"My line matches with the O'Byrne Northeast Modal at DYS=481. It also matches with Maguires and McCown. My line does not match with the Leinster line of the O'Byrnes and is quite different form other Wexford Kehoes. As of 11/7/11 I'm the only DF23+, M222- known to exist." I am sure Miles understands this, but for the benefit of others, when we talk of Northwest Irish Burns/Byrne (M222), Leinster Burns/Byrne (L159.2), Northeast Burns/Byrne (L513), and a number of other "lineages" we are into the orange/apple bin. These are completely unrelated groups who coincidentally wound up with the same or similar surnames. The northeast Byrne group he mentioned is associated with McGuires of the Airghialla-2 modal. Paul Burns

Additional information about Paternal Line: R-L21+ (DF23) Oral family tradition says we moved to Wexford from Wicklow in the mid 1700s. Irish annals say we are of the same stock as the O'Bynes, and moved with them from Kildare to Wicklow after the Norman invasion. My line matches with the O'Byrne Northeast Modal at DYS=481. It also matches with Maguires and McCown. My line does not match with the Leinster line of the O'Byrnes and is quite different form other Wexford Kehoes. As of 11/7/11 I'm the only DF23+, M222- known to exist.

/A Free Public Service from //Family Tree DNA/ <http://www.familytreedna.com> Need Help? <http://www.ysearch.org/help.asp?uid=65ZKB> Forgot Password? <http://www.ysearch.org/forgot_start.asp?uid=65ZKB> Disclaimer <http://www.ysearch.org/disclaimer.asp?uid=65ZKB> Displaying User ID: fsh3f Search by Last Name <http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_start.asp?uid=65ZKB> > Search by Last Name Results <javascript:history.go(-2);> > Last Names Matching "KEHOE" <javascript:history.go(-1);> > Displaying User *DYS 393* *DYS 390* *DYS 19/394* *DYS 391* *DYS 385a* *DYS 385b* *DYS 426* *DYS 388* *DYS 439* *DYS 389-1* 13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 *DYS 392* *DYS 389-2* *DYS 458* *DYS 459a* *DYS 459b* *DYS 455* *DYS 454* *DYS 447* *DYS 437* *DYS 448* 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 *DYS 449* *DYS 464a* *DYS 464b* *DYS 464c* *DYS 464d* *DYS 460* *GATA H4* *YCA IIa* *YCA IIb* *DYS 456* 30 15 15 17 17 11 10 19 23 16 *DYS 607* *DYS 576* *DYS 570* *CDY a* *CDY b* *DYS 442* *DYS 438* *DYS 531* *DYS 578* *DYS 395S1a* 16 20 17 36 38 13 12 11 9 15 *DYS 395S1b* *DYS 590* *DYS 537* *DYS 641* *DYS 472* *DYS 406S1* *DYS 511* *DYS 425* *DYS 413a* *DYS 413b* 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22 23 *DYS 557* *DYS 594* *DYS 436* *DYS 490* *DYS 534* *DYS 450* *DYS 444* *DYS 481* *DYS 520* *DYS 446* 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 24 20 13 *DYS 617* *DYS 568* *DYS 487* *DYS 572* *DYS 640* *DYS 492* *DYS 565* *DYS 461* *DYS 462* *GATA A10* 12 11 14 11 11 12 11 13 11 13 *DYS 635* *GAAT1B07* *DYS 441* *DYS 445* *DYS 452* *DYS 463* *DYS 717* 23 10 13 12 30 24 19 Haplogroup: R1b1a2a1a1b4 (tested) Last name: Kehoe Variant spellings: Keogh, Keough, Keoghoe, Mac Eochadha, MacEochaidh Tested with: Family Tree DNA Contact person: Miles Kehoe Contact this user <http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=65ZKB&letter=&lastname=KEHOE&viewuid=fsh3f&p=0#> Most distant known paternal ancestor on the direct male line First Name: Mogue (Moses) Last Name: Kehoe Year Born: 1799 Year Died: 1834 Country of Origin: Kiltilly, County Wexford, Ireland Latitude: Longitude: Additional information about Paternal Line: R-L21+ (DF23) Oral family tradition says we moved to Wexford from Wicklow in the mid 1700s. Irish annals say we are of the same stock as the O'Bynes, and moved with them from Kildare to Wicklow after the Norman invasion. My line matches with the O'Byrne Northeast Modal at DYS=481. It also matches with Maguires and McCown. My line does not match with the Leinster line of the O'Byrnes and is quite different form other Wexford Kehoes. As of 11/7/11 I'm the only DF23+, M222- known to exist.

I just head from a Kehoe from Wexford, Ireland, who tested DF23+ M222-. I will soon be setting up a section on the M222 project to include this result. The ysearch ID = fsh3f and he reports he is a GD of 19 from the M222 modal. I think that may be at 67 markers. At 37 he's more like 14. The question of course is whether he is pre M222. He really only has one M222 marker (390 = 25). He reports the following: DYS390=25 DYS449=30 DYS481=24 We have several other candidates in the M222 project who mimic M222 more closely than this. But it's interesting none the less. I'm sure more results will follow. John

Yes, Jerry, This excerpt found on the site Gene copied from is taken from the book authored by Josephine Riser Basset, the niece of Elizabeth Ellen McConnaughey West (b. 4/13/1849), my great grandfather's (John Thomson McC) Sister. They kept tradition that they were Scot first, the ancestors planted in Ulster during the plantation days. We know not when they arrived in Ulster but suspect about the mid-1600's. We found several McC in the Donegal/W Derry area during the time they would have been there; Platt is traditionally an English name, and we've found Platts in Donegal/W Derry area at the same time in very close proximity to one another in the various records, and they likely were planted as well. All the religious records which survived the fire 1920 have been scoured. Have found no baptisms or marriages. Due to the way these and other McCs practiced naming their children we believe David Sr's father's name was James (oldest son was James followed in order by David, Robert, John, Francis; girls Elizabeth, Jane, Mary) and likely Jane's father was Robert Platt also found in records of that area. The leases were inheritable thus all the bases were covered for one in the family to inherit upon the death of a grandparent or parent. John the youngest of the 5 children they immigrated with was born Ireland 1754 thus Josephine was slightly in error there, but by only a few years. Susan

Many thanks, Susan.  Absolutely wonderful research. Le gach dea-ghui/ Best,Jerry --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: From: Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> Subject: [R-M222] David McConnaughey, Sr. Jerry Kelly To: jerrykelly@irishtribes.com, "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 5:58 PM Yes, Jerry, This excerpt found on the site Gene copied from is taken from the book authored by Josephine Riser Basset, the niece of Elizabeth Ellen McConnaughey West (b. 4/13/1849), my great grandfather's (John Thomson McC) Sister.  They kept tradition that they were Scot first, the ancestors planted in Ulster during the plantation days.  We know not when they arrived in Ulster but suspect about the mid-1600's.  We found several McC in the Donegal/W Derry area during the time they would have been there; Platt is traditionally an English name, and we've found Platts in Donegal/W Derry area at the same time in very close proximity to one another in the various records, and they likely were planted as well.  All the religious records which survived the fire 1920 have been scoured.  Have found no baptisms or marriages.  Due to the way these and other McCs practiced naming their children we believe David Sr's father's name was James (oldest son was James followed in order by David, Robert, John, Francis; girls Elizabeth, Jane, Mary) and likely Jane's father was Robert Platt also found in records of that area. The leases were inheritable thus all the bases were covered for one in the family to inherit upon the death of a grandparent or parent.  John the youngest of the 5 children they immigrated with was born Ireland 1754 thus Josephine was slightly in error there, but by only a few years.  Susan

A chara, Many thanks for sharing this.  It's wonderful research.   I was wondering whether David McConnaughey was Irish or Scots-Irish.  I ask this because of the following factors. In the 2 centuries or so before David McConnaughey's birth, the Gaelic language (it was still 1 language through the 18th century) experienced a grammatical change.  In many Gaelic-speaking areas, Mac Donnchadha became Mac Dhonnchaidh.  The latter, using English phonetics, results in the McConnaughey form with its variations in spelling.  For those on the list who speak Irish or Scottish Gaelic, you've already recognized this as a shift of the name Donnchadh from the 3rd declension to the 1st declension.  This happened to a number of 3rd declension names in that period. Given that this shift happened both in Scotland and Ireland, the name McConnaughey and its variants can be either Scottish or Irish.  Given that the Penal Laws in North America effectively outlawed Catholicism (except for Maryland until 1689 and New York 1685-1689), religion isn't a good indicator of origin for those who arrived in America during the colonial period. Looking forward to your thoughts. Le gach dea-ghui/Best,Jerry Treibheanna Éireannachawww.irishtribes.com --- On Thu, 9/15/11, GAshley923@aol.com <GAshley923@aol.com> wrote: From: GAshley923@aol.com <GAshley923@aol.com> Subject: [R-M222] David McConnaughey, Sr., arrived in America in 1750. To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, September 15, 2011, 10:47 AM   David and Jane McConnaughey _David McConnaughey Family Tree_ (http://themcconachyclan.com/edit/pdf/David%20McConnaughey%20Tree%20V6.pdf)    -  PDF REVISED  VERSION OF THE DAVID MCCONNAUGHEY CLAN  TREE _McConnaughey - Pennsylania_ (http://themcconachyclan.com/edit/pdf/The%20McConnaugheys%20in%20Pennsylvania%20V22.pdf)  PDF 50KB David McConnaughey, Sr., arrived in America in 1750.  This date was confirmed through two other branches of the family, James  McConnaughey, a Revolutionary soldier, and that of his younger brother, David  McConnaughey Jr., who died in the 1812 war. Like many other Scottish/Irish emigrants, it was the  treatment by the English government that drove them to emigate from Ulster to  America. Ulster had become too prosperous for the English liking, as the Irish  were able to produce better and cheaper goods and cattle than England could. The  Irish were forbidden to trade with England's colonies and this lead to to the  Irish seaports veing ruined. This in turn led to land values dropping and  tenants becoming improvished. Fortunately for the McConnaugheys, Ulster, being a  more prosperous region, has a system where a tenant on his departure from a  holding had the custusary right toreceive compensation for any imporivements he  had made. This system encouraged improvements, increased profits and made the  Ulster agriculturist more progressive than the southerners. This right to  compensation for improvement furnished many emigrants with a small capital  making it possible for them to emigrate to America. It is possible that this  provided the passage money to America for our branch of the McConnaughey  family. David McConnaughy settled in Path Valley, now in  Franklin County, PA. In about 1790, two, perhaps three, of his children moved up  into Venango County, Pa.,and then later moving southwest into Beaver County, Pa.  The remaining children and their families, together with the David Sr.and his  wife Jane Platt emigrated into Westmoreland County, Pa. in about 1800. Some  settling near Homer City on Two Lick Creek, while others settle in Indiana  County, Pa. A generation later both groups had lost all contact and knowledge of  each other. The compilation of this genealogy is possible  because of the historical sense of the late Elizabeth (McConnaughey) West, who  preserved the documents and traditions of her grandfather, David McConnaughey,  Jr., of Beaver County, Pa., and to Edward L. McConaughy of LaGrange, Ill., who  preserved, as clippings, the writings of Dr. Francis M. McConnaughy, grandson of  the Revolutionary soldier, James McConnaughey, oldest son of the emigrant  ancestor, of Indiana County, Pa. Special thanks to the  many clan members from the USA who have contributed the information  contained in this  tree. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[In both versions the Ewings consistently are more distant from the modal than any other large cluster..] Over 111-markers the Ewings are actually below average in GD from modal. Not by much, but below average nonetheless. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 07 November 2011 06:45 To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Irish/Scottish M222 geographical spread study In a message dated 11/6/2011 9:29:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: Well, in a study such as what I'm suggesting, we aren't looking to establish or refute relatedness. What we are looking for is diversity, and that diversity will show through mutation. The further away from the modal, speculatively, the more diverse. I put an .xls file online showing genetic distance from the modal for every member of the M222 project. This was generated by a function in the admin GAP pages using a McKenzie (an exact match to the M222 modal) as a reference point. Markers used were 37. The most distant in the project is now a Burgess at 14 from the modal. As I note in the file however there is no SNP test for this sample and it's somewhat off modal so it may not be M222. Next up is a Brennan at 13 (M222+) followed by three at 12, two of whom are M222+. The Conroy sample is no longer in the project but in a similar file of a few years ago came in at 15. If there are non M222 samples in the project you surely cannot detect it via genetic distance. clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222GD.xls There are only a few large related clusters in the project. Doherty, McLaughlin, Cowan, Dunbar, Burns or Byrnes, Ewings. There are a few smaller clusters of three or more including Grierson, Milligan, Wilson. Any one wishes can get genetic distance from other sources and add the names to the file. Some of these clusters appear at different genetic distances. Cowans for example have clusters at 3, 4,5, 6. I haven't yet checked to see why this is so. As a cluster of three or more, the Ewings are the most distant in the group at 8,9,10. They are followed by Fergusons and Griersons at 8. A few members of our McLaughin of Donegal cluster also appear at 8,9, although the center of the group is at 6. The Dohertys also have various small and large clusters. In Bill Howard's phylogenetic charts based on RCC, the Howles clustered with the Dohertys, McLaughlins, McGonagles and a few other NW Irish septs. One can read the same thing into these genetic distance clusters. In both versions the Ewings consistently are more distant from the modal than any other large cluster.. The very last sample however would be Conroy were he still in the project. His family is from Ireland as far back as they remember. The next to last name is Brennan, apparently also Irish. The sample labeled O'Doherty at 6 lies in the center of the main Doherty cluster. It's the DNA of the brother of the current O Dochartaigh chief of sept, descended from Sir Cahir O'Doherty, slain in 1608. I'm not sure I can read much into genetic distance against the M222 modal. Samples, Scottish and Irish, seem to be scattered all over the place. There might be a better way of measuring diversity. I also pulled down all the M222 samples from the Clan McDonald DNA project. This includes a lot of different surnames, not just McDonalds. The clan society thinks they are somehow from Ireland, citing gallowglass affiliations and even Colla Uais. There seems to be almost no evidence of a common descent in this group except for a few samples and those are mainly close by virtue of being close to the M222 modal with few off modal markers. I might throw this online as well if I get a chance. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 11/6/2011 9:29:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: Well, in a study such as what I'm suggesting, we aren't looking to establish or refute relatedness. What we are looking for is diversity, and that diversity will show through mutation. The further away from the modal, speculatively, the more diverse. I put an .xls file online showing genetic distance from the modal for every member of the M222 project. This was generated by a function in the admin GAP pages using a McKenzie (an exact match to the M222 modal) as a reference point. Markers used were 37. The most distant in the project is now a Burgess at 14 from the modal. As I note in the file however there is no SNP test for this sample and it's somewhat off modal so it may not be M222. Next up is a Brennan at 13 (M222+) followed by three at 12, two of whom are M222+. The Conroy sample is no longer in the project but in a similar file of a few years ago came in at 15. If there are non M222 samples in the project you surely cannot detect it via genetic distance. clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222GD.xls There are only a few large related clusters in the project. Doherty, McLaughlin, Cowan, Dunbar, Burns or Byrnes, Ewings. There are a few smaller clusters of three or more including Grierson, Milligan, Wilson. Any one wishes can get genetic distance from other sources and add the names to the file. Some of these clusters appear at different genetic distances. Cowans for example have clusters at 3, 4,5, 6. I haven't yet checked to see why this is so. As a cluster of three or more, the Ewings are the most distant in the group at 8,9,10. They are followed by Fergusons and Griersons at 8. A few members of our McLaughin of Donegal cluster also appear at 8,9, although the center of the group is at 6. The Dohertys also have various small and large clusters. In Bill Howard's phylogenetic charts based on RCC, the Howles clustered with the Dohertys, McLaughlins, McGonagles and a few other NW Irish septs. One can read the same thing into these genetic distance clusters. In both versions the Ewings consistently are more distant from the modal than any other large cluster.. The very last sample however would be Conroy were he still in the project. His family is from Ireland as far back as they remember. The next to last name is Brennan, apparently also Irish. The sample labeled O'Doherty at 6 lies in the center of the main Doherty cluster. It's the DNA of the brother of the current O Dochartaigh chief of sept, descended from Sir Cahir O'Doherty, slain in 1608. I'm not sure I can read much into genetic distance against the M222 modal. Samples, Scottish and Irish, seem to be scattered all over the place. There might be a better way of measuring diversity. I also pulled down all the M222 samples from the Clan McDonald DNA project. This includes a lot of different surnames, not just McDonalds. The clan society thinks they are somehow from Ireland, citing gallowglass affiliations and even Colla Uais. There seems to be almost no evidence of a common descent in this group except for a few samples and those are mainly close by virtue of being close to the M222 modal with few off modal markers. I might throw this online as well if I get a chance. John

Update on this: Kehoe, kit 97610, is now the first person to officially be DF23+ M222-. His furthest-known male-line ancestor is from County Wexford, Ireland. In other words, he is the closest relative yet known to the M222+ folks without actually being M222+. His line branched off before the M222 mutation occurred. It's early days yet and it will be interesting to see where other DF23+ M222- people turn out to be from. Steve On 3 November 2011 21:51, Stephen Forrest <stephen.forrest@gmail.com> wrote: > There was a subsequent post on DNA Forums by Mike in which he paraphrased > a message he'd got from Max Blankfeld of FTDNA. Mr. Blankfeld stated that > a mistake had been made in his test and he was actually M222+ after all, > and they are giving him refunds for all the unnecessary SNP tests since his > initial deep clade test. > > A few people have since pointed out that there still several M222- guys > left who are close to the North-West Irish modal and who would be good > candidates for DF23 testing. >

Hi, Larry, Well, in a study such as what I'm suggesting, we aren't looking to establish or refute relatedness. What we are looking for is diversity, and that diversity will show through mutation. The further away from the modal, speculatively, the more diverse. In this kind of look, surname other than a possible sign of geographic environs often signaled through spelling and/or other linguistic earmarks need not be be an obstacle as relatedness is not the object. To be considered in this, however are some other information. As an example, the name McConnaughey variously spelled in this configuration (often seen in shorter forms with a few exceptions of longer forms) is an English scribes invention attempting to spell the name phonetically, and in this form it occurred in Ireland during the Ulster Plantation years by enlarge. Those Ulstermen, however lived on the Scot side for many hundreds of years previous to the Plantation, and the common Anglicization at the time on the Scot side was a variant spelling of McConnachie. In both cases the name was pronounced M'Con(a)KEE-- the a in () as more often than not it was silent but depending on dialect would be added in vowel form. This name in Gaelic was M'Donn(a)chaidh, and the D was pronounced as a hard C. The point of this is that immigrants to the American colonies primarily during the 1700's considered themselves Scot first even if their families had resided as planters in Ulster for possibly 100 years previous to immigrating out. There are other surnames that share environs. Kennedy, Duncan, Morrison (we have one fellow in this list who has posted about his trip down the surname trail), and the list could go on. The administrators of the projects sometimes know who have which heritages. So, heritage must be a consideration when the surnames are known in both environs. These administrators are invaluable in this kind of look. There are other surnames, however, which are seemingly environ specific. Certainly if we were to attempt to look at say the US 2011 that assumption would be thrown out the window; but we are trying to look back at a time previous to surnames using them after they were chosen or acquired as our window into the past. With in M222, I absolutely agree with you that the closer one's DNA is to the modal the more unrelated matches there will be. This is one of the reasons why off modal markers which may flow through a group even of different surnames is a valuable tool for establishing possible former relatedness. Indeed the more markers which are tested the more diverse any given group will appear as family groups then begin to seed up at 67 and 111 markers; however, as I said, we aren't looking for relatedness among surnames although some ancient relatedness among some may be a side benefit. The test would be whether or not at 37 markers we see the diversity or not see the diversity which has been suggested in chatter between Ireland M222 and Scotland, England, France, etc. If it is there it _*might*_ suggest the direction of the geographic spread. Susan

GOOD INSIGHT! THANKS, DON M -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 6:59 PM To: lawrencedill@ymail.com; dna-r1b1c7; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Irish/Scottish M222 geographical spread study Hi, Larry, Well, in a study such as what I'm suggesting, we aren't looking to establish or refute relatedness. What we are looking for is diversity, and that diversity will show through mutation. The further away from the modal, speculatively, the more diverse. In this kind of look, surname other than a possible sign of geographic environs often signaled through spelling and/or other linguistic earmarks need not be be an obstacle as relatedness is not the object. To be considered in this, however are some other information. As an example, the name McConnaughey variously spelled in this configuration (often seen in shorter forms with a few exceptions of longer forms) is an English scribes invention attempting to spell the name phonetically, and in this form it occurred in Ireland during the Ulster Plantation years by enlarge. Those Ulstermen, however lived on the Scot side for many hundreds of years previous to the Plantation, and the common Anglicization at the time on the Scot side was a variant spelling of McConnachie. In both cases the name was pronounced M'Con(a)KEE-- the a in () as more often than not it was silent but depending on dialect would be added in vowel form. This name in Gaelic was M'Donn(a)chaidh, and the D was pronounced as a hard C. The point of this is that immigrants to the American colonies primarily during the 1700's considered themselves Scot first even if their families had resided as planters in Ulster for possibly 100 years previous to immigrating out. There are other surnames that share environs. Kennedy, Duncan, Morrison (we have one fellow in this list who has posted about his trip down the surname trail), and the list could go on. The administrators of the projects sometimes know who have which heritages. So, heritage must be a consideration when the surnames are known in both environs. These administrators are invaluable in this kind of look. There are other surnames, however, which are seemingly environ specific. Certainly if we were to attempt to look at say the US 2011 that assumption would be thrown out the window; but we are trying to look back at a time previous to surnames using them after they were chosen or acquired as our window into the past. With in M222, I absolutely agree with you that the closer one's DNA is to the modal the more unrelated matches there will be. This is one of the reasons why off modal markers which may flow through a group even of different surnames is a valuable tool for establishing possible former relatedness. Indeed the more markers which are tested the more diverse any given group will appear as family groups then begin to seed up at 67 and 111 markers; however, as I said, we aren't looking for relatedness among surnames although some ancient relatedness among some may be a side benefit. The test would be whether or not at 37 markers we see the diversity or not see the diversity which has been suggested in chatter between Ireland M222 and Scotland, England, France, etc. If it is there it _*might*_ suggest the direction of the geographic spread. Susan R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

37 markers is not enough markers to look at for people who are close to the R-M222 modal because they have too many matches with people that are not related. People who are within a genetic distance of 3 of the 37 marker modal have too many matches. These people have to look at their 67 markers to find their related matches.

The variance exhibited by the Scots 67-marker M222+ at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Scottishdna/default.aspx is 8.83 compared to 9.04 for M222+ from all origins. The sample sizes were 47 and 538 respectively. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: 05 November 2011 16:52 To: dna-r1b1c7; DNA-R1B1C7-D-request@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Irish/Scottish M222 geographic spread study Does any one know beyond the individual group projects whether or not there has been a comparative study done between the Irish M222 surnames & Scottish M222 surnames? I know that is a rather loaded question in that so many of the surnames cross; in which case it then comes down to heritage environs in sorting. The Irish have gotten some pretty good looks. Individual projects, and there are several administrators on the list who have taken these looks with-in their own projects. Would there be interest in the pooling of information already completed with-in these projects, ie pulling out the Scot M222 and comparing them as a huge group as has been done with many of the Irish studies, and then comparing the Scot data to the Irish data to see if the suspected diversity among the Scots is actualy valid? It seems that it has been an observation among many if the chatter is accurate, but has any one actually put it to the test? And is there value in doing so? I think it might carry value, although I'm not certain what else we would learn other that supporting or dispoving the casual observations, but in such a study we might turn up alliances otherwise not observable simply because of the group status defined by surname, clan, or geographic areas. This list being a sub-clade list has many participants from many groups, and it might be worth organizing a cooperative effort to look. Susan R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hey, Sandy, Which 67 marker samples of this project were you comparing? Did you pull all the SNP & unambiguous M222+ (538) out of this project to compare to which 47? Those who had been SNP w/ Scot surnames?; those who carry Scottish surnames & unambiguous &/or SNP?; those who state emphatically Scottish environs of oldest known ancestor w/either SNP &/or unambiguous? What was the starting criteria for your samples other than being 67 marker strings? Did you compare your final results to the Irish data for M222+? Even though this is a geographic project, I'd guess it isn't representative of all those w/Scot supposed heritage as it is dependent on those joining who have tested under the surname and/or other smaller projects. For that matter, however, Ysearch, Sorenson Data, and other repositories of results are as well. I'd like to see some 37 marker work done and not just among Scott samples but Scott (surname and/or geographic area) in comparison to the Irish sampling of the same. And I'm willing to work with-in a group who will set study criteria, collect and/or contribute the data from their projects, etc. The 67 marker samplings among Scot geography are a great start but misses a significant number who have tested 37 only. Resolution of the 37 is fine for these kinds of looks and likely will yield the most data. Although 67 & 111 marker tests would seem to have more resolution, their greatest value in my opinion is in more recent relatedness between pairs and groups. I understand the concept that the more the markers the more mutations may be evident by virtue of the added opportunity to view more markers, however, the first 37 are actually targeting those more compatible with the time frame we are concerned with. The first 37 markers can easily be pulled from any result which tests a higher number of markers; however 30 or more markers cannot be assumed for those who have tested only 37. None the less, Sandy, your look is suggestive (depending on the sample criteria) that there is more variance with geographic spread. How that relates to the variance between those of Ireland and Scotland, however is yet unknown. In thinking about this more last eve, it might be good to also compare the Irish not only to the Scots, but those M222+ stating England, France, Germany/Austria/Switzerland and other environs where M222+ has cropped up in the testing. These kinds of comprehensive looks may be helpful in further hypothesizing directional spread -- east to west or west to east. It is a maybe as what is unknown is whether or not those tested descend from more indigenous peoples or those who simply descend from those who migrated in. One of our members has been looking in depth at the supposed M222 associated with the Abbeys set up by the Kindred in Scotland. One thing he discovered in his research was the missionary work which flowed out of these Abbeys. Apparently in addition to Celtic/Christianization of the populations in Scot environs they also sent out missionaries in groups of 13 to England, France, Germany, Spain and other European environs as well. He states that the evidence is showing that these missionaries were marrying and many also stayed in the environs where they were sent. Just some thoughts on the matter and very hopeful that several also see the value of these looks and willing to participate in a group effort. Too much work for 1 or 2 people alone, and since we all are volunteering our time to these interests, it isn't as if anyone is paying us because we work for a research group etc. Susan On 11/6/2011 5:02 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > The variance exhibited by the Scots 67-marker M222+ at > > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Scottishdna/default.aspx > > is 8.83 compared to 9.04 for M222+ from all origins. The > sample sizes were 47 and 538 respectively. > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen > Sent: 05 November 2011 16:52 > To: dna-r1b1c7; DNA-R1B1C7-D-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Irish/Scottish M222 geographic spread study > > Does any one know beyond the individual group projects whether or not > there has been a comparative study done between the Irish M222 surnames > & Scottish M222 surnames? > > I know that is a rather loaded question in that so many of the surnames > cross; in which case it then comes down to heritage environs in sorting. > > The Irish have gotten some pretty good looks. Individual projects, and > there are several administrators on the list who have taken these looks > with-in their own projects. Would there be interest in the pooling of > information already completed with-in these projects, ie pulling out the > Scot M222 and comparing them as a huge group as has been done with many > of the Irish studies, and then comparing the Scot data to the Irish data > to see if the suspected diversity among the Scots is actualy valid? > > It seems that it has been an observation among many if the chatter is > accurate, but has any one actually put it to the test? And is there > value in doing so? I think it might carry value, although I'm not > certain what else we would learn other that supporting or dispoving the > casual observations, but in such a study we might turn up alliances > otherwise not observable simply because of the group status defined by > surname, clan, or geographic areas. > > This list being a sub-clade list has many participants from many groups, > and it might be worth organizing a cooperative effort to look. Susan > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Very possible, maybe even probable. I've read that the Brythonic Celts entered into Britain via Gaul -France. There was a sizable Celtic settlement (s) across the channel for hundreds+++ of years. Some say they were P Celts associated with the Brythonic Celts of Wales & Britain; others say Le Tene. Easily could have been both. Both were known to have migrated into Britain. The La Tene are said to have migrated into Scotland & Ireland as well.

Good idea, Susan! It seems that during the past couple of thousand years there has been a LOT of genetic migration between Ireland and Scotland, including the Western Isles, too. On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > Does any one know beyond the individual group projects whether or not > there has been a comparative study done between the Irish M222 surnames > & Scottish M222 surnames? > > I know that is a rather loaded question in that so many of the surnames > cross; in which case it then comes down to heritage environs in sorting. > > The Irish have gotten some pretty good looks. Individual projects, and > there are several administrators on the list who have taken these looks > with-in their own projects. Would there be interest in the pooling of > information already completed with-in these projects, ie pulling out the > Scot M222 and comparing them as a huge group as has been done with many > of the Irish studies, and then comparing the Scot data to the Irish data > to see if the suspected diversity among the Scots is actualy valid? > > It seems that it has been an observation among many if the chatter is > accurate, but has any one actually put it to the test? And is there > value in doing so? I think it might carry value, although I'm not > certain what else we would learn other that supporting or dispoving the > casual observations, but in such a study we might turn up alliances > otherwise not observable simply because of the group status defined by > surname, clan, or geographic areas. > > This list being a sub-clade list has many participants from many groups, > and it might be worth organizing a cooperative effort to look. Susan > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

NICE... DON M -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 8:27 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] DNA Forums I've been locked out of DNA-Forums for some time; just got back in with a new email address and password today. There's a lot of chatter in the forums about M222 including some in the L21 project including the admin. who think M222 originated in Scotland. In one post he cites the greater diversity found in SW Scotland. David Wilson also posted a few times. Here's part of one. "In the earliest days I thought that M222, because of its distinctive Y-STRs, might have been a really ancient line that got into Ireland soon after the last retreat of the ice. When the L21 SNP was recognized and proved to be earlier while definitely younger in absolute time, that theory was buried at the crossroads with a stake through its heart. The next question then became whether the much younger M222 group originated in Ireland. I have never believed that it had to originate there, but it obviously flourished there once it appeared. I still think it possible that the SNP originated first in the area north of where Hadrian would build his wall." Here's another one by someone who used to post frequently on the GEN-DNA list. "Its a shame we know the name of the M222 guy but not the DF23* guy. The M222 guy fits into the typical Connachta M222 clan origin. So no surprise there. Its the other guy whose surname would be interesting to know. My understanding from discussions of pre-M222 STR guys (who I would guess are good condidates for DF23*) are not from the Connaught/NW Ulster origins and they tend more to be from the SW Scottish border area with the only Irish examples being located in Leinster. Clearly the most likely origin point for M222 is where both pre-M222 and M222 are found and as far as I know that is SW Scotland, not NW Ireland. This could be wrong but that is the way it seemed when a list of pre-M222 was presented here some time ago. My hunch has long been that the shared connection between SW Scotland, NW Ireland and perhaps Leinster is the Damnoni/Dumnoni/Fir Domnainn one. I think there are hints that they by the early centuries AD if not well before were some kind of major power on the seas and with powerbases along the coasts with the name and similar names appearing in SW England, Strathclyde, Leinster and NW Connaught etc. " I just thought people in this forum would be interested to see there are quite a few different opinions out there on where M222 originated. Not all follow the NW Ireland dogma of the geneticists. We've talked about a lot them in this forum. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I MIGHT ADD THERE MAY HAVE BEEN AN "M-222 MOVEMENT" FROM SOUTHERN BRITAIN NORTH TO WALES, THENCE TO SCOTLAND, PARAREL TO THE MOVEMENT OF "M-222 CELTS" UP INTO IRELAND. COULD ANCESTRAL CELTIC TRIBES FROM CENTRAL AND WESTERN EUROPE (IN THE PROCESS OF DEVELOPING M-222 DNA ENTERED IRELAND AND SOUTHERN BRITAIN ABOUT THE SAME TIME) AND MOVED NORTH? EARLY HISTORIES OF WALES WRITTEN BY ESTEEMED WELSH HISTORIANS SUGGEST INVASIONS OF POSSIBLE "M-222 CELTS" FROM EASTERN IRELAND CIRCA DUBLIN AREA INTO WALES. PERHAPS, AN "M-222+ BRYTHONIC-SPEAKING CELTIC MOVEMENT" ENTERED SOUTHERN BRITAIN, AND PENETRATED NORTH INTO NORTHERN ENGLAND, SOUTHERN SCOTLAND, AND INTO THE CENTRAL AND EASTERN HIGHLANDS, WHERE SOME OF THEM WERE KNOWN AS PICTS, WHO WERE BRYTHONIC SPEAKERS? DONALD AMULIGANE -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 12:38 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] DNA Forums by Lochlan (Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:27:21 -0400 (EDT)) In reply to: * [R-M222] DNA Forums <http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2011-11/1320377241 > by /Lochlan/ (Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:27:21 -0400 (EDT)) John says: I just thought people in this forum would be interested to see there are quite a few different opinions out there on where M222 originated. Not all follow the NW Ireland dogma of the geneticists. We've talked about a lot them in this forum. From a member of our FTDNA McKee Group: I had a look at the latest postings (ie. more variance in Scottish M222+ persons therefore perhaps older or more direct tie to the initial M222 man) with the further suggestion that M222 migrated from Ireland to Scotland relatively early on to explain this finding.It is perhaps time to remind myself again that the Macaoidh legend had 2 brothers being forced from northern Ireland to northern Scotland after an unsuccessful power struggle. This would be entirely consistent with the data as I understand them. And, a further piece of support for the notion that the legends are not entirely made up aggrandizing fictions. Here is the important part:"Descended from the Pictish Royal House of MacEth, the progenitor of the clan is Iye (MacEth), grandson of Earl of Ross, raised to Chiefship in 1250. Iye in Gaelic is AOIDH, meaning "fire" and anglicized as "ay" or "y" and pronounced"eye" - hence Mackay is properly pronounced "mhuc eye"not "mah kaay". His people were originally from Ireland, following two brothers deported after battle loss for kingship in 335 A.D. These Moray men were dispersed principally north to Strathnaver Region by order of King Malcolm IV in 1160 who defeated Malcolm MacEth, Earl of Ross whose daughter Gormalth married the Norse Harold, Earl of Caithness. Argyll Mackays, linked with House of Strachnaver, fledsouth. Similarly, McGhies of Galloway. Mackays became famous for strength, courage and skill in soldiering and were involved in endless Clan battles against Keiths, Rosses, Gunns, Sinclairs, Sutherlands and others, and wars abroad. Donald, son of Iye Mor, married the daughter of Iye, son of Neil of Gilgha of Kintyre and supported Bruce at Bannockburn in 1314. In 1329, Robert the Bruce gave lands in Kintyre to Gilchrist McCay for service of archers. Mackies of Largs received a land charter from Bruce in Kirkcudbright." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Does any one know beyond the individual group projects whether or not there has been a comparative study done between the Irish M222 surnames & Scottish M222 surnames? I know that is a rather loaded question in that so many of the surnames cross; in which case it then comes down to heritage environs in sorting. The Irish have gotten some pretty good looks. Individual projects, and there are several administrators on the list who have taken these looks with-in their own projects. Would there be interest in the pooling of information already completed with-in these projects, ie pulling out the Scot M222 and comparing them as a huge group as has been done with many of the Irish studies, and then comparing the Scot data to the Irish data to see if the suspected diversity among the Scots is actualy valid? It seems that it has been an observation among many if the chatter is accurate, but has any one actually put it to the test? And is there value in doing so? I think it might carry value, although I'm not certain what else we would learn other that supporting or dispoving the casual observations, but in such a study we might turn up alliances otherwise not observable simply because of the group status defined by surname, clan, or geographic areas. This list being a sub-clade list has many participants from many groups, and it might be worth organizing a cooperative effort to look. Susan