Thanks for your reply , Bill. I have read that the land bridge between the U.K. and the continent is thought to have split about 7500 years ago so you are correct that it was far before the origin of the M222 SNMP. However, from what I have learned about the post-glacial history of the Great Lakes area of North America where I live, some post-glacial events that have shaped our current terrain took place much more recently. For example, it is thought that Lakes Superior, Huron and Michigan were part of a much larger lake and only separated a couple of thousand years ago due largely due to continuing rebound. In Sweden, the area around Stockholm was once an arm of the Baltic Sea that is thought to have separated around 1200 AD. According to what I have read, in Great Britain the last glaciation affected Scotland but not southern England so that the post-glacial rebound is still causing the northern part to rise and the southern part to fall to this day, albeit slowly. So, I was wondering if we know what the area that currently lies between Scotland and Ireland might have looked like several thousand years ago, particularly if, as it seems, the south-eastern portion of the current North Channel is much deeper than the north-western part. I certainly don't disagree that it takes little imagination to conclude that so small a sea barrier would provide little barrier to exploration. I just wonder if a land connection closer to Donegal persisted close enough to the time we are interested in for it to be interesting. John

Hi, to John, While I don't know of a specific comparison of the geologic history of land connections in the M222 part of the world, I do know that geologists have spoken about France and England having a connection across the English Channel, but my memory suggests that it was far before the origin of the M222 SNP in about 1680 BC. There are other studies of such connections across the Bearing Straits where the ancestors of the North American Indians probably crossed, again many years before 2000 BC. Making inquiries through Google would probably get a lot of information on the subject. However, both across the English Channel and certainly across the 15-20 km narrow point that separates lowland Scotland from NE Ireland, you can see the other shore from either side. It takes little imagination to conclude that people on either shore would explore what it was like on the other shore, and if they were escaping from raids, etc., it would have provided additional incentives to cross the body of water and see what was on the other side. That would have been the case when the first inhabitants appeared on either shore. The ease by which it was possible to go from Scotland to Ireland, even far back in the BC era, makes it difficult if not impossible to determine where the origin of families and their surnames, including the M222 SNP, happened. John and I had a lot of discussion on this issue before we wrote what we did in our paper. And, by the way, we have an indication from the editor of the journal, Familia (Ulster Historical Foundation), that our paper will be published in the 2011 edition of the journal. John has already posted what we submitted on a web site that he communicated to our Rootsweb group earlier. - Bye from Bill Howard On Oct 7, 2011, at 10:40 AM, John Carey wrote: > (I have) re-read Howard and Mclaughlin's paper. One thing that > struck me this time was the statement: > > "The R1b haplogroup of the progenitor certainly indicates that his ancestors > came from Western Europe, probably though England and arrived in Ireland by > land from lowland Scotland or by sea to the area near Co. Donegal and > Connacht." > > This got me wondering what the land connection might have looked like. A > quick search on the Internet didn't turn up much, except that I learned that > to the south-east of the North Channel there exists a geological feature > between Ireland and Scotland known as Beaufort's Dyke that has a depth in > excess of 200 metres. I presume that this could not have been the place > where a land connection existed. This suggests that the land connection > would have been to the northwest part of the North Channel which appears to > be much shallower on the maps I have seen - comparable perhaps to depths in > the English Channel. > > So, I was wondering if there has been a comparison of the geologic history > of this area with the current distribution of M222. I would also much > appreciate any suggested references to the geologic history of this area > that might be accessible from Canada. > > > > John Carey >

One consequence of Yair Davidiy's distracting series of messages is that it stimulated me to re-read Howard and Mclaughlin's paper. One thing that struck me this time was the statement "The R1b haplogroup of the progenitor certainly indicates that his ancestors came from Western Europe, probably though England and arrived in Ireland by land from lowland Scotland or by sea to the area near Co. Donegal and Connacht." This got me wondering what the land connection might have looked like. A quick search on the Internet didn't turn up much, except that I learned that to the south-east of the North Channel there exists a geological feature between Ireland and Scotland known as Beaufort's Dyke that has a depth in excess of 200 metres. I presume that this could not have been the place where a land connection existed. This suggests that the land connection would have been to the northwest part of the North Channel which appears to be much shallower on the maps I have seen - comparable perhaps to depths in the English Channel. So, I was wondering if there has been a comparison of the geologic history of this area with the current distribution of M222. I would also much appreciate any suggested references to the geologic history of this area that might be accessible from Canada. John Carey

The Expansion of NWIM?? Quotation: From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [DNA] Milesians rather than The People of the Lightning:FirBolg and Bel... Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:31:02 EDT http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-06/1181784662 # According to O'Rahilly, the Ui Neill or descendants of Conn (northern goidels) weren't even in Ulster until after or during the death of Nial 'of the NIne Hostages.' (c. 400 to 450 AD). Then mythology tells us the three sons of Nial pushed into the north of Ireland and for the first time established kingdoms in the NW (Donegal, Tryone). Other historians disagree with O'Rahilly on this point, saying they came instead from Connacht and not the midlands. But most seem to accept the basic premise that the Ui Neill first settled in the NW after the death of Nial. # Where did the NWIM originate? Conventional DNA sources (despite recent denials and attempted revisions) are consistent with them all coming from Neill or his brothers. Some seem to suggest that it originated long beforehand but due to a fluke of history became somehow telescoped into Neill and his kin before expanding again. The presence in Lowland Scotland and along the Atlantic coast of Continental Europe may be explained by Irish emigrants or possibly by a pre-Neill origin in Europe. Some of the suggestions are interesting. e.g. The Venicnii and Venicones http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm Venicones http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/Venicones.htm These ideas however seem to lack DNA evidence to substantiate them. In Ireland it all seems to emanate from Neill and his family. Outside of Ireland we do not know but even there Neill and his family are still strong candidates. Lately there have been claims that the NWIM is not really as localized on descendants of the Connachta and Neil as at first suggested. If such as is the case then there should be articles about it. These should succinctly summarize the alternate cases with a few detailed examples. Failing this, the candidature of the Connachta and Neil as being the primary candidates of origin retains its primacy. Learned innuendos of dissent are not sufficient. Based on DNA findings concerning the NWIM we may say that, descendants of the Connachta and Neil show (in Ireland) a very strong vigorous expansion in an historically short time during which no other lineage fared so well. The "official" explanation seems to be that they were the chieftains etc and therefore they got more of the women and means of survival. For example the Abstract of the paper by McEvoy et al says: # The fact that about one in five males sampled in northwestern Ireland is likely a patrilineal descendent of a single early medieval ancestor is a powerful illustration of the potential link between prolificacy and power and of how Y-chromosome phylogeography can be influenced by social selection. # See: Laoise T. Moore,1,* Brian McEvoy,1,* Eleanor Cape,1 Katharine Simms,2 and Daniel G. Bradley1 A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland 1 Smurfit Institute of Genetics and 2School of Histories and Humanities, Trinity College, Dublin Am. J. Hum. Genet., 78:334-338, 2006 http://www.dnaancestryproject.com/ydna_intro_famous.php?id=niall In a previous posting I proposed that other factors may also have been at play. These could have included greater fertility, robustness, a higher male to female offspring ratio, etc. This suggestion was apparently considered potentially offensive or at the least farfetched by some. Billy Howard launched a pseudo-academic attack on my august self and off-the-list also sent me an anti-Israeli article he had authored to boot. [Who knows where academic indignation will go next?] I also received a letter off-the-list from a lady with interesting observations from her own family. She apparently wishes to remain anonymous but she offered, # my perspective simply based on my own M222 family with a firm ancestral trail back to about 1725 with the approximate birth of my immigrants to this country [i.e. the USA]. # # In my particular lineage every family suffered at least one or two children's deaths for one reason or another -- some died of illness too young and weak to fight it off the illness that took them; some died of accidents such as being kicked by a horse. # There was, however about an equal mix of issued males and females in these families on average. # My group, however were somewhat the exception. Those of related families did not seem to fair as well on average -- some did and many others did not. # In large part, besides being possibly genetically well endowed, I credit the survival of issued children to the skills of the mothers who were equally as sturdy and very attentive. Additionally, being farmers they generally had enough to eat. They were hard working, God loving people who lived their lives close to the earth quietly. # Most of the men were monogamous and married one time only; many of them out-lived their wives probably due to the fact that some of these women bore upwards of 8 -- 13 or more children and child bearing takes its toll upon women. Anyway based on the reactions received on-list we must either: (1) accept the socially higher status once enjoyed by some of the descendants of Neill and company as an explanation for their demographic success rate. OR (2) Consider it an act of Divine Providence under a different name since we cannot nowadays say such things in respectable company. We must not look for other factors since this would be considered unscientific? When we did actually dare to venture beyond the above two parameters we were actually compared to the persecutors of Copernicus? Based on what has transpired up to now we would not be surprised to be also called anti-Polish! What do the Connachta have to do with Warsaw?

> Okay Mr Morgan, I am trying to figure out your theory for Hy Many Larkin > origin. Is it that these Larkins were descended from Lorcan Mac Cathal Mor > of Meath and were pushed west by the Normans & Leinstermen? The Chronicon Scotorum annal entry for the year 1121 does suggests a pre-Norman connection West of the Shannon. > If so, it would be ironic because my theory that they (we) come from Maine > Mor & Niall has a corrollary that Maine of Tebtha and Maine Mor are probaby > the same man. And thus we will find Oriel & Meath Larkin DNA that is M222+ > and significantly correlated with the Hy Many samples. I guess your > hypothesis would be supported with those same DNA findings as well. Prof Byrnes is only person I know to have made the connection between the Ui Maine of Connacht and the (Cenel) Ui Maine of Teffia. I have yet to find no merit in his supposition that if these two population bordered each other by accident in 10th century then they had a common ancestor. For in the 7th century they did not border each and where quite seperate areas. > But back to your challenge to cite pre-Norman Larkins in Hy Many, let me say > that my previous set was chosen for being clearly west of the Shannon. The > following ones are pre-Norman but may have been on the eastern shores of the > river Shannon. > > Refr: Ui Maine and the O'Lorcains by David A Larkin 2004 > > THM 890 Lorcan, son of Moran, son of Flann, son of Innnreachtaigh, son of > Maelduin, son of Dungalach, son of Anmchadh Last lords of Sil n-Anmcadha (referencing above pedigree) were the O Madden who DNA project as yet no DNA matches with the NW Ireland (M222+) modal. A number of their results do seem to match Group 14 of the O'Kelly project with is described as the descendants of "The O'Kelly of Hy Maine" and includes Count Walter Lionel Mary Gerard O'Kelly (84928) the current "Chief of the Clan". http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kellydnaproject/TestResultsTable.htm http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kellydnaproject/TestResults.htm The Ui Maine are also claimed by most pedigrees to be members of Clan Colla, and as seen in other emails are also non-M222 population. However Muintir Lorcain association with Clann Innnreachtaigh of Sil n-Anmcadha is interesting for members of the this Clann have also alternative Ui Briuin pedigrees. > AFM 885 Maenach Lorcan, Abbot of Killeigh died. > AFM 932 Congalach son of Lorcan slew Dubhgilla son of Robarcon lord of Ui Cormaic. I believe this is in the Loughrea area. Brother of Cennedig mac Lorcain, Lord of Dal Cais? and not M222+ > AFM 937 Donal son of Lorcan, lord of Aidhne died at Clonmacnoise. As Lord of Ui Fiachach Aidne he should be M222+ > approx 950 Maelroin Ua Lorcain buried in St Ciaran's Cell at Clonmacnoise. > Now the largest grave slab still intact there. Relative to Donal above? There also an Annal entry for: T985 Fearghal mac Lorcain, rí Cenéoil Fiachrach, do marbadh la Connachtaib (Clann Lorcain were a branch of Cenel Fiachach (mac Neill).) > > AFM 955 Raigain macFinnachta Ui Lorcain died. > Not clear but was included amongst Connacht references. The O'Finnertys are another surname of the Muinter Lorcan area as well. O'Finnerty/Finnaghty later over-run by the Burkes are claimed as the Ua Finnachtaigh of Clann Innnreachtaigh mac Maelduinn of Ui Maine (haven't found a full pedigree yet), however they do have a full Ui Briuin pedigree from another Innrachtaigh i.e. son of Muiredaigh (Sil Muiredaigh, a catch all for Ui Briuin Ali): O'Finnerty: Finachta m. Guillbeithi m. Flaind m. Cinaith m. Muiredaigh m. Finachta m. Gletnecan m. Fergusa m. Murcada m. Innrachtaigh m. Muiredaigh of Ui Briuin compare to Muintir Lorcain: Lorcan mac Moran mac Flann mac Innnreachtaigh, mac Maelduin mac Dungalach, mac Anmchadh of Ui Maine I wonder if the families of Clann Innnreachtaigh mac Maelduinn of Ui Maine should actually be Ui Briuin from Innrachtaigh m. Muiredaigh ? > > AFM 1014 Muircheartach Ua Lorcain, Airchinneach of Lothra died. > Lorrha, on the east bank of the Shannon. I realize the traditional > attribution for this reference was to Dal Cassians but I think that wrong. > Lorrha has Lorcan present in every available historical record since that > time and modern descendants were tested M222+ and part of the tightly > clustered Type 1 group in my paper. > > AFM 1121 A plundering excursions was made by Toirdelbhach (O'Connor, King of > Connacht) ... and he lost on that occasion Muiredach Ua Flaitghbheartach > lord of Iar Connacht ... Muirgheas UaLorcain and many others. > > Can you find such fault with all of these as to conclude there is no > pre-Norman reference for Larkin in Hy Many? Yes I can fault this list, for none actually make a link with Ui Maine. Expect for reference to a Muintir Lorcain (people of Lorcain) in a Ui Maine pedigree, then again Clann Lorcain is found amongst the Dal Cais and Cenel Fiachach.

"I think the Airghialla-1 modal is associated with Clan Colla and Null-425, right? Many of these people have tested positive for the new DF21 SNP under L21. See "Group N1" in the list from the DF21 project:http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx?section=yresults" Steve, Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I have labeled both of the two members as "Clan Colla Airghialla-1." They both have that 9-0-22 configuration around the so-called Null 425. Paul

Thank you John for the link to the very fine Clan Colla DNA project site. Your comments overall have stimulated me to try to obtain Larkin samples from the Oriel area to see how closely they match our Hy Many M-222 haplotypes. If you come across any such individuals, I hope you will refer them to our project. http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/larkin/ Thx, Brad --------- Subject: Re: [R-M222] Larkin DNA Project - Ancestral Parish Sampling ontheShannon River Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 22:52:35 -0400 (EDT) Here's a link to what they call the Clan Colla DNA project. _http://www.peterspioneers.com/colla.htm#modal_ (http://www.peterspioneers.com/colla.htm#modal) The modal presented is not M222. And I'm not sure they captured the line of the Maguire chieftains. There are a large number who do not match this in the Maguire FTDNA project. Those Maguires however are not M222 either. John

Okay Mr Morgan, I am trying to figure out your theory for Hy Many Larkin origin. Is it that these Larkins were descended from Lorcan Mac Cathal Mor of Meath and were pushed west by the Normans & Leinstermen? If so, it would be ironic because my theory that they (we) come from Maine Mor & Niall has a corrollary that Maine of Tebtha and Maine Mor are probaby the same man. And thus we will find Oriel & Meath Larkin DNA that is M222+ and significantly correlated with the Hy Many samples. I guess your hypothesis would be supported with those same DNA findings as well. But back to your challenge to cite pre-Norman Larkins in Hy Many, let me say that my previous set was chosen for being clearly west of the Shannon. The following ones are pre-Norman but may have been on the eastern shores of the river Shannon. Refr: Ui Maine and the O'Lorcains by David A Larkin 2004 THM 890 Lorcan, son of Moran, son of Flann, son of Innnreachtaigh, son of Maelduin, son of Dungalach, son of Anmchadh AFM 885 Maenach Lorcan, Abbot of Killeigh died. AFM 932 Congalach son of Lorcan slew Dubhgilla son of Robarcon lord of Ui Cormaic. I believe this is in the Loughrea area. AFM 937 Donal son of Lorcan, lord of Aidhne died at Clonmacnoise. This is vicinity of Gort, Galway. approx 950 Maelroin Ua Lorcain buried in St Ciaran's Cell at Clonmacnoise. Now the largest grave slab still intact there. AFM 955 Raigain macFinnachta Ui Lorcain died. Not clear but was included amongst Connacht references. The O'Finnertys are another surname of the Muinter Lorcan area as well. AFM 1014 Muircheartach Ua Lorcain, Airchinneach of Lothra died. Lorrha, on the east bank of the Shannon. I realize the traditional attribution for this reference was to Dal Cassians but I think that wrong. Lorrha has Lorcan present in every available historical record since that time and modern descendants were tested M222+ and part of the tightly clustered Type 1 group in my paper. AFM 1121 A plundering excursions was made by Toirdelbhach (O'Connor, King of Connacht) ... and he lost on that occasion Muiredach Ua Flaitghbheartach lord of Iar Connacht ... Muirgheas UaLorcain and many others. Can you find such fault with all of these as to conclude there is no pre-Norman reference for Larkin in Hy Many? Brad

I think the Airghialla-1 modal is associated with Clan Colla and Null-425, right? Many of these people have tested positive for the new DF21 SNP under L21. See "Group N1" in the list from the DF21 project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx?section=yresults regards, Steve

When we started the Byrne/Burns/Beirne project, most with those surnames assumed they were descendant from the Clan O'Byrne of Leinster, but we soon discovered three major divisions into Leinster, Northwest (M222), and what we called Monaghan. We then discovered that a number of Monaghans differed from the neighbors that they thought were related--and are M222. We had no special tag for the major Monaghan group until Joe Donohoe, with his Breifne project, devised Airghialla-1 and Airghialla-2 modals. So today, we are able to divide our previously-called Monaghans into three quite distinct groups. One clearly is Northwest Irish (n-12), as identified by M222. It is Lineage IId on www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/byrne/results and seems to be linked to the Reillys. The second and largest (n-26) is Airghialla-2, and is identified by L513. It is linked to the McGuires and is our Lineage III. The third and smallest (n-2) seems to fit the Airghialla-1 modal, but I have no info on its origins. It is our Lineage XII. Paul

Brief ??? on the "Paper" Re: "The Paper" by William E. Howard III and John D. McLaughlin -- First of all I recommend reading the paper. It could be useful. The main features of this essay appear to be: # 1. The putative ancestor of NWIM (R222) lived ca. 2000 - 1400 BCE. # 2. Possible to show probable genetic connections between different families and estimates as to when and how their ancestors diverged. # 3. NWIM originated in Scotland. Criticisms of above three points: 1. The 2000 - 1400 BCE date for an ancestor is based on an estimate of one mutation in about 5.5 generations. Recent research however indicates that the rate is 4 per 13 generations which is 1 .25 per 3 generations and not one per 5.5 [1]http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2009/08/human-y-chromosome-mutation-rates.ht ml [2]http://www.physorg.com/news170595325.html This cuts the estimated time in half giving us ca. 0 to 500 CE. This fits in with the time of Neil. 2. The estimates as to divergences of ancestry and place of divergence should be compared with family traditions. These assumedly exist in some cases. 3. The Scottish origin idea seems to be based on two assumptions: a. Present concentrations of NWIM in northwest and west may be explained by historical phenomenon. Eliminate them and one is lest with a tendency to the northeast i.e. in the direction of Scotland. b. Many family traditions even in Ireland of NWIM bearers say their ancestors originated in Scotland. Regarding a. this is not serious since every other statistical height may also be explained by historical circumstances. Concerning b. it all depends on what families were chosen and then we must ask why Irish tradition (where most NWIMs are located) does not mention any such thing. A few extracts from the Paper with Remarks (see also Enlightening Glossary for the Layman, provided by us, below the Abstract): A Dated Phylogenetic Tree of M222 SNP Haplotypes: Exploring the DNA of Irish and Scottish Surnames and Possible Ties to Niall and the Uí Néill Kindred [3]http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Pa per.pdf -- William E. Howard III and John D. McLaughlin -- ABSTRACT Using an application program, Mathematica1, we have produced a phylogenetic tree directly from a set of Y-DNA haplotypes of male testees who carry the M222 Single- Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP). The tree has a time scale, derived from pedigrees2, which is built into the program code3. Evolutionary relationships of the major features of the M222 phylogenetic tree are discussed. A new approach has been developed that dates a SNP by counting the number of lines of descent on a phylogenetic tree which appear at successive slices of time. We show that the M222 SNP originated between 1400 and 2000 BC and we explore living conditions in Ireland and Scotland at that time. Heuristic arguments point to an origin in Scotland, long before the reign of the Irish Chieftain Niall (of the Nine Hostages). After Nialls supposed reign, but before the year 1000, a proliferation of the SNP took place as evidenced by the many points on the tree at which the most recent common ancestors of current M222 testees lived. This situation probably occurred along with a general population explosion at the time just before surnames were adopted in Ireland. Although we have found no evidence from studies of phylogenetic trees that the progeny of Niall or his supposed descendants, the Uí Néills, contributed significantly to this explosion, we have found a bimodality in the M222 histogram that may connect the ages of two concentrations of M222 with Irish history. From their positions on the M222 phylogenetic tree, we can show how a few groups of different surnames are related to each other and how the times of origin of an M222 line that later becomes a surname cluster can be derived from a progenitor whose testee-descendants carry many different surnames. In cases where there are two clusters with two different surnames that are closely located in a phylogenetic tree, we suggest that they may share not only a recent common ancestor but also may have lived in close geographic proximity. Enlightening Glossary for the Layman: #Heuristic arguments point to an origin in Scotland# i.e. an educated guess!! whose education? #Bimodal# i.e two different groups. #not only a recent common ancestor but also may have lived in close geographic proximity#. i.e. not only did they have the same ancestor but that ancestor was not two different people and managed (presumably at the time of procreation) to keep himself in one place and not two different ones at the very same time! More of the same form the main body of the article: #If a pedigree trail and the DNA evidence both point to a particular ancestor, it is highly probable that both the trail AND the DNA evidence merely go through that ancestor without originating there.# i.e. the person concerned really may be the ancestor but he had a daddy who begat him! These articles develop a time scale, called a Revised Correlation Coefficient, or RCC that can be used to investigate the evolutionary relationships that tie genetics to genealogy, history, and anthropology over tens of thousands of years by analyzing various clusters of haplotypes. The time scale has been calibrated with over 100 pedigrees, so that one RCC is equivalent to just under 50 years. We know that a 37 marker haplotype will have a mutation about every 137 years, or one mutation in about 5.5 generations, as the line goes down from progenitor to testee, i.e., from RCC = 20 to zero. There will be, on average, about 6.3 mutations along the line, but that can vary, perhaps by +/- 2.5 mutations because mutations occur at random2 . Earlier studies of the origin of the M222 SNP have suggested dates ranging between 1360 and 1740 years ago (RCCs between 31 and 40)2 19. A Trinity College study in 2005 estimated the time of origin to be 1730 years ago, or about 275 AD with a large SD of 670 years20 . These determinations resulted from studies of surname pairs within a much smaller database than we now have. In 2005 John McEwan estimated a date of origin 3362 years ago, or about 1357 BC21 . A more recent determination estimates the date as 3000 years ago, or about 1000 BC22 . The links on our larger M222 trees provide valuable additional information that shows that the mutation occurred far before the life of the putative King Niall or his descendants. One reason that may explain the high incidence of M222 in northwest Ireland found by the Trinity study relies on a tie to Irish culture and its system of kings and chieftains, all of whom were related by kingship as part of the same tribe. The concentration extends down into the heart of Connacht into Roscommon, Sligo and Mayo. The kings and chieftains held these same territories from the time of Niall or earlier, well into the 1500s until the English conquest. Offshoots of the same tribe in these territories also controlled most of the important church positions and lay positions within the church and society. They had a selective breeding advantage. The Uí Néill and Connachta enjoyed this privileged position for centuries and they did not move. The one known exception to this rule was the push by the Uí Néill into other parts of Ulster around 1000 AD, and that is also probably why the density of M222 is higher in those areas. Moffat and Wilson contend that the prevalence of M222 in Ireland proves it originated there and then migrated to Scotland, probably with the Dal Riata settlement in western Scotland27 . A convincing reason why there are two M222 concentrations toward the west rather than being more uniformly concentrated along the northern coast still eludes us. It might be explained either by ancestral arrivals there by sea from the east or from early land migrations prompted by a recognition that life was easier there than in areas to the east. We really do not know where Niall lived around 400-450 AD. There were no writings in Ireland at the time and most of the written stories of Niall originated much later, about 600-800 AD. It is said that he was High King of Ireland, which equates to being King of Tara in Meath, the royal center of Ireland for centuries. Pointing out the analogy with the male-line descendants of Genghis Khan, the Trinity study suggested that the high incidence of the M222 signature may be the result of a similar linkage to an ancient, enduring dynasty in Ireland and further noted that the prestige and power of the Uí Néill descendants of Niall supports both the veracity of the semi-mythological early genealogies and provides a powerful illustration of the potential link between prolificacy and power and how the enhancement of the M222 SNP in northwest Ireland where the Uí Néills dominated can be influenced by social selection. The Trinity studys argument links the Uí Néill descendants only through their presence and the M222 concentration. It is not based on a population explosion over and above the normal increases in population that were occurring at that time. The lack of a bulge in the number of lines of descent on the M222 tree at these times gives no support to any contention that an enhanced reproductive activity of Niall or the Uí Néills led to such a population explosion nor to the concentration of M222 observed in NW Ireland. We believe that the Trinity study may have been too hasty when it linked Niall to the concentrations of DNA they found. While it may have happened, such a bulge in the number of lines of descent at the time that Niall or the Uí Néills lived is not apparent from our data. Concentrations of DNA do not necessarily indicate that one or more male Uí Néills were responsible for that concentration. It may also indicate a lack of mobility of a non-Niall progenitor and his descendants who carried the mutation. This issue is unresolved. We counted the number of testees who named Ireland or Northern Ireland as their ancestral country of origin, and the number who named Scotland. References 1. http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2009/08/human-y-chromosome-mutation-rates.html 2. http://www.physorg.com/news170595325.html 3. http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Paper.pdf

Here's a link to what they call the Clan Colla DNA project. _http://www.peterspioneers.com/colla.htm#modal_ (http://www.peterspioneers.com/colla.htm#modal) The modal presented is not M222. And I'm not sure they captured the line of the Maguire chieftains. There are a large number who do not match this in the Maguire FTDNA project. Those Maguires however are not M222 either. John

In a message dated 10/4/2011 8:10:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: Back to the main point M222+ population is commonly assumed to be the descendants of Conn of a Hundred Battles, i.e. Dal Cuinn - the Ui Neill, Ui Briuin, Ui Fiachach and Ui Ailella plus their associated allies of Clan Colla and Ui Maine. However the M222+ O'Nuallain of Carlow do not claim to be Dal Cuinn, instead they claim to be Ui Eoghain Fhinn-Fothaidh. Eoghan Finn and Fiacha Suigdhe (said to be brothers to Conn of Hundred Battles) are said to have lead the Dessi on a war of expansion into Wales and Leinster, while later settling on the Munster border. The Eoghan Finnn descendants are people called Ui Fothaidh and Ui Eoghain Fhinn and have baronies across Leinster named for them. They and the Dessi seem to have occupied all of Co. Waterford and most of of Co. Tipperary. (Note: Co. Clare is remembered as originally belonging to the descendants of Conn, the Dal Cuinn held onto northern Co. Tipperary.) I thought this Fothaidh business sounded familiar. It's one of the pedigrees said to descend from Tuathal Teachtmar, ancestor of the Dal Cuinn. An early genealogy of the Fothairt: (Rawlinson) Sétna, the son of Artt Cerp, son of Cairbre Niad, son of Cormac Már, son of Óengus Mend, son of Eochaid Find Fuath n-Airtt, son of Feidhlimidh Reachtmhar, son of Tuathal Teachtmhar, and the ancestor of the Fothairt Fili, Fothairt Tuile, Fothairt Maige Ítha, Fothairt Imchlár oc Ard Macha & Fothairt Bile. But we're in dangerous territory here, long before the time of Niall. Modern historians routinely question the historicity of Niall and his sons. What might they think of Tuathal Teachtmar and Conn 'of the Hundred Battles'? At some point the Milesian genealogists simply began tacking tribes onto certain lines. I think even the Lagin of Leinster and the Dal Cuinn are linked at some point from Heremon. Where does this point occur? There is a point beyond which nothing is believable in the Irish genealogical scheme. I do not know for sure where that point may be but I think anything prior to Niall is suspect. John

> 3) Re: Lorcains west of the Shannon by Morgan - There are lots of reference > if one looks. > a. O'Donovan put the name on his map there. Was O’Donovan right to put the name on his map? And what time period is represented by the map? I am happy to assume M222+ O’Lorcain are to be found west of the Shannon. It’s just who are they, for they conflict DNA with the identified members O’Kelly and O’Madden of Ui Maine. > b. As is pointed out in my paper, there is a 1585 reference to the name in Royal Patents. As issue as above, it tells that the O’Lorcain where present in 16th century, but who are they? > c. To this day, there are 4 townlands named "Lurgan ..." in east Galway. Gives history to their presence, yet then where the townlands named? > d. CE 1253 Melaghlin O'Lorcain tenant of de Burgo at Meelick Castle. The O’Lorcain where present in Galway since 1253. However this is still after the Norman invasion and their displacement of people like the O’Lorcain lords of Caille Fallamhan. > e. CE 1318 Clan Lorchain listed along with O'Kelly's of Ui Maine as participating in the battle of Dysert O'Dea. According to the below reference Clan Lorchain were a sept of the MacNamara (though whether linked by blood would be another question). >From The History and Topography of the County of Clare by James Frost: “A list of Dermot’s followers is given by Mac Grath. A.D. 1317. List of the Septs of Thomond. In addition to those just mentioned, there came to his aid the O’Hehirs, the M’Graths, the O’Dubhduins, the MacGormans, and the following septs of the clan Culein (the MacNamaras), viz.—The MacInerneys, the clan Lorcain, the O’Claras, the clan Meanman (Mannions?), the clan Giolla Maoel, the O’Maoel Domhnaigh (O’Moloneys), the clan Alivaren (O’Hallorans), the clan Comhremaigh (O’Currys), the O’Slatterys, the O’Hassetts, the O’Malleys, the O’Hartigans, the O’Cindergains, the clan Aillie (O’Haleys), the O’Conways (Conduibh), and the O’Meehans: then came the M‘Mahons, of Corcabaskin, under the command of Donogh, son of Rory, son of Rory; the O’Lynches, and the O’Kellys (Caolaidhe), of Galway; the MacRegans, the clan Mahowna, the O’Griffeys, the O’Howards (Muinter Iomhair), and the MacEncroes (Mac Con Cros) of Inagh; the O’Galvins (Muinter Chealbhain), the O’Liddys, the O’Doyles, the O’Kellihers, the O’Cuiníns (Cuneens), and the O’Gerans.” > f. Episcopal rentals in Clonfert Diocese in CE 1407 show Nemeas, son of Mahon O'Lorkan and a civil official in Clonfert. Useful for history of the O'Lorcain, however we haven’t pushed the O’Lorcain presence before 1253 (from d above). > g. From AFM: Thomas OLorcan, Ollam to the O'Madden chieftan, died CE 1490. Most likely he lived at Brackloon Castle near Clonfert town. Many of the professionals of Connacht claimed to be Southern Ui Neill, so they is no family requirement between the O’Lorcan and his patron. I find this earlier entry (below) interesting for it is pre-Norman conquest. The Ua Lorcain are accompanying the high king, the Ua Conchobuir - Ui Briuin king of Connacht. Suggesting the Ua Locain was an important local power, most likely in Connacht. The two other names families named in the rearguard action, the Ua Eidhin and Ua Flaithbertaigh, were member of M222+ kindred, I wonder if the M222+ O’Lorcain are related to the Connachta? CS1121, A plundering army was led by Tairdelbach ua Conchobuir into Mumu and they caused great terror to Caisel and plundered Ard Finain. The rear of the army was attacked as it was moving south and there was killed there Aed ua Eidhin, king of Uí Fhiachrach, and Muiredach ua Flaithbertaigh, king of West Connacht [i.e. Uí Briúin Seóla], and Muirgius ua Lorcáin and others. A great encampment by Tairdelbach ua Conchobuir and Leth Cuinn at Birra from Samain to the feast of Brigit, and they divided Desmumu between the descendants of Carthach and the descendants of Briain.

In a message dated 10/4/2011 3:43:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time, btlarkin1@gmail.com writes: 2) I will try to get a better reference for you from An Leabhar Breac. Could you point me at a DNA study relating to the Collas that says they are not M222? There's only one DNA study that I know of now labeling itself Airgialla (I think it's called the null something project). It seems to be only a sub-set of possible Airgialla DNA though. I didn't pay much attention to it though because it seemed to ignore the largest related cluster of Maguires. I was involved several years ago with McMahons and Maguires of Monaghan and Fermanagh respectively, both leading chieftains of the Airgialla. When the Trinity study first appeared the leaders of the DNA project were shocked to find their DNA did not match M222. Check out the McMahon DNA project at FTDNA. I do not know if there are others. The Trinity databases contained a lot of Maguire, McMahon and O'Hanlon DNA. These surnames were not included in their Niall study. It would have been a strange omission on their part to have this DNA and not mention it if they thought it matched their IMH DNA. It is true Trinity used only 12 markers in common with FTDNA at the time but you can determine M222 with good certainty on the basis of the first 12 markers. At least you can tell with certainty whether any given sample has a chance of being M222 or not. I've been expecting at some point to find some M222 DNA that does not easily fit into the neat genealogical scheme of Niall and his brothers. Any alleged branching prior to the time of Niall I think is highly suspect. Some of that is due to the influence of O'Rahilly - who regarded most of the names in the Dal Cuinn pedigree prior to Niall as artificial with just a few exceptions - one being Eochaidh Mughmedoin, Niall's father and Thuathal Teachtmar, an earlier ancestor who appears in the pedigrees prior to Conn 'of the Hundred Battles', a figure O'Rahilly regarded as purely mythological and an ancestral god. So I really never did buy into the "royal" descent of the Three Collas from the Dal Cuinn or any other tribe said to branch off prior to Niall. That is of course my own bias Everyone can form their own opinion on that. John

Quick clarification the O'Lorcain of the Barony of Forth where alien (Ui Muireadaig) overlords. Back to the main point M222+ population is commonly assumed to be the descendants of Conn of a Hundred Battles, i.e. Dal Cuinn - the Ui Neill, Ui Briuin, Ui Fiachach and Ui Ailella plus their associated allies of Clan Colla and Ui Maine. However the M222+ O'Nuallain of Carlow do not claim to be Dal Cuinn, instead they claim to be Ui Eoghain Fhinn-Fothaidh. Eoghan Finn and Fiacha Suigdhe (said to be brothers to Conn of Hundred Battles) are said to have lead the Dessi on a war of expansion into Wales and Leinster, while later settling on the Munster border. The Eoghan Finnn descendants are people called Ui Fothaidh and Ui Eoghain Fhinn and have baronies across Leinster named for them. They and the Dessi seem to have occupied all of Co. Waterford and most of of Co. Tipperary. (Note: Co. Clare is remembered as originally belonging to the descendants of Conn, the Dal Cuinn held onto northern Co. Tipperary.) The title given for the O'Meara of Rosarguid as chiefs (overlord) of Ui Fathaidh, Ui Neill, and Ui Eochaidh Finn is interesting for the Ui Fathaidh and Ui Eochaidh Finn are identified with the Ui Eoghain Fhinn Fothaidh descentants of Waterford/Tipperary. (The chiefs of the Dessi claim descent from Conn's and Eoghain Finn's other brother Fiacha Suigde.) I wonder if native famlies of Ui Fothaidh and Ui Eoghain Fhinn can be found that they will test M222+? >From Wikipedia: "Déisi Muman The Déisi Muman were a prominent enough power to form their own regional kingdom in Munster from a fairly early date. In a recent title, Paul MacCotter states "The regional kingdom of Déisi Muman must have existed in roughly its present location from a very early period. Ogams dating perhaps from the fifth century record unique first names associated with its kings."[4] According to Francis John Byrne, there are certain inscriptional hints that both the Eóganachta and their Waterford Déisi vassals may have been of fairly recent Gaulish origins.[5] " [There was somewhere an idea that Eogan (founder of the Eoganachta) came to Ireland with the Second Mil Espaine (i.e., the founder of Dal Cuinn, plus Ui Eoghain Finn-Fothaidh and Dal Fiachach Suidge).] Possible presence in Britain "The Déisi Muman are the subjects of one of the most famous medieval Irish epic tales, The Expulsion of the Déisi.[11] This literary work, first written sometime in the 8th century, is a pseudo-historical foundation legend for the medieval Kingdom of Déisi Muman, which seeks to hide the historical reality that the kingdom's origins lay among the indigenous tributary peoples of Munster. To this end it attributes to "the Déisi" an entirely fictive royal ancestry at Tara.[1] The term "Déisi" is used anachronistically in The Expulsion of the Déisi, since its chronologically confused narrative concerns "events" that long predate the historical development of déisi communities into distinct tribal polities or the creation of the kingdom of Déisi Muman.[3] The epic tells the story of a sept called the Dal Fiachach Suighe, who are expelled from Tara by their kinsman, Cormac mac Airt, and forced to wander homeless. After a southward migration and many battles, part of the sept eventually settles in Munster. At some point during this migration from Tara to Munster, one branch of the sept, led by Eochaid Allmuir mac Art Corb, sails across the sea to Britain where, it is said, his descendants later ruled in Demed, the former territory of the Demetae (modern Dyfed). The Expulsion of the Déisi is the only direct source for this "event". The historicity of this particular passage of the epic apparently receives partial "confirmation" from a pedigree preserved in the late 10th-century Harleian genealogies, in which the contemporary kings of Dyfed claim descent from Triphun (fl. 450), a great-grandson of Eochaid Allmuir, although the Harleian genealogy itself presents an entirely different version of Triphun's own ancestry in which he descends from a Roman imperial line traced back to St. Helena, whose alleged British origin the genealogist stresses.[12] This manifest fiction apparently reflects a later attempt to fabricate a more illustrious and/or indigenous lineage for the Dyfed dynasty, especially as other Welsh genealogical material partially confirms the Irish descent of Triphun.[13] If the relocation of some of the "Déisi" to Dyfed is indeed historical, it is unclear whether it entailed a large-scale tribal migration or merely a dynastic transfer, or both as part of a multi-phase population movement.[14] However this movement is characterised, scholarship has demonstrated that it cannot have taken place as early as the date implied in The Expulsion of the Déisi (i.e. shortly after the blinding of Cormac mac Airt, traditionally dated AD 265), but must have begun during the second half of the 4th century at the earliest,[15] while commencement in the sub-Roman period in the early 5th century cannot be excluded.[16] It is further entirely possible that the historians and genealogists of the Déisi Muman were guilty of lifting these "verified" ancestors, who could have originally belonged to another Irish kindred entirely. " [The problem with it identification of "lifting of ancestors" is the O'Nuallain of Ui Fothaidh have actual turned out to be M222+, like the Dal Cuinn.]

> From: btlarkin1@gmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 03:07:01 -0500 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Larkin DNA Project - Ancestral Parish Sampling on theShannon River > > In general, I am not swayed by the Trinity spreadsheet as 1) it was done > some time ago with a lot less markers and 2) it makes very coarse > geographic references by province. As is pointed out in the paper, "a > twenty mile arc from Kiltormer, County Galway touches 6 counties" and 3 > provinces. Further, in my opinion, the definition of the Shannon River as a > sharp dividing line is more of a 16th and 17th century concept of English > occupation and does not reflect medieval territoriality very well. e.g. > Diocese of Killaloe extends over the Shannon into Tipperary; likewise, > Diocese of Clonfert extends into Lusmagh, Offaly; there are stories of > monasteries on both sides of the Shannon river having close ties until the > suppression. > > Thx, > Brad > Brad, I doubt any of these divisions are of use. Munster I believe was shired around 1250, and I doubt the diocese boundaries tell us much about surnames or tribes either?If you have evidence otherwise I would be interested to hear it. Iain

> From: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 02:36:39 +0000 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Laud 610 Leinster and Munster M222+ families > > > Another family was the O'Mearadhaigh (Eoganacht in origin?) of Ui Fathaidh of southern Tipperary. This last family is linked to the north Tipperary (once part of the Ui Neill lands) family of O'Meara of Rosarguid, chief of Ui Fathaidh, Ui Neill, and Ui Eochaidh Finn, in the barony of Upper Ormond. There is also mention that the territory Ui Fathaidh of Tipperary is now placed within Upperthird and Middlethird baronies (Gaultiere was formerly named Offath), so Tipperary and Waterford have numerous kinships claiming ties with Dal Conn? > > Does someone know more? > I am not sure if I follow exactly what you are claiming here or even what time periods you are speaking of. Once surnames emerged in the 12th century the O'Kennedys were lords of Ormond and there were only two surnames that dominated the two Ormond baronies: O'Kennedy and Gleeson. No-one else comes close. I haven't looked into the matter of Gleeson DNA which I should have I guess. Some of the Tipperary Kennedys are Irish Type III, and I have yet to see an M222 Kennedy with a paper trail that far south. Currently Cavan and Sligo is the southern limit for us. However, if M222 was part of the genetic background pre-surname adoption in the area then some local Kennedys might have ended up M222. So I will keep watching out with interest. Iain

Hi, My father's family is from northern Ulster, I am M222, and I have a 24/25 match to a Kennedy. Doug On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 3:45 AM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> From: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 02:36:39 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Laud 610 Leinster and Munster M222+ families >> >> >> Another family was the O'Mearadhaigh (Eoganacht in origin?) of Ui Fathaidh of southern Tipperary. This last family is linked to the north Tipperary (once part of the Ui Neill lands) family of O'Meara of Rosarguid, chief of Ui Fathaidh, Ui Neill, and Ui Eochaidh Finn, in the barony of Upper Ormond. There is also mention that the territory Ui Fathaidh of Tipperary is now placed within Upperthird and Middlethird baronies (Gaultiere was formerly named Offath), so Tipperary and Waterford have numerous kinships claiming ties with Dal Conn? >> >> Does someone know more? >> > > I am not sure if I follow exactly what you are claiming here or even what time periods you are speaking of. Once surnames emerged in the 12th century the O'Kennedys were lords of Ormond and there were only two surnames that dominated the two Ormond baronies: O'Kennedy and Gleeson. No-one else comes close. I haven't looked into the matter of Gleeson DNA which I should have I guess. Some of the Tipperary Kennedys are Irish Type III, and I have yet to see an M222 Kennedy with a paper trail that far south. Currently Cavan and Sligo is the southern limit for us. However, if M222 was part of the genetic background pre-surname adoption in the area then some local Kennedys might have ended up M222. So I will keep watching out with interest. > Iain >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks for giving the subject some thought. My responses are as follows: 1) Re: Kellys and O'Maddens - The paper's conclusions are strictly focused on Larkins and primarily by sampling persons living in Ireland today. No conclusion was made on other Hy Many surnames. As you allude to, there do not seem to be many Madden DNA results published. Of the Kelly's, given the proliferation of the surname in Ireland, I'm not sure that those from Hy Many have been well sampled either, but I don't really now. On the contrary, the Egan's have a lot of DNA samples and a significant cadre of M222 in the Hy Many region, so that would be a 2nd surname data point in support of the M222-Maine Mor theory. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ClanEgan In general, I am not swayed by the Trinity spreadsheet as 1) it was done some time ago with a lot less markers and 2) it makes very coarse geographic references by province. As is pointed out in the paper, "a twenty mile arc from Kiltormer, County Galway touches 6 counties" and 3 provinces. Further, in my opinion, the definition of the Shannon River as a sharp dividing line is more of a 16th and 17th century concept of English occupation and does not reflect medieval territoriality very well. e.g. Diocese of Killaloe extends over the Shannon into Tipperary; likewise, Diocese of Clonfert extends into Lusmagh, Offaly; there are stories of monasteries on both sides of the Shannon river having close ties until the suppression. 2) I will try to get a better reference for you from An Leabhar Breac. Could you point me at a DNA study relating to the Collas that says they are not M222? 3) Re: Lorcains west of the Shannon by Morgan - There are lots of reference if one looks. a. O'Donovan put the name on his map there. b. As is pointed out in my paper, there is a 1585 reference to the name in Royal Patents. c. To this day, there are 4 townlands named "Lurgan ..." in east Galway. d. CE 1253 Melaghlin O'Lorcain tenant of de Burgo at Meelick Castle. e. CE 1318 Clan Lorchain listed along with O'Kelly's of Ui Maine as participating in the battle of Dysert O'Dea. f. Episcopal rentals in Clonfert Diocese in CE 1407 show Nemeas, son of Mahon O'Lorkan and a civil official in Clonfert. g. From AFM: Thomas OLorcan, Ollam to the O'Madden chieftan, died CE 1490. Most likely he lived at Brackloon Castle near Clonfert town. Thx, Brad