, but Struan could only be passed to the heir-male and went to Duncan. It seems probable that Conan, Ewan's father was a cousin of Madach. Ewan was the last male descendant of Henry, the 3rd Earl of Atholl. Henry had two brothers -- Malcolm and Duncan -- and it is most likely that Duncan was Madach's father. Although the precise descent of the Clan has still to be confirmed. it is certain that the chiefs were the male heirs to the old Celtic earls of Atholl and thus have the oldest certifiable ancestry of any family in Scotland. This new information has created complications. In the 19th and 20th centuries, history was subordinated to clan pride. This was not an exclusive problem for the Clan Donnachaidh but in most cases it did not matter. So foggy are the origins of many of the clans that there is only the very faintest likelihood of real history rising up to contradict the fanciful stories of times of yore. So the Clan Donnachaidh is both fortunate in discovering the reality of its foundations, and unfortunate because these demonstrate that some of the tales circulated for centuries about our earliest heroes cannot be true. Perhaps the prime loser in this is Stout Duncan -- Duncan de Atholia -- who has been considered the founder of the clan and close friend of King Robert Bruce. However it now seems more probable that the Dunchad or Duncan who founded the clan was the brother of Earl Henry and great-grandfather of Stout Duncan. By claiming descent from him, the clan would be demonstrating their descent from the Earls of Atholl and thus proving their potent local origins to incoming Menzies and Stewart landowners. It would also make some sense of the old story that the chief of the clan turned down the offer of the earldom of Atholl in preference for a charter of Struan in 1451. The offer would not have been made but it might show a long-standing boast of the clan's descent and position as recognised heirs-male of the Earls and therefore their rightful heirs. In the following chapter some of these old stories concerning Stout Duncan are re-told. Since it is now known that his date of birth was not 1275 as has been claimed, but much more likely to have been around 1305, it cannot have been Duncan who was involved with King Robert Bruce. It may have been his father Andrew, a shadowy figure. As a younger son and not a landholder in his own right, he only appears in history named in a single charter, but he was a contemporary with Bruce and, as part of the kinship group that controlled Atholl, it is very likely that he and his relatives played a part in the Wars of Independence. However Duncan has been allowed to remain as centre of the Clan's Bannockburn tradition. But a pinch of salt should be added to the mix, at least until the tales of his skirmishes with the Macdougalls and the discovery of the charm stone. These probably belong to history rather than legend. According to previous legend, Duncan was said to have been born in the year 1275, just in time to take part in the opening rounds of the War of Independence against the English. Traditionally William Wallace sought refuge in Atholl after his defeat at Falkirk in 1297. John Baliol was installed as Edward of England's puppet king in 1292 but his master removed him four years later for 'contumacy' leaving the country without a monarch. Bruce and the Red Comyn were rival claimants for the throne. At a meeting in the Franciscan priory at Dumfries in 1306, Bruce slew his opponent in front of the high altar. Alastair Macdougall, Lord of Lorne, was married to the dead man's aunt and therefore now had a blood-feud with Bruce. In 1306 Bruce was crowned at Scone and soon after was routed at the battle of Methven. He, his queen, and a few followers escaped into Atholl and, again according to legend, was received by Duncan. Duncan was thought to have had his stronghold in a castle on the island in Loch Tummel, which was submerged in 1950 when the loch was raised by five metres by a hydro-electric dam, and Bruce took refuge in the the Wood of Kynachan just a couple of miles to the west. A ford on the Tummel, now beneath Dunalastair Water, was the King's ford. The King's Hall was in the woods to the south and the Queen's Pool was a little further downstream. Strong tradition tells of an unrecorded battle between Lochs Tummel and Rannoch at this time. Innerhadden was where the battle started, Dalchosnie next door means field of fighting; Glen Sassunn is the glen of the southerners, the route taken by the enemy troops. The result was a victory thanks to the women of the Clan who supported their menfolk by filling stockings with stones and using them as clubs to devastating effect. With Clan Donnachaidh by his side, the king ventured west and was defeated at Dalrigh (the field of the king) near Tyndrum by the Macdougalls of Lorne and retired back to Strathtummel. In this battle the king lost the brooch with which he pinned his cloak and this is still in the possession of the victor's descendants. Eight years later the Clan went down to Bannockburn to fight alongside Bruce to defeat the English and make him undisputed king of Scots. Bannockburn, of course, is the seminal battle in the fight for Scots independence from England. As a result every clan wishes to claim that it was part of Bruce's army. The earliest written reference to the participation of the clans seems not come until 1822, when the historian David Stewart of Garth listed twenty one Highland chiefs that were there, but he gives no source for the information. There is strong logic that Clan Donnachaidh would have been at Bannockburn. As well as logic, there is tradition that supports this. Clan Donnachaidh is said to have been a little late for the conflict, and were part of the contingent that came down from Gillies Hill at the decisive moment of the battle and these reinforcements tipped the balance in Bruce's favour. On the bare framework of this tradition an elaborate account of the Clan's involvement in the battle has been constructed which ends with the victorious king declaring 'Hitherto ye have been called the sons of Duncan, but henceforth ye shall be called my children.' This explanation of the origin of Robert-son as the Clan's primary surname actually predates its first use by well over a century. Brooch /The Brooch of Lorne, snatched from King Robert Bruce at the Battle of Dalrigh 1306 when he and Clan Donnachaidh lost to the Lords of Lorne. It is still in the possession of the Macdougalls of Dunollie/ The Clan had several more encounters with the Macdougalls. The only record of one was written down by Ewen Macdougall, Clerk to the Earl of Breadalbane at Taymouth, in the 1820s and describes the aftermath of a cattle raid or /creach/ against Clan Donnachaidh. The Macdougalls were tracked west and the two forces met in Glen Orchy 'where they fought bitterly, the Rannoch men were slain and their Chief fled with difficulty. The slain were buried and the cairns are still called Cairn nan Rannoch, or Rannoch Men's Cairns, and their arms cast into a small Loch near the Cairns called Lochan nan Arn.' It seems likely that this is a traditional local interpretation of Bruce's defeat at Tyndrum after which the losers' weapons were also said to have been thrown into the loch. If so, it would indicate that the bulk of Bruce's army were Clan Donnachaidh men, and that the ordinary Macdougall warriors were more pleased to have defeated them than the king. The monarch must have been a remote figure to most people, intent on consolidating his national position. Duncan's followers were local rivals against whom clashes must have been frequent. However with Duncan at its head the Clan was usually on the winning side. It is possible that his most famous meeting with the Macdougalls is an amalgam of several skirmishes, particularly since the date given by one source of 1338 would make him past his prime for legendary feats of agility. They sent an army into Atholl and Duncan, disguised as a beggar, entered the enemy camp to scout it out. His cover was penetrated and he had to flee for his life. He chopped down one of his pursuers and then jumped across the chasm of the river Errochty to escape. The spot is now beneath the dammed Loch Errochty so the distance, variously reported between 11 and 16 feet, cannot be confirmed. His Gaelic name Donnachd Reamhar (pronounced 'rav-ar') means literally Fat Duncan, but a gravitationally-challenged warrior in his mid-fifties is unlikely to have managed such a leap. 'Robust' or 'stout' would surely be a more accurate translation. Another of his sobriquets was Gaisgeach Mor Fea-Chorie - the great hero of Fea Corrie. The corrie, a remote cleft in the hills west of Trinafour, was the muster point for Duncan's warriors before any campaign. It, too, is submerged beneath Loch Errochty The battle was the following day. At first light, the chief's standard was pulled from the ground and with it came the Clach na Bratach - the Stone of the Standard. This snooker ball-sized globe of rock crystal is one of several charm stones to have survived. The Clach na Bratach is on display in the Museum at Bruar. That of the Stewarts of Ardvorlich is the Clach Dearig - the red stone. The Campbells of Glenlyon had one but theirs was given to them by a visiting 'wizard' in the 16th century, presumably part of his stock in trade. Such stones have been made and venerated in all cultures for millennia. They are to be occasionally found as grave goods in pagan Saxon burials and would have had religious or mystical significance in pre-Christian religion. But how one came to be in the wilds of Atholl can only be guessed at. Jir3a The above is excerpted from "The Robertsons, Clan Donnachaidh in Atholl" by James Irvine Robertson. If you would like to order the book, go to www.librario.com <http://www.librario.com> Top of Page <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Clan%20History.html> Home <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Donnachaidh.com/index.html> * Current News <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Donnachaidh.com/Current%20News.html> * Youth Program <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Youth.html> * Contact Us <http://www.donnachaidh.com/ContactUs.html> * The Society <http://www.donnachaidh.com/Society.html>

There is a Mark McConchie in my cluster who has an ancestor named James McConchie who was born abt. 1793 in Dumfries Scotland. The ysearch ID of Mark McConchie is KAGHA. Most of the rest of the people in my cluster do not know if their ancestors were native Irish or Ulster Scots. My cluster is at: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/McConchie.htm

I was looking for other Scottish family names that where M222+ and knew where they where from. I found a number of Fergusons that where M222+ and they where from Perthshire. (The M222+ Fergusons give either of two origins Perthshire or NW Ireland (home to the O'Fergus).) I am also still troubled with the M222+ and M222- Robertsons from Perthshire, however I find the Septs of the Fergusons of Atholl include the McRoberts: "Several of the Fergusson families in the district were distinguished by patronymics, which were after a time accepted as surnames. The Fergussons of Woodhill in Strathardle from the eldest son being always named Adam were called McAdie,’’ and the Fergussons in Glenbrierachan from the eldest son being named Angus were known as M’Angus, which has been softened into McInnes. In Glenfernate the Fergussons were known as McRobert or McRobie from the eldest son heir named ‘ Robert.All the extensive Fergusson properties in Atholl are now in other hands, with the exception of Dunfallandy and Baledmund." http://www.visitdunkeld.com/atholl-family.htm Is M222+ native (during the medieval period) to Perthshire? and if so which families? From: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [R-M222] Check out History - Irish - Scottish Roots - The McConachy Clan Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:18:51 +0000 The former Albany Herald, Sir Iain Moncreiffe, wrote that the Robertson of Struan where from Cenel Conaill (he suggests Cineal Lugdach 'in Scotland', sames branch as O'Boyles and O'Dohertys, chiefs of Arda Midhair) of the northern Ui Neill. Tracing Clan Donnchaidh from the Comarba of Colmcille, i.e. the church family that held Dunkeld, Iona, Kells and Derry. Sir Moncreiffe tells that Robertsons decend from: Conan son of Henry Earl of Atholl, son of Malcolm Earl of Atholl, son of Madadh Earl of Atholl, son of Duncan I King of Scotland, son of Crinan Abbot of Dunkeld of the Kindred of St Columba. However following Sir Moncreiffe chart then we would expect MacDuff, Wemyss, Abernethy (negative) and Clan Chattan families also to be M222+. Plus the ancestors of Duncan I's brother Maldred, i.e. Dundas (negative), Moncrieffe, Dunbars (possible), Grey (unlikely), Washington (?) and Nevill. I should also point out a sizable portion of the Robertsons from Perthshire are not M222, so who are they?

From: _GAshley923@aol.com_ (mailto:GAshley923@aol.com) Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] We have commonalties. Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 08:39:27 EST Gene Ashley a southern born R1B1C7 say's The mere fact you reading this shows we have commonalities I have not figured out why I have such a huge passion for genealogy My curiosity drives me .forward or is it backwards Y-DNA helped me find my living ancestors Y-chromes a Scientific trail of paternal ancestors??dead people don't provide DNA (got a shovel) Paper trails end in burned courthouses .If you are lucky enough to have southern colonial province roots most likely you have two hundred years of war torn, under educated poverty,.One generation past the outhouse and one generation into College educated decedents. My Atlantic Seaboard ancestors had money and were educated in England the revolution ended that and started a backwards trend but.the south is rising again.. Gene. **************************************

-----Original Message----- From: GAshley923@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:12:38 EDT Subject: Ashley Barony, South Carolina 1670 To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net Hi Susan DNA does not lie ,so we are some how we are distant cousins I see you have a great passion for genealogy, so don't be so hard on me. I can keep up you with research of the clans .Ashley is known as the Ash tree dwellers .In the south we were gone with wind I am related to the Ashley of Wilkes county Georgia thus Ashley Wilkes in Gone with the wind fiction of course on purpose .. There are several lines of Ashley's my search previously pointed out some lines have had relations with Duncan on multiplex occasions; I have been doing research on my family for over fifty years without speculation and conjecture Sorry to disappoint you on your Ashley research my line of Ashley' Owned large plantations in South Carolina 'Georgia and Florida were British subjects until England traded Florida for the Bahamas I live in Gainesville Florida rent my commercial real estate to other business by the square ft . one is a Regions Bank . I don't like to ramble on unless I have I have just cause and usually do anyway... happy hunting leave you gun home Gene _King Charles II_ (http://www.ricehope.com/history/KingCharles2.htm) issued a_ land grant_ (http://www.ricehope.com/history/LandGrants.htm) to his Lord ProprietorsCarolina, as defined by the Charters of 1663 and 1665, extended from coast to coast. North and South Carolina did not become separate colonies until about 1710. The colony was governed by representatives they appointed. Lord Ashley Cooper was the most energetic supporter of the ventureIn 1675 the Coosa Indians surrendered to the English a large tract of land which constituted Ashley Barony, and in 1682 what appears to have been a still more sweeping land cession was signed by several of the Cusabo chiefs. In 1693 there was another short war, this time between the Whites and the Stono. A body of Cusabo accompanied Colonel Barnwell in his expedition against the Tuscarora in 1711-12, and this fact may have quickened the consciences of the colonists somewhat, because in 1712 the Island of Palawana, "near the Island of St. Helena," was granted to them. It appears that most of their plantations were already upon it but it had inadvertently been granted to a white proprietor. The Cusabo here mentioned were those of the southern group; there is reason to think that the Kiawa and Coosa were not included. Early in 1720 "King Gilbert and ye Coosaboys" took part in Col. John Barnwell's punitive expedition against St. Augustine (Barnwell, 1908). In 1743 the Kiawa were given a grant of land south of the Combahee River, probably to be near the other coast Indians. Part of the Coosa may have retired to the Catawba, since Adair (1930) mentions "Coosah" as one of the dialects spoken in the "Catawba Nation," but others probably went to the Creeks. At least one band of Cusabo may have gone to Florida, because, in "A List of New Indian Missions in the Vicinity of St. Augustine," dated December 1, 1726, there is mention of a mission of San Antonio "of the Cosapuya nation and other Indians" containing 43 recently converted Christians and 12 pagans.

MR DONALD ALEXZANDER MACINTIRE another DNA match with Gashley _The Origin of the Ancient Clan Maclntyre_ (http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/macintyre/Origins%20of%20the%20Clan%20MacIntyre%20v2.pdf) The MacIntyre's are an ancient and Royally Blooded Clan of the Gael, being both ... Righs to ever rule over Eirinn, the great Nial of The Nine Hostages, who ... www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/macintyre/Origins%20of%20the%20C... - _Similarto The Origin of the Ancient Clan Maclntyre _ (http://aolsearcht7.search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=ma cintyre `nial of the nine hostages&q=related:www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/macintyre/Origins%20of%20the%20Clan%20MacIntyre%20v2.pdf+macintyre `nial of the nine hostages) * _Clan/Family Histories_ (http://www.rampantscotland.com/clans/clans_index.htm) MacIntyre. The clan chief emigrated to America. Mackay Initially e stablished in ... Said to be descended from "Niall of the Nine Hostages" a king of Tara in Ireland ... www.rampantscotland.com/clans/clans_index.htm - _Similarto Clan/Family Histories _ (http://aolsearcht7.search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=macintyre `nial of the nine hostages&q=related:www.rampantscotland.com/clans/clans_index.htm+macintyre `nial of the nine hostages) * _Scottish Research_ (http://www.hughpeskett.co.uk/005SCOT/SCOT.HTM) MacIntyre of Glenoe ... Another son of Niall of the Nine Hostages was Conall Gulban, king of Tir Conaill (Tyrconnell, Donegal) and great-grandfather of St ... www.hughpeskett.co.uk/005SCOT/SCOT.HTM - _Similarto Scottish Research _ (http://aolsearcht7.search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=clie nt_searchbox&o_q=macintyre `nial of the nine hostages&q=related:www.hughpeskett.co.uk/005SCOT/SCOT.HTM+macintyre `nial of the nine hostages) * _Genealogy Links Library, Family Surname Web Sites - Mca to Mcz_ (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry. com/~genealogylinks/surnm/fam/Mfs/Mfs_mca-mcz.html) ... and one of the two sons of Niall of the Nine Hostages, who gave his name to Tir Conaill, ... Spelling Variants (McIntire, MacIntire, MacIntyre, McIntier, McIntyre). ... freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genealogylinks/surnm... - _Similarto Genealogy Links Library, Family Surname Web Sites - Mca to Mcz _ (http://aolsearcht7.search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client _searchbox&o_q=macintyre `nial of the nine hostages&q=related:freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genealogylinks/surnm/fam/Mfs/Mfs_mca-mcz.html+m acintyre `nial of the nine hostages) * _CULTURE/HISTORY - Buncrana, Inishowen, County Donegal, Ireland_ (http://visitbuncrana.com/culture.php) Sons of Niall of the Nine Hostages establishes the northern Uí Néill dynasties, giving their names to Tír Chonaill, Tír Eoghan and Inishowen. C1350. The rise of ... visitbuncrana.com/culture.php - _Similarto CULTURE/HISTORY - Buncrana, Inishowen, County Donegal, Ireland _ (http://aolsearcht7.search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=macintyre `nial of the nine hostages&q=related:visitbuncrana.com/culture.php+macintyre `nial of the nine hostages) * _Glennoe Publishing_ (http://www.glennoe.com/sixmillennia.html) Nial of The Nine Hostages * The Kingdom of Dal Riada ... He is a longtime member of Clan MacIntyre Association, and S.C.O.T., the Scottish Club of Tulsa. ... www.glennoe.com/sixmillennia.html - _Similarto Glennoe Publishing _ (http://aolsearcht7.search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_s earchbox&o_q=macintyre `nial of the nine hostages&q=related:www.glennoe.com/sixmillennia.html+macintyre `nial of the nine hostages) * _single page - Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage - 107th ..._ (http://www.exacteditions.com/exact/browse/572/971/6081/3/53) Another son of Niall of the Nine Hostages was Conall Gulban, King of Tir ... In a typical case, economic necessity forced the MacIntyre Chief to emigrate to ... www.exacteditions.com/exact/browse/572/971/6081/3/53 - _Similarto single page - Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage - 107th ... _ (http://aolsearcht7.search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox& o_q=macintyre `nial of the nine hostages&q=related:www.exacteditions.com/exact/browse/572/971/6081/3/53+macintyre `nial of the nine hostages) * _World Families Forums - Welcome to the R1b and Subclades ..._ (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8237.0) Sep 4, 2011 ... My results came back and my results say that I match the Niall of Nine Hostages modal group. Most of my matches are from Northern Ireland ... www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8237.0 - _Similarto World Families Forums - Welcome to the R1b and Subclades ... _ (http://aolsearcht7.search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=mac intyre `nial of the nine hostages&q=related:www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8237.0+macintyre `nial of the nine hostages)

In a message dated 9/19/2011 4:06:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, astronautix@gmail.com writes: Aside from the fact that this whole Niall thing has been pretty well discredited recently, the issue here is that I have a solid match with the 'Niall' 25-marker modal haplotype in ysearch but it all falls apart when extended to 37-markers. Do you have a Ysearch ID? I don't see your sample in the M222 project. There's no way to evaluate your statement that the match "falls apart" at 37 markers without one. Missing the M222 modal at 37 markers by 10 or more isn't unusual in the project. <Aside from the fact that this whole Niall thing has been pretty well discredited recently, It's only been discredited in the sense that we do not think all M222 descend directly from Niall. The Niall emphasis in the testing outfits is more a marketing gimmick than anything else. There's plenty of evidence that many of the septs in Ireland said to descend from Niall are M222. You can read all the relevant Trinity collegearticles on the M222 web site. Not knowing the ultimate origins of an SNP group is common to every other major project I've seen. The Irish Type III cluster (Dal Cais) has Irish, Scottish and English matches and no one has the slightest idea why. Dennis Wright runs the project. He thinks his name is Scottish and can't figure out why he's linked to the O'Brien Irish Kings of Thomnd in Ireland.. If there's an answer to that it's probably lost in the miss of time. That's also true of the Leinster cluster. Here you also find lots of matches in Ireland and Scotland with some in England as well. One of their major mysteries is why a large group of Beattys in lowland Scotland match up withe the Kavanagh, Kinesella and O'Byrne chieftains of Leinster. John

I've done a bit of study on the genetic connections among McConnaughey, Duncan & Ashley From what I've been able to assess, the most recent connection is between Ashley & Duncan, and this may have occurred on the side of the pond. That's not totally definitive, but there is I believe an exact match with one Duncan and one Ashley -- I believe this is what that Mr. Duncan told me. I'm not certain how many markers, however. The genetic distance between McC & Duncan and McC & Ashley are far enough apart that our relatedness would go back to a common progenitor probably no more recently than at least 300 years or more, and likely more. Our McCs have been in this country for about 257 years (were in Ulster probably 100 years previous to immigration), Scotland previous to the Ulster Plantation, and if the M222 business correct progenitors in Ireland previous to Scotland. Our test subject is 7th generation here and was born in 1939. I have found absolutely no Duncan or Ashley connections with- in any of the McC of the surname, allied, or collateral families I know for certain were/are tied to ours. This isn't to say that there isn't one with a family I don't know about or if it happened in recent years among families which are not documented because of dispersal, years and distance. The close matches of our McCs with Duncan suggest that those Duncan & our McCs had a common progenitor in Scotland, and I suspect one connection goes back to Isle of Bute. That said, there are older possibilities as well. If I am not mistaken, Ashley were from English stock. Connection with Duncan could possibly go back to England if a Duncan migrated there and some did during the potato famine years. Most of the Duncan matches are showing many of those Duncan descending from or related in some manner to Duncan that were on this side of the pond early 1700's (before the potato famine) and before our McC's. It isn't a finite thing, however because no one really knows where the connection is. The connection could come from relatives of relatives who may not have even known they were related that no one knows about. As a wise sage BH has suggested, Genetics cannot make a lineage -- it can only show genetic relatedness *but will not tell us who or necessarily what the relationship, when, where or how. *Yes, James McC was the oldest son of David & Jane Platt McC. He has an estimated birth year of about 1745/7, but no documents before immigration. There are many land records, some genealogies -- some better than others, etc, and he was in the Rev. War with documentation. His descendant lineage up until recent years was fairly well documented This account Mr. Ashley sent isn't totally accurate as they missed John being one of the immigrants. There were actually 4 boys and a girl who immigrated from Ireland (Ulster) sailing from Derry to settle in PA with their parents David & Jane. They were: James, David Jr. Elizabeth, Robert, and John (b. about 1754 Ireland -- in Ohio with son and documented on 1850 census at 96 years of age); two girls and a boy born PA -- Jane, Mary and Francis. Francis didn't marry -- died of illness on way back from New Orleans where he & one of the brothers (I think it was John, but I'd have to check -- I'm at work where I am most of the time) walked the trail there and back. Robert disappeared and it is possible that he is the same Robert McC who married Margaret Storey -- descendant of this union are presently DNA testing to prove or disprove. David Jr. Died in the war of 1812 near Lake Erie and his widow Margaret Davidson received a land grant in MO which she did nothing with -- David & Margaret's son, David Platt McC (married Catherine Thomson) found the land which had been squatted on, settled with the squatter for improvements and sold it to him after he bought out his sisters of their share. David Platt McC went to Iowa where he farmed. John went to Ohio where he farmed and raised his family. James stayed in PA. There is also a David Platt McC born into his lineage as well, but later than the David Platt above. We have no records from Ireland. We have found trails for these McCs & Platts in Donegal and very west Derry adjacent. We are certain there must be some church records somewhere; however the parishes they would have attended are no longer and no one seems to know where the parish registers are. Could have been destroyed in the fire in Dublin during the 1920's. Many if most records in Ireland previous to then went the way of the fire which is why everyone has such a hard time doing genealogy there. We suspect David the immigrant's father was named James, and we have found some potential James in the existing records in the right place at the right time; however with out baptisms or other records etc. can't claim it on a guess. We suspect Jane's father was Robert Platt, and the same holds true for establishing that firmly -- right time, right place but no other supporting records. If I recall both Ashley & Duncan have VIrginia and the Carolina's in common, and I've believe I've seen migration also into KY, TN among other environs commonly. There was one related McC branch that also went VA & the Carolina's, but I've found no connection in the genealogies to suggest either Duncan or Ashley connection there. I wish I could find it. I've looked hard. I know some Duncan & Ashley have also looked hard. Perhaps with continued testing of those who carry the surname something will reveal itself, although I'm not terribly optimistic. I'm rather certain that the Duncan/McC connection goes back to Scotland, and that puts that relatedness over 300 years and likely farther, perhaps as far back as 1,400 years or more -- according to FTDNA 99.9% 700 years ago -- thats about 1239 AD if one takes into consideration the age of our test subject. I have taken cursory looks at the genealogies of the other McC's who also have matches. Have found nothing in their genealogies either to show a connection. Susan * *

Yes, once you have any higher level set of markers the lower level ones are of much less use - from the company's point of view they mainly serve to lure you into upgrades. I think you have to match 33/37 or better to show under the 37 marker category matches. Personally I would prefer that people took the M222 test for the defining SNP for our group. Then the other issue you are getting at namely whether you 'match' the haplotype simply goes away. Also this way we can make useful discoveries about the pre-M222 population rather than just assume we are all in M222 because of our STR markers. Iain Kennedy ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 11:05:07 +0200 > From: astronautix@gmail.com > To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Meaning of 25-marker matches vs 37-no matches > > I tested M222 with 23andme and had previously had a 37-marker result > from ftdna. Recently ftdna started putting a 'Niall of the Nine > Hostages' graphic on my ftdna page. > > Aside from the fact that this whole Niall thing has been pretty well > discredited recently, the issue here is that I have a solid match with > the 'Niall' 25-marker modal haplotype in ysearch but it all falls > apart when extended to 37-markers. > > Similarly, my ftdna matches in 25-markers show some 100% or 1 or 2 > distance matches with individuals who have had 37 or 67-marker tests > but these individuals don't show up in the 37-dys matches. I presume > this means that there are so many differences at 37-markers that they > don't even come close to being listed - meaning the 25-marker results > are meaningless? > > Shouldn't ftdna not even list these 12-, 25- matches if it falls apart > at the 37 level? > > -- > Mark Wade > astronautix@gmail.com > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message