I haven't been focused much on Mag Nuadat (southern Ireland) for I thought I knew the M222+ population i.e. Dal Cuinn. However the M222+ O'Nuallain of Fothairt Fhea (the barony of Forth in Co, Carlow) has made me wonder about other possible populations in the south. For there are also the Fothairt in Chairn in the barony of Forth in Co. Wexford, i.e. those chiefs where the O'Lorcain. The Fothairt Airbrech, near Bri Ele (Croghan Hill), in King's Co., and Fothairt Maige Itha, in North Wexford or South Wicklow. I find northwest of the Dessi baronies (i.e. Vassals to Cenel Fiachach Suige and Ui Eoghain Fhinn Fothaidh) in Co. Wexford there are baronies of 'Ui Fathaidh agus O Fathaidh,' i.e. the barronies of Iffa and Offa in Co. Tipperary and to the east of the Dessi is the Barony of Forth in Co. Wexford and again named for the O Fathaidh. Plus northwest of Dessi baronies are the Uibh Eoghain Fhinn, those chief family were the O'Neills. Another family was the O'Mearadhaigh (Eoganacht in origin?) of Ui Fathaidh of southern Tipperary. This last family is linked to the north Tipperary (once part of the Ui Neill lands) family of O'Meara of Rosarguid, chief of Ui Fathaidh, Ui Neill, and Ui Eochaidh Finn, in the barony of Upper Ormond. There is also mention that the territory Ui Fathaidh of Tipperary is now placed within Upperthird and Middlethird baronies (Gaultiere was formerly named Offath), so Tipperary and Waterford have numerous kinships claiming ties with Dal Conn? Does someone know more? From: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [R-M222] Laud 610 Leinster and Munster M222+ families Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 19:49:12 +0000 >From O'Hart: 80. Quintus Centibellis (or Conn of the Hundred Battles*) : his son. This Conn was so called from hundreds of battles by him fought and won: viz., sixty battles against Cathirius Magnus or Cahir Mor, King of Leinster and the 109th monarch of Ireland, whom he slew and succeeded in the monarchy; one hundred battles against the Ulsterians; and one hundred more in Munster against Owen Mor or Mogha Nua-Dhad their king; who, notwithstanding, forced the said Conn to an equal division of the Kingdom with him. He had two brothers, named Eochy Fionn Fohart and Fiacha Suidhe, who, to make way for themselves, murdered two of their brother's sons, named Conla and Crionna; but they were by the third son Airt-EanFhear banished, first into Leinster, and then into Munster, where they lived near Cashel. From Eocha Fionn Fohart descended O'Nowlan or Nolan of Fowerty (or Foharta) in Lease (or Leix), and St. Bridget, Patroness of Kildare; from Fiacha Suidhe are O'Dolan, O'Brick, of Dunbrick, and O'Faelan (Phelan, or Whelan) of Dun Faelan, near Cashel. Quintus Centibellis reigned thirty-five years; and by a stratagem was treacherously slain by the King of Ulster, A.D. 157. The O'Nolan DNA website says "Based on Y-DNA analysis of the Nolan DNA results Lineage III - Barony of Forth, Carlow Clan O'Nolan (Tullow, Kellistown, Ballon Hill, or the area of Templepeter cemetery) appears to be the original lineage of descent from Nualan or Nuallain of Eocha Fionn Fohart, the brother of Conn Céad Cathach (Conn Cead-Catha) or Conn of the Hundred Battles. Eocha Fionn Fohart was ancestor of Carlow Clan (O'Nowlan) O'Nolan. Unless, of course, another Carlow Nolan lineage emerges through future Y-DNA testing and the results prove a closer genetic match to the Northwest Irish (Niall of the Nine Hostages) R1b1c7 haplotype." http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/nolan/results As for Fiacha Suidhe descendants I do find one NW modal Wheelahan from Nenagh, Co. Tipperary and more NW modal Whelehans in Co. Laois.

For a start: Mag Nuadat = Maynooth in North County Kildare, not to far from Dublin. On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com>wrote: > Mag Nuadat

In a message dated 10/3/2011 12:12:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: Am interested to learn more about this M222+ population. However troubled by there origin for I have not heard of the O'Kelly and O'Madden of Ui Maine being M222+, its been the opposite to my understanding? I don't think you can make a case for M222 among the Ui Maine of Connacht without taking O'Kelly and O'Madden, two of the main chieftains, into account. The Muinter Lorcan mentioned in the Book of Ui Maine was a line of the Siol-Anmchadha, the same tribe the O'Maddens belonged to. I looked on Ysearch and didn't see many Madden entries - none appeared to be M222. There are 10 Kelly samples from Connacht in the Trinity spreadsheet - none are M222. The origins of the Ui Maine of Connacht are obscure. I think Bernard in the past has quoted some authority (Byrnes?) who believed they were really Maine mac Neill. That is also the position adopted by the author based on the Lebor Breac, which is referenced in the article but no excerpts are offered in support. The two main origins for the Ui Maine are both pre-Niall and probably suspect. The earliest reference I can find is in Rawlinson B.502 ¶760] Dá mc Fiachach Sraiptene: Muiredach Tírech ocus Domnall a quo Úi Maine Connacht secundum quosdam.[according to some] Then of course you have the traditional pedigree from the Collas. If there is one thing most people I know agree about in Irish DNA it's that the descendants of the Collas (Airgialla) are not M222 even though their pedigree says they should be. The Ui Maine mac Neill should be M222 yet there are few samples out there to support that. I saw reference to some Fox samples lately and checked myself. That is presumably a surname that may have come from the O'Kearney chieftains of the tribe whose chieftain was called 'the Fox'. There are tons of Foxes in Ireland in the Griffith's. There is one M222 Fox in the M222 project but his origins are listed as unknown. Most of the Foxes on Ysearch are not M222. So I can't make much of this. John

Sundry Issues, a partial Apology, and the Historical Misconception of Bill and John I just had an unwelcome altercation with Bill Howard. See the 2 messages of Bill Howard and the 2 of Yair Davidiy in the thread: Re: [R-M222] Speculations on Celtic Tribes-Notions On the whole obviously "Yours Truly" was the wronged party. On one point however I seem to have been mistaken. I said: # This is not the first time you have been hounding me on DNA forums, is it Bill? You have a habit of attempting to instill prejudice against me and not letting my points be heard on their own merits. # This was a mistake. I must have confused Bill Howard with someone else from the list regarding this matter. Bill Howard apparently had not hounded my august being in the past. On this point (and this point alone) I apologize. Bill Howard kept referring to a paper. We tracked the document down. A Dated Phylogenetic Tree of M222 SNP Haplotypes: Exploring the DNA of Irish and Scottish Surnames and Possible Ties to Niall and the Uí Néill Kindred -- William E. Howard III and John D. McLaughlin -- [1]http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Pa per.pdf I looked at it. I will look at it again later. On one point at least however they seem to be misleading. The paper says: # From archeological evidence centered on the spread of bronze workings, males whose haplotypes fall within the R1b haplogroup that contains the M222 SNP had already settled around the Alps by 2300 BC. They had reached Iberia by 2250 BC, Britain by 2100 BC and Ireland by 2000 BC. Although there may be some uncertainty in the dates, the east-to-west migration pattern seems well established, with both Britain and Ireland having at least a small, primitive population by about 2000 BC. These times were well before the arrival of seaborne explorers, pillagers and traders from the Mediterranean or Scandinavia. # It then goes on to give a whole archaeological scenario dating phenomena that we consider to be recent way way back in the distant past. This however is not consistent with the moist recent DNA findings. There is No real evidence that R1b existed in Europe before ca. 1000 BCE. See: We Are Not Our Ancestors: Evidence for Discontinuity between Prehistoric and Modern Europeans Ellen Levy-Coffman [2]http://www.slideshare.net/Pammy98/we-are-not-our-ancestors-evidence-for-d iscontinuity-between Facial Skeletons Show that Modern Europeans NOT Descended from Stone or Bronze Age Europe! Noriko Seguchi, Conrad B. Quintyn , Sherry C. Fox , A. Russell Nelson , Sotiris K. Manolis , and Pan Qifeng [3]http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_1.htm R1b1b2 in Europe dating rethink [4]http://dna-forums.org/index.php/blog/2/entry-164-r1b1b2-in-europe-dating- rethink/ Wave-of-Advance Models of the Diffusion of the Y Chromosome Haplogroup R1b1b2 in Europe [5]http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.002159 2 Per Sjodin1*, Olivier Francois2 1 Department of Evolutionary Biology, Evolutionary Biology Centre, Uppsala University, Norbyvagen, Uppsala, Sweden, 2 University Joseph Fourier Grenoble, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, TIMC-IMAG UMR 5525, Mathematical and Computational Biology, Grenoble, France Anyway all this is taking us away from considerations of dna-r1b1c7 per se. My original post however was pertinent but not crucial. We can get by without discussing the matter. Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel. PS. Regarding what is pertinent and what is not Bill Howard did take the trouble to send me off the list a link to an article he had written against the State of Israel in which I live. Bill said: PS - Read my essay, below. It shows what I believe to be a valid interpretation of the facts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- Here is an essay on the Middle East that was published over 7 years ago. It remains valid today. [6]http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/archives_roll/2004_10-12/howard_root/ho ward_root.html Wonders will never cease. As far as I am concerned all the Palestinians should be re-settled in the west. How many will Dublin take? Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel. References 1. http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Paper.pdf 2. http://www.slideshare.net/Pammy98/we-are-not-our-ancestors-evidence-for-discontinuity-between 3. http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_1.htm 4. http://dna-forums.org/index.php/blog/2/entry-164-r1b1b2-in-europe-dating-rethink/ 5. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0021592 6. http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/archives_roll/2004_10-12/howard_root/howard_root.html

Am interested to learn more about this M222+ population. However troubled by there origin for I have not heard of the O'Kelly and O'Madden of Ui Maine being M222+, its been the opposite to my understanding? I find the reference to Muinter Lorcain in Tribes and Customs of Hy Many Commonly Called O'Kellys Country transation by John O'Donovan. Yet when I found Tuath Muinter Muireagain (Rathcavan parish) in Co. Antrim, I didn't find any O'Muireagain. I also haven't been able to find any early reference to O'Lorcains west of the Shannon i.e. within Ui Maine lands?

At 01:48 PM 10/3/2011, Bill wrote: >Mr. Davidiy, a poster from Jerusalem, Israel, >wrote earlier: "I deal in Biblical Exegesis >(i.e., interpretations of Scripture), in >legends, in historical studies, in obscure >facts, and other such matters. My researches >would not be considered academic but rather, in >the eyes of some, those of an eccentric (to be polite about it)." > >Yes, I can see that. Good for you. At least there was something I said you did see. >I should have realized that I was dealing with >someone who appears to be dealing with faith >rather than with science. He did put into his >subject line that his posting dealt with Celtic tribes I did? It is not there Bill. Nowhere in what I wrote is the word Celtic to be found. Is this an example of you blind faith in the unknown Bill? seeing things that are not there? >— much after the appearance of M222. >I note that Mr. Davidiy has lectured on the >whereabouts of the lost tribes of Israel and has >apparently been trying to connect the carriers >of the M222 SNP with his beliefs. See http://britam.org/ I wrote a note. I did not directly mention my beliefs nor did I include my URL. You did. What carriers of M222 SNP have I been trying to contact Bill? First you see I mentioned the appearance of Celtic Tribes then you say I have been trying to contact people I do not call ever considering. Are you psychic Bill? Is this the equivalent of a secular Inquisition? Are my private beliefs that I did not mention considered grounds for excommunication? This is not the first time you have been hounding me on DNA forums, is it Bill? You have a habit of attempting to instil prejudice against me and not letting my points be heard on their own merits. Just because I believe that the Ten Tribes are in the west you have decided that I have no right to express any opinion on DNA matters whether I mention my other beliefs or not. This suggest a possible feeling of personal insecurity on your part. It also shows unnecessary negativity and failure to focus on the point under discussion. >I stand by the paper on M222 that John >McLaughlin and I wrote. It deals with genetics and science, not with faith. What paper? What are you talking about Bill? Did I mention a paper? As well as Celts and Ten Tribes and who knows what other things? Now there is a paper? >Mr. Davidiy has tried to make the facts fit his >beliefs. He should tailor his beliefs to fit the >facts. This reminds me of when the Church's >faith in an earth-centric solar system clashed >with the facts put forth by Copernicus that we >live in a sun-centric solar system. The facts won out in the end. Whose facts Bill? You are the Church man, not I. >Let's discuss facts and their interpretation, not matters of faith. >I consider this exchange to be at an end. I said something. You said other things whose pertinence was not very clear to anybody but yourself, if that. Now you are closing the discussion that never really managed to get started because you insisted on going off on a tangent at the very beginning. If you want to get at the truth you have to be prepared to discuss it, to stick to the point, not to engage in ad hominum criticisms, to make yourself clear, to exchange viewpoints and information, and not to throw in the towel as soon as the other side gives back what you were trying to dish out. A little more sensitivity towards others Bill and less seeking offence where no offence was intended. Yair Jerusalem Israel. >- Bye from Bill Howard

At 11:51 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote: >Just some comments on this highly unusual posting. >First, there is no evidence that there was a >great increase in population numbers >attributable to Niall or his descendants over >and above the increase in the general population >of either Ireland or of the world. Note: I am answering your queries/challenges from URLs I picked off the Web. This is in order to save time but academic sources saying the same also exist. R-M222 shows either increase or simply survival rate way beyond that of all others. Otherwise why is this the only group that increased or survived to such a degree whereas all others did not? See: http://www.familytreedna.com/landing/matching-niall.aspx 21% (or more) in Northwest Ireland and ca. 8% in the rest of Ireland. Why do these figures only apply to them? When they began they were one out of a 100,000 or much more (possibly ca. 300,000) and now they are one out of 12. Do these figures not indicate higher survival rates or higher fertility or higher male children ratios? Here it is implied that they all go back to Neil. Other sources stress that the brothers of Neil (the Connachta) were just as important. Either way it is not that far back in time and it only applies to them. >Second, I don't see where you got the number 2-4 >million, only on the male side. What's the reference? This number is quoted often. I am surprised you are not familiar with it. See: Niall of the Nine Hostages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages#cite_note-SundayTimes-13 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The geneticists estimated that there are about 2-3 million males alive today who descend in the male-line from Niall.[14] ^ Battles, Jan (January 15, 2006), "High King Niall: the most fertile man in Ireland", The Sunday Times (Times Newspapers Ltd.), http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article788652.ece, retrieved 2009-08-06 >Third, this so-called dynasty has not been >confirmed by DNA with any degree of certainty. It has been shown to relate to areas controlled by the U Neil and Connachta and on the whole to be associated with their families. >Fourth, the statement that there is, in this >instance, a relatively close correspondence of >genealogical traditions with DNA findings is >both unproven and appears to represent more of a >speculative hope on the part of the poster. It is not something I invented. It is what the academic findings and the popular press reported and still does. e.g. Laoise T. Moore,1,* Brian McEvoy,1,* Eleanor Cape,1 Katharine Simms,2 and Daniel G. Bradley1 A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland 1 Smurfit Institute of Genetics and 2School of Histories and Humanities, Trinity College, Dublin Am. J. Hum. Genet., 78:334-338, 2006 http://www.dnaancestryproject.com/ydna_intro_famous.php?id=niall Quote: It shows a significant association with surnames purported to have descended from the most important and enduring dynasty of early medieval Ireland, the U?Nill. This suggests that such phylogenetic predominance is a biological record of past hegemony and supports the veracity of semimythological early genealogies. >Fifth, there is no evidence, DNA or otherwise, >that they had robust constitutions giving them >more resistance to the vicissitudes of nature >and environment or that they were exceptionally >fertile or lacking in infertile cases. I did not say there was any evidence. I said that these were possibilities that may deserve looking into to. Otherwise how do you explain their relative demographic expansion as compared to others? >Finally, there is no evidence that, over the >long run all of R1b has a greater statistical >male-child predominance. If that were the case >scientists would have shown it by now. Again I merely suggested that this is something that may be worth looking into. It is not my idea. I saw it expressed regarding R1b in general and think it may (or may not) also apply (possibly even more) in this case. > Nor is there a shred of evidence that male > dominance is especially pronounced in R-M222. See the above answer. Has anybody checked this? Have you asked around? Other R-M222 have made comments suggesting this possibility. >And, ….. the Celts came to Ireland after the >origin of M222 -- many hundreds of years afterwards. Maybe. Did I mention Celts? What I wrote is found below. Do you see the word Celts there? >- Bye from Bill Howard Bye to you too. Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel >On Oct 2, 2011, at 5:19 PM, Yair Davidiy wrote: > > > > > Neil or his immediate ancestors are supposed to have lived in ca. 400 > > CE or later. > > Even if we put the date back some what we are still looking for a > > relatively recent historical background. > > > > What is there to explain the great increase of population that > > descendants of Neil benefited from? > > They now number ca. 2 to 4 million or more only on the male side. > > > > This is the only dynasty that was so blessed and whose blessing has > > been confirmed by DNA, assuming DNA is correct. > > [The spread of descendants of Genghis Khan in Asia is another > > possibility but a less certain one.] > > > > Some people would consider this a blessing. > > The blessing is not only in the fact but also in the fact being known > > to those involved. > > > > I deal in Biblical Exegesis, in legends, in historical studies, in > > obscure facts, and other such matters. > > My researches would not be considered academic but rather, in the > > eyes of some, those of an eccentric (to be polite about it.). > > Nevertheless here and there I seem to have come across points that > > have been appreciated by academia. > > > > Anyway, for what it is worth: > > > > In my opinion researchers would do well to keep the following > > possibilities in mind. > > > > Many descendants of Neil would regularly have had more than one wife. > > On the whole their wives must have remained relatively faithful. > > So too, in general they did not involve > themselves with the women of other men. > > > > This explains the relatively close correspondence of genealogical > > traditions with DNA findings. > > It also denotes a consciousness of wanting to expand. > > > > They had robust constitutions giving them more resistance to the > > vicissitudes of nature and environment. > > > > They were exceptionally fertile or else simply exceptionally lacking > > in infertile cases. > > > > It may be that over a long run all of R1b has a greater statistical > > male-child predominance. > > This may be especially pronounced in R-M222. > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > >http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/

Mr. Davidiy, a poster from Jerusalem, Israel, wrote earlier: "I deal in Biblical Exegesis (i.e., interpretations of Scripture), in legends, in historical studies, in obscure facts, and other such matters. My researches would not be considered academic but rather, in the eyes of some, those of an eccentric (to be polite about it)." Yes, I can see that. I should have realized that I was dealing with someone who appears to be dealing with faith rather than with science. He did put into his subject line that his posting dealt with Celtic tribes — much after the appearance of M222. I note that Mr. Davidiy has lectured on the whereabouts of the lost tribes of Israel and has apparently been trying to connect the carriers of the M222 SNP with his beliefs. See http://britam.org/ I stand by the paper on M222 that John McLaughlin and I wrote. It deals with genetics and science, not with faith. Mr. Davidiy has tried to make the facts fit his beliefs. He should tailor his beliefs to fit the facts. This reminds me of when the Church's faith in an earth-centric solar system clashed with the facts put forth by Copernicus that we live in a sun-centric solar system. The facts won out in the end. Let's discuss facts and their interpretation, not matters of faith. I consider this exchange to be at an end. - Bye from Bill Howard

Neil or his immediate ancestors are supposed to have lived in ca. 400 CE or later. Even if we put the date back some what we are still looking for a relatively recent historical background. What is there to explain the great increase of population that descendants of Neil benefited from? They now number ca. 2 to 4 million or more only on the male side. This is the only dynasty that was so blessed and whose blessing has been confirmed by DNA, assuming DNA is correct. [The spread of descendants of Genghis Khan in Asia is another possibility but a less certain one.] Some people would consider this a blessing. The blessing is not only in the fact but also in the fact being known to those involved. I deal in Biblical Exegesis, in legends, in historical studies, in obscure facts, and other such matters. My researches would not be considered academic but rather, in the eyes of some, those of an eccentric (to be polite about it.). Nevertheless here and there I seem to have come across points that have been appreciated by academia. Anyway, for what it is worth: In my opinion researchers would do well to keep the following possibilities in mind. Many descendants of Neil would regularly have had more than one wife. On the whole their wives must have remained relatively faithful. So too, in general they did not involve themselves with the women of other men. This explains the relatively close correspondence of genealogical traditions with DNA findings. It also denotes a consciousness of wanting to expand. They had robust constitutions giving them more resistance to the vicissitudes of nature and environment. They were exceptionally fertile or else simply exceptionally lacking in infertile cases. It may be that over a long run all of R1b has a greater statistical male-child predominance. This may be especially pronounced in R-M222.

Just some comments on this highly unusual posting. First, there is no evidence that there was a great increase in population numbers attributable to Niall or his descendants over and above the increase in the general population of either Ireland or of the world. Second, I don't see where you got the number 2-4 million, only on the male side. What's the reference? Third, this so-called dynasty has not been confirmed by DNA with any degree of certainty. Fourth, the statement that there is, in this instance, a relatively close correspondence of genealogical traditions with DNA findings is both unproven and appears to represent more of a speculative hope on the part of the poster. Fifth, there is no evidence, DNA or otherwise, that they had robust constitutions giving them more resistance to the vicissitudes of nature and environment or that they were exceptionally fertile or lacking in infertile cases. Finally, there is no evidence that, over the long run all of R1b has a greater statistical male-child predominance. If that were the case scientists would have shown it by now. Nor is there a shred of evidence that male dominance is especially pronounced in R-M222. And, ….. the Celts came to Ireland after the origin of M222 -- many hundreds of years afterwards. - Bye from Bill Howard On Oct 2, 2011, at 5:19 PM, Yair Davidiy wrote: > > Neil or his immediate ancestors are supposed to have lived in ca. 400 > CE or later. > Even if we put the date back some what we are still looking for a > relatively recent historical background. > > What is there to explain the great increase of population that > descendants of Neil benefited from? > They now number ca. 2 to 4 million or more only on the male side. > > This is the only dynasty that was so blessed and whose blessing has > been confirmed by DNA, assuming DNA is correct. > [The spread of descendants of Genghis Khan in Asia is another > possibility but a less certain one.] > > Some people would consider this a blessing. > The blessing is not only in the fact but also in the fact being known > to those involved. > > I deal in Biblical Exegesis, in legends, in historical studies, in > obscure facts, and other such matters. > My researches would not be considered academic but rather, in the > eyes of some, those of an eccentric (to be polite about it.). > Nevertheless here and there I seem to have come across points that > have been appreciated by academia. > > Anyway, for what it is worth: > > In my opinion researchers would do well to keep the following > possibilities in mind. > > Many descendants of Neil would regularly have had more than one wife. > On the whole their wives must have remained relatively faithful. > So too, in general they did not involve themselves with the women of other men. > > This explains the relatively close correspondence of genealogical > traditions with DNA findings. > It also denotes a consciousness of wanting to expand. > > They had robust constitutions giving them more resistance to the > vicissitudes of nature and environment. > > They were exceptionally fertile or else simply exceptionally lacking > in infertile cases. > > It may be that over a long run all of R1b has a greater statistical > male-child predominance. > This may be especially pronounced in R-M222. >

A paper from the Larkin DNA Project has been published which speaks to many of the issues found on this list and links some R1b-M222 (formerly known as R1b1c7) lines to specific geographies in Ireland. The paper is titled, "Larkin DNA Project - Ancestral Parish Sampling on the Shannon River" and is available online at http://www.jogg.info/62/files/Larkin.pdf. Some highlights: 1) By instance, 4 of the 14 groups with Irish Larkin ancestry were R1b-M222. But by frequency, the two largest R1b-M222 groups (concentrated in the Shannon River area analogous to ancient Hy Many / Uí Maine) are likely to comprise about 20% of the men with the Larkin surname today. 2) The observed mutation rate of the Larkin R1b-M222 men was much higher than standard estimates. If this phenomenon is true throughout R1b-M222, it implies that the TMRCA is on the shorter end of the range estimates. 3) The DNA observations are consistent with the account of the re-settlement of Connacht by Máine Mór (aka Maine Mor), son of Niall of the Nine Hostages in the 5th century CE contained in An Leabhar Breac - the Speckled Book of Duniry. These findings contradict some of the other annalistic accounts of Máine Mór which were repeated by John O'Donovan et al. The findings also contradict MacLysaght in that Larkins from Counties Tipperary and Galway have the same origin and are not separate septs. 4) Parish-level genealogical information is combined with the Y-STR DNA results, annalistic accounts of the Larkin surname, geographical place names, and the earliest remaining real estate records to identify the Larkin medieval homeland of Muinter Lorcán, in County Galway. 5) Some other Hy Many surname and R1b-M222 data were included in the analysis for contrast (e.g. Egan, Coffey, Cannon, Kelly, & Tracy). Appendix D also contains a re-drawn surname derivation from Máine Mór. Brad Larkin Larkin DNA Project http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/larkin/

_ClanCooper_ (http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/BalderstonHistory/ClanCooper.htm) COOPER / COUPER This name occurs in many guises in nearly every English-speaking county of Scotland and it is also common throughout England and elsewhere for it's origin is largely derived from the occupation of barrel maker. In Scotland it may equally be of local origin in that some originated in or near the town of Cupar in Fife, or from the ancient settlement around the Abbey of Coupar in Angus (Coupar Angus, Perthshire), for in both associations the name is common in early records. Its first appearance seems to be in a Charter dated 1245, and an early widespread distribution is evidenced by a John Cupar holding lands in Aberdeen in 1281, while a Symon Coupare in Berwickshire rendered homage to Edward I of England in 1296. Finla Couper in Belnakeill in Atholl was fined for sheltering outlawed MacGregors in 1613, such occurence being worthy of record in the Register of the Privy Council of Scotland. A family of Coupers held the lands of Gogar near Edinburgh in the 17th century, and of this House, John Couper was created a Baronet of Nova Scotia in 1638, two years before being killed in an explosion which destroyed Douglas Castle during the 'Bishops' Wars'. Sir John's 3rd son settled in Dumbartonshire and from his House came others who settled in the West of Scotland. Amongst others, these families comprised the Coupers of Banheath (Dumbartonshire); of Failford and Smeithston (Ayrshire), and of Ballindalloch (West Stirlingshire). Many changed their spelling to 'Cooper' during the 18th century. In a letter from the 'English' poet William Cowper (1731-1800) he reminded a correspondent that his roots lay in Fife where his line was still extant. Those of the name have never united under a 'chief', nor has any been family been defined as the principal race. Thus lacking a chief it follows that there can be neither Crest Badge, Motto et.al., appropriate for kindred use. There is however a Couper tartan, originally woven by Messrs Peter Macarthur of Hamilton for a family descended from the Coupers of Gogar. It is quite distinctive in its colourings and appears to have been copied from an old shawl.

Sorry correction y-Search W5HQS Duncan Scotland 1325141111121212111214281791111112515183015151617111019231716191738401212 closely matches me gene

I correct myself Fleet Cooper does account clearly corresponds to the FTDNA kit 2751 I recenlly discovered Ashley Coopers are originally from Scotland Father John Cooper b. 1568 Edinburgh, Midlothian, , Scotland. 17 Feb 1594 RM-222 cooper are from Scotland lines up really close with our D Ashley Duncan DNA , at least in the same Ball Park! as my Ashley line the following Y-search research I did back in 2007 before I discovered recently the Ashley Coopers originated from Edinburgh, Midlothian Scotland 1594 TWS6S Duncan galston ayrshire, Scotland closely matches me Gene Ashley ySearch KRWQ5CooperScotland 1325141111131212121314291891011112515182915161717 HJSHQ DuncanScotland 1325141111121212111214281791111112515183015151617111119231716191738401212 TWS6S Duncan galston ayrshire, Scotland 1324151111141212131312301991011112515192815161717 W5HQS Duncan Scotland 1325141111121212111214281791111112515183015151617111019231716191738401212 Z6HBV Duncan Scotland 132414111114121212131329179911112515192915161717 Name at Birth: John of Rockburne Cooper Birth: 1598 - Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, England Marriage: 1 JAN 1617 - Dorset, England Death: 23 MAR 1631 - Rockburne, Sham, Dorset, England Gender: Male Edit Marriage(s)Add a MarriageMarriages of John of Rockburne Cooper Ann Elizabeth Ashleyb. 1602 Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, Englandd. 20 JUL 1628 Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, England Marriage: Edit ChildrenAdd a ChildChildren of John of Rockburne Cooper Children with Ann Elizabeth Ashleyb. 1602 Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, Englandd. 20 JUL 1628 Winterborne Abbas, St Giles, Dorset, England George Ashley Cooperb. 22 Jul 1621 St Giles, Dorset, , Englandd. 28 Jan 1682 Stratford, Warwickshire, , England Anthony Ashley Cooperb. 22 JUN 1621 Wimborne, St Giles, Dorset, Englandd. 22 JAN 1683 Amsterdam, Holland Philippa Cooperb. 1624 Rockbourne, Hampshire, , Englandd. 20 May 1701 Mitchall, Surrey, , England Lady Jane Cooperb. ABT 1627 Lancashire, Englandd. 20 JUL 1682 Lancaster, , Virginia, USA Edit ParentsAdd a ParentParents of John of Rockburne Cooper FatherJohn Cooperb. 1568 Edinburgh, Midlothian, , Scotlandd. 17 Feb 1594 Little Harwood, Buckinghamshire, , England MotherMartha Skuttb. 1550 Drew, Somerset, , Englandd. 1610 ENGLAND

Hello there, Not sure if you got my message from yesterday. This Fleet Cooper ySearch account clearly corresponds to the FTDNA kit 2751 whose results you can see here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx?section=yresults As you can see this individual is known to be in a specific branch of the L-21 Y-DNA tree, namely they have tested positive for L21+ DF21+ Z246+ DF5+. Whereas M222, the branch which is the subject of this mailing list, is another parallel branch of L21. regards, Steve On 30 September 2011 15:46, <GAshley923@aol.com> wrote: > > ySearch > > > > > A Free Public Service from Family Tree DNANeed Help? Forgot > Password?Disclaimer > > Displaying User ID: R7DQX > > > Alphabetical List of Last Names > Last Names Beginning with C > Last Names > Matching "Cooper" > Displaying User > > DYS 393DYS 390DYS 19/394DYS 391DYS 385aDYS 385bDYS 426DYS 388DYS 439DYS > 389-1 > 13241411111512121314 > DYS 392DYS 389-2DYS 458DYS 459aDYS 459bDYS 455DYS 454DYS 447DYS 437DYS 448 > 1330179101111251519 > DYS 449DYS 464aDYS 464bDYS 464cDYS 464dDYS 460GATA H4YCA IIaYCA IIbDYS > 456 > 29151516161011192316 > DYS 607DYS 576DYS 570CDY aCDY bDYS 442DYS 438 > 15181636371212 > > Haplogroup:R1b1b2a1b5 (tested) > Last name:Cooper > Variant spellings: > > Tested with:Family Tree DNA > Contact person:Daniel Cooper Contact this user > > Most distant known paternal ancestor on the direct male line > First Name:Fleet > Last Name:Cooper > Year Born:About 1722 > Year Died:About 1795 > Country of Origin:Virginia, USA > Latitude: > Longitude: > > > Additional information about Paternal Line: > > > > Alphabetical List of Last Names > Last Names Beginning with C > Last Names > Matching "Cooper" > Displaying User > > > > Home Create a New User Search for Genetic Matches Search by > Last Name Edit an Existing User Alphabetical List of Last Names > All Contents Copyright 2003 Ysearch.org and Genealogy by Genetics, Ltd. > and shall not be reproduced without written authorization > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

ySearch A Free Public Service from Family Tree DNANeed Help? Forgot Password?Disclaimer Displaying User ID: R7DQX Alphabetical List of Last Names > Last Names Beginning with C > Last Names Matching "Cooper" > Displaying User DYS 393DYS 390DYS 19/394DYS 391DYS 385aDYS 385bDYS 426DYS 388DYS 439DYS 389-1 13241411111512121314 DYS 392DYS 389-2DYS 458DYS 459aDYS 459bDYS 455DYS 454DYS 447DYS 437DYS 448 1330179101111251519 DYS 449DYS 464aDYS 464bDYS 464cDYS 464dDYS 460GATA H4YCA IIaYCA IIbDYS 456 29151516161011192316 DYS 607DYS 576DYS 570CDY aCDY bDYS 442DYS 438 15181636371212 Haplogroup:R1b1b2a1b5 (tested) Last name:Cooper Variant spellings: Tested with:Family Tree DNA Contact person:Daniel Cooper Contact this user Most distant known paternal ancestor on the direct male line First Name:Fleet Last Name:Cooper Year Born:About 1722 Year Died:About 1795 Country of Origin:Virginia, USA Latitude: Longitude: Additional information about Paternal Line: Alphabetical List of Last Names > Last Names Beginning with C > Last Names Matching "Cooper" > Displaying User Home Create a New User Search for Genetic Matches Search by Last Name Edit an Existing User Alphabetical List of Last Names All Contents Copyright 2003 Ysearch.org and Genealogy by Genetics, Ltd. and shall not be reproduced without written authorization

Sorry, just jumping into this discussion. If this is the same Fleet Cooper, Sr. who is the most distant known ancestor for FTDNA kit 2751, the individual in question has haplotype R-DF5, which is part of the recently-discovered and very large R-DF21 subtree below R-L21 (aka R1b1b2a1b5). More specifically Cooper is actually in a very small clade below R-DF5 called R-L627, which he shares with a group of Reynolds. Their common ancestor probably dates from the medieval period. The DF21 subtree is known to be independent of M222. Steve On 22 September 2011 07:08, <GAshley923@aol.com> wrote: > > > _http://files.usgwarchives.net/nc/wayne/heritage/cooper.txt_ > (http://files.usgwarchives.net/nc/wayne/heritage/cooper.txt) > > > The Rev. Fleet Cooper, Sr., (1722-1795) was a pioneer Baptist minister in > Sampson and Duplin Counties and was a prominent political figure during > the > American Revolution. According to a reliable genealogist, the Coopers > were > descended from at least four of the Barons who signed the Magna Carta and > Fleet Cooper was descended from a brother of Anthony Ashley Cooper (Earl > of > Shaftsbury), who was one of the Lords Proprietors who were granted the > Carolinas in 1663 by Charles II Haplogroup: R1b1b2a1b5 (tested) Last > name: Cooper Variant spellings: Tested with: Family Tree DNA Contact > person: Daniel Cooper _Contact this user_ > ( > http://www.ysearch.org/alphalist_view.asp?uid=nq89f&letter=C&lastname=Cooper&viewuid=R7DQX&p=0# > ) > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

It may be of interest that the M222 Dunbars in Lineage 2 carry 5 of the 9/111 off-modal markers in the "Nith" cluster, suggesting a linkage with the Grierson/Amuligane families pre1000AD. They also carry 9 or 10/111 off-modals of their own not seen in Grierson supporting a separation about 1000 years ago. David Grierson On 27/09/2011 10:47 PM, Debra Dunbar-Nowell wrote: > I can quote from a recent publication about the ancient Dunbar lineage which > may or may not shed light on the possible connection between the Dunbars and > Crinan. > > Taken from: "Mighty Subjects - The Dunbar Earls in Scotland c1072-1289" by > Elsa Hamilton published 2010 Glasgow Scotland. > > Elsa is affiliated with the Paradox of Medieval Scotland Project: > http://www.poms.ac.uk/ > > Pg 7 in reference to the 1st Gospatric of Dunbar c1072: > > "Who was he, this Gospatric, earl of Northumbria? Certainly he was no > low-born adventurer, for on his mother's side he was descended from both the > English royal house of Wessex, and the House of Bamburgh, rulers of the > northern Northumbrian kingdom of Bernicia. About his father, Maldred, there > is much speculation. It was once thought that Maldred, who is called "son > > of Crinan", was the brother of Duncan I, king of Scots; and that Gospatric, > consequently, was a first cousin of Malcolm III. If that were so, it would > offer a convincing explanation of the generosity Malcolm apparently showed > > to him. But there is not a shred of proof that Crinan, his grandfather, was > the same Crinan who was Malcolm's grandfather. Maldred, Gospatric's father, > is said to have been a thane, and a very wealthy man, and the strong > likelihood is that Gospatric's mother, Ealdgyth, married not a member of the > Scottish royal house, but one of the richest of her father Earl Uhtred's top > officials in Northumbria"2 > > 2 Footnote: B.W.S. Barrow, Companions of the Atheling, Anglo-Norman > Studies......Professor Barrow disarmingly offers to eat 'humble pie' if the > identification of Gospatric's grandfather Crinan with Crinan, lay abbot of > Dunkeld and father of Duncan I, can be proven. We have recently been > reminded, however, that the name Crinan, applied to Maldred's father and the > abbot of Dunkeld and a moneyer of King Cnut, occurs in Britain only in this > generation and that it seems strange that it "should simultaneously belong > > to three unrelated individuals' (Woolf, *Pictland to Alba*, 252). The > pendulum may therefore be swinging slightly back towards to the possibility > that Gospatric was Malcolm's cousin." > > Clan Irwin claims to be brother to Crinan and at one point we thought we'd > > triangulated the DNA back one more generation but that group (which includes > Irwin bluebloods) is haplogroup R-L21+ while the Dunbar Lineage 1 group, > which includes Dunbar bluebloods) is R-L257. > > Doubt this issue as to who descends from Crinan will be resolved anytime > soon. > >

> In studying my own clan's genealogy, less than 10% of Maclean/Maclaine > variants are M222 positive like I am and mostly are Celtic dna. I have > taken this to mean that possibly some Dohertys crossed the Irish sea into > Scotland between 1200-1500 You might consider MacLaine as variant of O'Lane (O'Luinigh) former lords of Cenel Moen and originate in the barony of Raphoe, Co. Donegal. [In the 16th century Bagenal rental records for 'The Town and Lordship of Newry' I found Mac and O Morgans, namely the Mac and O are/were inchangable.] The barony of Raphoe was also home to the O'Docherty of Cenel Conaill, as opposed to Cenel Moen a branch of Cenel Eoghain.(I half-remember John saying something about O'Docherty DNA being close to other Cenel Eoghain families??)

The only uncertainty of the line from Crinan to Robert Rioch Duncanson (relative given in Robison-Blythe genealogy for Robertson of Struan), according to Gordon MacGregor, is the descent from Madach of Clunes to Andrew de Atholia. There is a break of a generation/s. Great grandfather Duncan who died 1355-1357 was ancestor of Robert Rioch Duncanson and grandfather of first Reid, Alexander Robertson (first proclaimed Reid 'Ruaidh'). Just follow me and I'm using guesstimates: Crinan died 1045 AD Duncan died 1040 AD Mael Muire appointed Mormear of Atholl 1100 AD Madach died 1145 Ad Malcom 2nd Earl of Atholl m 1165 to Hextilda Duncan 3rd son of Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl m. say 1195 (guesstimate) Madach of Clunes witness to charter in 1240 born say 1200 lets say lived 1270? Guesstimate Generation by generation descent from Madach to Andrew uncertain ---------------------- Andrew de Atholia ??????????? who was his father? Duncan de Atholia son of Andrew died 1355-1357 AD This Duncan father of Patrick Duncanson 1st Lude (father of Alexander Robertson who started Reid line of Strathloch) and present Clan Chief's line of Robert de Atholia Robert de Atholia in battle of Methven in 1306 had charter for lands 1362 Duncan de Atholia Robert Rioch Duncanson of Struan ( Clan Chief off his line in Robison & Blythe) died 1459