Marie, These were a list compiled by Walter Freeman as close matches to him...and myself (My line is a Freeman NPE). Sandy was just replying to it. Off the top of my head, some of them have off modal matches with the large Ewing group as I do. Some of them have derivative surnames on the Ragman's roll in places like Peebleshire in 1196 as I do, a stones throw from Ewing country. This is getting kind of interesting. Regards, Steve > From: mkerr.shamrock@comcast.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:46:15 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Sandy, > > Could you explain why this list is interesting? My father, James J. Golden, > is on it. His parents were natives of Rathlacken, a tiny town in northern > Co. Mayo. The name is one of the various Anglicized versions of > MacUalhairg, e.g., Golding, Goulding, and (Mac)Goldrick). They were > definitely Irish (native Gaelic speakers and all that). My grandfather had > a strong aversion to the English because of their heavy-handedness: among > other things for the Anglicization they imposed (the Irish were forbidden to > teach, speak and write Gaelic), the Famine... > > And BTW, I thank you and all of the men I refer to as "the smart guys" > (Bernard Morgan, David Ewing, Paul Conroy, John Lochlan, Bill Howard, Iain > Kennedy, Pablo Burns, and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone). You all bring a > lively, informed and interesting perspective on things. While we don't > always agree on the "why" of our searches, it's fascinating all the same on > so many levels. > > Thanks, > Marie Golden Kerr on behalf of James J. Golden. He was my father, a WWII > vet, and he died last week at the age of 91. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:10 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Walter > > No, I haven't leapt anywhere. But this list is interesting : > > >> > Brown > Cannon > Carnes > Carroll > Cawthon > Coyne (2) > Creegan > Daugherty > Folan > Gilmore > Golden > Graham > Heflin > Holt > Hughes > Kanary > Kennedy > Lawson > MacAulay > MacKenzie > Manley > Mawhorter > McAdams > McCall > McGrath > McKemmish > McLaughlin (2) > Munnelly > Neel > Queen > Quinn > Rice > Sinclair > Soakell > Taylor > Thrasher > Towey > Whitehead > Wilson > Yakes > Young > > which, of course, doesn't prove anything except that it is likely that we > are not English. Include 37 marker matches (excluding the duplicates who > tested to 67) and the list becomes increasingly Celtic. > >> > > I recently acquired a copy of Black's book 'The Surnames of Scotland'. Most > of the above surnames are in the book (that doesn't mean they originated in > Scotland, merely that they are found there). > > Also, Black mentions a Robert Fremansone, burgess of Jeddeworthe, 1296 (Bain > II, p 197). > > Jeddeworthe is in Co Lanark, Scotland. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Sandy, Could you explain why this list is interesting? My father, James J. Golden, is on it. His parents were natives of Rathlacken, a tiny town in northern Co. Mayo. The name is one of the various Anglicized versions of MacUalhairg, e.g., Golding, Goulding, and (Mac)Goldrick). They were definitely Irish (native Gaelic speakers and all that). My grandfather had a strong aversion to the English because of their heavy-handedness: among other things for the Anglicization they imposed (the Irish were forbidden to teach, speak and write Gaelic), the Famine... And BTW, I thank you and all of the men I refer to as "the smart guys" (Bernard Morgan, David Ewing, Paul Conroy, John Lochlan, Bill Howard, Iain Kennedy, Pablo Burns, and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone). You all bring a lively, informed and interesting perspective on things. While we don't always agree on the "why" of our searches, it's fascinating all the same on so many levels. Thanks, Marie Golden Kerr on behalf of James J. Golden. He was my father, a WWII vet, and he died last week at the age of 91. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:10 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches Hi Walter No, I haven't leapt anywhere. But this list is interesting : >> Brown Cannon Carnes Carroll Cawthon Coyne (2) Creegan Daugherty Folan Gilmore Golden Graham Heflin Holt Hughes Kanary Kennedy Lawson MacAulay MacKenzie Manley Mawhorter McAdams McCall McGrath McKemmish McLaughlin (2) Munnelly Neel Queen Quinn Rice Sinclair Soakell Taylor Thrasher Towey Whitehead Wilson Yakes Young which, of course, doesn't prove anything except that it is likely that we are not English. Include 37 marker matches (excluding the duplicates who tested to 67) and the list becomes increasingly Celtic. >> I recently acquired a copy of Black's book 'The Surnames of Scotland'. Most of the above surnames are in the book (that doesn't mean they originated in Scotland, merely that they are found there). Also, Black mentions a Robert Fremansone, burgess of Jeddeworthe, 1296 (Bain II, p 197). Jeddeworthe is in Co Lanark, Scotland. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Haws anyone on this site tested for DF23, the SNP believed to be downstream of L21 and upstream of M222? I don't find it on my "Advanced Orders" link and am wondering if it even is available yet. Paul
Hi Walter No, I haven't leapt anywhere. But this list is interesting : >> Brown Cannon Carnes Carroll Cawthon Coyne (2) Creegan Daugherty Folan Gilmore Golden Graham Heflin Holt Hughes Kanary Kennedy Lawson MacAulay MacKenzie Manley Mawhorter McAdams McCall McGrath McKemmish McLaughlin (2) Munnelly Neel Queen Quinn Rice Sinclair Soakell Taylor Thrasher Towey Whitehead Wilson Yakes Young which, of course, doesn't prove anything except that it is likely that we are not English. Include 37 marker matches (excluding the duplicates who tested to 67) and the list becomes increasingly Celtic. >> I recently acquired a copy of Black's book 'The Surnames of Scotland'. Most of the above surnames are in the book (that doesn't mean they originated in Scotland, merely that they are found there). Also, Black mentions a Robert Fremansone, burgess of Jeddeworthe, 1296 (Bain II, p 197). Jeddeworthe is in Co Lanark, Scotland. Sandy
Another cursory glance has a number of surnames in the M222 project list with matching derivatives in the Ragman Rolls. Probably already touched on in here in the past but there is Fraser, Roche, Boys(Boice), Broun and Cragyn (Creegan) to name just a few....along with the aforementioned Jacob Freman (Freeman). I am assuming Normans and some Scots who took on Norman name spellings/titles. This is kind of interesting for those in the project who don't have a good point of origin and of course the old question on the various treks of M222. Regards, Steve > From: stevelominac@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 05:19:45 -0500 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > Fremansone found here as well, along with a Jacob Freman. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=KHeAAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=Robert+Fremansone&source=bl&ots=-vew0PVjNR&sig=-raLQv6A5tiEiAkjoXPoJnVXqpw&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Robert%20Fremansone&f=false > > Just a cursory search also has Jacob Freman as perhaps a part of the Ragman Rolls in a history of Peebleshire...from 1291. Will have to delve further into this.... > > http://books.google.com/books?id=IKsHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=jacob+freman&source=bl&ots=ayZzEwar5h&sig=IrEueyUlPFc2kZBYvM14x9AnnLY&hl=en#v=onepage&q=jacob%20freman&f=false > > Regards, Steve > > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:09:53 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > Hi Walter > > > > No, I haven't leapt anywhere. But this list is interesting : > > > > >> > > Brown > > Cannon > > Carnes > > Carroll > > Cawthon > > Coyne (2) > > Creegan > > Daugherty > > Folan > > Gilmore > > Golden > > Graham > > Heflin > > Holt > > Hughes > > Kanary > > Kennedy > > Lawson > > MacAulay > > MacKenzie > > Manley > > Mawhorter > > McAdams > > McCall > > McGrath > > McKemmish > > McLaughlin (2) > > Munnelly > > Neel > > Queen > > Quinn > > Rice > > Sinclair > > Soakell > > Taylor > > Thrasher > > Towey > > Whitehead > > Wilson > > Yakes > > Young > > > > which, of course, doesn't prove anything except that it is likely that > > we are not English. Include 37 marker matches (excluding the duplicates > > who tested to 67) and the list becomes increasingly Celtic. > > >> > > > > I recently acquired a copy of Black's book 'The Surnames of Scotland'. Most > > of the above surnames are in the book (that doesn't mean they originated in > > Scotland, merely that they are found there). > > > > Also, Black mentions a Robert Fremansone, burgess of Jeddeworthe, 1296 (Bain > > II, p 197). > > > > Jeddeworthe is in Co Lanark, Scotland. > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Fremansone found here as well, along with a Jacob Freman. http://books.google.com/books?id=KHeAAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=Robert+Fremansone&source=bl&ots=-vew0PVjNR&sig=-raLQv6A5tiEiAkjoXPoJnVXqpw&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Robert%20Fremansone&f=false Just a cursory search also has Jacob Freman as perhaps a part of the Ragman Rolls in a history of Peebleshire...from 1291. Will have to delve further into this.... http://books.google.com/books?id=IKsHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=jacob+freman&source=bl&ots=ayZzEwar5h&sig=IrEueyUlPFc2kZBYvM14x9AnnLY&hl=en#v=onepage&q=jacob%20freman&f=false Regards, Steve > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:09:53 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Walter > > No, I haven't leapt anywhere. But this list is interesting : > > >> > Brown > Cannon > Carnes > Carroll > Cawthon > Coyne (2) > Creegan > Daugherty > Folan > Gilmore > Golden > Graham > Heflin > Holt > Hughes > Kanary > Kennedy > Lawson > MacAulay > MacKenzie > Manley > Mawhorter > McAdams > McCall > McGrath > McKemmish > McLaughlin (2) > Munnelly > Neel > Queen > Quinn > Rice > Sinclair > Soakell > Taylor > Thrasher > Towey > Whitehead > Wilson > Yakes > Young > > which, of course, doesn't prove anything except that it is likely that > we are not English. Include 37 marker matches (excluding the duplicates > who tested to 67) and the list becomes increasingly Celtic. > >> > > I recently acquired a copy of Black's book 'The Surnames of Scotland'. Most > of the above surnames are in the book (that doesn't mean they originated in > Scotland, merely that they are found there). > > Also, Black mentions a Robert Fremansone, burgess of Jeddeworthe, 1296 (Bain > II, p 197). > > Jeddeworthe is in Co Lanark, Scotland. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Ahh...time for me to come in from the lurk. Sandy, mayhaps you are leaping in the direction of a conclusion with the "It sounds English to me ...?" While I have been at this game for many decades and DNA tested in 2002, I was not sure if my line was also not English, in spite of the family tradition. After all this was hearsay, and as a scientist, I wanted data. DNA has clinched it for me, that we are indeed testable in concordance with family tradition. Steven and I match 65/67. We are both are M222+. (So I suppose that we are keepers regardless of those who would say other wise on this list membership.) I am H4XD6, btw. My line traces to Virginia circa 1785, where my progenitors were probably centered in a locus around Fauquier County. When and how many Freemans were there seems to be somewhat of a mystery still. We also have an unconfirmed hint that my Samuel Freeman ancestor served in the Revolutionary War as a surgeon's mate, and that he went by the name Freeman. My Samuel Freeman came to Georgia between about 1788-1790. Later, others connected to us and bearing the surname Freeman, migrated West to what is now West Virginia after 1800. From that WVA group, others went to Texas and to Ohio and maybe elsewhere. That is what DNA testing has turned up so far. The tradition in my Freeman line is that we are Irish, not English. And so it is that we are distinct amongst all the other R1bs in the Freeman (Carnicle.com) database. Though somewhat circumstantial, but still appropriate, here are the 67 marker surnames GD -5 to -7 with whom Steve and I match in the FTDNA database. Closer in than this, I have a gap in my 67 marker match table with the next set of names (all well known to me and all of whom are traceable to the Fauquier, VA locus) falling -1 _<_ GD _<_ -2. Brown Cannon Carnes Carroll Cawthon Coyne (2) Creegan Daugherty Folan Gilmore Golden Graham Heflin Holt Hughes Kanary Kennedy Lawson MacAulay MacKenzie Manley Mawhorter McAdams McCall McGrath McKemmish McLaughlin (2) Munnelly Neel Queen Quinn Rice Sinclair Soakell Taylor Thrasher Towey Whitehead Wilson Yakes Young which, of course, doesn't prove anything except that it is likely that we are not English. Include 37 marker matches (excluding the duplicates who tested to 67) and the list becomes increasingly Celtic. The name Freeman is not unknown in Ireland, though it is not common. There seems to be a connection between this name, Freeman, and the surname Seery as well, but so far there are no Irish Serrys in the Serry DNA project. Historically, the Irish name Freeman is said to derive from Mhac an t'Saoir <http://web.ncf.ca/cd200/mac31.html> (http://web.ncf.ca/cd200/mac31.html) and likely associates the person as a craftsman, especially a carpenter. If you looked at the link I gave above, is also likely to have been anglicized to Freeman from the Gaelic. Researching common people in Ireland before 1800 is not easy, particularly if there has been a name alteration in the process. But I would expect based on more circumstantial evidence to find that Steve's and my tribe are likely to have sprung from Northern Ireland, quite possibly County Donegal and maybe in the region of the Inishowen pennisula. But this is speculation, but not idle speculation. If you search the annuals of this very list around 2008-2009, for DYS 447 = 24, which I share along with a goodly number of MacLoclans, Dohertys and others there seems to be a hotspot for this marker in the region of County Donegal. As luck would have it, even though Steve and I are 65/67, one of the markers that is different between us is this very same, DYS 447 where Steve = 25 and Mé = 24. Whether Steve's hypothesis that our progenitor sailed from London and not by way of Londonderry is correct or not, I don't know. Our trail runs cold, so far, in Virginia. Walter Freeman On 10/18/2011 10:07 AM, Steven Lominac wrote: > Sandy, > > Ah, you pegged it. Thought I had something there but just noticed the Ireland Freeman (James born in Roscommon in 1789) and a subsequent generation from Castlerea have a 12 at 442. The other M222 Freeman lines that I match have an 11. I have worked out some parallel trees in an excel schematic based on DNA matches with Walter Freeman and some known Freeman NPEs ...along with a couple of genome maternal matches in 23 and Me. Still don't know who the MRCA is with Walter though I am awfully close. This group has a number of branches that connect to some geneaologies posted in ancestry.com that do indeed go into England at least 3-4 and close to five centuries but they have some unsourced, contradictory lines which is why someone like Walter Freeman who has a PHD and is probably more meticulous than I about sources has not extended his tree across the Atlantic from America. I am following their lead at Carnicle.com (Freeman site) and just have a working tree into England. M! > y current working theory is an M222 from Scotland/Ireland made it to England for whatever reason, probably altered their sept/clan name to Freeman for whatever reason and then came to America....for whatever reason. Yeah, I know, vague but at least the off modal match with the Ewings and various Scots is interesting. > > Regards, Steve > > > >> From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:44:00 +0100 >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches >> >> Hi Steve >> >> >> The Freeman line that goes into Ireland - do you know where it originated? >> >> It sounds English to me but there are a few in Scotland too. One of the >> local councillors in Dunoon, Argyllshire (Lamont country) has the surname. >> It's not that common though, only 6 I think in the Lomond and Argyll >> telephone directory. >> >> Sandy >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Steven Lominac >> Sent: 18 October 2011 13:07 >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches >> >> >> Thanks for that post Sandy, it made me check my off modals again. I'm >> six off the 67 modal but only two are what are called slow moving markers. >> 390 and 442. I match the Ewings with the 11 at the 442 but not the 390 >> where I am a 24. Also match them at couple of other off modals, 456-16 and >> CDYa-39. With the exception of a few Burns/Byrnes, I seem to match a flotsam >> and jetsam of surnames (mostly Scots) at 390 and 442. Still working on my >> Freeman paternal lines, there are several different lines most ending in >> America but one that goes into Ireland. There is still a gap between where >> the Freemans end and where I would likely connect to other M222s. On >> another note for the board, one method I have found that works for >> triangulation with family trees (in case your trying to narrow down an NPE >> like myself) is the genome test at 23 and me, like FTDNA's family finder. I >> have been able to find some maternal matches that connected me to the >> Freeman paternal lines for co! >> nfirmation as well as triangulation. >> >> Regards, Steve >> >> >> >>> From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com >>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:34:44 +0100 >>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches >>> >>> Hi Bob >>> >>> If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information >> for >>> you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you >>> Scots accent. >>> >>> I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 >>> markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I >>> think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at >>> >>> DYS19 15 >>> DYS439 13 >>> DYS464c 17 >>> DYS456 16 >>> CDYa 39 >>> CDYb 40 >>> DYS442 11 >>> >>> Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm >>> sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the >>> closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 >> markers >>> including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker >> with >>> the highest Ewing specificity. >>> >>> In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, >> but >>> this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. >>> >>> It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I >>> believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, >> read >>> Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file >>> off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. >>> >>> For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations >>> back. >>> >>> >>> Sandy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn >>> Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 >>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches >>> >>> >>> >>> A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and >>> wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob >>> Bob Quinn >>> President&CEO >>> Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants >>> Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners >>> Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable >>> >>> 27 Langton Lane >>> Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 >>> T:610-331-4920 >>> e-mail:raaq@live.com >>> Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 >>>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>>> From: granoff@zianet.com >>>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches >>>> >>>> >>>> I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value >>>> that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have >>>> R-M222 folks. >>>> >>>> Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley >>>> surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I >>>> have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has >>>> tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also >>>> R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. >>>> >>>> In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the >>>> "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a >>>> large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them >>>> have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a >>>> couple groups where the STR values look like they could be >>>> R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are >>>> positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. >>>> >>>> I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys >>>> with the DYS455=12 value. >>>> >>>> DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most >>>> common value is DYS 455=11. >>>> >>>> I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate >>>> hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo >>>> descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty >>>> clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. >>>> >>>> I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - >>>> DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = >>>> 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. >>>> >>>> I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Marianne Manley Granoff >>>> Project Administrator >>>> Munley/Manley Surname Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>>> >>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Text inserted by Panda GP 2012: > > This message has NOT been classified as spam. 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Hi Bob You can always become an honorary Scot. I've added your haplotype to my files and will attach a file showing your off-modal matches to an off-list e-mail. Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn Sent: 18 October 2011 14:17 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches Thanks, Sandy. I have been working on my basic math and see that I actually miss the modal R-M222 by 8.My kit # is 188933, and I have always liked the Scots. I'll take a closer look at your e-mails later today. Take care. Bob Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:34:44 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Bob > > If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information for > you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you > Scots accent. > > I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 > markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I > think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at > > DYS19 15 > DYS439 13 > DYS464c 17 > DYS456 16 > CDYa 39 > CDYb 40 > DYS442 11 > > Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm > sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the > closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 markers > including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker with > the highest Ewing specificity. > > In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, but > this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. > > It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I > believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, read > Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file > off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. > > For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations > back. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and > wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > From: granoff@zianet.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > > R-M222 folks. > > > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > > with the DYS455=12 value. > > > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > > common value is DYS 455=11. > > > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Marianne Manley Granoff > > Project Administrator > > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Steve The Freeman line that goes into Ireland - do you know where it originated? It sounds English to me but there are a few in Scotland too. One of the local councillors in Dunoon, Argyllshire (Lamont country) has the surname. It's not that common though, only 6 I think in the Lomond and Argyll telephone directory. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Steven Lominac Sent: 18 October 2011 13:07 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches Thanks for that post Sandy, it made me check my off modals again. I'm six off the 67 modal but only two are what are called slow moving markers. 390 and 442. I match the Ewings with the 11 at the 442 but not the 390 where I am a 24. Also match them at couple of other off modals, 456-16 and CDYa-39. With the exception of a few Burns/Byrnes, I seem to match a flotsam and jetsam of surnames (mostly Scots) at 390 and 442. Still working on my Freeman paternal lines, there are several different lines most ending in America but one that goes into Ireland. There is still a gap between where the Freemans end and where I would likely connect to other M222s. On another note for the board, one method I have found that works for triangulation with family trees (in case your trying to narrow down an NPE like myself) is the genome test at 23 and me, like FTDNA's family finder. I have been able to find some maternal matches that connected me to the Freeman paternal lines for co! nfirmation as well as triangulation. Regards, Steve > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:34:44 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Bob > > If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information for > you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you > Scots accent. > > I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 > markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I > think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at > > DYS19 15 > DYS439 13 > DYS464c 17 > DYS456 16 > CDYa 39 > CDYb 40 > DYS442 11 > > Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm > sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the > closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 markers > including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker with > the highest Ewing specificity. > > In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, but > this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. > > It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I > believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, read > Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file > off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. > > For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations > back. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and > wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > From: granoff@zianet.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > > R-M222 folks. > > > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > > with the DYS455=12 value. > > > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > > common value is DYS 455=11. > > > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Marianne Manley Granoff > > Project Administrator > > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Marianne I'm also a value of 12 at 455. McHale is also a name associated with North Mayo. My kit number is 75251 Regards Ray McHale -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Marianne Granoff Sent: Tuesday, 18 October 2011 8:02 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have R-M222 folks. Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a couple groups where the STR values look like they could be R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys with the DYS455=12 value. DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most common value is DYS 455=11. I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. Best regards, Marianne Manley Granoff Project Administrator Munley/Manley Surname Project R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Bob If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information for you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you Scots accent. I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at DYS19 15 DYS439 13 DYS464c 17 DYS456 16 CDYa 39 CDYb 40 DYS442 11 Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 markers including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker with the highest Ewing specificity. In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, but this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, read Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations back. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > From: granoff@zianet.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > R-M222 folks. > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > with the DYS455=12 value. > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > common value is DYS 455=11. > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > Best regards, > > Marianne Manley Granoff > Project Administrator > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thanks, Sandy. I have been working on my basic math and see that I actually miss the modal R-M222 by 8.My kit # is 188933, and I have always liked the Scots. I'll take a closer look at your e-mails later today. Take care. Bob Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:34:44 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Bob > > If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information for > you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you > Scots accent. > > I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 > markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I > think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at > > DYS19 15 > DYS439 13 > DYS464c 17 > DYS456 16 > CDYa 39 > CDYb 40 > DYS442 11 > > Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm > sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the > closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 markers > including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker with > the highest Ewing specificity. > > In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, but > this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. > > It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I > believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, read > Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file > off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. > > For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations > back. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and > wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > From: granoff@zianet.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > > R-M222 folks. > > > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > > with the DYS455=12 value. > > > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > > common value is DYS 455=11. > > > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Marianne Manley Granoff > > Project Administrator > > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Sandy, Ah, you pegged it. Thought I had something there but just noticed the Ireland Freeman (James born in Roscommon in 1789) and a subsequent generation from Castlerea have a 12 at 442. The other M222 Freeman lines that I match have an 11. I have worked out some parallel trees in an excel schematic based on DNA matches with Walter Freeman and some known Freeman NPEs ...along with a couple of genome maternal matches in 23 and Me. Still don't know who the MRCA is with Walter though I am awfully close. This group has a number of branches that connect to some geneaologies posted in ancestry.com that do indeed go into England at least 3-4 and close to five centuries but they have some unsourced, contradictory lines which is why someone like Walter Freeman who has a PHD and is probably more meticulous than I about sources has not extended his tree across the Atlantic from America. I am following their lead at Carnicle.com (Freeman site) and just have a working tree into England. My current working theory is an M222 from Scotland/Ireland made it to England for whatever reason, probably altered their sept/clan name to Freeman for whatever reason and then came to America....for whatever reason. Yeah, I know, vague but at least the off modal match with the Ewings and various Scots is interesting. Regards, Steve > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:44:00 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Steve > > > The Freeman line that goes into Ireland - do you know where it originated? > > It sounds English to me but there are a few in Scotland too. One of the > local councillors in Dunoon, Argyllshire (Lamont country) has the surname. > It's not that common though, only 6 I think in the Lomond and Argyll > telephone directory. > > Sandy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Steven Lominac > Sent: 18 October 2011 13:07 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > Thanks for that post Sandy, it made me check my off modals again. I'm > six off the 67 modal but only two are what are called slow moving markers. > 390 and 442. I match the Ewings with the 11 at the 442 but not the 390 > where I am a 24. Also match them at couple of other off modals, 456-16 and > CDYa-39. With the exception of a few Burns/Byrnes, I seem to match a flotsam > and jetsam of surnames (mostly Scots) at 390 and 442. Still working on my > Freeman paternal lines, there are several different lines most ending in > America but one that goes into Ireland. There is still a gap between where > the Freemans end and where I would likely connect to other M222s. On > another note for the board, one method I have found that works for > triangulation with family trees (in case your trying to narrow down an NPE > like myself) is the genome test at 23 and me, like FTDNA's family finder. I > have been able to find some maternal matches that connected me to the > Freeman paternal lines for co! > nfirmation as well as triangulation. > > Regards, Steve > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:34:44 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > Hi Bob > > > > If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information > for > > you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you > > Scots accent. > > > > I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 > > markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I > > think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at > > > > DYS19 15 > > DYS439 13 > > DYS464c 17 > > DYS456 16 > > CDYa 39 > > CDYb 40 > > DYS442 11 > > > > Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm > > sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the > > closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 > markers > > including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker > with > > the highest Ewing specificity. > > > > In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, > but > > this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. > > > > It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I > > believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, > read > > Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file > > off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. > > > > For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations > > back. > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > > Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > > > A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and > > wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob > > Bob Quinn > > President&CEO > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > > > 27 Langton Lane > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > T:610-331-4920 > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > From: granoff@zianet.com > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > > > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > > > R-M222 folks. > > > > > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > > > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > > > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > > > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > > > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > > > > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > > > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > > > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > > > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > > > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > > > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > > > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > > > > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > > > with the DYS455=12 value. > > > > > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > > > common value is DYS 455=11. > > > > > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > > > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > > > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > > > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > > > > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > > > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > > > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > > > > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Marianne Manley Granoff > > > Project Administrator > > > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Not sure I understand this thread. While I only have one 392=15 and one 389/2=28 (not the same person), all the subgroupings of my 47 NWIs have off-modal STR values in common. My Sligo group has 391=24, 460=12/13, and 425=0 (a recLOH)in common. My Donegal group is 464= 15 16 16 16, 459=16, CDYb=40, and 425=11. My Monaghan group has 391=10, CDYb=38, and 534=15. But isn't this the way everyone divides large clusters? See www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/byrne/results Paul
Thanks for that post Sandy, it made me check my off modals again. I'm six off the 67 modal but only two are what are called slow moving markers. 390 and 442. I match the Ewings with the 11 at the 442 but not the 390 where I am a 24. Also match them at couple of other off modals, 456-16 and CDYa-39. With the exception of a few Burns/Byrnes, I seem to match a flotsam and jetsam of surnames (mostly Scots) at 390 and 442. Still working on my Freeman paternal lines, there are several different lines most ending in America but one that goes into Ireland. There is still a gap between where the Freemans end and where I would likely connect to other M222s. On another note for the board, one method I have found that works for triangulation with family trees (in case your trying to narrow down an NPE like myself) is the genome test at 23 and me, like FTDNA's family finder. I have been able to find some maternal matches that connected me to the Freeman paternal lines for confirmation as well as triangulation. Regards, Steve > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:34:44 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Bob > > If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information for > you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you > Scots accent. > > I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 > markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I > think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at > > DYS19 15 > DYS439 13 > DYS464c 17 > DYS456 16 > CDYa 39 > CDYb 40 > DYS442 11 > > Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm > sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the > closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 markers > including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker with > the highest Ewing specificity. > > In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, but > this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. > > It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I > believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, read > Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file > off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. > > For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations > back. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and > wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > From: granoff@zianet.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > > R-M222 folks. > > > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > > with the DYS455=12 value. > > > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > > common value is DYS 455=11. > > > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Marianne Manley Granoff > > Project Administrator > > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > From: granoff@zianet.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > R-M222 folks. > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > with the DYS455=12 value. > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > common value is DYS 455=11. > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > Best regards, > > Marianne Manley Granoff > Project Administrator > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have R-M222 folks. Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a couple groups where the STR values look like they could be R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys with the DYS455=12 value. DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most common value is DYS 455=11. I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. Best regards, Marianne Manley Granoff Project Administrator Munley/Manley Surname Project
Hey, Susan. The groundswell of non-response should tell us something. If anyone has any ideas about which of the modal values for the R-M222 haplotype , and deviation from such, might tell us the most, I'd like to hear that. Also, I am totally clueless on what time frames certain markers might point toward, so any feeling for that would be appreciated, if that is a (sorta) known area. Regards, Bob Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:55:44 -0400 From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net To: raaq@live.com CC: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches Hi, Bob, I think that it would be a good look no matter what the particular OM markers are, and I would be willing to look in collaboration with other even if their OM marker values are not the same as the particular ones I'm really interested in. I know that some have investigated this some with some of their matches GD matches, but I don't know how many have scoured beyond the matches which have turned up with-in their project pages. I'm not certain either the over all consensus on potential value as I think some believe the randomness among mutations is so dicey, but that may be an educated assumption rather than reality if we are looking with in the same clade. Susan On 10/16/2011 2:43 PM, Bob Quinn wrote: Thanks, Susan. I do not fit into this particular off-modal category, but am very interested in this approach. If anyone else has ideas about interesting R-M222 off-modal markers to explore, please let me know. I am 7 off-modal for 67 markers and tested + for the SNP. Bob Quinn Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:22:51 -0400 > From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > One of the off modal markers which has fascinated me is DYS 392 = 15. > There are several with in M222. > > In review of the M222 project there are 5 Davidson (one w/spelling > Davisson), 2 Clarkson,, a Backer, Byrnes, Crighton, Dougherty, > Fergusson, McClelland, 2 McWhorer, Moore, Patterson, 2 Sizemore. 1 > McConnaughey kit 197231 not listed in the the project page and I believe > there are others as well on this list. > > Fair mix of Irish/Scottish surnames which may or may not be indicative > of anything. I haven't done a good look to see which other markers they > share, but since they all are M222 there is possibly some other off > modal markers. > > There is connection by marriage on paper between this McC and Davidson; > however this connection is that one was a wife (surname Davidson) to > McC and his sister married the wife's brother and this is probably all > just circumstantial and not relevant, but interesting. > > Unlike the others with dys 392 = 15, the McC has a 28 value at 389-2 > which could indicate a rare double mutation, and 389-2 is considered > faster mutating than 392, thus may or may not be of any significance, > also interesting though. > > DYS at 15, however might be an interesting look, since this marker > rarely mutates; it is among the slowest to mutate of all; and in fact > early on during the beginning of DNA testing it was considered to not > mutate at all until the data increased and they noted that indeed it did > but rarely based on the data collected thus far. > > Why look at this marker with-in M222? Well, I did a cursory look in Y > search and other projects, and it seems the majority with-in R1b who > carry this value also fall in M222 either SNP or unambiguous. > > 2ndly this marker appears to mutate up rather than down, based on as > assumptive look at what few R1b haplotype samples there are published > for human remains dug up during archeological investigations. 389-2 > appears by that same look to mutate down. > > Any comment and/or interest in pursuing this line of inquiry??? Susan > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi, Bob, I think that it would be a good look no matter what the particular OM markers are, and I would be willing to look in collaboration with other even if their OM marker values are not the same as the particular ones I'm really interested in. I know that some have investigated this some with some of their matches GD matches, but I don't know how many have scoured beyond the matches which have turned up with-in their project pages. I'm not certain either the over all consensus on potential value as I think some believe the randomness among mutations is so dicey, but that may be an educated assumption rather than reality if we are looking with in the same clade. Susan On 10/16/2011 2:43 PM, Bob Quinn wrote: > Thanks, Susan. I do not fit into this particular off-modal category, > but am very interested in this approach. > If anyone else has ideas about interesting R-M222 off-modal markers to > explore, please let me know. > I am 7 off-modal for 67 markers and tested + for the SNP. > > Bob Quinn > > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com <mailto:raaq@live.com> > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:22:51 -0400 > > From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > One of the off modal markers which has fascinated me is DYS 392 = 15. > > There are several with in M222. > > > > In review of the M222 project there are 5 Davidson (one w/spelling > > Davisson), 2 Clarkson,, a Backer, Byrnes, Crighton, Dougherty, > > Fergusson, McClelland, 2 McWhorer, Moore, Patterson, 2 Sizemore. 1 > > McConnaughey kit 197231 not listed in the the project page and I > believe > > there are others as well on this list. > > > > Fair mix of Irish/Scottish surnames which may or may not be indicative > > of anything. I haven't done a good look to see which other markers they > > share, but since they all are M222 there is possibly some other off > > modal markers. > > > > There is connection by marriage on paper between this McC and Davidson; > > however this connection is that one was a wife (surname Davidson) to > > McC and his sister married the wife's brother and this is probably all > > just circumstantial and not relevant, but interesting. > > > > Unlike the others with dys 392 = 15, the McC has a 28 value at 389-2 > > which could indicate a rare double mutation, and 389-2 is considered > > faster mutating than 392, thus may or may not be of any significance, > > also interesting though. > > > > DYS at 15, however might be an interesting look, since this marker > > rarely mutates; it is among the slowest to mutate of all; and in fact > > early on during the beginning of DNA testing it was considered to not > > mutate at all until the data increased and they noted that indeed it > did > > but rarely based on the data collected thus far. > > > > Why look at this marker with-in M222? Well, I did a cursory look in Y > > search and other projects, and it seems the majority with-in R1b who > > carry this value also fall in M222 either SNP or unambiguous. > > > > 2ndly this marker appears to mutate up rather than down, based on as > > assumptive look at what few R1b haplotype samples there are published > > for human remains dug up during archeological investigations. 389-2 > > appears by that same look to mutate down. > > > > Any comment and/or interest in pursuing this line of inquiry??? Susan > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thanks, Susan. I do not fit into this particular off-modal category, but am very interested in this approach.If anyone else has ideas about interesting R-M222 off-modal markers to explore, please let me know.I am 7 off-modal for 67 markers and tested + for the SNP. Bob Quinn Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:22:51 -0400 > From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > One of the off modal markers which has fascinated me is DYS 392 = 15. > There are several with in M222. > > In review of the M222 project there are 5 Davidson (one w/spelling > Davisson), 2 Clarkson,, a Backer, Byrnes, Crighton, Dougherty, > Fergusson, McClelland, 2 McWhorer, Moore, Patterson, 2 Sizemore. 1 > McConnaughey kit 197231 not listed in the the project page and I believe > there are others as well on this list. > > Fair mix of Irish/Scottish surnames which may or may not be indicative > of anything. I haven't done a good look to see which other markers they > share, but since they all are M222 there is possibly some other off > modal markers. > > There is connection by marriage on paper between this McC and Davidson; > however this connection is that one was a wife (surname Davidson) to > McC and his sister married the wife's brother and this is probably all > just circumstantial and not relevant, but interesting. > > Unlike the others with dys 392 = 15, the McC has a 28 value at 389-2 > which could indicate a rare double mutation, and 389-2 is considered > faster mutating than 392, thus may or may not be of any significance, > also interesting though. > > DYS at 15, however might be an interesting look, since this marker > rarely mutates; it is among the slowest to mutate of all; and in fact > early on during the beginning of DNA testing it was considered to not > mutate at all until the data increased and they noted that indeed it did > but rarely based on the data collected thus far. > > Why look at this marker with-in M222? Well, I did a cursory look in Y > search and other projects, and it seems the majority with-in R1b who > carry this value also fall in M222 either SNP or unambiguous. > > 2ndly this marker appears to mutate up rather than down, based on as > assumptive look at what few R1b haplotype samples there are published > for human remains dug up during archeological investigations. 389-2 > appears by that same look to mutate down. > > Any comment and/or interest in pursuing this line of inquiry??? Susan > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message