In a message dated 10/12/2011 1:56:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, tuulen@gmail.com writes: Apparently I am M222, according to Family Tree, but I have no idea as to what WTY could be. Not that I need a detailed explanation, but what is WTY and what could WTY determine? If WTY indeed is relevant, then I would be glad to make a financial contribution. I don't think anyone else responded to this. WTY is an initiative by FTDNA to find new SNPs (Walk on the Y). I first heard of it several years ago and it has found a lot of new SNPs but none for the M222s tested to date. Ken Nordtvedt at the time didn't think any new SNPs would be found downstream of M222 since it was such a young clade by comparison with most others. After testing three Irish samples it's doubtful anything would be found in testing more. Scottish samples? Who knows? John

I spent some time checking received lab results for the project. Paul's results are interesting. He shows: R1b1a2a1a1b4b P25+ M343+ M269+ M222+ M207+ M173+ SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M18- M160- M153- M126- But he also shows two different SNP tests. 1. P25 12/16/2004 2, DSNP-R1b 6/23/2006 As of 12/16/2004 he would have been listed, based on result 1, as P25 and R1b1 just like the other samples in question. He would still be listed as that today if he had not taken the DSNP test two years later. I looked at the McLaughlin sample in question (there is only one). 25105. On 4/19/2007 he shows a P25 test identical to Paul's. But he never upgraded to the DSNP test or what FTDNA later began calling the DCLADE test. This sample has not been tested for M222 or any other SNP other than P25. The same thing is true of the Doherty sample. He also only tested for P25 in 8/1/2005. He never had another SNP test or Deep Clade test. He too is still P25. At about the same time the McLaughlin sample was tested for P25 other DSNP tests were reported. Bernard Morgan of this list had one done in April 2007 and the results were reported as follows: R1b1a2a1a1b4b P25+ M343+ M269+ M222+ M207+ M173+ SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M18- M160- M153- M126- The P25 SNP results reported in the project are essentially orphans that have never been upgraded or checked for any SNP except P25. I will stand by that deduction, It could easily be verified through FTDNA should anyone desire to do so. (assuming you can find a way to ask the question). These are not examples of M222 negative samples that just happen to match the M222 STR pattern. There are some out there. Possibly more we don't know about. Perhaps even some in the project although I think the likelihood of that is extremely low. If someone would be so kind as to relieve me of any responsibility for the M222 project you could do what you wish with it. Make everyone take an SNP test. Drop all untested samples from the project. David Wilson wouldn't care. He's retired anyway. He asked me a few months ago to try and replace him. No luck yet. John

In a message dated 10/12/2011 11:20:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: John, The answer is, you possibly are, but since other McLoughlin's are also close to the Modal STR values and are tested negative for M222, then only passing an M222 SNP test will give you the answer to your question - it's as simple as that. This is really our only source of disagreement and it's one that can be settled one way or the other with a full explanation of what those P25 results really mean. I'm not really sure how to do that however. Not yet any way. I already gave my opinion on what the results mean. I don't think any of them have been tested for M222. John

Susan, In regards to your question about the Middle East, you need to remember that most of Ireland and Britain were under glaciers just 10,000 years ago or so - like Greenland today. Later much of Europe was re-peopled from Western Asia and elsewhere in 3 or perhaps 4 waves of settlement. The current theory is that each successive wave largely exterminated the previous males lineages. So most Western European Y-DNA lineages are derived from Western Asian ones, from only 4,000 years ago or so. So most people in Ireland and Britain have lineages derived from Western Asian ones, but some individuals have much older ones. In regards to your comments on the debate over the use of SNP's, Bill has not answered the pivotal question of why he included people who are both positive and negative for the M222 SNP in his calculations. He has also brushed aside Busby's paper - which echoed my criticism of his methodology - as it it didn't apply to him or his RCC methodology. Then he further tried to redefine what the acronym SNP actually meant. For the record, it does not refer to a collection of STR values, rather a single point mutation. These are serious issues and he has make no attempt to address them. It's as if he's saying, "Hey folks I have all the answers, and using my RCC can give you the exact date for the TMRCA of M222, accurate to 2-decimal places", then when I question his data and methods, he responds, "OK I can give you the answer correct to 10-decimal places, using the exact same data and methods". He keeps wanting to use his new RCC toy again and again, rather than step back and look at what some of us are saying to him... Cheers, Paul On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > I actually have a question that pertains to some of the other postings; > however, I'm going to preface with a couple of remarks. Some of you men > are behaving like children in the sand box squabbling over whose match > box car is the best, and most of you haven't purchased the cars you are > playing with. > > I review this board for interesting discussion regarding the sub-clave, > the various histories some contribute, the discussions of origins, > technical data, substantive remarks which very often are informative and > educational -- not bashing one another over utilities and models. > > In regard to the Howard Model, I requested from Mr. Howard to run the > M222 groups out of the project which I tested under, and he graciously > ran several one of the entire M222 (about 15% of over 750+++ > participants) + some others we threw in which are questionable as to > whether or not they are truly M222 even though some did SNP positive, > but they are so off modal that they are more than ambiguous, and perhaps > actually fall into the new sub-clave -- don't know that yet. > > The phylogenetic tree produced just happened to turn out very close to > what the histories surrounding times we would expect for ancestors of > these test subjects. Long story which I won't go it to; however it > supports a work in progress which began long before I requested Bill's > analysis. > > This is not the only analytical look, either. John Lochlan ran McGee; > the Jantzen Utility was Run; I asked Sandy Patterson to do a run; > Nordtv. & Harold ASD comparisons were also run. Believe it or not, > fellas, all the utilities and models for what they do are supportive of > one another. > > McGee has its shortfalls in that it operates on genetic distance; ASD > happens to estimate a bit too short; Patterson & Howard were actually > very close together with time lines, and Howard's tree is spectacular. > > I would suggest strongly to opinionate all you want, but until the rest > of you develop your own models and/or utilities and write papers of the > findings, play nice in the sand box because for one I am getting sick of > it. > > Now onto my question: Has anyone looked into what the genetic impact on > the middle east that of the Europeans impressed into the Roman Army, > Europeans during the crusades, and the Celtic settlements in Turkey (the > Galatians for you Bible readers) and elsewhere might have had in regard > to the recent R1b discussions recently on this list? Susan > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

John, The answer is, you possibly are, but since other McLoughlin's are also close to the Modal STR values and are tested negative for M222, then only passing an M222 SNP test will give you the answer to your question - it's as simple as that. In regards to past members of the list advocating for not SNP testing, and feeling that being close to the Modal values was enough, you'll find - if you search the archives - that I highly contested this view when it was first mooted on this list, as I still do now. Again I think that finding a group with similar STR values and having members both positive and negative for M222 is huge, as this helps us home in on where the SNP possibly first arose. Obviously since we are talking about a SNP, then one unique individual had this mutation first and it spread through his descendants. Of course unless he packed his bags and left his home area, then other relatives around him would still be Pre-M222 or negative for M2222. So finding people who are Pre-M222 is almost as usefull as finding people who are M222+. Cheers, Paul On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:03 PM, <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > Does anyone seriously think my kit > is not M222? (75919). I'm in a group at the McLaughlin DNA project with > close matches to several other McLaughlins who have been SNP tested. >

Iain, So on the M222 Project page are you listed in RED (rough estimate) or GREEN (actual tested), I would imagine you would be listed in red, as that indicates a rough estimate of your haplogroup, based on just your STR values. Your actual haplogroup is ONLY based on the results of a SNP test, and that would be Green. If FTDNA allowed you to upload your results from Ethnoancestry, and they accepted your SNP results, then it should be Green. BTW, what were the SNP's you tested for, was one of them M222? Cheers, Paul On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com>wrote: > > A useful reminder, as I did my M222 test at Ethnoancestry so I have never > thought it worth spending twice to get it confirmed by FTDNA. At the latter > I am probably still flagged with just a predicted (and higher level) > haplogroup. > IainM222+ > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:05:09 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Summary of a distracting series > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/11/2011 6:23:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > > pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > > > > John, > > > > People whose haplotype show up in Green have been SNP tested. They are > > given > > the designation of their terminal SNP - the last one they are positive > for. > > I was one of the early testers of the Deep Clade test, and M222 was > > available then. Some other companies had SNP tests available prior to > this, > > FTDNA was not the first to offer SNP tests. > > > > I couldn't find any way to contact FTDNA but I did find some discussion > of > > others with single P25+ results identical to those in the M222 project. > > > > > > Apparently these were very early tests done by FTDNA prior to adopting > > deep clade SNP testing. EthnoAncestry was doing them much earlier. > > > > "I suspect FTDNA was feeling a little competitive pressure from other > > testing > > companies. FTDNA is the market leader for Y-DYS testing (our Short > Tandem > > Repeats), but they didn't offer the best packages for SNP (Single > > Nucleotide > > Polymorphism) testing. For example, when I had them run my SNP early in > > 2005, the only result I received was P25 positive; enough to identify me > > as > > R1b1, but all I got was the result on that one marker. Still, the test > was > > only 65 bucks so I wasn't complaining." > > > > Another post says: > > > > "My personal Haplogroup page at FTDNA (no deep clade test from FTDNA) > > Your Haplogroup (&) Tests R1b1 P25+" > > > > He then compares his results to a cousin who took the full deep clade > test. > > > > "An R1b1* haplogroup page (one of my “cousins”) > > Your Haplogroup (&) Tests > > R1b1 M173+ M207+ M343+ P25+ M126- M153- M160- M18- M222- M269- M37- > > M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-" > > > > "Please note that the pluses and minuses agree that P25 was/is > > universally tested by FTDNA and all subclades are verified as > > negative except for me as my R1b confirmation test was run prior to > > the offering of deep clade tests. (EthnoAncestry ran my deep clade > > tests.) I can not personally attest to what tests by FTDNA are run; > > but, I remember that several contributors to this digest kvetch > > about their use of P25." > > > > > > So I do not think these samples are necessarily M222-. Or negative for > > M269 or L21. They simply haven't been tested since the very early days > at > > FTDNA. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Linda, Hi first I'm not certain which thread your are interpreting I down graded. My intention when I went back into the list was to post a question and then began reading through the other discussions. My objection to some aspects of these discussions are the apparent personal attacks made on individuals who have spent a considerable amount of time, research, and effort to develop utilities and models to look at data resulting from the genetic genealogy testing with hope that the results produced by the computerized looks at the data may indeed shed some clarifying light on a whole host of things from TMRCA to narrowing the time scale for mutations and spread of those mutations. It is one thing to post a question for clarification, results explanations, discuss informed disagreement of results, further need for research and how that could be implemented, whether or not this or that genetic test is worth the money, whether or not enough data has been collected and/or analyzed, and even the analytical models -- pros and cons -- all of that; however these discussions very often degrade on their own and depending on the posters begin to involve personalities rather than the subject at hand. All opinions are valid particularly to each poster; however some of these posts have teetered into crossing the line of civility. In regard to my comments about the sand box, I think my credentials aren't an issue; however you pose a fair question. In addition to an MA/Ed with further post graduate work, 40 years of genealogy research, a business owner of 33 years, a volunteer research member of an active project with-in YDNA , and a member of this group I cannot attest to any lofty credentials; however, I will not follow suit and ask what yours are or why my credentials are important or necessary to comment and/or question; or why my post is erroneously interpreted to down grade which discussion are you referring to? In regard to the various utilities and models, the research I have undertaken has employed as many as are available to have a run on the data sets I'm researching with out a bias or preconceived notion as to which is best. They all look at the data differently, using different parameters, and seeking some somewhat different information and possible conclusions. In terms of establishing some TMRCA understandings in regard to the data looked at, it is interesting for me to note that they all actually compliment one another quite nicely -- results aren't exact among them, but one would not expect there to be, and the margin of error either implicit and/or inferred in the understandings of interpreting the results yielded by each would explain part of that. In regard to the question I asked, there has been discussion both on this list and in the news regarding R1b results from certain populations in the middle east which is being looked at with interest. This subject also interests me. Of consideration is migration of Europeans into those areas back into antiquity whose presence alone would have introduced their own R1b genetic material. I simply asked the question of whether or not anyone knew what impact those introductions may have had on those populations with extrapolated theories which would be of note in regard to the current testing underway now. I hope this answered your question and if you have further don't hesitate contacting me off list so as not to bore and/or distract the list from the business at hand. Susan

Susan and Paul, Acceptance into the WTY is not an issue - I've been "accepted" for a long time, see 7874 in the "NW Irish", and I contributed $50 years ago as seed money, so presumably I'm still in credit to that extent. The seed hasn't sprouted yet! David Grierson On 12/10/2011 4:50 AM, Susan Milligan wrote: > I'm already on record saying I would be willing to contribute toward a WTY, > but it is worth reconfirming it. I do think, however, that the fund should > wait until a participant has been accepted into the WTY program. There is > always the chance that an applicant could be rejected. I'm not sure it > there is a mechanism to return the contributions in that case. Although I > don't suppose I would mind if my contribution went toward a few M222 SNP > tests instead. > > Susan Milligan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Conroy"<pconroy63@gmail.com> > To:<grierson@melbpc.org.au>;<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:56 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] M222 and WTY > > >> David, >> >> I definitely think some of the smaller clusters that have been identified >> in >> the M222 clade should be analysed via WTY. >> >> I suggested a year or two ago, that testing the NW cluster (main group) >> probably wouldn't yield much, and it seems I'm right. This is because it's >> so uniform and young. However testing the Nith Valley Cluster (Greer, >> Grierson, Milligan), or people like myself in Southern Midlands of Ireland >> (Dunne, Dalton) might prove fruitful, as would testing a representative >> Breifne (O'Rielly, O'Rourke) member. >> >> I would be in favor of setting up a fund to support the cost of doing >> this. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1522/3943 - Release Date: 10/07/11 > >

A useful reminder, as I did my M222 test at Ethnoancestry so I have never thought it worth spending twice to get it confirmed by FTDNA. At the latter I am probably still flagged with just a predicted (and higher level) haplogroup. IainM222+ > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:05:09 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Summary of a distracting series > > > > In a message dated 10/11/2011 6:23:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > > John, > > People whose haplotype show up in Green have been SNP tested. They are > given > the designation of their terminal SNP - the last one they are positive for. > I was one of the early testers of the Deep Clade test, and M222 was > available then. Some other companies had SNP tests available prior to this, > FTDNA was not the first to offer SNP tests. > > I couldn't find any way to contact FTDNA but I did find some discussion of > others with single P25+ results identical to those in the M222 project. > > > Apparently these were very early tests done by FTDNA prior to adopting > deep clade SNP testing. EthnoAncestry was doing them much earlier. > > "I suspect FTDNA was feeling a little competitive pressure from other > testing > companies. FTDNA is the market leader for Y-DYS testing (our Short Tandem > Repeats), but they didn't offer the best packages for SNP (Single > Nucleotide > Polymorphism) testing. For example, when I had them run my SNP early in > 2005, the only result I received was P25 positive; enough to identify me > as > R1b1, but all I got was the result on that one marker. Still, the test was > only 65 bucks so I wasn't complaining." > > Another post says: > > "My personal Haplogroup page at FTDNA (no deep clade test from FTDNA) > Your Haplogroup (&) Tests R1b1 P25+" > > He then compares his results to a cousin who took the full deep clade test. > > "An R1b1* haplogroup page (one of my “cousins”) > Your Haplogroup (&) Tests > R1b1 M173+ M207+ M343+ P25+ M126- M153- M160- M18- M222- M269- M37- > M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-" > > "Please note that the pluses and minuses agree that P25 was/is > universally tested by FTDNA and all subclades are verified as > negative except for me as my R1b confirmation test was run prior to > the offering of deep clade tests. (EthnoAncestry ran my deep clade > tests.) I can not personally attest to what tests by FTDNA are run; > but, I remember that several contributors to this digest kvetch > about their use of P25." > > > So I do not think these samples are necessarily M222-. Or negative for > M269 or L21. They simply haven't been tested since the very early days at > FTDNA. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In reponse to Susan Hedeen<chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> Subject: [R-M222] New thread, Utilities& Models My judgment of your last post and then a question for Susan Hedeen: Some of your last post may be appropriate at times but not when concerning the thread you have just downgraded. The thread that you are making trivial is anything but.............. And, indeed is a very serious matter to many of us. My question for you is about your credentials that gives you latitude to make such comments on these serious discussions. What are your credentials? Linda McKee Volunteer Admin for FTDNA McKee Group FTDNA Kit # 127187 Researcher whose test interest is proven R M-222 on 23andme analysis (copy available)

Greetings, All, Apparently I am M222, according to Family Tree, but I have no idea as to what WTY could be. Not that I need a detailed explanation, but what is WTY and what could WTY determine? If WTY indeed is relevant, then I would be glad to make a financial contribution. Thanks! Doug On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:21 PM, J David Grierson <grierson@melbpc.org.au> wrote: > Susan and Paul, > Acceptance into the WTY is not an issue - I've been "accepted" for a > long time, see 7874 in the "NW Irish", and I contributed $50 years ago > as seed money, so presumably I'm still in credit to that extent. The > seed hasn't sprouted yet! > David Grierson > > > On 12/10/2011 4:50 AM, Susan Milligan wrote: >> I'm already on record saying I would be willing to contribute toward a WTY, >> but it is worth reconfirming it.  I do think, however, that the fund should >> wait until a participant has been accepted into the WTY program.  There is >> always the chance that an applicant could be rejected.  I'm not sure it >> there is a mechanism to return the contributions in that case.  Although I >> don't suppose I would mind if my contribution went toward a few M222 SNP >> tests instead. >> >> Susan Milligan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Paul Conroy"<pconroy63@gmail.com> >> To:<grierson@melbpc.org.au>;<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:56 AM >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] M222 and WTY >> >> >>> David, >>> >>> I definitely think some of the smaller clusters that have been identified >>> in >>> the M222 clade should be analysed via WTY. >>> >>> I suggested a year or two ago, that testing the NW cluster (main group) >>> probably wouldn't yield much, and it seems I'm right. This is because it's >>> so uniform and young. However testing the Nith Valley Cluster (Greer, >>> Grierson, Milligan), or people like myself in Southern Midlands of Ireland >>> (Dunne, Dalton) might prove fruitful, as would testing a representative >>> Breifne (O'Rielly, O'Rourke) member. >>> >>> I would be in favor of setting up a fund to support the cost of doing >>> this. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Paul >>   R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1522/3943 - Release Date: 10/07/11 >> >> > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I actually have a question that pertains to some of the other postings; however, I'm going to preface with a couple of remarks. Some of you men are behaving like children in the sand box squabbling over whose match box car is the best, and most of you haven't purchased the cars you are playing with. I review this board for interesting discussion regarding the sub-clave, the various histories some contribute, the discussions of origins, technical data, substantive remarks which very often are informative and educational -- not bashing one another over utilities and models. In regard to the Howard Model, I requested from Mr. Howard to run the M222 groups out of the project which I tested under, and he graciously ran several one of the entire M222 (about 15% of over 750+++ participants) + some others we threw in which are questionable as to whether or not they are truly M222 even though some did SNP positive, but they are so off modal that they are more than ambiguous, and perhaps actually fall into the new sub-clave -- don't know that yet. The phylogenetic tree produced just happened to turn out very close to what the histories surrounding times we would expect for ancestors of these test subjects. Long story which I won't go it to; however it supports a work in progress which began long before I requested Bill's analysis. This is not the only analytical look, either. John Lochlan ran McGee; the Jantzen Utility was Run; I asked Sandy Patterson to do a run; Nordtv. & Harold ASD comparisons were also run. Believe it or not, fellas, all the utilities and models for what they do are supportive of one another. McGee has its shortfalls in that it operates on genetic distance; ASD happens to estimate a bit too short; Patterson & Howard were actually very close together with time lines, and Howard's tree is spectacular. I would suggest strongly to opinionate all you want, but until the rest of you develop your own models and/or utilities and write papers of the findings, play nice in the sand box because for one I am getting sick of it. Now onto my question: Has anyone looked into what the genetic impact on the middle east that of the Europeans impressed into the Roman Army, Europeans during the crusades, and the Celtic settlements in Turkey (the Galatians for you Bible readers) and elsewhere might have had in regard to the recent R1b discussions recently on this list? Susan

This is an old post in 2007 shortly after the list began by David Wilson explaining in part how he analyses M222 samples. "The sure test for R1b1c7 membership is a finding of derived (= positive) status on the Single Nucleotide Polymorphism called M222. This SNP is one of the SNPs tested by FTDNA in their DeepSNP testing option. If you want to be sure, you should order that test. But in the absence of a SNP test, you can get an indication from the values for specific markers in your haplotype. If you go to www.ftdna.com/public/R1b1c7 you will see a list of STR values that are characteristic of R1b1c7 haplotypes. Not all R1b1c7 haplotypes will have all of those values, but any R1b1c7 haplotype will have most of those values. If you are looking for a fast evaluation based on just the first 12 markers, the shorthand indicator is this: If you have 390=25, 385b=13 and 392=14, you are almost certainly R1b1c7. If you have any two of those values, you are very likely to be R1b1c7. If you do NOT have at least two of those values, you are very likely NOT to be R1b1c7. If you don't have any of those values, you are not R1b1c7." He repeats the same info on the M222 site at FTDNA. "The R-M222 project is open to all individuals who have a derived (i.e., positive)test result on the M222 SNP. The project also welcomes individuals who have not been SNP tested, but whose haplotypes show most of the following values: DYS390= 25 DYS385b = 13 DYS392 = 14 DYS448 = 18 DYS449 = 30 DYS464 = 15-16-16-17 DSY456 = 17 DYS607 = 16 DYS413 = 21-23 DYS534 = 16 DYS481 = 25 (FTDNAconvention; = 24 EthnoAncestry convention)* DYS714 = 24 " "In most cases the first three STRs in the list above are adequate to establish membership in this group. If you have at least two of those three values and differ by only one at the mismatching marker, you are very probably (though not certainly) a member of the R-M222 haplogroup. If you are uncertain about whether you belong to Haplogroup R-M222, please contact the project administrator and co-administrator for advice." John

David, You are right that FAMILIA is not like Science, Nature or the PNAS. We chose it however because its readership was mainly in Ireland and Scotland, because they have started to publish papers on Y-DNA analysis and how it works with pedigrees and genealogy, because it contained so many surnames of interest in that area of the world, and because of the great enthusiasm of the editor when we showed him preliminary drafts. Another reason was that the Journal of Genetic Genealogy had had a change of editors and it was taking a very long time to publish presumably because the editor was a working lawyer, and we were looking for an alternative. The three journals you mentioned appear to specialize in areas that did not coincide with the interface between genealogy and genetics. Just today we learned that our two papers on Gordons and the phylogenetic tree have been JoGG-approved, but we had already submitted the two to FAMILIA. And, of course, the JoGG, although an on-line journal, ! does referee their submittals using referees who are well-versed in both genetics and genealogy. The two seminal papers about the RCC technique have already appeared in a refereed JoGG edition, and references to those two papers have been communicated in the past to this list. Some of the list have commented favorably on the approach, but of course, when you are breaking new ground with new techniques, there will always be skeptics. None of the skeptics have pointed out any fundamental problems with this approach, and I find that many skeptics show that they don't understand the approach, have not thought deeply about the contents of the papers, or have not read the FAQs that address the questions that they have. I hope this explains our motivation in this new and fascinating area of genealogy and genetics. - Bye from Bill Howard On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:11 PM, DAVID MACLENNAN wrote: > Dear Bill, > I would like to comment on your statement "We are publishing our results > in a refereed journal, so it will be a part of our scientific legacy". The > journal FAMILIA published by the Ulster Historical Society is not a high > impact journal like Science, Nature or PNAS, where rigorous standards of > peer review are upheld. I may believe your RCC model and your assertions > that you can get an age of a mutation from a mix of haplotypes, some of > which have the mutation and some of which don't, when your results are > reproduced and published in a high profile journal. > > David

In a message dated 10/11/2011 8:22:27 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: So as you see, some Irish people actually DO HAVE results more like those from the Middle East. That I can believe that. A few years ago I read a National Geographic article that talked about finding two skeletons in a grave near Stonehenge in England. Through various kinds of analysis, mostly dental testing, they determined the older man was born in Switzerland and the younger man, whom they thought could be his son, was born in England. After reading that I became convinced that anyone in the ancient world could wind up anywhere. John

John, Just checked my 23andMe, and some of my 750+ Relatives are way upstream of R-M222, for example: R1b: 1. Magee - Irish 2. McCann - Irish R1b1: 1. Bappa - Fulani from Nigeria R1b1b2: 1. Urovish - Ashkenazi Jew from Ukraine 2. Carlson - Norwegian R1b1b2*: 1. Crenson - English 2. Roitman - Ashkenazi Jew ...and so on So as you see, some Irish people actually DO HAVE results more like those from the Middle East. Cheers, Paul On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 8:05 PM, <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/11/2011 6:23:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > > John, > > People whose haplotype show up in Green have been SNP tested. They are > given > the designation of their terminal SNP - the last one they are positive > for. > I was one of the early testers of the Deep Clade test, and M222 was > available then. Some other companies had SNP tests available prior to > this, > FTDNA was not the first to offer SNP tests. > > I couldn't find any way to contact FTDNA but I did find some discussion of > others with single P25+ results identical to those in the M222 project. > > > Apparently these were very early tests done by FTDNA prior to adopting > deep clade SNP testing. EthnoAncestry was doing them much earlier. > > "I suspect FTDNA was feeling a little competitive pressure from other > testing > companies. FTDNA is the market leader for Y-DYS testing (our Short Tandem > Repeats), but they didn't offer the best packages for SNP (Single > Nucleotide > Polymorphism) testing. For example, when I had them run my SNP early in > 2005, the only result I received was P25 positive; enough to identify me > as > R1b1, but all I got was the result on that one marker. Still, the test was > only 65 bucks so I wasn't complaining." > > Another post says: > > "My personal Haplogroup page at FTDNA (no deep clade test from FTDNA) > Your Haplogroup (&) Tests R1b1 P25+" > > He then compares his results to a cousin who took the full deep clade > test. > > "An R1b1* haplogroup page (one of my “cousins”) > Your Haplogroup (&) Tests > R1b1 M173+ M207+ M343+ P25+ M126- M153- M160- M18- M222- M269- M37- > M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-" > > "Please note that the pluses and minuses agree that P25 was/is > universally tested by FTDNA and all subclades are verified as > negative except for me as my R1b confirmation test was run prior to > the offering of deep clade tests. (EthnoAncestry ran my deep clade > tests.) I can not personally attest to what tests by FTDNA are run; > but, I remember that several contributors to this digest kvetch > about their use of P25." > > > So I do not think these samples are necessarily M222-. Or negative for > M269 or L21. They simply haven't been tested since the very early days at > FTDNA. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Paul, I, too, have been considering the WTY, but I also understood that no knew tests would be programmed for some time - next year perhaps. I thought that only one test had been done, however I see that the WTY site has been amended to state three tests complete. But on the face of it, all those names are very "Irish". I think we have a case for a "Scots" descendant to undergo the test as well, if only to see whether those with distinctive off-modal characteristics also carry a family SNP. David On 11/10/2011 12:48 AM, pabloburns@comcast.net wrote: > I am sure we all were hoping that with all the new SNPs being discovered, one would be identified to divide M222. Apparently, no such luck. I asked David Reynolds if it would help for me to take the WTY test. David replied that only one M222 has been tested, but the young age of M222 may mean no additional SNP. He suggested I wait until the current backlog of WTY orders is run through, and after 2-3 months he will look at this again. > I then queried Kirsten Saxe, and she replied that the Finch2 data indicates that three M222 have been tested--137003 (Mannion), 17624, and 192014. Kirsten did not have names for the latter two, but I found 192014 (McNeely) on the M222 project list. I could not identify 17624. > Can anyone confirm that three M222s have been WTY tested with no new SNPs discovered? If only one has been tested, I am willing to hazard the $750 cost, but if three have been tested with no additional info discovered, perhaps I should wait for a future increase in the size of the test. > Paul > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1522/3943 - Release Date: 10/07/11 > >

In a message dated 10/11/2011 6:23:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: John, People whose haplotype show up in Green have been SNP tested. They are given the designation of their terminal SNP - the last one they are positive for. I was one of the early testers of the Deep Clade test, and M222 was available then. Some other companies had SNP tests available prior to this, FTDNA was not the first to offer SNP tests. I couldn't find any way to contact FTDNA but I did find some discussion of others with single P25+ results identical to those in the M222 project. Apparently these were very early tests done by FTDNA prior to adopting deep clade SNP testing. EthnoAncestry was doing them much earlier. "I suspect FTDNA was feeling a little competitive pressure from other testing companies. FTDNA is the market leader for Y-DYS testing (our Short Tandem Repeats), but they didn't offer the best packages for SNP (Single Nucleotide Polymorphism) testing. For example, when I had them run my SNP early in 2005, the only result I received was P25 positive; enough to identify me as R1b1, but all I got was the result on that one marker. Still, the test was only 65 bucks so I wasn't complaining." Another post says: "My personal Haplogroup page at FTDNA (no deep clade test from FTDNA) Your Haplogroup (&) Tests R1b1 P25+" He then compares his results to a cousin who took the full deep clade test. "An R1b1* haplogroup page (one of my “cousins”) Your Haplogroup (&) Tests R1b1 M173+ M207+ M343+ P25+ M126- M153- M160- M18- M222- M269- M37- M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-" "Please note that the pluses and minuses agree that P25 was/is universally tested by FTDNA and all subclades are verified as negative except for me as my R1b confirmation test was run prior to the offering of deep clade tests. (EthnoAncestry ran my deep clade tests.) I can not personally attest to what tests by FTDNA are run; but, I remember that several contributors to this digest kvetch about their use of P25." So I do not think these samples are necessarily M222-. Or negative for M269 or L21. They simply haven't been tested since the very early days at FTDNA. John

Hi Paul I can confirm that Bill e-mailed me out of forum to explain why he declined Ken Nordtvedt's challenge. I can also state that I burst out laughing when I read his e-mail. However, it is his right to e-mail me directly, and it would be wrong of me to divulge the contents of his e-mail. Nonetheless, I think that it would be in the interests of the M222 forum if he were to post his reasons in-forum. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 11 October 2011 19:03 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Summary of a distracting series Bill, I have read your description of your methodology and found it was based on STR variation, both myself and Busby pointed out the problems with this.

In a message dated 10/11/2011 6:23:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: People whose haplotype show up in Green have been SNP tested. They are given the designation of their terminal SNP - the last one they are positive for. I was one of the early testers of the Deep Clade test, and M222 was available then. Some other companies had SNP tests available prior to this, FTDNA was not the first to offer SNP tests. I don't think that is correct but I'd have to check with FTDNA. This is how SNP results are normally reported: M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222+, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P66-, SRY2627- Every SNP tested is listed and given a plus or minus. Lately, I've seen a lot of stand alone M222 tests. You can order them that way and not test for M269, L21 or P25. Even those without SNP tests are listed as M269 which is downstream from P25. So this little group of P25 results does not make any sense to me. John