Taking a comparative look at Paul's GD distances between Irish & Scottish samples and considering Bernard's remarks could we be looking at the result of migration into Scotland to avoid being wiped out on the home turf that Bernard is suggesting? Based on my looks with in the project I've been looking at, I have a couple of groups that likely do not fit that scenario as the GD between them and the rest is excessive to 4000 years worth which could suggest a couple of other things; however, in regard to Paul's Byrnes, it very well could suggest a migration for reasons of safety...speculatively, and there by because they did survive to continue to reproduce they would evidence an older lineage. Susan

"Their GD comparisons came out as follows (numbers across top in same order as descending): 117643 Donegal 0 7 10 10 14 13 36715 Sligo 7 0 12 13 17 19 149181 Roscommon 10 12 0 12 13 17 92019 Monaghan 10 13 9 0 13 14 145320 Kildare 14 17 11 14 0 20 20413 Scotland? 13 19 17 14 20 0 All I can see in this is that the Scotland entry shows the greatest variance, and therefore may be the oldest." The above chart was a comparison of GD distances between certain members of the Byrne project, selected to represent our various NWI subclusters. Perhaps a comparison of GDs against the L21 and M222 modals (K9VGV and M5UKQ) would be of more value. They come out as follows: M222 L21 Monaghan 5 15 Roscommon 6 22 Donegal 7 21 Sligo 8 24 Scotland 11 27 Kildare 12 33 The L21 figures are slightly skewered because in several cases Ysearch was comparing 74 markers rather than the usual 67, but the order seems to be as listed. I assume this indicates that Kildare and Scotland are the oldest, while Monaghan is the youngest. Paul

[My problem with this is how do you measure diversity in STRs? Is it, as Wilson states, a matter of more different subtypes in one location? I'm not sure how that would be quantified. Is genetic distance alone a measure of diversity? What qualifies as a subtype? Something as simple as 13-25-14-11 vs. 13-25-14-10?] The classical statistical way would be mean marker variance. That's what KN uses. The main advantage of variance is that it can be shown mathematically that the expected value of the variance after G generations is EV = mG where EV=expected variance, m=mutation rate, G=number of generations. There are other measures, equally valid, though. Examples are mean pairwise GD, observed proportion on modal (the higher the proportion on modal the lower the diversity), or even mean number of matches over all pairwise comparisons. These other measures are best used in comparison with other haplogroups or sub-clades, because unlike with variance, they don't give a direct answer for an estimate of G. So we can compare M222+ with about 90% on modal over both 67 markers and 111 markers With L21+ which is a touch below 80% on modal. In the context that Wilson uses 'subtypes', I think he means 'sub-clades', or 'branches'. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 28 October 2011 00:52 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Age of M222 In a message dated 10/27/2011 5:38:05 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pabloburns@comcast.net writes: Did someone post that M222 must be relatively young for a SNP because the STR values do not show wide variance? I may be misremembering, but I made a comparison chart for the 20 predicted (by me based on STR indicators) and tested M222s in my project who have tested to 67 markers. I found a great many GDs of 18, 19, and 20 among them. As a follow-up exercise, I made a smaller chart to compare five NWI members who live in different areas of Ireland and whose known ancestors were from the same area. I added one USA resident whose EKA cannot be traced to Scotland, but he was called "that canny Scot" by no less than George Washington whom he bested in a land sale. "Kildare" and "Scotland" are confirmed M222. Their GD comparisons came out as follows (numbers across top in same order as descending): 117643 Donegal 0 7 10 10 14 13 36715 Sligo 7 0 12 13 17 19 149181 Roscommon 10 12 0 12 13 17 92019 Monaghan 10 13 9 0 13 14 145320 Kildare 14 17 11 14 0 20 20413 Scotland? 13 19 17 14 20 0 All I can see in this is that the Scotland entry shows the greatest variance, and therefore may be the oldest. That's an interesting question Paul and one I've wondered about for years. I've posted this before but it's relevant to this discussion. "Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. Wilson: I think that is the case. Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we willl see that and the case will be closed." This is a short extract of the conversation between Moffat and Wilson. They're talking about diversity in STRs as a sign of an older population. Here the assumption is that M222 originated in Ireland and from there spread to Scotland. But as Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) says it's not proven yet. My problem with this is how do you measure diversity in STRs? Is it, as Wilson states, a matter of more different subtypes in one location? I'm not sure how that would be quantified. Is genetic distance alone a measure of diversity? What qualifies as a subtype? Something as simple as 13-25-14-11 vs. 13-25-14-10? One of the more interesting yet so far unexplained aspects of Bill Howard's analysis of M222 is his finding of a bi-modality within M222. I've seen the graphs. It's there. I trust his statistical wizardry even if I don't understand it myself. One idea he came up with is the bi-modality could reflect a division between descendants of Niall and of those who are pre-Niall including the Connachta. But it seems to me that if such a bi-modality is obvious statistically then it should also be evident in the STRs themselves. Yet I never really got an answer from him on that - or about which samples fell into which side of the bi-modality. The charts he made look like a two humped camel - fairly evenly divided as I recall. I recently heard from a Dutch M222 and a German M222. Somewhat earlier from a Swedish M222. Those samples are still out there and unexplained. They can't all be NPEs. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I will try to explain my question of the STR variance. Take for example a fixed territory, let’s say an idealize Gaelic Tricha cet (30 hundreds) with its thirty Baile biataig (estates or hundreds) ruled by a nominal Ri (king). (The Tricha cet would be sub-divided into a number of Tuath (equated to Gaelic parish size), each with their own Taiseach. While the rulers of Baile biataig were the lowest level of nobility, with the Baile biataig holding their Derbfine (his close male relatives i.e. of same surname).) Assuming a constant population (i.e. typical state of affairs) with equal male and female (fighting and childbirth taking their toll.) Add the tribal culture of the Gaels, where chiefs of the Tuaths would have multiple wives and plenty of sons. (Sixteenth century English observed the excess sons of Gaelic chiefs as a source of instability, too much aristocracy chasing too little land.) What is going to happen if a tribal world existing in this idealized Tricha cet. The lower orders will disappear for being on the bottom of the heap (cannon fodder, famine and lack of reproduction). The prior levels of nobility are going to be swamped by the new aristocracy being pumped out by the chiefs. What does this mean for Y-DNA, within this closed world Y-DNA from the ruling line will constantly be disenfranchising (eliminate) the lower branches from the stem and hence reduce the STR variance by removing these alternative branches of the stem. I believe this can be seen in O’Clery’s Book of Genealogies (an in the Gaelic pedigrees in general). In O’Clery out of the 300 lines under Cenel Conail, 184 lines are concern with the different branches of the O’Donnells. The rest of Cenel Conaill is covered by 116 lines (of which 64 are to do with the O’Doherty family). The O’Donnells and O’Doherty in rough number account for 83% of Cenel Conaill section, or put it another way: The descendants of Stena m Ferghusa cennfhoda m Conaill ghulban m Neill noighiallaigh take up 296 lines of the Cenel Conail section, compared to 3 lines for the descendants of Boghuine m Conaill gulban m Neill and 1 line for the descendants of Duach m Conaill gulban m Neill. The section should have really been titled descendants of Stena instead, for descendants of the many other grandsons of Conail gulban are non-existant and so is their dna. What I guess I am trying to say is that the variance in STRs is also a reflection in the variance that the population being measured underwent. Such effects as the Gaelic tribes being top heavy with newly minted aristocrats (forcing the removal of lower branches) or the effect of the sixteenth and seventeen wars of English re-conquest and modernization with their typically quoted mortality rates of 50% (compared to Scotland’s population morality of ~9% in the War of the Three Kingdoms and England much lower again). I would expect a different cultures like feudal England to reflect different levels of variance.

Bernard, many thanks...yes, that makes sense. Question: Since there seems differences in certain marker values with seemingly more variance evidenced by the Scot samples would you say that this dilemma was perhaps different between populations of the two environs? Or would the variance be for other reasons? Susan

In a message dated 10/27/2011 5:38:05 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pabloburns@comcast.net writes: Did someone post that M222 must be relatively young for a SNP because the STR values do not show wide variance? I may be misremembering, but I made a comparison chart for the 20 predicted (by me based on STR indicators) and tested M222s in my project who have tested to 67 markers. I found a great many GDs of 18, 19, and 20 among them. As a follow-up exercise, I made a smaller chart to compare five NWI members who live in different areas of Ireland and whose known ancestors were from the same area. I added one USA resident whose EKA cannot be traced to Scotland, but he was called "that canny Scot" by no less than George Washington whom he bested in a land sale. "Kildare" and "Scotland" are confirmed M222. Their GD comparisons came out as follows (numbers across top in same order as descending): 117643 Donegal 0 7 10 10 14 13 36715 Sligo 7 0 12 13 17 19 149181 Roscommon 10 12 0 12 13 17 92019 Monaghan 10 13 9 0 13 14 145320 Kildare 14 17 11 14 0 20 20413 Scotland? 13 19 17 14 20 0 All I can see in this is that the Scotland entry shows the greatest variance, and therefore may be the oldest. That's an interesting question Paul and one I've wondered about for years. I've posted this before but it's relevant to this discussion. "Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. Wilson: I think that is the case. Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we willl see that and the case will be closed." This is a short extract of the conversation between Moffat and Wilson. They're talking about diversity in STRs as a sign of an older population. Here the assumption is that M222 originated in Ireland and from there spread to Scotland. But as Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) says it's not proven yet. My problem with this is how do you measure diversity in STRs? Is it, as Wilson states, a matter of more different subtypes in one location? I'm not sure how that would be quantified. Is genetic distance alone a measure of diversity? What qualifies as a subtype? Something as simple as 13-25-14-11 vs. 13-25-14-10? One of the more interesting yet so far unexplained aspects of Bill Howard's analysis of M222 is his finding of a bi-modality within M222. I've seen the graphs. It's there. I trust his statistical wizardry even if I don't understand it myself. One idea he came up with is the bi-modality could reflect a division between descendants of Niall and of those who are pre-Niall including the Connachta. But it seems to me that if such a bi-modality is obvious statistically then it should also be evident in the STRs themselves. Yet I never really got an answer from him on that - or about which samples fell into which side of the bi-modality. The charts he made look like a two humped camel - fairly evenly divided as I recall. I recently heard from a Dutch M222 and a German M222. Somewhat earlier from a Swedish M222. Those samples are still out there and unexplained. They can't all be NPEs. John

STR variance is going to be masked by tribal culture. The further you are away from the ruling derbfine the more likely your line is going to end. The descendants of the ruling derbfine (low variance) are going to multiple and replacing lower status lines.

Paul & Bernard, First, Bernard, since I am not up on all of the language, would you explain in layman's terms this: STR variance is going to be masked by tribal culture. The further you are away from the ruling derbfine the more likely your line is going to end. The descendants of the ruling derbfine (low variance) are going to multiple and replacing lower status lines. I am inclined to go with Paul on his assessment. I just went through a lengthy exercise just on genetic distances of the M222 bank of the project I'm researching. In fact I innocently believed after a lot of analysis and time consumed that I had identified perhaps a member of that entire group who quite possibly could have been the smoking gun of connecting all descending from the one progenitor calculated about 650 CE. This result was the only result which had genetic distance between 1 & 9 while sharing some off modal values and being unambiguous with 82% of the entire group and thus seemed to tie all the smaller clusters together. Fortunately I got to several extra eyes to look at my tentative conclusion, one being this lists original founder who very kindly looked at the data for me and educated me a tad for which I am very grateful and thankful. The one draw back to my assessment is that the result of the "tie them all" was too close to the modal in signature and thus the commonality likely was due to that despite the off modal matches rather than them all descending from either 1 CP or a few very closely related CP. Had that result been say at 10 away from the modal rather than 1--2 and still maintained connections to the rest, then, quite possibly the assessment may have held up. The point in short is that genetic distance from the modal very well may be an indicator the age of the lineages. The grater the diversity and genetic distance while maintaining sub-clave identification seems to be indicative of age. Thus one can assume that if the Scottish samples in your group (as it was explained to me) in fact indicate this diversity and distance then I'd have to agree with your assessment based on what I was told in response to the exercise I just went through. John Lochlan & Bill Howard early on when I joined this list had also tutored me on this very point, and although not forgetting, misplaced my memory as I was working through the data of the 88 I was surveying. Despite my momentary embarrassment for doing so, the education I got out of it is priceless. Susan

Did someone post that M222 must be relatively young for a SNP because the STR values do not show wide variance? I may be misremembering, but I made a comparison chart for the 20 predicted (by me based on STR indicators) and tested M222s in my project who have tested to 67 markers. I found a great many GDs of 18, 19, and 20 among them. As a follow-up exercise, I made a smaller chart to compare five NWI members who live in different areas of Ireland and whose known ancestors were from the same area. I added one USA resident whose EKA cannot be traced to Scotland, but he was called "that canny Scot" by no less than George Washington whom he bested in a land sale. "Kildare" and "Scotland" are confirmed M222. Their GD comparisons came out as follows (numbers across top in same order as descending): 117643 Donegal 0 7 10 10 14 13 36715 Sligo 7 0 12 13 17 19 149181 Roscommon 10 12 0 12 13 17 92019 Monaghan 10 13 9 0 13 14 145320 Kildare 14 17 11 14 0 20 20413 Scotland? 13 19 17 14 20 0 All I can see in this is that the Scotland entry shows the greatest variance, and therefore may be the oldest. Paul

Thanks for that information Bernard. I wonder if theres more information on this O'Lane's Reg't? I've found references of the "O'Lainidh" (O'Lane O'Laney)  being chiefs of Cenel Moain and also "O'Luinidh" or  "O'Luinigh" (O'Looney O'Lunney). I guess its very possible they all could have been the same family, and the way the name was transcribed over the centuries  by different monks etc. led to the confusion of the surname. So far I've found these O'Lane's listed in the 1609 Pardon list from Sir Cahir O'Dogherty's ill fated rebellion... Donnell O'Lane Cale O'Lane Murtagh O'Lane Hugh O'Lane Henrie Leine Edward Leyne John O'Loune Terloe Duff O'Lane 1641 Rebellion O'Lane's Regt 1659 John O'Line Baptized Register of Derry Cathedral Church of Ireland The 1665 Donegal Hearth Rolls Bryan O'Lane --Innishowen Donaghy Bane O'Lane ---Moyle Daniel O'Lane ---Lacken William O'Luen--Killbarren Owen Boy O'Lehin--Glencolumkille The two OLunney DNA samples I've seen from Fermanagh were L-21 and not M-222.  I also found this: http://www.libraryireland.com/AnglicisedSurnames/Lane.php http://www.libraryireland.com/names/ol/o-liathain.php http://www.libraryireland.com/AnglicisedSurnames/Lyons-Lines-Lyne.php Thanks Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernard Morgan" <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> To: "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 4:26:41 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] M-222 and Ui Fiachrach For O'Lanes from Donegal/Derry you might want to look at O'Luinigh former lords of Cenel Moen (Gillacrist O'LUINIGH, Lord of Cinel Moen,' AD 1090), who originate in the barony of Raphoe, Co. Donegal. The O'Luinigh are said to have been push across the the River Foyle into the barony of Strabane and I beleive are the source of the O'Lane regiment in the War of the Three Kingdoms (below). For I believe Turlough Mac Art Oge (below) O'Neill's is the grandson of Turlogh Luineach, said to be named for his hosterage amongst the O'Luinigh where he later built his castle. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mhuintirluinigh/   "guarded with some five troops of horse of Colonel Philip Mac Toul's [O'Neill] regiment, Turlough Mac Art Oge's [O'Neill] regiment, and general-major O'Lane's regiment " http://books.google.com/books?id=4hFZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA232&lpg=PA232&dq=%22o'lane's+regiment&source=bl&ots=DPR3yRMX7U&sig=o1AyH0TnIWrXqCZctGZ20vdgQ_Q&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22o'lane's%20regiment&f=false                                                  R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For O'Lanes from Donegal/Derry you might want to look at O'Luinigh former lords of Cenel Moen (Gillacrist O'LUINIGH, Lord of Cinel Moen,' AD 1090), who originate in the barony of Raphoe, Co. Donegal. The O'Luinigh are said to have been push across the the River Foyle into the barony of Strabane and I beleive are the source of the O'Lane regiment in the War of the Three Kingdoms (below). For I believe Turlough Mac Art Oge (below) O'Neill's is the grandson of Turlogh Luineach, said to be named for his hosterage amongst the O'Luinigh where he later built his castle. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mhuintirluinigh/ "guarded with some five troops of horse of Colonel Philip Mac Toul's [O'Neill] regiment, Turlough Mac Art Oge's [O'Neill] regiment, and general-major O'Lane's regiment " http://books.google.com/books?id=4hFZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA232&lpg=PA232&dq=%22o'lane's+regiment&source=bl&ots=DPR3yRMX7U&sig=o1AyH0TnIWrXqCZctGZ20vdgQ_Q&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22o'lane's%20regiment&f=false

Hello, I've been doing some research on my line of O'Liathain's (Lane/Lawn/Lyon) from Donegal and just wanted to get some opinions on what I've found.  My surname is Lane, and my ancestor, according to family lore, left Ireland for Virginia from the port of Derry circa 1740. I've found that some of the Irish Lane/Lawn/Lyon's from Donegal/Derry, which is where my ancestor was from, are believed to be descended from the O'Liathain's, a sept of the Ui Fiachrach Muaide originally from north Connacht. These O'Liathains were in very early times seated in the parish of Dromard in County Sligo. According to O'Clery it seems that a branch of these O'Liathians, along with a branch of O' Dubhda (O'Dowd/O'Duddy) moved north and settled in the Kingdom of Tirconnell. The Ui Fiachrach claimed to be descendants of Fiachra, son of Eochaidh Muighmheadhoin, King of Ireland in the 4th century. Fiachra was a brother of Niall of the Nine Hostages and father of the celebrated King Dahy, the last pagan monarch of Ireland. The Ui Fiachrach were divided into two branches, viz: Ui Fiachrach Muaide and Ui Fiachrach Aidhne. My question is since these O'Liathains and O'Dubhda's of the Ui Fiachrach claim to be of descent from Niall's half brother Fiachra, and since both lines have tested M-222, could this possibly explain my early Lane ancestory? All the best, Chris Lane

Me too. Thanks. Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:13:20 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DF23 test now available at FTDNA > > Have you personally examined the variation in M222+ STR's? If so, I'd be > interested in what you found. > > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Forrest > Sent: 25 October 2011 17:26 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DF23 test now available at FTDNA > > As a follow-up to my last post, I just noticed that some STR results for an > anonymous DF23+ M222- individual (from Utah) have been released. See this > thread: http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10088.0 > > I should say that because DF23 is upstream of M222, we would expect that the > DF23+ population could have at least as much variation as the M222+ > population show. > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Have you personally examined the variation in M222+ STR's? If so, I'd be interested in what you found. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Forrest Sent: 25 October 2011 17:26 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DF23 test now available at FTDNA As a follow-up to my last post, I just noticed that some STR results for an anonymous DF23+ M222- individual (from Utah) have been released. See this thread: http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10088.0 I should say that because DF23 is upstream of M222, we would expect that the DF23+ population could have at least as much variation as the M222+ population show.

DF23 appeared on the Advanced Orders page today. I have ordered it for two in my Northwest Irish group--one who lives in Roscommon, and the other who lives in the USA but traces to Sligo. Neither has SNP tested. Paul

Steve, Many thanks for posting this. I take it there isn't an formal research/testing group for DF23 yet? I would be interested to see what surnames are coming up in the DF23+ M222- group. Iain ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:13:46 -0400 > From: stephen.forrest@gmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] DF23 test now available at FTDNA > > Hi all, > > I've already posted this on DNA Forums and the L21 list but I thought it > would be worth mentioning here. It appears DF23 is now available for > ordering from the Order Advanced Tests menu. > > To be clear for anyone not following the discussion up to this point, DF23 > is known to be upstream of M222, so if you have already tested positive for > M222 there is no point in ordering a DF23 test. > > However if you are a close match to the North-West Irish signature but have > tested negative for M222, you may well wish to test for DF23 as it will > provide further evidence for your close relationship with the M222+ clade > and may help clarify the origins and early history of M222. > > For instructions on how to order DF23, follow the instructions in this post > (substituting DF23 for Z253): > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/5129. > > Best, > > Steve > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

As a follow-up to my last post, I just noticed that some STR results for an anonymous DF23+ M222- individual (from Utah) have been released. See this thread: http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10088.0 I should say that because DF23 is upstream of M222, we would expect that the DF23+ population could have at least as much variation as the M222+ population show. So if you are M222- but not a close match to this particular STR profile, don't necessarily take it as evidence you won't turn up positive for DF23. best, Steve

Paul, I absolutely agree. And I think in regard to NPE we should consider in addition to recent understandings of what is implied but also with in the context of times previous. The list has devoted a considerable amount of time reviewing quasi and/or suspected historically connected surnames many if not most different to one another yet seemingly tied by clan, sept, and/or geographic area. With very close matches suggesting a relatedness between those of different surnames with in 1--2--3/67 genetic distances, one has to suspect NPE due to the obvious and/or adoption. For the same say over 300--400 years ago added to the list of possibilities (added to the obvious) I believe are name changes either forced or by choice, and or phonetic spellings, Anglicization, etc. Beyond that added to the list surname usage choices. I also believe, however in view of Celtic societies we also must consider their cultural practices and understand that their concepts of intimacies were likely quite different than ours today (our bias mostly due to Christian conversion). If one were to remember that, we also may understand better not only the spread of M222 (since that is the sub-clave we are mostly concerned with on this list) but also explain some of the surname issues themselves up to the point where intimacies out side the bounds of Christian marriage were forbidden by the church. Even at that, many of the more remote and protected Celtic populations already converted continued to practice their cultural heritages if you will up until fidelity perse was enforced and acts otherwise were kept in the closet. Susan

Hi Iain, The DF23 test just became available (yesterday or today), so no test results are yet available. The DF23 SNP was discovered in early 2011 but there were apparently some technical issues with primers which prevented the test from being available for quite a while. It has been confirmed that DF23 is upstream of M222 and I seem to recall from the discussion on DNA Forums that DF23+ M222- samples were known, but they are all anonymous. I'm sure we won't have to wait too long for results and hopefully they'll show us something interesting. Steve

Ordered for L21+ M222- from Bretagne (for many centuries) in my project. Should be interesting. Regards, Steve > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:14:16 +0000 > From: pabloburns@comcast.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Testing DF23 > > DF23 appeared on the Advanced Orders page today. I have ordered it for two in my Northwest Irish group--one who lives in Roscommon, and the other who lives in the USA but traces to Sligo. Neither has SNP tested. > Paul > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message