1. _Celts: Insular Celts_ (http://www.lycos.com/info/celts--insular-celts.html) www.lycos.com/info/celts--insular-celts.html It is believed that the Celts originated in the Steppes, migrating south c. 1500 BC. T hey made their way southwest to Iberia, and expanded north into the British ... 2. _The Celts_ (http://www.visitrannoch.com/celts.htm) www.visitrannoch.com/celts.htm It is believed that the Celts originated in the Steppes, migrating south c. 1500 BC. They made their way southwest to Iberia, and expanded north into the ... 3. _Geographic spread and ethnic origins of European haplogroups ..._ (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml) www.eupedia.com › _Europe Guide Top_ (http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.eupedia.com/europe/&rct=j&sa=X&ei=ETy0TubUDcjY2gWi8szMDQ&ved=0CDEQ6QUoAD AD&q=Celts+originated+in+the+Steppes,+migrating+south+c.+1500&usg=AFQjCNHnPb LRUQrm3_-GAaDwgqWc-97Wtw) › _Genetics_ (http://www.google.com/url?url=htt p://www.eupedia.com/genetics/&rct=j&sa=X&ei=ETy0TubUDcjY2gWi8szMDQ&ved=0CDIQ6Q UoATAD&q=Celts+originated+in+the+Steppes,+migrating+south+c.+1500&usg=AFQjCN Es70mTqa7yB4N3YRoF1ceFb0NPfw) - _Block all www.eupedia.com results_ (http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNY_enUS421&gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Celts+originated+in+the+Steppe s,+migrating+south+c.+1500#) They always go by pairs, A with T, and G with C. Such pairs are called "base pairs". ....Does that mean that Indo-European languages originated in the steppes with R1a ...Its style is reminiscent of the long Celtic swords, though less elaborated. ... A backmigration from the North Caucasus to northern Anatolia is very likely in ...

In reply to: * [R-M222] DNA Forums <http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2011-11/1320377241> by /Lochlan/ (Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:27:21 -0400 (EDT)) John says: I just thought people in this forum would be interested to see there are quite a few different opinions out there on where M222 originated. Not all follow the NW Ireland dogma of the geneticists. We've talked about a lot them in this forum. From a member of our FTDNA McKee Group: I had a look at the latest postings (ie. more variance in Scottish M222+ persons therefore perhaps older or more direct tie to the initial M222 man) with the further suggestion that M222 migrated from Ireland to Scotland relatively early on to explain this finding.It is perhaps time to remind myself again that the Macaoidh legend had 2 brothers being forced from northern Ireland to northern Scotland after an unsuccessful power struggle. This would be entirely consistent with the data as I understand them. And, a further piece of support for the notion that the legends are not entirely made up aggrandizing fictions. Here is the important part:"Descended from the Pictish Royal House of MacEth, the progenitor of the clan is Iye (MacEth), grandson of Earl of Ross, raised to Chiefship in 1250. Iye in Gaelic is AOIDH, meaning "fire" and anglicized as "ay" or "y" and pronounced"eye" - hence Mackay is properly pronounced "mhuc eye"not "mah kaay". His people were originally from Ireland, following two brothers deported after battle loss for kingship in 335 A.D. These Moray men were dispersed principally north to Strathnaver Region by order of King Malcolm IV in 1160 who defeated Malcolm MacEth, Earl of Ross whose daughter Gormalth married the Norse Harold, Earl of Caithness. Argyll Mackays, linked with House of Strachnaver, fledsouth. Similarly, McGhies of Galloway. Mackays became famous for strength, courage and skill in soldiering and were involved in endless Clan battles against Keiths, Rosses, Gunns, Sinclairs, Sutherlands and others, and wars abroad. Donald, son of Iye Mor, married the daughter of Iye, son of Neil of Gilgha of Kintyre and supported Bruce at Bannockburn in 1314. In 1329, Robert the Bruce gave lands in Kintyre to Gilchrist McCay for service of archers. Mackies of Largs received a land charter from Bruce in Kirkcudbright." ------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been locked out of DNA-Forums for some time; just got back in with a new email address and password today. There's a lot of chatter in the forums about M222 including some in the L21 project including the admin. who think M222 originated in Scotland. In one post he cites the greater diversity found in SW Scotland. David Wilson also posted a few times. Here's part of one. "In the earliest days I thought that M222, because of its distinctive Y-STRs, might have been a really ancient line that got into Ireland soon after the last retreat of the ice. When the L21 SNP was recognized and proved to be earlier while definitely younger in absolute time, that theory was buried at the crossroads with a stake through its heart. The next question then became whether the much younger M222 group originated in Ireland. I have never believed that it had to originate there, but it obviously flourished there once it appeared. I still think it possible that the SNP originated first in the area north of where Hadrian would build his wall." Here's another one by someone who used to post frequently on the GEN-DNA list. "Its a shame we know the name of the M222 guy but not the DF23* guy. The M222 guy fits into the typical Connachta M222 clan origin. So no surprise there. Its the other guy whose surname would be interesting to know. My understanding from discussions of pre-M222 STR guys (who I would guess are good condidates for DF23*) are not from the Connaught/NW Ulster origins and they tend more to be from the SW Scottish border area with the only Irish examples being located in Leinster. Clearly the most likely origin point for M222 is where both pre-M222 and M222 are found and as far as I know that is SW Scotland, not NW Ireland. This could be wrong but that is the way it seemed when a list of pre-M222 was presented here some time ago. My hunch has long been that the shared connection between SW Scotland, NW Ireland and perhaps Leinster is the Damnoni/Dumnoni/Fir Domnainn one. I think there are hints that they by the early centuries AD if not well before were some kind of major power on the seas and with powerbases along the coasts with the name and similar names appearing in SW England, Strathclyde, Leinster and NW Connaught etc. " I just thought people in this forum would be interested to see there are quite a few different opinions out there on where M222 originated. Not all follow the NW Ireland dogma of the geneticists. We've talked about a lot them in this forum. John

There was a subsequent post on DNA Forums by Mike in which he paraphrased a message he'd got from Max Blankfeld of FTDNA. Mr. Blankfeld stated that a mistake had been made in his test and he was actually M222+ after all, and they are giving him refunds for all the unnecessary SNP tests since his initial deep clade test. A few people have since pointed out that there still several M222- guys left who are close to the North-West Irish modal and who would be good candidates for DF23 testing. Steve On 3 November 2011 21:13, <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/2/2011 9:50:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: > > Hi Mike > > You are now shown to be M222+ at > > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?section=ysnp > > Did you re-test? > > Sandy > > Did anyone hear more about this? The admin of the L21 project had a group > he called pre M222 of which the leading sample was Hannan. He was > formerly listed as M222- and appears in the M222- section of the M222 > project but > now shows positive for DF23 and M222. In looking at the L21 project I see > a number of DF23 tests in which all testees except Hannan are DFY23-. > > The Hannan sample has been a mystery to all since the STRs perfectly > match the M222 pattern. > > Are there any other positive DF23 results out there? > > We now have three in the M222 project with tests ordered for DF23. > Patterson, O'Byrne and McNeely. > > John

In a message dated 11/2/2011 9:50:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Hi Mike You are now shown to be M222+ at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?section=ysnp Did you re-test? Sandy Did anyone hear more about this? The admin of the L21 project had a group he called pre M222 of which the leading sample was Hannan. He was formerly listed as M222- and appears in the M222- section of the M222 project but now shows positive for DF23 and M222. In looking at the L21 project I see a number of DF23 tests in which all testees except Hannan are DFY23-. The Hannan sample has been a mystery to all since the STRs perfectly match the M222 pattern. Are there any other positive DF23 results out there? We now have three in the M222 project with tests ordered for DF23. Patterson, O'Byrne and McNeely. John

Billy, M222 is a sub-clade of R1b1a2 haplogroup. There is a SNP tested to confirm this identification; however, the haplotype signature associated with this sub-clade are rather straight forward and identifiable for most, and thus if the marker values fall with-in what they call an unambiguous set of allele values more often than not the unambiguous with out a SNP will also be considered as M222. This information is stored on the Y chromosome, thus no, it would not come via any female contribution to the equation as the Y chromosome inheritance is sex specific and passed from biological fathers to sons down through the generations rather intact with the exception of random generational mutations that occur among the alleles at different mutation rates depending on the particular locus. There are many using surnames considered as Irish and Scottish who are or considered M222. The reason for this is due to surname choice, phonetic spellings, and NPE's inclusive of name changes. Particularly among the Irish it seems that many of the surnames also evolved from septs and groups associated with the Uii Neil dynasty, and the SNP itself likely evolved previous to the Nial of the Nine Hostages name sake. There is lots of information at this site provided by John. http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7 <http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/> Susan

Hi Billy I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by the listed M222 56598I. Can you elaborate? (I'm not really that knowledgable about SNP's but I'm interested in them). Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Uncle Billy Dunbar Sent: 03 November 2011 05:14 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Pre-M222 Hello Sandy, have a question ? I seen Dunbar on the listed M222 56598I was notified that I am among the M222 group, is this all the numbers in the M222? Also I see Flynn's listed, my Grandmothers mother was a Flynn would the M222 come from her family line? Im not sure what the M222 tell's me? Thanks; William Taylor (Billy) Dunbar 3rd -----Original Message----- From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 9:50 am Subject: Re: [R-M222] Pre-M222 Hi Mike You are now shown to be M222+ at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?section=ysnp Did you re-test? Sandy -----Original Message----- rom: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of hannan23@tvcconnect.net ent: 23 July 2011 20:40 o: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com ubject: [R-M222] Pre-M222 Hello John and all my M222+ cousins, I have recently tested at FTDNA and am L513- which is a good sign for me to e considered Pre-M222 by my L21+ brothers. As soon as the DF23 SNP test is vailable, I will order it and post the results. With the DF23 test vailable, we should then know how many Pre-M222's are around. I contacted the Hannan DNA site and asked the Admin to contact the other six 222 look alikes to Deep Clade test but five would not and the sixth has hanged e-mail address and could not be reached. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

._http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre) The earliest recorded clan chiefs do not emerge until the 17th century. The earliest chief is Duncan, who married Mary, daughter of Patrick Campbell of Barcaldine. He died in 1695 and is buried at _Ardchattan Priory_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardchattan_Priory) ._[17]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-19) >From this era comes a traditional account that the home of the MacIntyre chief was saved by the clan’s ties to the MacDonalds. At the time of the _civil war_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_civil_war) in Scotland the forces of _James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Graham,_1st_Marquess_of_Montrose) , had sacked _Inveraray_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inveraray) and marched north to the area of Glen Noe. As a tenant of the Campbells, the chief was deemed an opponent of the _Royalist_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier) faction, which Montrose served. The chief, expecting no mercy, fled. As part of their campaign, the Royalist troops were under orders to destroy all houses in the neighborhood and began to set fire to the chief's house. The commander of Montrose’s men, Sir Alexander MacDonald,_[Note 4]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-22) extinguished the blaze before it became widespread and sent word to the chief that his property had been spared in recognition of the services the clan’s founder had performed in contriving the marriage of Somerled, ancestor of the MacDonalds to Ragnhilda half a millennium earlier._[20]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-23) ,_[Note 5]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-25) Many MacIntyres subsequently joined MacDonald's army including the chief's piper. The chief, however, was with _Campbell of Argyll_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archibald_Campbell,_1st_Marquess_of_Argyll) at the _battle of Inverlochy_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Inverlochy_(1645)) in February 1645 when the Campbells were surprised by Montrose's forces and routed._[22]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-26) It is said that the MacIntyre chief at the time of the _Jacobite rising_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_rising) of 1745, James (born c. 1727), would have joined the clans rallying to Prince _Charles Edward Stuart_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Edward_Stuart) but was dissuaded from doing so by his wife, who was a Campbell, and his neighbors. His loyalties to the Campbells were further deepened by the fact that his legal studies had been sponsored by the _Campbell Earl of Breadalbane_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell,_2nd_Earl_of_Breadalbane_and_Holland) ._[23]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-27) Nonetheless, many MacIntyres were in the clan regiment of _Stewart of Appin_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Stewart_of_Appin) in the campaign of 1745–46, but they did not serve as an independent body._[24]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-28) At some unknown date the symbolic snowball and calf tokens owed to the Campbells were commuted to payment of money rent which increased over the years. In 1806, the chief was forced to relinquish the tenancy of Glen Noe due to inability to meet the payments._[25]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-29) The chief and his family emigrated to the United States, where the family continues to reside. Although the identities of the chiefs were always known to interested clan members,_[26]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-30) the chiefship of the clan was not officially recognized by Scottish authorities until 1991, when the coat of arms of James Wallace MacIntyre of Glenoe was confirmed by the Lord Lyon, King of Arms._[27]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-31) The current chief of the clan is Donald Russell MacIntyre of Glenoe._[28]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-32) The MacIntyre chiefs hold membership in the _Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_Council_of_Scottish_Chiefs) ._[29]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#cite_note-33) _RootsWeb: ASHLEY-L [ASHLEY] Ui Neill Clan of ancient Ireland_ (http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/ASHLEY/2008-10/1224925850) newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/ASHLEY/2008-10/1224925850 - _Block all newsarch.rootsweb.com results_ (http://www.google.com/#) Oct 25, 2008 – This is a references I found about Ashley's being descended from powerful clan chieftains, extraordinary political leaders..

Hello Sandy, have a question ? I seen Dunbar on the listed M222 56598I was notified that I am among the M222 group, is this all the numbers in the M222? Also I see Flynn's listed, my Grandmothers mother was a Flynn would the M222 come from her family line? Im not sure what the M222 tell's me? Thanks; William Taylor (Billy) Dunbar 3rd -----Original Message----- From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 9:50 am Subject: Re: [R-M222] Pre-M222 Hi Mike You are now shown to be M222+ at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?section=ysnp Did you re-test? Sandy -----Original Message----- rom: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of hannan23@tvcconnect.net ent: 23 July 2011 20:40 o: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com ubject: [R-M222] Pre-M222 Hello John and all my M222+ cousins, I have recently tested at FTDNA and am L513- which is a good sign for me to e considered Pre-M222 by my L21+ brothers. As soon as the DF23 SNP test is vailable, I will order it and post the results. With the DF23 test vailable, we should then know how many Pre-M222's are around. I contacted the Hannan DNA site and asked the Admin to contact the other six 222 look alikes to Deep Clade test but five would not and the sixth has hanged e-mail address and could not be reached. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Hi Mike You are now shown to be M222+ at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?section=ysnp Did you re-test? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of mhannan23@tvcconnect.net Sent: 23 July 2011 20:40 To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Pre-M222 Hello John and all my M222+ cousins, I have recently tested at FTDNA and am L513- which is a good sign for me to be considered Pre-M222 by my L21+ brothers. As soon as the DF23 SNP test is available, I will order it and post the results. With the DF23 test available, we should then know how many Pre-M222's are around. I contacted the Hannan DNA site and asked the Admin to contact the other six M222 look alikes to Deep Clade test but five would not and the sixth has changed e-mail address and could not be reached.

Sandy, You have two third cousins R1b1a2 M222 unambiguous but not SNP. One born 1939 & the other born 1955 -- 16 years apart. At 37 markers they are identical to one another; however 8 off the M222 modal according to McGee; and 3 off the closest match of two others with-in the surname and Both of these have been SNP confirmed M222+ The most recent common ancestor of the *cousins* was a great grandfather who was born in *1842* (97 years previous to one & 113 years previous to the other) The MRCA's father was born in *1805* the 1805 ancestor's father was born in *1754* and the 1754 ancestor's father was born ca *1725* (this is the oldest known ancestor) (214 years previous to one & 230 years previous to the other) The markers represented off modal at 37 are: 385 b @ +1 439 @ -1 389-1 @ -1 392 @ +1 389-2 @ -1 459a @ +1 464B @ -1 576 @ +1 CDYa @ +1 CDYb @ +2 That appears to be 10 to me rather than the 8 that McGee states The markers off from the two with in the surname are: 385-b @ +1 392 @ +1 CDY-b @ +1 In consideration of the current Chandler mutation rates Question 1: how many years elapsed since the time of the most recent (yet distant) ON MODAL common ancestor Question 2: approximate time frame that DYS 392 mutated considering it's mutation rate and the fact that it was at it's current value in *1842* Question 3: Time to the MCRA between the cousins and the other two with in the surname.

Hi Paul [One of the things that puzzles me though; when FTDNA (I use their calculator for GDs) says two men are 67/20, how can we assume that each is 10 from the MRCA? Perhaps one is 8 and the other 12, or doesn't it matter?] Yes, it could easily be 8 & 12 (or 12 & 8) and other combinations that sum to 20. Intuitively, I think 11 & 9 or 9 & 11 are the most likely. For approximate calculations though, assuming 10 & 10 is probably not far out, although there is of course the possibility of reverse mutations having taken place. So two lines at a gd of 20 in today's times could easily both have had 11 mutations, in the one case with no reverse mutations and the other line with one reverse mutation, the latter giving the appearance of having had only 9 mutations. Paper trails are king, of course. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net Sent: 31 October 2011 09:39 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Age of M222 Sandy, Thanks for the explanation. It does help, and your 134 year figure does seem more appropriate that 167 years for estimating the MRCA of my Sligo cousin and me. I did post the same question on another forum, and I received the following two answers from the man whom I gather came up with the 167 year figure: 1. "When counting GD between two men's to calculate a TMRCA requires the below formula which computes the average GD between two men. @ 67 markers - 7.5 transmissions (be) times 25 years per generation equals 167.5 years per mutation. (@ 30 = 225 yrs per mut) The TMRCA calculation would be: Using 67 markers for comparison between two men that have GD=20 between them: TMRCA=((mutations x be's) / 2 ) x YearsPerGen TMRCA=((20 x 7.5)/2)x25 = 1,875 years" 2. "The 167.5 years is an average I calculated using 0.2% (0.02) mutation rate which is 500 transmissions (birth events) per mutation. So 7.5be designed for 67 markers. And, I would use your known average number of years per generation instead of the default 25 or 30 years." I would suggest using McGee's YDNA utility with different mutation rate options were the TMRCA calculations use the average mutation rate for all the markers common between the pair of haplotypes being compared. McGee's 'Constant Rate' Default is 0.0024 which is about 416.6 transmission per mutation which is a tad bit faster at 67 marker 6.2be." I haven't tried using the McGee calculator (I don't understand MacDonald's charts), so that will be my next effort at the esoteric. One of the things that puzzles me though; when FTDNA (I use their calculator for GDs) says two men are 67/20, how can we assume that each is 10 from the MRCA? Perhaps one is 8 and the other 12, or doesn't it matter? Paul R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sandy, Thanks for the explanation. It does help, and your 134 year figure does seem more appropriate that 167 years for estimating the MRCA of my Sligo cousin and me. I did post the same question on another forum, and I received the following two answers from the man whom I gather came up with the 167 year figure: 1. "When counting GD between two men's to calculate a TMRCA requires the below formula which computes the average GD between two men. @ 67 markers - 7.5 transmissions (be) times 25 years per generation equals 167.5 years per mutation. (@ 30 = 225 yrs per mut) The TMRCA calculation would be: Using 67 markers for comparison between two men that have GD=20 between them: TMRCA=((mutations x be's) / 2 ) x YearsPerGen TMRCA=((20 x 7.5)/2)x25 = 1,875 years" 2. "The 167.5 years is an average I calculated using 0.2% (0.02) mutation rate which is 500 transmissions (birth events) per mutation. So 7.5be designed for 67 markers. And, I would use your known average number of years per generation instead of the default 25 or 30 years." I would suggest using McGee's YDNA utility with different mutation rate options were the TMRCA calculations use the average mutation rate for all the markers common between the pair of haplotypes being compared. McGee's 'Constant Rate' Default is 0.0024 which is about 416.6 transmission per mutation which is a tad bit faster at 67 marker 6.2be." I haven't tried using the McGee calculator (I don't understand MacDonald's charts), so that will be my next effort at the esoteric. One of the things that puzzles me though; when FTDNA (I use their calculator for GDs) says two men are 67/20, how can we assume that each is 10 from the MRCA? Perhaps one is 8 and the other 12, or doesn't it matter? Paul

Hi Paul I think I've worked out where you are going wrong. Let's suppose two people B and C have a nearest common ancestor A. A must have had two or more sons. Let's say B is a descendant of one of the sons and C is the descendant of a different son. Time passes. Let's say after G generations, 10 mutations have occurred in each line. If all 10 mutations are different, B and G will have a GD of 20 (ignoring reverse mutations). The time estimate back to the common ancestor is not 20 x 167 = 3340 years, but 10 x 167 = 1670 years. And if we then use the 134 years implied by Chandler's estimated mutation rates instead of 167, we get 10 x 134 =1340 years. You may find it useful to go to http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/tmrca.htm Here it is explained that "Note that the number of transmission events is essentially twice the number of generations back to the MRCA". So 20 x 167 (or 20 x 134) is approximately equal to 2G, not to G. Hope this helps. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net Sent: 29 October 2011 18:19 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Age of M222 Sandy (or anyone), Since I left university 55 years ago, the math portion of my brain mas atrophied from lack of use to where I now have trouble calculating the tip for restaurant service. Consequently, I was relieved when some kind soul posted that the average for 67-marker mutations is 167 years. I am sure that the real gurus were horrified, but I see on other forums that some continue to use this mutation figure in comparisons. That might be fairly close for my Sligo cousin and me. We are at a GD of 4, which would place the MRCA at 668 ybp. But, using another example, my cousin is at a GD of 20 from from our suspected Scot (20413). At 167 years per mutation the time to their MRCA would be 3340ybp. If both are M222, then either M222 was around well back in the BC period, or they mutated separately. Am I figuring this all wrong, or is using the 167 years per mutation approach completely out of the question? Paul R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Paul I don't think 167 years is way out. John Chandler's 67-marker mutation rates sum to .2243 That implies on average, a mutation every 1/.2243 = 4.46 generations, perhaps every 30 x 4.46 = 134 years if you assume 30 years per generation. So 167 years is probably stretching it a little, but it's not out of the ball-park. If I understand you correctly, you have a Sligo cousin at a GD of 4 over 67 markers. However, this cousin is at a GD of 20 from a third person whose suspected relationship with you and your Sligo cousin is unclear to me. Perhaps you could elaborate? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net Sent: 29 October 2011 18:19 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Age of M222 Sandy (or anyone), Since I left university 55 years ago, the math portion of my brain mas atrophied from lack of use to where I now have trouble calculating the tip for restaurant service. Consequently, I was relieved when some kind soul posted that the average for 67-marker mutations is 167 years. I am sure that the real gurus were horrified, but I see on other forums that some continue to use this mutation figure in comparisons. That might be fairly close for my Sligo cousin and me. We are at a GD of 4, which would place the MRCA at 668 ybp. But, using another example, my cousin is at a GD of 20 from from our suspected Scot (20413). At 167 years per mutation the time to their MRCA would be 3340ybp. If both are M222, then either M222 was around well back in the BC period, or they mutated separately. Am I figuring this all wrong, or is using the 167 years per mutation approach completely out of the question? Paul R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sandy (or anyone), Since I left university 55 years ago, the math portion of my brain mas atrophied from lack of use to where I now have trouble calculating the tip for restaurant service. Consequently, I was relieved when some kind soul posted that the average for 67-marker mutations is 167 years. I am sure that the real gurus were horrified, but I see on other forums that some continue to use this mutation figure in comparisons. That might be fairly close for my Sligo cousin and me. We are at a GD of 4, which would place the MRCA at 668 ybp. But, using another example, my cousin is at a GD of 20 from from our suspected Scot (20413). At 167 years per mutation the time to their MRCA would be 3340ybp. If both are M222, then either M222 was around well back in the BC period, or they mutated separately. Am I figuring this all wrong, or is using the 167 years per mutation approach completely out of the question? Paul

I hope I have succeeded in not including everything in the thread in this post. I'm copying a bit below: *In a message dated 10/27/2011 5:38:05 A.M. Central Daylight Time,* *pabloburns@comcast.net writes:* * * *Did someone post that M222 must be relatively young for a SNP because the* *STR values do not show wide variance? I may be misremembering, but I made a* * comparison chart for the 20 predicted (by me based on STR indicators) and* *tested M222s in my project who have tested to 67 markers. I found a great* *many GDs of 18, 19, and 20 among them.* *...* and *On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 6:52 PM, <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote:* *This is a short extract of the conversation between Moffat and Wilson.* *They're talking about diversity in STRs as a sign of an older population. * *Here the assumption is that M222 originated in Ireland and from there spread* *to Scotland. But as Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) says it's not proven yet. * * * *My problem with this is how do you measure diversity in STRs? Is it, as* *Wilson states, a matter of more different subtypes in one location? I'm not* *sure how that would be quantified. Is genetic distance alone a measure* *of diversity? What qualifies as a subtype? Something as simple as* *13-25-14-11 vs. 13-25-14-10?* *...* I've been thinking about this lately because of the recent discussions of family mutations as well as the fact that in one of the charts available in the files of the R-L21+ Yahoo Group, my family representative (kit 161531) is listed as McCombs 461=12, 481<=23. The other McCombs in the R-M222 Haplogroup (kit 175471) might similarly be listed as McCombs 391=10, 461=12, 481<=23, as would his cousin (kit 182872). They'd be put in a separate group from kit 161531 even though the GD for 161531 and 175471 @ 67 is only 2. There used to be a chart with a link posted in the R-M222 Haplogroup Project pages that was a star of sorts - lines radiating outward. On this chart there were three markers that were given special significance and haplotypes with a particular value for those markers were highlighted in different colors. I can no longer find that chart and I can only recall two of the markers, DYS391 = 10 and DYS460 = 12. I don’t believe the 3rd mutation occurred in any of our R-M222 McComb(s). However, there is one McComb (kit 196033) whose DYS460 is the modal 11, rather than the 12 the other 3 McComb(s) have, so he'd probably be put into a 3rd group. Comparing 161531 to 196033 the GD is 2, and comparing 175471 to 196033 the GD is 4. The only way these kits would end up in the same group, is if they were first put into a group with other haplotypes that have the DYS481=22. It's an unusual back mutation (?) and in the 4th panel, so it's not something that anyone not connected to this particular group is likely to notice. Since most comparisons are made with 37 markers rather than 67, DYS481 isn't usually considered, but it defines a group that includes the East Lothian Duncan family, a segment of Group 01 McKee family, most of the M222 Group 8 Walkers, the 4 McComb(s) above, and a number of others. I've collected 27 haplotypes from individuals on the match list of 161531 (and the public Y-charts of his matches' projects) who have 22 at 481. Only 12 of them are in the R-M222 Haplogroup Project, but they're easy to spot by the purple highlighting of DYS481 in the colorized chart. (Unfortunately, no one with the surname Walker is among the 12 in the haplogroup project.) Few of these individuals have 111 marker results, but those who do still show up on each other's match lists at that level and have at least one more off-modal marker in common, DYS461=13. Only 2 of the 27 in my spreadsheet have 391=10 and they both descend from David McCombs b. 1793 in Abbeville SC, however 21 of the 27 have 460=12. Of the other 6 individuals, one (Walker) has 460=13, and 5 have 460=11 (McKie, Walker, McComb, Ferguson Trumble, and Burditt McKee). Neither of these markers appear to give me a way to subdivide the group; there is only one marker that does that - DYS444, also in the 4th panel and adjacent to 481. 15 of the 27 have the M222 modal 12 for DYS444, and 12 of the 27 have 13 there. The 12 haplotypes with 13 all belong to individuals named Walker, Woodruff or McComb(s), and no one with those names has 12. (There are a couple of other mutations that occur only in Woodruff and some individuals in the Walker family that could further subdivide the group.) It seems to me that there must be more groups like this one (and the others that were discussed recently) that have different signature markers and patterns of mutation within them that puts them outside the norm for R-M222. But perhaps the combined total of haplotypes from these groups is still so small that they would not affect the computations. Sharon >

Print Page - Duncan virginiasnewsletter.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic... Feb 22, 2009 – William Duncan of Perthshire, Scotland, who suffered martyrdom under Charles the Second. He was born January 7th, 1630, married Susan Haldane of Glasgow. ... the "Northern Neck" of VA after the death of their father in 1685 to 1692. Parents William Duncan 1630 – 1692. Susan Haldane 1635 – 1665 ... [PDF] Genealogical record of the Duncan family of Virginia and Kentucky ... www.clandonnachaidhdna.org/wp-content/.../Duncanstories.pdf File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View William Duncan, born in Perthshire in 1630, who is said to have been killed for ...Reverend William Duncan, outed at the Revolution, died in Scotland in 1692 ... of the wife of William I Duncan: she is now called Susan Haldane and she is said to ...... and settled 1722 1/23, on the “Northern Neck” of the colony of Virginia, the ... William H Duncan gw4.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=ottopalfenier...william...duncan William Robert Rev Duncan 1630-1692; Sarah "Susan" Haldane 1635 ... Browse using William H Duncan as Family Tree Root ...

A brief question about this. What does it mean the closer ones sample is to the  modal example? I'm a 64/67 match with modal. Does this signify anything? Chris Lane FTDNA kit# 145350 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Hedeen" <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> To: "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 11:50:15 AM Subject: [R-M222] (R-M222) Age of M222 Taking a comparative look at Paul's GD distances between Irish & Scottish samples and considering Bernard's remarks could we be looking at the result of migration into Scotland to avoid being wiped out on the home turf that Bernard is suggesting? Based on my looks with in the project I've been looking at, I have a couple of groups that likely do not fit that scenario as the GD between them and the rest is excessive to 4000 years worth which could suggest a couple of other things; however, in regard to Paul's Byrnes, it very well could suggest a migration for reasons of safety...speculatively, and there by because they did survive to continue to reproduce they would evidence an older lineage.  Susan  R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Paul What do you understand by 'variance'? I use it in the mathematical sense, and it is defined as the mean of the squares of the differences between individual marker scores and the mean marker score. So let's say 10 people have the following marker scores for a particular marker of 25 25 26 24 25 27 24 24 25 25 The mean is 25, and the variance is {(25-25)^2 + (25-25)^2 + 26-25)^2 + (24-25)^2 + (25-25)^2 + (27-25)^2 + (24-25)^2 + (24-25)^2 + (25-25)^2 + (25-25)^2}/10 = 0.8 That's the variance that is used in the variance method of estimating TMRCA. When considering 67 markers, you add the variances calculated as above for the 67 markers then divide by the sum of the mutation rates to get the estimate for G, the estimated TMRCA. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net Sent: 28 October 2011 11:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Age of M222 "Their GD comparisons came out as follows (numbers across top in same order as descending): 117643 Donegal 0 7 10 10 14 13 36715 Sligo 7 0 12 13 17 19 149181 Roscommon 10 12 0 12 13 17 92019 Monaghan 10 13 9 0 13 14 145320 Kildare 14 17 11 14 0 20 20413 Scotland? 13 19 17 14 20 0 All I can see in this is that the Scotland entry shows the greatest variance, and therefore may be the oldest." The above chart was a comparison of GD distances between certain members of the Byrne project, selected to represent our various NWI subclusters. Perhaps a comparison of GDs against the L21 and M222 modals (K9VGV and M5UKQ) would be of more value. They come out as follows: M222 L21 Monaghan 5 15 Roscommon 6 22 Donegal 7 21 Sligo 8 24 Scotland 11 27 Kildare 12 33 The L21 figures are slightly skewered because in several cases Ysearch was comparing 74 markers rather than the usual 67, but the order seems to be as listed. I assume this indicates that Kildare and Scotland are the oldest, while Monaghan is the youngest. Paul R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message