Crinan was descended from the Tir Conaill royalty of Ireland, in descent from the kin of St. Columba. He was a great chief, and wielded power equal to the Mormears; he was Thane of the Isles and Abthane of Dull. His father was Duncan Macdonachadh, Abbot of Dunkeld, Archpriest of the Kindred of St. Columba. His Arms consisted of St. Columba enthroned on two wolves. In the Orkeyinua Saga he is called Hundi Jarl Chief of the Dogs, being Chief of the Clan with the fighting qualities of the Wolf. When attack on Dunkeld by Vikings could no longer be avoided he had the bones of St. Columba, which had been kept in Dunkeld Cathedral since 835, moved to safety. The Vikings attacked and sacked Dunkeld in 1045 and Crinan died trying in vain to save the cathedral, >From article on web by Bill Robertson <mailto:bcrobertson@gwi.net> , International Vice Chairman, Clan Donnachaidh www.electricscotland.com/webclans/ntor/rarticles1.html

> Iain, I think there may be a difference between "royal" lines in Scotland > based on primogeniture and the derbhfine system in Ireland. I can see any > one "royal" line dying out - but not so much a system based on cousins. The idea of a Scottish derbhfine system is the basis of G.A. MacGregor 2006 justification of Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl. I learn from G.A. MacGregor that in medieval Scotland there was land deemed heritable only in the male line, i.e., could not be passed by marriage, but held by derbhfine. It is through the continued ownership of Glenerochie that G.A. MacGregor makes the case for Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl http://design15.clickstay.net/supplement/Mag2007.pdf

Doug, I noticed some O'Morrison's in the 1609 Pardon lists from the rebellions in Ulster and thought of you and your quest to learn about Irish O'Morrisons. I also found my own surname (Lane) in there as well. It was listed mostly as "O'Lane. (maybe from O'Luain?)"   http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-State_Papers_1601.html What surprised me is when I looked at the surnames in that list I found that I have many fairly close M-222 matches with the those surnames, such as Gallagher, Dogherty, McLaughline, and O'Neill..It certainly makes me believe my Lane's were from that part of Northern Ireland as well before coming to Virginia in the 1750's. They must have converted to the Presbyterian faith sometime in the 1600's while in Ulster. I've found another Lane in lives Belfast who has taken the DNA test through FTDNA. I'm hoping that his results are M-222 as well.  Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "tuulen" <tuulen@gmail.com> To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net, dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 6:02:28 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] new thread Clans & membeship Susan, "All members of any Scottish clan will not be related genetically." I had to laugh when I read that, for that fits my situation exactly. Although I can trace my father's family back to Co. Armagh in the late 18th century, for many years I had simply assumed that the family had at some time migrated there from somewhere in Scotland, an easy assumption to make as my name is Morrison.  My research, however, quickly discovered a very tangled Morrison history in Scotland and so, realizing that I needed expert help, I contacted the Morrison Society of North America.  Well, it turned out that the MSNA is promoting DNA testing because the Morrison name had been popularly adopted over centuries of time by at least several different families who were NOT genetically related to each other, and DNA could help to identify just which of those ancient Morrison families one of today's Morrisons could come from.  That seemed quite reasonable, and so that is how I got involved with DNA testing. But it turned out that I am NOT genetically related to ANY of the Scottish Morrisons!  Huh?  What?  My name is Morrison.  Well, after some study, it turns out that there was an ancient Irish family which eventually adopted the Morrison name, and apparently that is the family which I could belong to although I have not been able to make a "paper trail" connection, but it seems a reasonable assumption. Back when Gaelic names were being Anglicized, the Scottish name Mac Ghille Mhoire became Anglicized following a translation and so Mary's son became Morrison, but could you guess why the Irish name O'Muirgheasain also became O'Mrisane, O'Murison and Morrison? Let me add that I do have a 35/37 match with another Morrison, and he traces his family to Ulster, too. Doug On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > > One quote that is among my favorites is, "Genealogy:Where you confuse > the dead and irritate the living." > > I think it  should be differentiated the difference between genetic > heritage after surnames and clan surnames in regard to membership with > in the Scottish Clans. > > I think it also a good suggestion that the entire history as presented > by Clan Donnachaidh be read and digested as it is very clear that many > of the remarks posted are based on not a thorough and complete reading > of what they say about themselves in regard to all of their chiefs, the > work they are endeavoring, and some of the tentative discoveries they > believe they are making with the help of Skene, Moncreiffe, and MacGregor. > > All members of any Scottish clan will not be related genetically.  This > goes back to surname designations and use.  The Chiefdom if you will was > the only area where blood line inheritance meant anything, and they did > try to keep track of that.  Whether or not they were entirely successful > and/or whether or not the descendants were fully aware is another matter. > > The fact that with in most clans there are M222 lineages should be > suggestive.  There are varying opinions on the matter, and few agree > 100% with one another 100% of the time.  And who is knowledgeable enough > in this group to have the all answers? > > I can tell you straight out, none of us do.  One person's opinion is no > less valid than the next and this should be evident when even the > supposed experts can't agree.  For crying out loud -- the fire hydrants > are losing their red paint. > > It is no freaking wonder that the Irish and the Scots were bloody > warring among themselves and each other most of their collective histories. > > And while we are on that subject of M222, just because it has been > tagged, no one knows what the heck Nial's dna was either. > > You know I keep holding out some hope that this group is really going to > work at this project rather than the P flying all the time.  I will not > apologize for my tantrum here. Some of you really need to behave > yourselves.  Susan > > > > > > > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message  R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 9/23/2011 7:17:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: The idea of a Scottish derbhfine system is the basis of G.A. MacGregor 2006 justification of Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl. I learn from G.A. MacGregor that in medieval Scotland there was land deemed heritable only in the male line, i.e., could not be passed by marriage, but held by derbhfine. It is through the continued ownership of Glenerochie that G.A. MacGregor makes the case for Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl http://design15.clickstay.net/supplement/Mag2007.pdf That was an interesting article by MacGregor. He basically follows Skene with a few modifications. This statement also occurs in the clan magazine. "‘It may be that there is some connection between the chiefly line and people with Niall-type results in Perthshire...perhaps it would be possible to identify immigration associated with the Columban monastic foundations (very much speculation). The Niall-type results are probably the main set of results that bring the three main surnames together: the groups that have the best matches with the chiefly line are Robertson and Duncan Niall-type results.’" I agree with the "very much speculation" statement by a clan spokesperson. Based on this 2007 publication they did not have a chieftain tested at the time. MacGregor begins with: "In reality very few positive steps forward have actually been taken in determining the male ancestry of the Clan mainly due to the lack of documentary evidence at hand." MacGregor actually describes a dual system of land inheritance, the first of which is clearly based on primogeniture. There aren't any female heirs in a derbhfine system. "The Lands of Glenerochie Destination played a vital role within the feudal system and its purpose was to define and stipulate the rules by which lands were allowed to be conveyed heritably. There were two basic categories: • The lands would be held by the heirs of the founder 2 whatsoever. This permitted the lands to pass to the closest heir of the last possessor, whether male or female. 3 • The lands would be held by the heirs-male whatsoever of the founder. This stipulated that lands could only be transferred to the closest representative in the male line. This could be a son, a brother, a cousin, or in certain instances, a very remote male relation. MacGregor labels the descent from Crinan a credible assumption. That was Skene's theory. "A credible assumption is that the Clan descends in some way from the original Earls of Atholl who descend from Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld, through his son King Duncan I. whose subsequent Royal dynasty ended in the male line on the tragic death of King Alexander III at Kinghorn in 1282." I can buy that. Now what I would like to see is analysis of the DNA. I know there is a large group of Duncans who match McConnachies. There is a second group of M222 Duncans from Scotland who do not match. There's also a second group of McConchies who do not match. These are the McConchies Lawrence Dill is working on linked because of a possible ReCLOH at YCA11ab. The DNA is listed on the M222 web site. Each of these surnames apparently have two different unrelated M222 origins. I took a cursory look at the Robertson DNA. There's lots of M222 there. But I did not see any that matched the Duncan/McConnachie cluster. I do not yet know how well they match each other. There are a few M222 Reids. But none that I thougth were a good match to the Duncans/McConachies. A few share the 385=11-12 with the group but miss at other off modal markers. In the next few days I'll try and capture all the Robertson samples from the web site. Wikipedia doesn't have much on Crinan. "Crínán of Dunkeld (died 1045) was the lay abbot of the diocese of Dunkeld, and perhaps the Mormaer of Atholl. Crínán was progenitor of the House of Dunkeld, the dynasty which would rule Scotland until the later 13th century. Crinán was married to Bethoc, daughter of King Malcolm II of Scotland (reigned 1005–1034). As Malcolm II had no son, the strongest hereditary claim to the Scottish throne descended through Bethóc, and Crinán's eldest son Donnchad I (reigned 1034–1040), became King of Scots. Some sources indicate that Malcolm II designated Duncan as his successor under the rules of tanistry because there were other possible claimants to the throne. Crinán's second son, Maldred of Allerdale, held the title of Lord of Cumbria. It is said that from him, the Earls of Dunbar, for example Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of Dunbar, descend in unbroken male line. Crinán was killed in battle in 1045 at Dunkeld. Sir Iain Moncreiffe argued he belonged to a Scottish sept of the Irish Cenél Conaill royal dynasty.[1]" Under Mormaer of Atholl, Wikipedia has: "The Mormaer of Earl of Atholl refers to a medieval comital lordship straddling the highland province of Atholl (Ath Fodhla), now in northern Perthshire. Atholl is a special Mormaerdom, because a King of Atholl is reported from the Pictish period. The only other two Pictish kingdoms to be known from contemporary sources are Fortriu and Circinn. Indeed, the early thirteenth century document known to modern scholars as the de Situ Albanie repeats the claim that Atholl was an ancient Pictish kingdom. In the eleventh century, the famous Crínán of Dunkeld may have performed the role of Mormaer. Royal connections continued with Máel Muire, who was the son of King Donnchad I, and the younger brother of Máel Coluim III mac Donnchada. Matad was perhaps the most famous of the Mormaers, fathering Harald Maddadsson, a notorious rebel of the Scottish King and perhaps the first Gael to rule Orkney as Earl of Orkney. The line of Máel Muire and Crínán came to an end when Forbhlaith, the daughter of Mormaer Henry married David de Hastings." Maybe M222 in Scotland came from a tribe of Picts? That could be a possibility if the Clan Donnachaid indeed descended from the ancient Earls of Atholl. John

I would also be interested in this vis-a-vis the Dunbars as both my paternal and maternal lineages include the Dunbars.   -- (Granuaile "Grace" Lythande O'Flanagan) http://www.facebook.com/granuaile1954 Year Thai Calendar: 2554 >________________________________ >From: Uncle Billy Dunbar <countryunplugged@aol.com> >To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 12:13 AM >Subject: Re: [R-M222] Crinan ancestry is subject to debate > >How does this effect the Dunbar's who trace thier linage back to Crinan >TheThane and are having several M222 show up? > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Robert Reid <rreid002@insight.rr.com> >To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:55 pm >Subject: [R-M222] Crinan ancestry is subject to debate > > >I have included the following to show that once established lines (many >in >Burkes Peerage) are wrong back to Crinan the Thane. Ian Kennedy has >mentioned Gordon MacGregor who is an excellent researcher.  There is >much >debate with many question marks. Thus M222 direct lineage is hard to >prove. >I have found that approximately 85% of Clan Donnachaidh is non M222. >Many >are Picts who were assimulated into the clan from the Perth >surroundings and >I1 varieties with Norse ancestry. All that can be really said is that >the >Earls of Atholl were collectively from the 'kindred of Columba' as >cited by >Moncreiffe and Skeene. > > > >In 2006, genealogy researcher Gordon MacGregor was asked to take a look >at >the origins of the clan and his examination of previously unconsidered >charters turned up the vital evidence which he reported in the 2007 Clan >Donnachaidh Annual. He discovered that the lands of Struan, the Clan >Donnachaidh chiefs' lands and barony in Atholl, had originally been >carved >out of the earldom of Atholl and bundled with the Lude estate as >Clunes. And >that these lands could only descend in the male line. The likely line of >ancestral ownership, for good if complex reasons, went Duncan - Andrew - >Madach of Clunes - Duncan - Malcolm, 2nd Earl of Atholl. > >    Andrew de Atholia, of Glenerocie, is the first verified male >ancestor of >the Clan Donnachaidh who is styled as father to Duncan de Atholia, in >documents in the first half of the 14th century. Tradition states that >he m. >the daughter and heiress of Angus de Glenerochie and whom he acquired >these >lands although this is not the case given that the destination of these >particular lands was to the heir-male exclusively therefore confirming a >male descent from the Earls of Atholl. He was the father of Duncan de >Atholia, 5th of Glenerochie. Duncan had charters for the land of >Discher and >Toyler from Duncan, Earl of Fife, in around 1343 AD and the lands of >Appin >of Dull from John, Bishop of Dunkeld, in Dec 1355 AD and in both of >which he >is styled as son of Andrew de Atholia. He succeeded to the lands of >Glenerochie and was an adherent of King Robert I with whom he fought at >the >battle of Bannockburn in Jun 1314 AD. He is said to have m. firstly to a >daughter of Malcolm, 5th Earl of Lenox, with who he acquired lands in >Rannoch and Fortingal, and secondly to a daughter of the Lord of the >Isles. >He is thought to have d. between 1355 - 1357 AD and was the father of >Patrick Duncanson, 1st of Lude. > > > >R1b1c7 Research and Links: > >http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com >with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the >body of >the message > > >R1b1c7 Research and Links: > >http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Chris, As Susan was saying, we may never know. We could make educated guesses, based on facts, but we may never know. Like you, at Family Tree I am genetically related to several ancient Irish families known to have lived in northern Ulster, which also is where the O'Muirgheasain name comes from. Then again, I also have genetic relationships with numerous Connacht families, apparently because the Niall name originally came from the Connacht region before their becoming kings of Ulster. So goes my education, but I likely will never know. Doug On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 7:37 PM, <cjl315@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Doug, > > > > I noticed some O'Morrison's in the 1609 Pardon lists from the rebellions in Ulster and thought of you and your quest to learn about Irish O'Morrisons. I also found my own surname (Lane) in there as well. It was listed mostly as "O'Lane. (maybe from O'Luain?)" > >   http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-State_Papers_1601.html > What surprised me is when I looked at the surnames in that list I found that I have many fairly close M-222 matches with the those surnames, such as Gallagher, Dogherty, McLaughline, and O'Neill..It certainly makes me believe my Lane's were from that part of Northern Ireland as well before coming to Virginia in the 1750's. They must have converted to the Presbyterian faith sometime in the 1600's while in Ulster. I've found another Lane in lives Belfast who has taken the DNA test through FTDNA. I'm hoping that his results are M-222 as well. > > > > Chris > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "tuulen" <tuulen@gmail.com> > To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net, dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 6:02:28 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] new thread Clans & membeship > > Susan, > > "All members of any Scottish clan will not be related genetically." > > I had to laugh when I read that, for that fits my situation exactly. > Although I can trace my father's family back to Co. Armagh in the late > 18th century, for many years I had simply assumed that the family had > at some time migrated there from somewhere in Scotland, an easy > assumption to make as my name is Morrison.  My research, however, > quickly discovered a very tangled Morrison history in Scotland and so, > realizing that I needed expert help, I contacted the Morrison Society > of North America.  Well, it turned out that the MSNA is promoting DNA > testing because the Morrison name had been popularly adopted over > centuries of time by at least several different families who were NOT > genetically related to each other, and DNA could help to identify just > which of those ancient Morrison families one of today's Morrisons > could come from.  That seemed quite reasonable, and so that is how I > got involved with DNA testing. > > But it turned out that I am NOT genetically related to ANY of the > Scottish Morrisons!  Huh?  What?  My name is Morrison.  Well, after > some study, it turns out that there was an ancient Irish family which > eventually adopted the Morrison name, and apparently that is the > family which I could belong to although I have not been able to make a > "paper trail" connection, but it seems a reasonable assumption. > > Back when Gaelic names were being Anglicized, the Scottish name Mac > Ghille Mhoire became Anglicized following a translation and so Mary's > son became Morrison, but could you guess why the Irish name > O'Muirgheasain also became O'Mrisane, O'Murison and Morrison? > > Let me add that I do have a 35/37 match with another Morrison, and he > traces his family to Ulster, too. > > Doug > > > On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Susan Hedeen > <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> One quote that is among my favorites is, "Genealogy:Where you confuse >> the dead and irritate the living." >> >> I think it  should be differentiated the difference between genetic >> heritage after surnames and clan surnames in regard to membership with >> in the Scottish Clans. >> >> I think it also a good suggestion that the entire history as presented >> by Clan Donnachaidh be read and digested as it is very clear that many >> of the remarks posted are based on not a thorough and complete reading >> of what they say about themselves in regard to all of their chiefs, the >> work they are endeavoring, and some of the tentative discoveries they >> believe they are making with the help of Skene, Moncreiffe, and MacGregor. >> >> All members of any Scottish clan will not be related genetically.  This >> goes back to surname designations and use.  The Chiefdom if you will was >> the only area where blood line inheritance meant anything, and they did >> try to keep track of that.  Whether or not they were entirely successful >> and/or whether or not the descendants were fully aware is another matter. >> >> The fact that with in most clans there are M222 lineages should be >> suggestive.  There are varying opinions on the matter, and few agree >> 100% with one another 100% of the time.  And who is knowledgeable enough >> in this group to have the all answers? >> >> I can tell you straight out, none of us do.  One person's opinion is no >> less valid than the next and this should be evident when even the >> supposed experts can't agree.  For crying out loud -- the fire hydrants >> are losing their red paint. >> >> It is no freaking wonder that the Irish and the Scots were bloody >> warring among themselves and each other most of their collective histories. >> >> And while we are on that subject of M222, just because it has been >> tagged, no one knows what the heck Nial's dna was either. >> >> You know I keep holding out some hope that this group is really going to >> work at this project rather than the P flying all the time.  I will not >> apologize for my tantrum here. Some of you really need to behave >> yourselves.  Susan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>  R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Susan and the Dunbar Clan has realized that fact and know many in the Clan and deal with it grouping the various family DNA's in several groupings including those of us that have shown to be M222.. William (Billy) T. Dunbar III -----Original Message----- From: Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>; dna-r1b1c7-request <dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com>; lochlan <lochlan@aol.com> Sent: Fri, Sep 23, 2011 1:35 am Subject: [R-M222] new thread Clans & membeship One quote that is among my favorites is, "Genealogy:Where you confuse the dead and irritate the living." I think it should be differentiated the difference between genetic heritage after surnames and clan surnames in regard to membership with in the Scottish Clans. I think it also a good suggestion that the entire history as presented by Clan Donnachaidh be read and digested as it is very clear that many of the remarks posted are based on not a thorough and complete reading of what they say about themselves in regard to all of their chiefs, the work they are endeavoring, and some of the tentative discoveries they believe they are making with the help of Skene, Moncreiffe, and MacGregor. All members of any Scottish clan will not be related genetically. This goes back to surname designations and use. The Chiefdom if you will was the only area where blood line inheritance meant anything, and they did try to keep track of that. Whether or not they were entirely successful and/or whether or not the descendants were fully aware is another matter. The fact that with in most clans there are M222 lineages should be suggestive. There are varying opinions on the matter, and few agree 100% with one another 100% of the time. And who is knowledgeable enough in this group to have the all answers? I can tell you straight out, none of us do. One person's opinion is no less valid than the next and this should be evident when even the supposed experts can't agree. For crying out loud -- the fire hydrants are losing their red paint. It is no freaking wonder that the Irish and the Scots were bloody warring among themselves and each other most of their collective histories. And while we are on that subject of M222, just because it has been tagged, no one knows what the heck Nial's dna was either. You know I keep holding out some hope that this group is really going to work at this project rather than the P flying all the time. I will not apologize for my tantrum here. Some of you really need to behave yourselves. Susan R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 9/23/2011 3:09:05 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com writes: John, Personally I would argue the exact opposite, namely that most noble lines are extinct or near extinct, for a combination of statistical and social reasons. It was proven by nineteenth century statisticians that most lines die out over a period of many centuries. Iain, I think there may be a difference between "royal" lines in Scotland based on primogeniture and the derbhfine system in Ireland. I can see any one "royal" line dying out - but not so much a system based on cousins. The Dohertys have a clan head, Pascual Doherty, from Spain, who is perfect match the a large number of M222 Dohertys. In investigating the Byrnes DNA in the Trinity spreadsheets there is one large cluster of related samples (about 40) compared to less than 20 of the same surname who do not match and do no even match each other. This large cluster matches the Kinsellas and Kavanaghs of Leinster. So I think there is a difference between the two systems. John

In a message dated 9/23/2011 12:16:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, countryunplugged@aol.com writes: How does this effect the Dunbar's who trace thier linage back to Crinan TheThane and are having several M222 show up? What about the huge number of Dunbars in the databases who are not M222? John

How does this effect the Dunbar's who trace thier linage back to Crinan TheThane and are having several M222 show up? -----Original Message----- From: Robert Reid <rreid002@insight.rr.com> To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:55 pm Subject: [R-M222] Crinan ancestry is subject to debate I have included the following to show that once established lines (many in Burkes Peerage) are wrong back to Crinan the Thane. Ian Kennedy has mentioned Gordon MacGregor who is an excellent researcher. There is much debate with many question marks. Thus M222 direct lineage is hard to prove. I have found that approximately 85% of Clan Donnachaidh is non M222. Many are Picts who were assimulated into the clan from the Perth surroundings and I1 varieties with Norse ancestry. All that can be really said is that the Earls of Atholl were collectively from the 'kindred of Columba' as cited by Moncreiffe and Skeene. In 2006, genealogy researcher Gordon MacGregor was asked to take a look at the origins of the clan and his examination of previously unconsidered charters turned up the vital evidence which he reported in the 2007 Clan Donnachaidh Annual. He discovered that the lands of Struan, the Clan Donnachaidh chiefs' lands and barony in Atholl, had originally been carved out of the earldom of Atholl and bundled with the Lude estate as Clunes. And that these lands could only descend in the male line. The likely line of ancestral ownership, for good if complex reasons, went Duncan - Andrew - Madach of Clunes - Duncan - Malcolm, 2nd Earl of Atholl. Andrew de Atholia, of Glenerocie, is the first verified male ancestor of the Clan Donnachaidh who is styled as father to Duncan de Atholia, in documents in the first half of the 14th century. Tradition states that he m. the daughter and heiress of Angus de Glenerochie and whom he acquired these lands although this is not the case given that the destination of these particular lands was to the heir-male exclusively therefore confirming a male descent from the Earls of Atholl. He was the father of Duncan de Atholia, 5th of Glenerochie. Duncan had charters for the land of Discher and Toyler from Duncan, Earl of Fife, in around 1343 AD and the lands of Appin of Dull from John, Bishop of Dunkeld, in Dec 1355 AD and in both of which he is styled as son of Andrew de Atholia. He succeeded to the lands of Glenerochie and was an adherent of King Robert I with whom he fought at the battle of Bannockburn in Jun 1314 AD. He is said to have m. firstly to a daughter of Malcolm, 5th Earl of Lenox, with who he acquired lands in Rannoch and Fortingal, and secondly to a daughter of the Lord of the Isles. He is thought to have d. between 1355 - 1357 AD and was the father of Patrick Duncanson, 1st of Lude. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have read of an oral genealogy for Clann Donnchaidh having them stem from MacDonalds (i.e. thBurke's version), however I haven't found it. I assume that there other oral genealogies out here to be found. > > What Gaelic genealogies of Scotland is he referring to? The MS. 1467? Or > something else? >

John, Personally I would argue the exact opposite, namely that most noble lines are extinct or near extinct, for a combination of statistical and social reasons. It was proven by nineteenth century statisticians that most lines die out over a period of many centuries. The investigation was started by a suggestion that the British peerage was dying out and it was suggested at the time that the fertility of heiresses was something to do with it. In the Kennedys I have studied, all but one of the landed families daughtered out and often it was the case that it was the younger sons of the cadet families who went off on risky overseas adventures, trading or military, because they had no chance of inheriting the family estates. I posted this link recently on the genealogy-dna list in case anyone is interested and missed it. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vL0hq80XXqMC&lpg=PA156&pg=PA156#v=onepage&f=false What are we left with? Lots of common folks who probably weren't related to the chief, whose lines have prospered due to random statistical fluctuations. Can I prove it? Yes, having analysed the ancestry of most of the Scottish Kennedys who still remain. cheers Iain > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 23:06:55 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Crinan ancestry is subject to debate > > > > In a message dated 9/22/2011 8:55:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > rreid002@insight.rr.com writes: > > All that can be really said is that the > Earls of Atholl were collectively from the 'kindred of Columba' as cited by > Moncreiffe and Skeene. > > I would say that's highly speculative as well. It's based on nothing > more substantial than the fact that Columcille (Columba) founded a monastery > in that part of Scotland. It does not necessarily follow that a lay abbot > centuries later was a descendent of one of the founder monks. I don't know > how this idea got started. An article in Wikipedia cites Sir Iain > Moncreiffe (the Highland Clans, 1982). A much earlier clan history reported by > Buchanan of Auchmar (1723) states the Clan Donnachaidh were descended from a > McDonald. > > "The Surname of Robertson is descended of one Duncan Crosda, or > Cross-grained, a son of MacDonald Lord of the Isles about the reign of King William > the Lyon...." > > But he adds: > > > "So that altho' this above account be the most generally received in > relation to the descent of that surname, I am not positive how far is is > acquiesced by those of the name.." > > He does not state what other clan histories might have been current in > his time. > > Given the work of Bryan Sykes, it should be obvious the Clan Donnachaidh > or Robertsons are not descended from the MacDonalds of the Isles. All > three major chieftain lines, MacDonald, MacAillister and MacDougal are R1a. > > Skene quotes a similar history but says it was Duncan reamhar, son of Angus > Mor, lord of the Isles who founded the clan. Skene doesn't believe it. > Skene thinks they were descended instead from the ancient Earls of Atholl. > Beyond that though he doesn't venture an opinion. > > There doesn't seem to be much verifiable history on this clan prior to > Duncan reamhair, whom Skene calls a son of Andrew. The date seems to be ca. > 1300. I can cite any number of Irish septs whose DNA matches perfectly from > a common ancestor at about this date, including McLaughlins, Dohertys, > Kavanaghs, Kinsellas and O'Byrnes. > > If the Robertsons and Reids (and Duncans) really are related to the old > chieftains of the Clan Donnachaidh it seems their DNA should match up just > as well. Just being M222 is not enough. > > Since most Scottish clan members are not related to the chieftains and the > DNA of the chieftains is unknown as far as I know, It's still possible they > could be members of the Clan Donnachaidh even if they don't match up well > in DNA. Most Scottish clans have at least some M222. But it seems to me > to attempt to tie into the tales of the kindred of Columba and Crinan the > abbot you would need a sample from the line of the old Robertson chieftains. > > That's a big problem for most Irish and Scottish researchers. Many do > not have an acknowledged clan head to test with a verified pedigree. If you > don't know what the DNA is for the line of the chieftains then you have no > fixed reference point for comparison. In such cases my own working > hypothesis is the largest related cluster in a surname group is most likely the > line of the chieftains. That may or may not be valid. But I don't know > what else to go on. > > Perhaps someone else will have so ideas. > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Actually the title is 'the genealogical histories of Gaelic Scotland' so I slightly misled you there. 'I commence an overview of the genre by seeking to define it. 'Gaelic' genealogical histories are works of narrative prose composed in manuscript, typically in English, between the mid seventeenth and mid nineteenth centuries. Usually they take as their subject a particular kindred and are written by a member of that kindred or an affiliate of high social rank. As Gaels and aristocrats our authors have certain access to oral and likely access to written Gaelic. ...our authors draw upon a range of sources which may include oral history in vernacular Gaelic and material derived from the Classical Gaelic tradition.' He identifies about 50 items that fit his criteria and they include the Red Book of Clanranald and the Black Book of Taymouth. Martin MacGregor has written separately on MS 1467 (but before Black's new version we have discussed) http://www.euppublishing.com/doi/abs/10.3366/inr.2000.51.2.131 cheers Iain > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 20:29:58 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] M222 Robertson/Duncan& other surnamesfrom official site of Clan ... > > > > In a message dated 9/22/2011 7:19:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com writes: > > I also have his book chapter on the Gaelic genealogies of Scotland > mentioned in his bibliography. > > What Gaelic genealogies of Scotland is he referring to? The MS. 1467? Or > something else? > > > John > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

* * _The Elizabeth Files » Plots Against Elizabeth I_ (http://www.elizabethfiles.com/plots-against-elizabeth-i/3509/) Jan 29, 2010 ... In 1586 Mary Q of S was involved in an encrypted correspondence with a conspirator ... and when he was 5 years old was sent to Kat Ashley's husband to be educated! .... This plot was the undoing of Mary, Queen of Scots. ... She was beheaded at Fotheringay Castle on the 8th February 1587 after a special ... www.elizabethfiles.com/plots-against-elizabeth-i/3509/ - _Similar_ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q= beheading mary queen of scots ashley&q=related:www.elizabethfiles.com/plots-against-elizabeth-i/3509/+beheading mary queen of scots ashley) * Small world My wife mother( in law) maiden name is Gilchrist she and her Aunt Bernie told me back in 1957 and has always stated her family descended from Mary Queen of Scots .the very same Gilchrist that are related to our Duncan ....??? My wife of 46 years dated 8 years before marriage, maybe its part of the never fading enduring chemistry.Gene There were three successive MacGilchrist generations that followed Gilchrist as Lords (or, Lairds) of Arrochar. In his authoritative book: THE CLANS, SEPTS, AND REGIMENTS OF THE SCOTTISH HIGHLANDS, Mr. Frank Adam stated (Page: 243) that the family first made Inveruglas the seat of its authority, then Tarbert (on Loch Lomond), and lastly Arrochar. From this family would descend the Clan MacFarlane. Gilchrist’s elder son, was Duncan MacGilchrist who became the The Third Lord of Arrochar was Malduin MacGilchrist, the son of Duncan. (Possibility exists that his name may have been Malcolm.) Malduin, it is known, was an ardent supporter of Robert the Bruce, even providing the future king with protection when he fled through the Lennox. Becoming the Fourth Lord of Arrochar was Malduin’s son, Parlan (Gaelic for Bartholomew). It would be from Parlan MacGilchrist, an outstanding warrior who gained fame at the age of fifteen by leading an assault on the Vikings in the Battle of Largs that the family would acquire the surname of MacFarlane. Of great interest, however, is the statement made by Mr. Donald Whyte in his book, SCOTTISH SURNAMES & FAMILIES (Birlinn Ltd., Edinburgh, l996, pg. 172) that not all members of the clan changed their name from MacGilchrist to MacFarlane. Nevertheless, according to Mr. William Buchanan of Auchmar in his book, AN INQUIRY INTO THE GENEALOGY AND PRESENT STATE OF ANCIENT SCOTTISH SURNAMES (pub. 1820) the MacGilchrists would be regarded as a cadet of the Clan MacFarlane. With the tragic execution-style slaying in 1425 of Duncan, Eighth Earl of Lennox, by King James I the original line of earls ended; the Clan MacFarlane now became the senior male inheritor of the earldom. But in an insulting rejection the MacFarlane claim was ignored and the title was conferred on Sir John Stewart of Darnley who had married Elizabeth, second of the three daughters of the eighth earl. It was Henry, younger son of the fourth of the new Stewart Earls of Lennox who became the second husband of Mary, Queen of Scots, and subsequently father of King James VI. Thus, the Earldom of Lennox ultimately passed to James VI. The strong resistance to the new Stewart earls by the MacFarlanes resulted in the loss of their lands and the dispersal of many of their clansmen. Later, however, with the marriage of Andrew MacFarlane, leader of a cadet branch of the clan, to the daughter of John Stewart, the Lands of Arrochar again became MacFarlane and Andrew became recognized as the tenth chief. It is probable that it was this Andrew MacFarlane who Andrew McKerral notes in his book, KINTYRE IN THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY (Page: 12), who received a tack (lease) of land at Askomel near Campbeltown, Kintyre in l506. Thereafter, the clan, with their chiefs referred to as "Captains", gave complete unswerving loyalty and support to the Stewarts. Sir John, the eleventh chief, was killed in l5l3 while fighting with the Lennox brigade in the Battle of Flodden. His grandson, Duncan, the thirteenth chief, was killed fighting the English in the Battle of Pinkie in l547. It was this Duncan who was among the first of the highland chiefs to accept the new Presbyterian faith. The clan supported, along with the Stewart Earls of Lennox, the enemies of Mary, Queen of Scots following the murder of her husband Henry, Lord Darnley, son of the Earl of Lennox. In the Battle of Langside fought in l568 against the forces loyal to the queen, the MacFarlane contribution was so outstanding that the clan received for its motto: "THIS I’LL DEFEND". It was their loyalty to the Stewarts that caused the MacFarlanes to align themselves with the Marquess of Montrose in his seventeenth century fight in support of King Charles I --- joined also by the Clan MacDonald of the western isles. The end of the sixteenth century saw the MacFarlanes become a broken _The Elizabeth Files » Plots Against Elizabeth I_ (http:// www.elizabethfiles.com/plots-against-elizabeth-i/3509/) Jan 29, 2010 ... In 1586 Mary Q of S was involved in an encrypted correspondence with a conspirator ... and when he was 5 years old was sent to Kat Ashley's husband to be educated! .... This plot was the undoing of Mary, Queen of Scots. ... She was beheaded at Fotheringay Castle on the 8th February 1587 after a special ... www.elizabethfiles.com/plots-against-elizabeth-i/3509/ - _Similar_ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q= beheading mary queen of scots ashley&q=related:www.elizabethfiles.com/plots-against-elizabeth-i/3509/+beheading mary queen of scots ashley) * _Who Was Who_ (http://www.elizabethi.org/us/who/a-m.html) She married Elizabeth's distant cousin, John Ashley. ... She was also mother in law to Mary, Queen of Scots, who married her second son, Francis. CECIL, SIR ... www.elizabethi.org/us/who/a-m.html - _Similarto Who Was Who _ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=mary queen of scots john ashley&q=related:www.elizabethi.org/us/who/a-m.html+mary queen of scots john ashley) * _The Elizabeth Files » The Household of Elizabeth Tudor_ (http://www.elizabethfiles.com/the-household-of-elizabeth-tudor/4634/) Feb 1, 2011 ... In 1586 Mary Q of S was involved in an encrypted correspondence with a ... 1562 Letter to Mary Queen of Scots · Letter from Princess Elizabeth to Mary I .... J L McIntosh writes of how John Ashley, Kat's future husband, joined ... www.elizabethfiles.com/the-household-of-elizabeth-tudor/4634/ - _Similarto The Elizabeth Files » The Household of Elizabeth Tudor _ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=mary queen of scots john ashley&q=related:www.elizabethfiles.com/the-household-of-elizabeth-tudor/4634/+mary queen of scots john ashley) * _The Elizabeth Files_ (http://www.elizabethfiles.com/) Sep 13, 2011 ... The Elizabeth Files examines the truth about Queen ... www.elizabethfiles.com/ - _Similarto The Elizabeth Files _ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=mary queen of scots john ashley&q=related:www.elizabethfiles.com/+mary queen of scots john ashley) [ _More results from www.elizabethfiles.com_ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=moreResultFrom.search&v_t=client_searchbox&q=site:www.elizabethfiles .com+mary+queen+of+scots+john+ashley) ] * _The Elizabeth Files » Finding Kat Ashley by Karen Harper_ (http://www.elizabethfiles.com/finding-kat-ashley-by-karen-harper/3460/) Jan 7, 2010 ... Finding Kat Ashley by Karen Harper :The Elizabeth Files ... www.elizabethfiles.com/finding-kat-ashley-by-karen-harper/3460/ - _Similarto The Elizabeth Files » Finding Kat Ashley by Karen Harper _ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=mary queen of scots john ashley&q=related:www.elizabethfiles.com/finding-kat-ashley-by-karen-harper/3460/+mary queen of scots john ashley) * () * _England Under The Tudors: Katherine 'Kat' Ashley (?1500-1565)_ (http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/katashley.htm) Jan 21, 2007 ... Biography of Kat Ashley, Queen Elizabeth's governess and later First Lady of the ... She married John Ashley, a gentleman of the court and a distant relative of Anne Boleyn, in 1545. .... Margaret Tudor, Queen of Scotland ... www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/katashley.htm - _Similarto England Under The Tudors: Katherine 'Kat' Ashley (?1500-1565) _ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=mary queen of scots john ashley&q=related:www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/katashley.htm+mary queen of scots john ashley) * _Amazon.com: Early Modern England 1485-1714: A Narrative ..._ (http://www.amazon.com/Early-Modern-England-1485-1714-Narrative/dp/0631213937) Published 12 months ago by John B. Ashley Jr. ... House of Commons, King James, Queen Anne, Royal Navy, Mary Queen of Scots, Old English, Wars of the ... www.amazon.com/Early-Modern-England-1485-1714-Narrative/dp/0631... - _Similarto Amazon.com: Early Modern England 1485-1714: A Narrative ... _ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q= mary queen of scots john ashley&q=related:www.amazon.com/Early-Modern-England-1485-1714-Narrative/dp/0631213937+mary queen of scots john ashley) * _Amazon.com: Elizabeth and Mary: Cousins, Rivals, ..._ (http://www.amazon.com/Elizabeth-Mary-Cousins-Rivals-Queens/dp/0375408983) Queen of Scots: The True Life of Mary Stuart by John Guy. 4.6 out of 5 stars ... www.amazon.com/Elizabeth-Mary-Cousins-Rivals-Queens/dp/0... - _Similarto Amazon.com: Elizabeth and Mary: Cousins, Rivals, ... _ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=mary queen of scots john ashley&q=related:www.amazon.com/Elizabeth-Mary-Cousins-Rivals-Queens/dp/0375408983+mary queen of scots john ashley) [ _More results from www.amazon.com_ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=moreResultFrom.search&v_t=client_searchbox&q=site:www.amazon.com+mary+queen+ of+scots+john+ashley) ] * () * ()

Susan, "All members of any Scottish clan will not be related genetically." I had to laugh when I read that, for that fits my situation exactly. Although I can trace my father's family back to Co. Armagh in the late 18th century, for many years I had simply assumed that the family had at some time migrated there from somewhere in Scotland, an easy assumption to make as my name is Morrison.  My research, however, quickly discovered a very tangled Morrison history in Scotland and so, realizing that I needed expert help, I contacted the Morrison Society of North America. Well, it turned out that the MSNA is promoting DNA testing because the Morrison name had been popularly adopted over centuries of time by at least several different families who were NOT genetically related to each other, and DNA could help to identify just which of those ancient Morrison families one of today's Morrisons could come from. That seemed quite reasonable, and so that is how I got involved with DNA testing. But it turned out that I am NOT genetically related to ANY of the Scottish Morrisons! Huh? What? My name is Morrison. Well, after some study, it turns out that there was an ancient Irish family which eventually adopted the Morrison name, and apparently that is the family which I could belong to although I have not been able to make a "paper trail" connection, but it seems a reasonable assumption. Back when Gaelic names were being Anglicized, the Scottish name Mac Ghille Mhoire became Anglicized following a translation and so Mary's son became Morrison, but could you guess why the Irish name O'Muirgheasain also became O'Mrisane, O'Murison and Morrison? Let me add that I do have a 35/37 match with another Morrison, and he traces his family to Ulster, too. Doug On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > > One quote that is among my favorites is, "Genealogy:Where you confuse > the dead and irritate the living." > > I think it  should be differentiated the difference between genetic > heritage after surnames and clan surnames in regard to membership with > in the Scottish Clans. > > I think it also a good suggestion that the entire history as presented > by Clan Donnachaidh be read and digested as it is very clear that many > of the remarks posted are based on not a thorough and complete reading > of what they say about themselves in regard to all of their chiefs, the > work they are endeavoring, and some of the tentative discoveries they > believe they are making with the help of Skene, Moncreiffe, and MacGregor. > > All members of any Scottish clan will not be related genetically.  This > goes back to surname designations and use.  The Chiefdom if you will was > the only area where blood line inheritance meant anything, and they did > try to keep track of that.  Whether or not they were entirely successful > and/or whether or not the descendants were fully aware is another matter. > > The fact that with in most clans there are M222 lineages should be > suggestive.  There are varying opinions on the matter, and few agree > 100% with one another 100% of the time.  And who is knowledgeable enough > in this group to have the all answers? > > I can tell you straight out, none of us do.  One person's opinion is no > less valid than the next and this should be evident when even the > supposed experts can't agree.  For crying out loud -- the fire hydrants > are losing their red paint. > > It is no freaking wonder that the Irish and the Scots were bloody > warring among themselves and each other most of their collective histories. > > And while we are on that subject of M222, just because it has been > tagged, no one knows what the heck Nial's dna was either. > > You know I keep holding out some hope that this group is really going to > work at this project rather than the P flying all the time.  I will not > apologize for my tantrum here. Some of you really need to behave > yourselves.  Susan > > > > > > > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One quote that is among my favorites is, "Genealogy:Where you confuse the dead and irritate the living." I think it should be differentiated the difference between genetic heritage after surnames and clan surnames in regard to membership with in the Scottish Clans. I think it also a good suggestion that the entire history as presented by Clan Donnachaidh be read and digested as it is very clear that many of the remarks posted are based on not a thorough and complete reading of what they say about themselves in regard to all of their chiefs, the work they are endeavoring, and some of the tentative discoveries they believe they are making with the help of Skene, Moncreiffe, and MacGregor. All members of any Scottish clan will not be related genetically. This goes back to surname designations and use. The Chiefdom if you will was the only area where blood line inheritance meant anything, and they did try to keep track of that. Whether or not they were entirely successful and/or whether or not the descendants were fully aware is another matter. The fact that with in most clans there are M222 lineages should be suggestive. There are varying opinions on the matter, and few agree 100% with one another 100% of the time. And who is knowledgeable enough in this group to have the all answers? I can tell you straight out, none of us do. One person's opinion is no less valid than the next and this should be evident when even the supposed experts can't agree. For crying out loud -- the fire hydrants are losing their red paint. It is no freaking wonder that the Irish and the Scots were bloody warring among themselves and each other most of their collective histories. And while we are on that subject of M222, just because it has been tagged, no one knows what the heck Nial's dna was either. You know I keep holding out some hope that this group is really going to work at this project rather than the P flying all the time. I will not apologize for my tantrum here. Some of you really need to behave yourselves. Susan

In a message dated 9/22/2011 8:55:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rreid002@insight.rr.com writes: All that can be really said is that the Earls of Atholl were collectively from the 'kindred of Columba' as cited by Moncreiffe and Skeene. I would say that's highly speculative as well. It's based on nothing more substantial than the fact that Columcille (Columba) founded a monastery in that part of Scotland. It does not necessarily follow that a lay abbot centuries later was a descendent of one of the founder monks. I don't know how this idea got started. An article in Wikipedia cites Sir Iain Moncreiffe (the Highland Clans, 1982). A much earlier clan history reported by Buchanan of Auchmar (1723) states the Clan Donnachaidh were descended from a McDonald. "The Surname of Robertson is descended of one Duncan Crosda, or Cross-grained, a son of MacDonald Lord of the Isles about the reign of King William the Lyon...." But he adds: "So that altho' this above account be the most generally received in relation to the descent of that surname, I am not positive how far is is acquiesced by those of the name.." He does not state what other clan histories might have been current in his time. Given the work of Bryan Sykes, it should be obvious the Clan Donnachaidh or Robertsons are not descended from the MacDonalds of the Isles. All three major chieftain lines, MacDonald, MacAillister and MacDougal are R1a. Skene quotes a similar history but says it was Duncan reamhar, son of Angus Mor, lord of the Isles who founded the clan. Skene doesn't believe it. Skene thinks they were descended instead from the ancient Earls of Atholl. Beyond that though he doesn't venture an opinion. There doesn't seem to be much verifiable history on this clan prior to Duncan reamhair, whom Skene calls a son of Andrew. The date seems to be ca. 1300. I can cite any number of Irish septs whose DNA matches perfectly from a common ancestor at about this date, including McLaughlins, Dohertys, Kavanaghs, Kinsellas and O'Byrnes. If the Robertsons and Reids (and Duncans) really are related to the old chieftains of the Clan Donnachaidh it seems their DNA should match up just as well. Just being M222 is not enough. Since most Scottish clan members are not related to the chieftains and the DNA of the chieftains is unknown as far as I know, It's still possible they could be members of the Clan Donnachaidh even if they don't match up well in DNA. Most Scottish clans have at least some M222. But it seems to me to attempt to tie into the tales of the kindred of Columba and Crinan the abbot you would need a sample from the line of the old Robertson chieftains. That's a big problem for most Irish and Scottish researchers. Many do not have an acknowledged clan head to test with a verified pedigree. If you don't know what the DNA is for the line of the chieftains then you have no fixed reference point for comparison. In such cases my own working hypothesis is the largest related cluster in a surname group is most likely the line of the chieftains. That may or may not be valid. But I don't know what else to go on. Perhaps someone else will have so ideas. John

I have included the following to show that once established lines (many in Burkes Peerage) are wrong back to Crinan the Thane. Ian Kennedy has mentioned Gordon MacGregor who is an excellent researcher. There is much debate with many question marks. Thus M222 direct lineage is hard to prove. I have found that approximately 85% of Clan Donnachaidh is non M222. Many are Picts who were assimulated into the clan from the Perth surroundings and I1 varieties with Norse ancestry. All that can be really said is that the Earls of Atholl were collectively from the 'kindred of Columba' as cited by Moncreiffe and Skeene. In 2006, genealogy researcher Gordon MacGregor was asked to take a look at the origins of the clan and his examination of previously unconsidered charters turned up the vital evidence which he reported in the 2007 Clan Donnachaidh Annual. He discovered that the lands of Struan, the Clan Donnachaidh chiefs' lands and barony in Atholl, had originally been carved out of the earldom of Atholl and bundled with the Lude estate as Clunes. And that these lands could only descend in the male line. The likely line of ancestral ownership, for good if complex reasons, went Duncan - Andrew - Madach of Clunes - Duncan - Malcolm, 2nd Earl of Atholl. Andrew de Atholia, of Glenerocie, is the first verified male ancestor of the Clan Donnachaidh who is styled as father to Duncan de Atholia, in documents in the first half of the 14th century. Tradition states that he m. the daughter and heiress of Angus de Glenerochie and whom he acquired these lands although this is not the case given that the destination of these particular lands was to the heir-male exclusively therefore confirming a male descent from the Earls of Atholl. He was the father of Duncan de Atholia, 5th of Glenerochie. Duncan had charters for the land of Discher and Toyler from Duncan, Earl of Fife, in around 1343 AD and the lands of Appin of Dull from John, Bishop of Dunkeld, in Dec 1355 AD and in both of which he is styled as son of Andrew de Atholia. He succeeded to the lands of Glenerochie and was an adherent of King Robert I with whom he fought at the battle of Bannockburn in Jun 1314 AD. He is said to have m. firstly to a daughter of Malcolm, 5th Earl of Lenox, with who he acquired lands in Rannoch and Fortingal, and secondly to a daughter of the Lord of the Isles. He is thought to have d. between 1355 - 1357 AD and was the father of Patrick Duncanson, 1st of Lude.

In a message dated 9/22/2011 7:19:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com writes: I also have his book chapter on the Gaelic genealogies of Scotland mentioned in his bibliography. What Gaelic genealogies of Scotland is he referring to? The MS. 1467? Or something else? John

Source: History of the county of Bute, and families connected therewith By John Eaton Reid Grant of 1506 Makconochy - Ambrisbeg Makconochy - Kyngawane Makconochy - Coweling Makconochy - Dunguild Makconochy - Kerymanach Makconochy - Barone By 1704 Donald McConochie of Ambriesbeg Seems to be the only one still in charge of an estate. McConochies of Ambrisbeg: Besides the noble family of Bute the McConochies of Ambrisbeg are perhaps the only remaining link connecting the present generation of landholders in the island of Bute with those who held property there under the general charter of James IV in 1506 The present representative of the family Alexander M Conochy Esq married a daughter of Haig farmer Kilmory He resides at Ambrisbeg and is generally spoken of in Bute as Baron M Conochy of Ambrisbeg In 1506 King James IV granted the lands to Ewin M Conochy In 1541 there appears on record Finlay M Conochy In 1602 John M Conochy was served heir to Allan M Conochy his father in the lands of Dunnegeil In 1632 Alexander M Conochy was served heir of Eugine M Conochy of Ambrisbeg his grandfather In 1677 James M Conochy was served heir of Alexander M Conochy his grandfather in the two and a half merk land of Ambrisbeg The Isle of Bute in theolden time: with illustrations, maps, and plans, Volume 2 (Google eBook) Front Cover <http://books.google.com/books?id=ELwxAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0> James King Hewison <http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=inauthor:%22James+King+Hewison%22> W. Blackwood and sons, 1895 - History <http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=subject:%22History%22&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0> Renters in 1506: p.137: Donald Makconochy, Dunguile (Dunagoil) Eugene (Ewin) Makconochy, Ambrisbeg(descendants held this land until 1865 when Alexander McConochy, known as Baron McConochy of Ambrisbeg sold it to the Marquis of Bute). His was the last McConnochy estate in Bute. Gilchrist Makconochy, Berone p.139: John Makconochy, Cowleing(shared with Alexander Makwrerdy) Malcolm Makconochy, Kyngawane Duncan Makconochy, Kerymanch