Bravo, Bill Howard! That ballpark estimation makes for interesting consideration. Good going! On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 6:10 PM, Bill Howard <weh8@verizon.net> wrote: > How many people lived in Ireland at the time the progenitor of the M222 SNP lived in 1680 BC? > > Here is a rough, back-of-the-envelope calculation that indicates a ball-park answer to that question, accompanied by the logic behind the computation. Please bear in mind that the figures may be accurate only to an order of magnitude. So here goes, > > Let us assume that the population of Ireland grows at the same rate as the population growth of the world.  This is not unreasonable. Let us also assume that a generation consists of 28 years, a compromise figure  between 25 and 32, which could be off by 10-20% (but remember we are after only ball-park answers). > > Now, the population of the world in 1960 was about 3 billion people. > The origin of the SNP took place about 1680 BC (reference: the paper that John McLaughlin and I wrote together). If you look into world population statistics at the time of origin of the M222 SNP, it was about 40 million people in 1680 BC. > > Assuming that the growth of the world population was exponential, we compute a growth rate of 1.033 per generation to bring us to an end population of 3 billion people 130 generations later, in 1960 AD. > > Now, if the population of Ireland grew at the same rate, we can calculate how many people were living in Ireland in 1680 BC. The population of Ireland in 1960 was about 4.2 million people, but about that same number had left Ireland for other countries. Therefore, we can derive the starting number of Irish from the end population of 8 million people using the same factor, 1.033 per generation, as the growth rate. To fit the end result using that growth rate, the beginning population of Ireland in 1680 BC must have been about 112,000 people of whom about half, or 56,000 were males. This is the estimate of the population of Ireland at the time of origin of the M222 SNP. > > The largest uncertainty in this figure is probably the assumption that as many Irish with ancestry that traces to the Green Isle in 1680 BC is twice the current population of Ireland (both the Republic and Ulster), but the final number, 56,000 males, should be good to perhaps a factor of three. > > - Bye from Bill Howard > > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

How many people lived in Ireland at the time the progenitor of the M222 SNP lived in 1680 BC? Here is a rough, back-of-the-envelope calculation that indicates a ball-park answer to that question, accompanied by the logic behind the computation. Please bear in mind that the figures may be accurate only to an order of magnitude. So here goes, Let us assume that the population of Ireland grows at the same rate as the population growth of the world. This is not unreasonable. Let us also assume that a generation consists of 28 years, a compromise figure between 25 and 32, which could be off by 10-20% (but remember we are after only ball-park answers). Now, the population of the world in 1960 was about 3 billion people. The origin of the SNP took place about 1680 BC (reference: the paper that John McLaughlin and I wrote together). If you look into world population statistics at the time of origin of the M222 SNP, it was about 40 million people in 1680 BC. Assuming that the growth of the world population was exponential, we compute a growth rate of 1.033 per generation to bring us to an end population of 3 billion people 130 generations later, in 1960 AD. Now, if the population of Ireland grew at the same rate, we can calculate how many people were living in Ireland in 1680 BC. The population of Ireland in 1960 was about 4.2 million people, but about that same number had left Ireland for other countries. Therefore, we can derive the starting number of Irish from the end population of 8 million people using the same factor, 1.033 per generation, as the growth rate. To fit the end result using that growth rate, the beginning population of Ireland in 1680 BC must have been about 112,000 people of whom about half, or 56,000 were males. This is the estimate of the population of Ireland at the time of origin of the M222 SNP. The largest uncertainty in this figure is probably the assumption that as many Irish with ancestry that traces to the Green Isle in 1680 BC is twice the current population of Ireland (both the Republic and Ulster), but the final number, 56,000 males, should be good to perhaps a factor of three. - Bye from Bill Howard

My paternal ancestors are McLains and I have researched them back to Dublin city circa 1720 (the name then was mostly spelled Maclaine or Macklaine and they were Church of Ireland protestants). After submitting YDNA several years ago I got one 37-marker match which crossed my paternal line 9 generations ago which helped in my research. My other match was with someone named McLain but they only had 25 markers and the estimated match was about 20 generations but I believe it may be closer. Now onto what I need help understanding... In the 67-marker M222 worksheet done by Wilson and McLaughlin, I get that all the names are grouped in accordance with variation from the Modal Haplotype of M222. I am number 50 on the list (McLain) and I'm in a large group of Doherty-variant surnames. To be precise, numbers 41-58 are Doherty-variants except for me... But I have no Doherty 67-marker matches. Are these names so distant that I match them a thousand years ago? I have several 12/25 matches for Dohertys and the only other name thats come up more than once is Galyean/Gallion which is 3 or 4 individuals with variants of this name at 25 markers) In studying my own clan's genealogy, less than 10% of Maclean/Maclaine variants are M222 positive like I am and mostly are Celtic dna. I have taken this to mean that possibly some Dohertys crossed the Irish sea into Scotland between 1200-1500 and there was a non-paternal event of a Doherty child being accepted into the family. Would I be correct in this assumption? The other possiblity is that my ancestors were never in Scotland to begin with and a Doherty became a Maclaine much later between 1600 and 1700 a.d. just beyond my paper trail. Any help would be appreciated, Thank you very much! Chris (McLain) Beal

Oram clearly regards Cospatrick as Anglo-Saxon though, in Domination and Lordship, Scotland 1070-1230. He doesn't go into a detailed exploration of his ancestry but his behaviour and associates seem to put him more in this camp? 'He was the first and most prominent of a group of Anglo-Saxon emigres who gravitated towards Scotland and settled there...' Iain > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 08:47:38 -0400 > From: dunbardna@gmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Clan Donnachaidh M222 > > I can quote from a recent publication about the ancient Dunbar lineage which > may or may not shed light on the possible connection between the Dunbars and > Crinan. > > Taken from: "Mighty Subjects - The Dunbar Earls in Scotland c1072-1289" by > Elsa Hamilton published 2010 Glasgow Scotland. > > Elsa is affiliated with the Paradox of Medieval Scotland Project: > http://www.poms.ac.uk/ > > Pg 7 in reference to the 1st Gospatric of Dunbar c1072: > > "Who was he, this Gospatric, earl of Northumbria? Certainly he was no > low-born adventurer, for on his mother's side he was descended from both the > English royal house of Wessex, and the House of Bamburgh, rulers of the > northern Northumbrian kingdom of Bernicia. About his father, Maldred, there > is much speculation. It was once thought that Maldred, who is called "son > of Crinan", was the brother of Duncan I, king of Scots; and that Gospatric, > consequently, was a first cousin of Malcolm III. If that were so, it would > offer a convincing explanation of the generosity Malcolm apparently showed > to him. But there is not a shred of proof that Crinan, his grandfather, was > the same Crinan who was Malcolm's grandfather. Maldred, Gospatric's father, > is said to have been a thane, and a very wealthy man, and the strong > likelihood is that Gospatric's mother, Ealdgyth, married not a member of the > Scottish royal house, but one of the richest of her father Earl Uhtred's top > officials in Northumbria"2 > > 2 Footnote: B.W.S. Barrow, Companions of the Atheling, Anglo-Norman > Studies......Professor Barrow disarmingly offers to eat 'humble pie' if the > identification of Gospatric's grandfather Crinan with Crinan, lay abbot of > Dunkeld and father of Duncan I, can be proven. We have recently been > reminded, however, that the name Crinan, applied to Maldred's father and the > abbot of Dunkeld and a moneyer of King Cnut, occurs in Britain only in this > generation and that it seems strange that it "should simultaneously belong > to three unrelated individuals' (Woolf, *Pictland to Alba*, 252). The > pendulum may therefore be swinging slightly back towards to the possibility > that Gospatric was Malcolm's cousin." > > Clan Irwin claims to be brother to Crinan and at one point we thought we'd > triangulated the DNA back one more generation but that group (which includes > Irwin bluebloods) is haplogroup R-L21+ while the Dunbar Lineage 1 group, > which includes Dunbar bluebloods) is R-L257. > > Doubt this issue as to who descends from Crinan will be resolved anytime > soon. > > > -- > Debra Dunbar Nowell – Administrator - Dunbar Surname YDNA Project > http://www.DunbarDNA.org/ > > DNA Administrator- Clan Dunbar, Inc. > http://www.clandunbar.com/ > > *A Family Tree DNA project* > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For any of you who are actively doing research looking for test subjects with in your project or surname, you can purchase kits through the general fund of your project ear marked. I do this when kits go on sale -- I'll donate to the general fund earmarking the donation, get hold of the administrator to buy the kits on sale, and then when a candidate is found to test -- and we look in Scotland & Ireland -- the kits are distributed to them. Here is notice of a sale going on until midnight tonight. Susan On 9/26/2011 5:03 PM, Tim Duncan wrote: > > Susan, > > Here is your chance to order some Y-DNA test for McC's. > > Tim Duncan > > Administrator: Donnachaidh DNA Project > > Email: tim@clandonnachaidhdna.org <mailto:tim@clandonnachaidhdna.org> > > Website: www.clandonnachaidhdna.org <http://www.clandonnachaidhdna.org/> > > *From:*do-not-reply@familytreedna.com > [mailto:do-not-reply@familytreedna.com] > *Sent:* Monday, September 26, 2011 10:11 AM > *To:* tim@clandonnachaidhdna.org > *Subject:* Family Tree DNA Sale Starting TODAY! (36 Hours ONLY) > > > *Dear Project Administrator,* > > Thank you for helping us reach *15,000 LIKES *on our Facebook page! To > show how much we like you too, we're offering a *36-HOUR SALE!* > > *START:*Monday, September 26 (TODAY) at 12:00pm CDT > *END:*Tuesday, September 27 at 11:59pm CDT > > *For NEW customers:* > Y-DNA 12 . . . $59 /(was $99)/ > mtDNA . . . $59/ (was $99)/ > > Y-DNA 37 . . . $129 /(was $149)/ > Family Finder . . . $199 /(was $289)/ > mtFullSequence (FGS) . . . $229 /(was $299)/ > > Y-DNA 12 + mtDNA . . . $118 /(was $179)/ > Family Finder + Y-DNA 12 . . . $248 /(was $339)/ > Family Finder + mtDNA . . . $248 /(was $339) / > Family Finder + Y-DNA 37 . . . $328 /(was $438)/ > Family Finder + mtFullSequence . . . $398 /(was $559)/ > Comprehensive Genome (Family Finder + mtFullSequence + Y-DNA67) . > . . $597 /(was $797)/ > > *Upgrades & Add-Ons:* > mtDNA add-on $59 . . . /(was $89)/ > mtFullSequence upgrade (HVR1 to Mega) . . . $199 /(was $269)/ > mtFullSequence upgrade (HVR2 to Mega) . . . $199/(was $239)/ > mtFullSequence add-on . . . $219 /(was $289)/ > Family Finder add-on . . . $199 /(was $289)/ > > Prices will be automatically adjusted on the Family Tree DNA website > -- no coupon code needed! *Important: Promotional orders need to be > paid for by the end of this sale.* Visit us at > http://www.familytreedna.com to order now. > > We hope this limited-time sale will give you yet another reason to > *"LIKE"*us! > > Thank you for your support! > > Family Tree DNA > www.familytreedna.com <http://www.familytreedna.com> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This offer ends TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 27th, 2011 11:59pm CDT. > *You do not need to be a member of Facebook to take advantage of this > offer. Payment must be received at the time of your order. Valid only > on products listed. No substitutions. No adjustments will be made on > previous purchases. This promotion is not valid in combination with > any other promotions. Family Tree DNA reserves the right to cancel any > order due to unauthorized or ineligible use of discounts and to modify > or cancel these promotional discounts due to system error or > unforeseen problems. Subject to change without notice. > > © All Contents Copyright 2001-2010 Genealogy by Genetics, Ltd. >

I can quote from a recent publication about the ancient Dunbar lineage which may or may not shed light on the possible connection between the Dunbars and Crinan. Taken from: "Mighty Subjects - The Dunbar Earls in Scotland c1072-1289" by Elsa Hamilton published 2010 Glasgow Scotland. Elsa is affiliated with the Paradox of Medieval Scotland Project: http://www.poms.ac.uk/ Pg 7 in reference to the 1st Gospatric of Dunbar c1072: "Who was he, this Gospatric, earl of Northumbria? Certainly he was no low-born adventurer, for on his mother's side he was descended from both the English royal house of Wessex, and the House of Bamburgh, rulers of the northern Northumbrian kingdom of Bernicia. About his father, Maldred, there is much speculation. It was once thought that Maldred, who is called "son of Crinan", was the brother of Duncan I, king of Scots; and that Gospatric, consequently, was a first cousin of Malcolm III. If that were so, it would offer a convincing explanation of the generosity Malcolm apparently showed to him. But there is not a shred of proof that Crinan, his grandfather, was the same Crinan who was Malcolm's grandfather. Maldred, Gospatric's father, is said to have been a thane, and a very wealthy man, and the strong likelihood is that Gospatric's mother, Ealdgyth, married not a member of the Scottish royal house, but one of the richest of her father Earl Uhtred's top officials in Northumbria"2 2 Footnote: B.W.S. Barrow, Companions of the Atheling, Anglo-Norman Studies......Professor Barrow disarmingly offers to eat 'humble pie' if the identification of Gospatric's grandfather Crinan with Crinan, lay abbot of Dunkeld and father of Duncan I, can be proven. We have recently been reminded, however, that the name Crinan, applied to Maldred's father and the abbot of Dunkeld and a moneyer of King Cnut, occurs in Britain only in this generation and that it seems strange that it "should simultaneously belong to three unrelated individuals' (Woolf, *Pictland to Alba*, 252). The pendulum may therefore be swinging slightly back towards to the possibility that Gospatric was Malcolm's cousin." Clan Irwin claims to be brother to Crinan and at one point we thought we'd triangulated the DNA back one more generation but that group (which includes Irwin bluebloods) is haplogroup R-L21+ while the Dunbar Lineage 1 group, which includes Dunbar bluebloods) is R-L257. Doubt this issue as to who descends from Crinan will be resolved anytime soon. -- Debra Dunbar Nowell – Administrator - Dunbar Surname YDNA Project http://www.DunbarDNA.org/ DNA Administrator- Clan Dunbar, Inc. http://www.clandunbar.com/ *A Family Tree DNA project*

Sandy, 203128 doesn't appear on the Lamont site as far as I can see (unless there are more than one). However, if your man is 9/15, he is of interest as a possible pre M222. A variance of six with M222/L21 is relatively unusual. What then of his other (M222) off-modal markers. If he has, say, twelve or more additional off-modals, he is a candidate for a very early M222 or a pre M222 - and I'm now accepting the M222 is 3000 years old thesis in this respect. As you know, my cluster (at about -1000 years) usually has almost the complete set of M222 identifiers, but also consistently about nine additional off-modals. I think we should now be working towards trying to establish the latest pre M222 that we can. Perhaps, though, we don't have enough continental information yet. David Grierson On 26/09/2011 4:53 PM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > [I found a Lamont sample in your name on Ysearch the other day. He does > not appear to be M222. Who might that be?] > > It's probably Lamont, kit number 203128 on the Lamont site. > > He may be M222 but he's not obviously so. I think he matches 9/15 of the > markers that distinguish M222 from L21 and he hasn't had his haplotype > tested. His roots go back to Argyllshire, and he has a rock-solid pedigree > that goes back to a birth in 1710 registered in Inverkip. He's one > generation away from proving that he's descended from the McPhadrick > Lamonts. > > I still don't understand which figures you find to be inconsistent with > Comcille's approximate birth date. > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com > Sent: 26 September 2011 01:38 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Clan Donnachaidh M222 > > > > In a message dated 9/25/2011 2:31:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: > > I'm not familiar with the McGee utilities - mostly I write my own code. > However, I can see that it's based on the infinite alleles model, which in > my opinion is the equivalent of basing conclusions on the theories of the > flat earth society. I see also that it's a 37-marker analysis. I think the > FSE would approve of that too. > > You can chose either the infinite alleles model or the or the hybrid > mutation modal in the McGee utility. Infinite alleles is the default. I > normally check off the hybrid modal since that's compatible with FTDNA. > However > I do not remember which one I used for that run. > > I checked the 37-67 marker section of the Duncan/McConachie section and saw > no differences from the modal so I used 37 markers to gain a larger > selection of samples. > > I found a Lamont sample in your name on Ysearch the other day. He does > not appear to be M222. Who might that be? > > > John > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3919 - Release Date: 09/25/11 > >

[So I take it that Lamont sample is the one with the impeccable pedigree from a Lamont chieftain of which you spoke a month ago or so?] Yes. I'm pretty sure he is descended from the Barons of Coustoun. I should be able to confirm that or refute that in time. I have the contact details of an American whose immigrant ancestor (who arrived in Charleston in 1711), had Coustoun as a middle name. The father of the immigrant ancestor, was a Neil McPhadrick, probably the 7th Baron. Unfortunately, the American fellow's father is very ill and genealogy is the last thing on his mind. Dunbars and Robinsons? Sure, I'll have a look, but which Robinsons? (you said "some of the Robinsons"). Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 26 September 2011 16:38 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Clan Donnachaidh M222 In a message dated 9/26/2011 1:54:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: I still don't understand which figures you find to be inconsistent with Comcille's approximate birth date. You misread that. Look at the Dunbars and some of the Robinsons. Does that seem consistent with a common ancestor cv. 1300-1400? So I take it that Lamont sample is the one with the impeccable pedigree from a Lamont chieftain of which you spoke a month ago or so? John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I put a copy of the Clan Donnachaidh DNA project online if anyone would prefer that to the McGee utility version. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ClanDonnachaidh.xls_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ClanDonnachaidh.xls) John

In a message dated 9/26/2011 11:06:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Dunbars and Robinsons? Sure, I'll have a look, but which Robinsons? (you said "some of the Robinsons"). There's a cluster of Robinsons who match the DNA of line of the Robertsons of Struan. Three in the line of the chieftains have been tested. 100011 168022 132773 96449 31658 73366 167928 31363 51209 26578 The first Duncan from whom the clan is named lived about 1300 AD. So the surname could not have existed before that. I saw references from 1391 that talked about Duncansons (Wyntoun's history) - the Robertson surname was adopted sometime in 1400s by the chiefly line. Some also took the name Reid later -not sure exactly when. Someone else may have the exact dates. Supposedly these are descendents of Crinan, Ahbot of Dunkeld, d. 1045. The Dunbars also claim some kind of descent from Crinan, but I have no idea what. Some son of Crinan, I think. When comparing the chieftain Robertsons to the Duncans and McConaghys, a name said to derive from the Clan Donnachaidh, I wondered if the data really supported a descent from a common ancestor ca. 1300-1400 AD. Also the Reids. The Dunbars are extremely distant from any other sample in the project. I have this data in a spreadsheet if anyone would like a copy. As yet I have no firm opinions on the DNA myself. The main Duncan/McConaghy cluster is tightly related with about 5-6 off modal markers. One of these is also found in the Robertson chieftains. John

Hi David He's the 3rd last haplotype in the Lamont public site at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/Pframe7.h tm Scroll down the surname projects in the column on the left till you find Lamont. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J David Grierson Sent: 26 September 2011 12:22 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Clan Donnachaidh M222 Sandy, 203128 doesn't appear on the Lamont site as far as I can see (unless there are more than one). However, if your man is 9/15, he is of interest as a possible pre M222. A variance of six with M222/L21 is relatively unusual. What then of his other (M222) off-modal markers. If he has, say, twelve or more additional off-modals, he is a candidate for a very early M222 or a pre M222 - and I'm now accepting the M222 is 3000 years old thesis in this respect. As you know, my cluster (at about -1000 years) usually has almost the complete set of M222 identifiers, but also consistently about nine additional off-modals. I think we should now be working towards trying to establish the latest pre M222 that we can. Perhaps, though, we don't have enough continental information yet. David Grierson On 26/09/2011 4:53 PM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > [I found a Lamont sample in your name on Ysearch the other day. He does > not appear to be M222. Who might that be?] > > It's probably Lamont, kit number 203128 on the Lamont site. > > He may be M222 but he's not obviously so. I think he matches 9/15 of the > markers that distinguish M222 from L21 and he hasn't had his haplotype > tested. His roots go back to Argyllshire, and he has a rock-solid pedigree > that goes back to a birth in 1710 registered in Inverkip. He's one > generation away from proving that he's descended from the McPhadrick > Lamonts. > > I still don't understand which figures you find to be inconsistent with > Comcille's approximate birth date. > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com > Sent: 26 September 2011 01:38 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Clan Donnachaidh M222 > > > > In a message dated 9/25/2011 2:31:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: > > I'm not familiar with the McGee utilities - mostly I write my own code. > However, I can see that it's based on the infinite alleles model, which in > my opinion is the equivalent of basing conclusions on the theories of the > flat earth society. I see also that it's a 37-marker analysis. I think the > FSE would approve of that too. > > You can chose either the infinite alleles model or the or the hybrid > mutation modal in the McGee utility. Infinite alleles is the default. I > normally check off the hybrid modal since that's compatible with FTDNA. > However > I do not remember which one I used for that run. > > I checked the 37-67 marker section of the Duncan/McConachie section and saw > no differences from the modal so I used 37 markers to gain a larger > selection of samples. > > I found a Lamont sample in your name on Ysearch the other day. He does > not appear to be M222. Who might that be? > > > John > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3919 - Release Date: 09/25/11 > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 9/26/2011 1:54:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: I still don't understand which figures you find to be inconsistent with Comcille's approximate birth date. You misread that. Look at the Dunbars and some of the Robinsons. Does that seem consistent with a common ancestor cv. 1300-1400? So I take it that Lamont sample is the one with the impeccable pedigree from a Lamont chieftain of which you spoke a month ago or so? John

[I found a Lamont sample in your name on Ysearch the other day. He does not appear to be M222. Who might that be?] It's probably Lamont, kit number 203128 on the Lamont site. He may be M222 but he's not obviously so. I think he matches 9/15 of the markers that distinguish M222 from L21 and he hasn't had his haplotype tested. His roots go back to Argyllshire, and he has a rock-solid pedigree that goes back to a birth in 1710 registered in Inverkip. He's one generation away from proving that he's descended from the McPhadrick Lamonts. I still don't understand which figures you find to be inconsistent with Comcille's approximate birth date. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 26 September 2011 01:38 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Clan Donnachaidh M222 In a message dated 9/25/2011 2:31:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: I'm not familiar with the McGee utilities - mostly I write my own code. However, I can see that it's based on the infinite alleles model, which in my opinion is the equivalent of basing conclusions on the theories of the flat earth society. I see also that it's a 37-marker analysis. I think the FSE would approve of that too. You can chose either the infinite alleles model or the or the hybrid mutation modal in the McGee utility. Infinite alleles is the default. I normally check off the hybrid modal since that's compatible with FTDNA. However I do not remember which one I used for that run. I checked the 37-67 marker section of the Duncan/McConachie section and saw no differences from the modal so I used 37 markers to gain a larger selection of samples. I found a Lamont sample in your name on Ysearch the other day. He does not appear to be M222. Who might that be? John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 9/25/2011 2:31:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: I'm not familiar with the McGee utilities - mostly I write my own code. However, I can see that it's based on the infinite alleles model, which in my opinion is the equivalent of basing conclusions on the theories of the flat earth society. I see also that it's a 37-marker analysis. I think the FSE would approve of that too. You can chose either the infinite alleles model or the or the hybrid mutation modal in the McGee utility. Infinite alleles is the default. I normally check off the hybrid modal since that's compatible with FTDNA. However I do not remember which one I used for that run. I checked the 37-67 marker section of the Duncan/McConachie section and saw no differences from the modal so I used 37 markers to gain a larger selection of samples. I found a Lamont sample in your name on Ysearch the other day. He does not appear to be M222. Who might that be? John

Hi John [Some of the numbers I'm seeing in the TMRCA section are not consistent with that date (700 years ago). Columcille lived 521-597 or more in the 1400 year range.] I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Could you be a bit more specific? I'm not familiar with the McGee utilities - mostly I write my own code. However, I can see that it's based on the infinite alleles model, which in my opinion is the equivalent of basing conclusions on the theories of the flat earth society. I see also that it's a 37-marker analysis. I think the FSE would approve of that too. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 25 September 2011 07:30 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Clan Donnachaidh M222 I just threw up a McGee utility comparison of all the M222 in the Clan Donnachaidh project plus the M222 Dunbars from Ysearch. http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/Clanduncan.html Anybody see anything?

Conall Cremthainne is Conall Gulban? (Byrne, Mac Shamhrain & Breathnach) But what about Brian Lacey???? The number of the alledged sons of Niall increased during the period in which the Ui Neill dominated, as other ethnic groups came under the sphere of influence of the Ui Neill and created a Ui Neill-identity by politically claiming their ancestor as a son of Niall. However, it seems fairly certain that there was an early core Ui Neill grouping onto which these later accretions were grafted. This core group probably included the descendants of Loegaire, Coipre, Fiachu, and Conall (the eminent Irish historian Ailbhe Mac Shamhrain has contended that the two putative sons of Niall named Conall, namely Conall Gulban and Conall Cremthainne, were one and the same person). The Genealogy Charts from Edel Breathnach's The Kingship and Landscape of Tara, Four Courts Press, 2005, pp. 344-345, 350-351 have a question mark saying Cremthainne & Gulban same person? Edel Bhreathnach is an Irish historian and academic. If you have a chance, check out the book. Now Francis John Byrne (2005), the eminent Irish historian, is of the opinion that Conall Gulban and Conall Cremthainne are the same individual. He says Cremthainne is thought to be a reflection of 8th century political politics. Breathnach's charts conform with the persuasion of Mac Shamhrain and Byrne that Cremthainne is Gulban. Thus Conall Gulban would be progenitor of both Cenel Conaill and Clann Cholmain. Ailbhe Mac Shamhrain, noted Irish medieval historian and celticist, in his Medieval Ireland An Encyclopedia, Sean Duffy, Ailbhe MacShamhraine & James Moynes, CRC Press, 2005, p 810 has argued that the two putative sons of Niall, namely Conall Gulban and Conall Cremthainne were one and the same person, p. 810. See also MacShamhrain 'Nebulae discutiuntur?". Francis John Byrne has postulated that Cremthainne was an 8th century political creation in Irish Kings and High-Kings, 2005, p. XVII. Guess what, now Wikipediad has jumped in on it! So has Facebook, Inforapid Knowledge Portal & What-Where-How In-Depth Knowledge website that Ancestry.com advertises on. There are at least a few lesser known websites that say the same - Conall Gulban and Conall Cremthainne are probably the same person and usually site Byrne. Thus, these three books by MacShamhrain, Byrne & Breathnach came out in 2005 and have influenced current thought. The websites cited say Conall Gulban is himself (if one checks under Conall Gulban), but the above cited say Cremthainne is same person as Gulban (if one checks under Cremthainne). Now Brian Lacey comes around in his Cenel Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms AD 500 - 800, in 2006 (a year after the three listed books), saying on p 165: "there appears to be no evidence that any of the rulers of the Donegal kingdoms were related by blood to Niall Noigiallach or to the Ui Neill" ."Niall Noigiallach probably flourished about the middle of the fifth century and may himself not have 'ruled over anything more than an ordinary tuath. Although in the earlier traditions Niall is credited with seven sons whose floruits were about 470-520, at least three of those: Conall Gulban, Enna and Eogan, were not related to him at all." Oh really? So, did Lacey miss the boat or is Lacey a genius, a lone voice in the wilderness? It appears from our 2011 websites that Lacey's lone voice in the wilderness (and by at least 3 critical book reviews about his opinion on the Cenel Conaill by academia) has been ignored.

>>My understanding is that the current chief has tested. I would assume the result is confidential; however, in the history I posted link to it states his result were similar to Nial meaning he's M222, but not necessarily of the classic Nial modal. Current Chief plus one at least: (I also see Robertson of Calvine also conforms to NW Ireland modal) NEWS FROM THE CLAN DONNACHAIDH DNA PROJECT 2006 no.1: "So far we have only two results from people with an established line of descent from the chiefs of Clan Donnachaidh. These results support a descent from Niall of the Nine Hostages, which would also support Skene’s theory. However, given the lack of information about the earls of Atholl in the 12th and 13th centuries and the very large number of King Niall’s descendants, other possibilities should not be ruled out. In the last Clan Donnachaidh annual James Irvine Robertson argued for a return to traditional clan histories, which recalled a link with the Macdonalds, a link that was also recorded by the Macdonalds. A different explanation will have to found for any Macdonald connection – genetic testing has revealed that the Macdonald chiefs descended from Somerled are Norse in origin (R1a) and thus not even in the same haplogroup as King Niall (R1b). However, there may still be some link with the Macdonalds, combined with a later male-line descent from Niall than the descent from Crinan. Descent from Crinan is undoubtedly part of the chiefly-line genealogy, but this could also have passed through the female line." http://dsa.duncanroots.com/Clan_News/DNAreport2006.01.htm NEWS FROM THE CLAN DONNACHAIDH DNA PROJECT 2006 no.2: "Known chiefly-line descendants come into the first group in the table below. At present we can conclude only that the people in this group share their results because they are descended or likely to be descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages or other people in his family 393 390 19 391 388 392 1. 13 25 14 11 12 14

I just threw up a McGee utility comparison of all the M222 in the Clan Donnachaidh project plus the M222 Dunbars from Ysearch. http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/Clanduncan.html Anybody see anything? I'm not sure yet but it appears the Robertson chieftains tested are in a group beginning with 100011 Robertson and go down to 26578 Robertson. They're listed in this group in the project Robertson R1b OGAP08 AB: M222 "Niall of the Nine Hostages" I don't have a link up yet on the site to this file. The Duncan/McConnachie cluster show up as a closely related group in the genetic distance section. Bear in mind that the very first Duncan lived in the 1300s. Some of the numbers I'm seeing in the TMRCA section are not consistent with that date (700 years ago). Columcille lived 521-597 or more in the 1400 year range. John .

Bravo, Bernard!!! In a message dated 9/23/2011 7:17:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: The idea of a Scottish derbhfine system is the basis of G.A. MacGregor 2006 justification of Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl. I learn from G.A. MacGregor that in medieval Scotland there was land deemed heritable only in the male line, i.e., could not be passed by marriage, but held by derbhfine. It is through the continued ownership of Glenerochie that G.A. MacGregor makes the case for Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl http://design15.clickstay.net/supplement/Mag2007.pdf My understanding is that the current chief has tested. I would assume the result is confidential; however, in the history I posted link to it states his result were *similar to Nial* meaning he's M222, but not necessarily of the classic Nial modal. Of these McC & Duncan matches: I would be interested in seeing your analysis if you would like to share!!! (Now what I would like to see is analysis of the DNA. I know there is a large group of Duncans who match McConnachies. There is a second group of M222 Duncans from Scotland who do not match. There's also a second group of McConchies who do not match. These are the McConchies Lawrence Dill is working on linked because of a possible ReCLOH at YCA11ab. The DNA is listed on the M222 web site. Each of these surnames apparently have two different unrelated M222 origins. I took a cursory look at the Robertson DNA. There's lots of M222 there. But I did not see any that matched the Duncan/McConnachie cluster. I do not yet know how well they match each other. There are a few M222 Reids. But none that I thougth were a good match to the Duncans/McConachies. A few share the 385=11-12 with the group but miss at other off modal markers. In the next few days I'll try and capture all the Robertson samples from the web site)." **With the help of John & Bill I took a look at the three M222 McC groups and some Duncan M222 from group B -- ie the identicle matching Haplotypes were entered only once, and thus not all test results with their 37 marker strings were entered. The Nial group of McC's is not related to the others recently; however, there seems to be a genetic intersection between one McC in M222 B and the Nial M222 McC perhaps as long ago as about 2,800 years using Bills method; another method look may reveal an intersection not that far back or similar. Similarly McC M222 group A intersections with these Duncan M222 group B seems to begin around 1,125 years ago, another at about 779 years ago, with the most recent between 300 -- 500 years ago. After reviewing these I concluded that it would be good to look at the entire clan M222 data base among all the surnames represented. Your conclusions seems to agree with mine that a good look is in order. To that end, I'll repeat another if not full of work idea of pulling M222 out of all the different Scottish Clan projects and taking a look. The results may be very useful and there would be likely a thousand or more who claim the various Scottish Clan associations already testing out M222 -- that is just a guess. Susan

> From: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 00:15:07 +0000 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Crinan ancestry is subject to debate > > > > > Iain, I think there may be a difference between "royal" lines in Scotland > > based on primogeniture and the derbhfine system in Ireland. I can see any > > one "royal" line dying out - but not so much a system based on cousins. > > The idea of a Scottish derbhfine system is the basis of G.A. MacGregor 2006 justification of Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl. I learn from G.A. MacGregor that in medieval Scotland there was land deemed heritable only in the male line, i.e., could not be passed by marriage, but held by derbhfine. It is through the continued ownership of Glenerochie that G.A. MacGregor makes the case for Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl > http://design15.clickstay.net/supplement/Mag2007.pdf > R1b1c7 Research and Links: Martin MacGregor discusses both primogeniture and extinction of line issues in his section about the factors that led to the writing of the Gaelic genealogies. 'Given that tanistry definitely survived into the seventeenth century among professional kindreds, it could be that in some of our earlier texts, historians were responding to their own age by seeking to elide tanistry from the record, in order to elevate primogeniture as the historical norm'. Iain