"Paul, I'm not sure I get that. Were the two M222-?" John, I knew you would spot the defect in my logic when I tested the O'Beirne from Roscommon and the non-related (to me) Burns from Sligo for DF23 (both positive). FTDNA had them as "predicted M269," which is not much help of course, but their STRs contained the M222 indicators. But since they were on the fringes of my Byrne/Burns/Beirne NWI cluster, and since some accounts had Niall, Brion, and Fiachra living in Roscommon, I wondered if they could be pre-M222. After ordering the DF23 tests, I realized that I should have started with M222 tests, then worked upwards if that test turned out negative. So I still do not know whether they are DF23+/M222+ or DF23+/M222-. Paul

Susan, Mike Walsh is quite knowledgeable, and he says M222 is downstream of DF23, so therefore anyone who is M222 positive has to be positive for DF23 and L21 above it on the tree. I don't know how many M222s have tested positive for DF23, but it must be enough to convince Mike. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Hedeen" <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> To: pabloburns@comcast.net, lochlan@aol.com, "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 2:02:14 PM Subject: DF 23+ I have a question. If a result is SNP tested M222+ L21+, is it a foregone conclusion that they also will be DF23+. I've understood that to be the case, but do we know that? Susan

In a message dated 11/17/2011 6:42:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, Lochlan@aol.com writes: In a message dated 11/17/2011 5:34:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, pabloburns@comcast.net writes: I tested two project members whom I had listed as "probable M222." One was an O'Beirne (149181) who lives in Roscommon, and the other was a Burns (149182) whose ancestors came from Sligo but were not related to mine. Both were DF23 positive. Paul Paul, I'm not sure I get that. Were the two M222-? Or were they just tested for DF23? I answered my own question by looking at the SNP tests. They just show a test for DF23. But not M222. The SNP section of M222 is now showing 8 DF23+ M222+ results. It does seem all M222+ are going to be DF23+. John

There are four new DF23+ M222- samples listed on the L21 site today. None of these have much in the way of M222 modal markers. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/DF23.xls_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/DF23.xls) GDs vary; N1871 Warren has none of the typical M222 pattern yet is just an 11 GD from the M222 modal at 37 markers. The others are 16 (2), 17, 19. None of these samples are close to each other in terms of GDs. The FTDNA haplotree does not yet reflect the placement of DF23.

In a message dated 11/17/2011 5:34:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, pabloburns@comcast.net writes: I tested two project members whom I had listed as "probable M222." One was an O'Beirne (149181) who lives in Roscommon, and the other was a Burns (149182) whose ancestors came from Sligo but were not related to mine. Both were DF23 positive. Paul Paul, I'm not sure I get that. Were the two M222-? Or were they just tested for DF23? John

Adding a few corrections to my original post of November 13 re matches to McGonigal. By the time I had added all the missing markers, the closest GD was 17, which is way out there. Also, they don't really have Nithsdale roots. They went mainly to Glasgow, some to Ayrshire, and a few to Aberdeenshire. In short, this was a false alarm--a case of counting my chickens before they hatched! They remain the closest matches at 95 markers that we have right now.

I have a question. If a result is SNP tested M222+ L21+, is it a foregone conclusion that they also will be DF23+. I've understood that to be the case, but do we know that? Susan

John, I tested two project members whom I had listed as "probable M222." One was an O'Beirne (149181) who lives in Roscommon, and the other was a Burns (149182) whose ancestors came from Sligo but were not related to mine. Both were DF23 positive. Paul

There's a new DF23+ sample. The surname is unlisted on the L21 site but sources tell me the surname is actually Stanton although he goes by the name of Ferrill. This one has several of the typical M222 modal markers, most notably 390 = 25 and 392 = 14. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/DF23.xls_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/DF23.xls) John

There are a few more DF23+ M222- samples listed on the L21 site. 63595 James Anglin, b.c. 1720 (Ireland) - d. 1778 (USA) R1b1a2a1a1b4 R-L21 DF23+, L144-, L159.2-, L193-, L21+, L226-, L513-, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P314.2-, P66-, SRY2627-, Z253-, Z255- 97610 Mogue Kehoe b.1799 Kiltilly, Co. Wexford, Ire R1b1a2a1a1b4 R-L21 DF23+, L159.2-, L21+, L513-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198- 137235 Robert Caldwell, b.1750, York County, PA R1b1a2a1a1b4 R-L21 DF21-, DF23+, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L226-, L302-, L319.1-, L513-, L96-, M153-, M222-, M37-, M65-, P312+, P314.2-, P66-, SRY2627-, U152-, Z253- I compared these to the M222 modal at 37 markers. 97610 Kehoe (14 GD) 137235 Caldwell (16 GD) 63595 Anglin (26 GD) For comparison purposes bear in mind the Conroy was the furthest M222+ at 15 GD. If you prefer 67 markers the numbers are: Kehoe (20) Caldwell (21) Anglin (29) You're out of luck at 111 markers. There's only one such sample. I myself don't see any obvious pre M222 signs in the STRS. One sample has 390 = 25 (Kehoe). One has 392 = 14 ( Caldwell). The third sample Anglin has nothing that resembles M222. I put a spreadsheet with these samples on the M222 site and will update when new results appear. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/DF23.xls_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/DF23.xls)

If I'm not mistaken, it seems that casual observations of the haplotypes of those either with Scott names and/or claims of Scotland either anecdotal or oldest known ancestor environ suggest that there may be more diversity among the Scot samples. This, however, I believe has not been studied beyond the surname and clan projects where administrators and/or interested individuals are observing and comparing the haplotypes. It would be very good to do a comprehensive collective study comparing the two groups; that in itself however would be a major project which would require the aid and assistance of administrators, data collectors, and those with the analytical computer models and utilities to cooperate on. It has been suggested, but thus far I don't know if anyone has moved on it. Susan On 11/14/2011 7:34 PM, Marie Kerr wrote: > Having received the referenced email myself I checked out the Wikipedia > reference to my husband's DNA. Although his was detailed, it was > interesting that our (my father's) M222 was not fleshed out. In any case, > I am very interested in how testing is going with existing inhabitants of > "Northwest Irish/Lowland Scots." > > Has anyone commissioned a study of existing inhabitants? My father, having > been so close to the modal M222 values and also knowing exactly where his > parent were from (NW Ireland), would seem to be an ideal reference. > > Marie Golden Kerr (James J. Golden) > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 4:13 PM > To: dna-r1b1c7; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com; dna@irishtype3dna.org > Subject: [R-M222] RootsWeb: GENEALOGY-DNA-L [DNA] Geographic specificity > > See this announcement posted to Genealogy DNA L @ Rootsweb. This is a good > tool, but for the Scot - Irish concerns may be somewhat of a misnomer when > considering M222 and other SNPs of prevalence in the two environs in > consideration mostly to Ulster. > > Because of the record loss of the 1920's fire which wiped out most beyond > about 75% of the indexes in Ireland, and the poor records in Scotland > previous to about the 1700's religious records, those with anecdotal > histories of being Scot (in some cases English) planters of Gallowglass > migrants into Ulster and remaining until immigrating out must generally give > up the environ of the earliest known (via documentation for most) ancestral > environs. For most that is Ireland despite the good chance that (among the > Scot-Irish& Eng-Irish) the ancestors may have been in Scotland or England > for perhaps 700 or more years previous to migration to Ireland. > > Some may argue the popular belief that in particular M222 formed up in > Ireland, and therefore be no issue; however, we certainly do not know that > with any specificity yet. Susan > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-11/13213010 > 30 > > /From:/ "Irish III DNA"<dna@irishtype3dna.org > <mailto:dna@irishtype3dna.org>> /Subject:/ [DNA] Geographic specificity > /Date:/ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:03:50 +1100 I see FTDNA are about to provide a > map for ancestral origins Dennis Wright > > > > > Dear Dennis Wright, > > With the vast number of records that Family Tree DNA has obtained, we > are in a unique position to begin delivering > something that would normally be possible only after scientific papers > are published: a better level of geographic specificity for > the origin and migration of ancestral lines in more recent times. > > Up until now, Haplogroups were able to only tell one's deep ancestral > origin. However,with the numerous terminal > SNPs that we've discovered and tested over the years, we will soon be > able to provide customers with the history of your population > cluster within the last few hundred years. > > Many Family Tree DNA customers have already submitted geographical > coordinates of their MDKA, or Most Distant > Known Ancestor. Our goal is to offer a new map view with data points for > as many terminal SNPs as possible. The map will also be > enhanced with added features so that as the number of records increase, > we will be able to see a higher level of geographic > specificity. > > This map should be available in a few weeks. It should be quite valuable > for those who don't have any facts about > the ancestral origin of their paternal line and those interested in the > physical spread of their Haplogroup. > > Given that you tested positive for L226, submitting your MDKA geographic > coordinates would substantially help to > enhance the level of specificity and migration history for all that have > tested positive for L226. > > As an example, the map displayed below shows people positive for L21 > (red dots) and M222 (blue dots). One possible > interpretation is that since L21 is ancestral to M222, L21 expanded from > the continent into the British Isles during the LGM (last > glacial maximum) and then the M222 developed, being characteristic of > Northern Ireland. The map clearly shows the largest > concentration of M222 in Northern Ireland, which suggests the expansion > of this group most likely originated from this region. > > Click here to enter the coordinates for your MDKA, and edit the > information at the bottom of the map. > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Having received the referenced email myself I checked out the Wikipedia reference to my husband's DNA. Although his was detailed, it was interesting that our (my father's) M222 was not fleshed out. In any case, I am very interested in how testing is going with existing inhabitants of "Northwest Irish/Lowland Scots." Has anyone commissioned a study of existing inhabitants? My father, having been so close to the modal M222 values and also knowing exactly where his parent were from (NW Ireland), would seem to be an ideal reference. Marie Golden Kerr (James J. Golden) -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 4:13 PM To: dna-r1b1c7; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com; dna@irishtype3dna.org Subject: [R-M222] RootsWeb: GENEALOGY-DNA-L [DNA] Geographic specificity See this announcement posted to Genealogy DNA L @ Rootsweb. This is a good tool, but for the Scot - Irish concerns may be somewhat of a misnomer when considering M222 and other SNPs of prevalence in the two environs in consideration mostly to Ulster. Because of the record loss of the 1920's fire which wiped out most beyond about 75% of the indexes in Ireland, and the poor records in Scotland previous to about the 1700's religious records, those with anecdotal histories of being Scot (in some cases English) planters of Gallowglass migrants into Ulster and remaining until immigrating out must generally give up the environ of the earliest known (via documentation for most) ancestral environs. For most that is Ireland despite the good chance that (among the Scot-Irish & Eng-Irish) the ancestors may have been in Scotland or England for perhaps 700 or more years previous to migration to Ireland. Some may argue the popular belief that in particular M222 formed up in Ireland, and therefore be no issue; however, we certainly do not know that with any specificity yet. Susan http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-11/13213010 30 /From:/ "Irish III DNA" <dna@irishtype3dna.org <mailto:dna@irishtype3dna.org>> /Subject:/ [DNA] Geographic specificity /Date:/ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:03:50 +1100 I see FTDNA are about to provide a map for ancestral origins Dennis Wright Dear Dennis Wright, With the vast number of records that Family Tree DNA has obtained, we are in a unique position to begin delivering something that would normally be possible only after scientific papers are published: a better level of geographic specificity for the origin and migration of ancestral lines in more recent times. Up until now, Haplogroups were able to only tell one's deep ancestral origin. However,with the numerous terminal SNPs that we've discovered and tested over the years, we will soon be able to provide customers with the history of your population cluster within the last few hundred years. Many Family Tree DNA customers have already submitted geographical coordinates of their MDKA, or Most Distant Known Ancestor. Our goal is to offer a new map view with data points for as many terminal SNPs as possible. The map will also be enhanced with added features so that as the number of records increase, we will be able to see a higher level of geographic specificity. This map should be available in a few weeks. It should be quite valuable for those who don't have any facts about the ancestral origin of their paternal line and those interested in the physical spread of their Haplogroup. Given that you tested positive for L226, submitting your MDKA geographic coordinates would substantially help to enhance the level of specificity and migration history for all that have tested positive for L226. As an example, the map displayed below shows people positive for L21 (red dots) and M222 (blue dots). One possible interpretation is that since L21 is ancestral to M222, L21 expanded from the continent into the British Isles during the LGM (last glacial maximum) and then the M222 developed, being characteristic of Northern Ireland. The map clearly shows the largest concentration of M222 in Northern Ireland, which suggests the expansion of this group most likely originated from this region. Click here to enter the coordinates for your MDKA, and edit the information at the bottom of the map. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

See this announcement posted to Genealogy DNA L @ Rootsweb. This is a good tool, but for the Scot - Irish concerns may be somewhat of a misnomer when considering M222 and other SNPs of prevalence in the two environs in consideration mostly to Ulster. Because of the record loss of the 1920's fire which wiped out most beyond about 75% of the indexes in Ireland, and the poor records in Scotland previous to about the 1700's religious records, those with anecdotal histories of being Scot (in some cases English) planters of Gallowglass migrants into Ulster and remaining until immigrating out must generally give up the environ of the earliest known (via documentation for most) ancestral environs. For most that is Ireland despite the good chance that (among the Scot-Irish & Eng-Irish) the ancestors may have been in Scotland or England for perhaps 700 or more years previous to migration to Ireland. Some may argue the popular belief that in particular M222 formed up in Ireland, and therefore be no issue; however, we certainly do not know that with any specificity yet. Susan http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-11/1321301030 /From:/ "Irish III DNA" <dna@irishtype3dna.org <mailto:dna@irishtype3dna.org>> /Subject:/ [DNA] Geographic specificity /Date:/ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:03:50 +1100 I see FTDNA are about to provide a map for ancestral origins Dennis Wright Dear Dennis Wright, With the vast number of records that Family Tree DNA has obtained, we are in a unique position to begin delivering something that would normally be possible only after scientific papers are published: a better level of geographic specificity for the origin and migration of ancestral lines in more recent times. Up until now, Haplogroups were able to only tell one's deep ancestral origin. However,with the numerous terminal SNPs that we've discovered and tested over the years, we will soon be able to provide customers with the history of your population cluster within the last few hundred years. Many Family Tree DNA customers have already submitted geographical coordinates of their MDKA, or Most Distant Known Ancestor. Our goal is to offer a new map view with data points for as many terminal SNPs as possible. The map will also be enhanced with added features so that as the number of records increase, we will be able to see a higher level of geographic specificity. This map should be available in a few weeks. It should be quite valuable for those who don't have any facts about the ancestral origin of their paternal line and those interested in the physical spread of their Haplogroup. Given that you tested positive for L226, submitting your MDKA geographic coordinates would substantially help to enhance the level of specificity and migration history for all that have tested positive for L226. As an example, the map displayed below shows people positive for L21 (red dots) and M222 (blue dots). One possible interpretation is that since L21 is ancestral to M222, L21 expanded from the continent into the British Isles during the LGM (last glacial maximum) and then the M222 developed, being characteristic of Northern Ireland. The map clearly shows the largest concentration of M222 in Northern Ireland, which suggests the expansion of this group most likely originated from this region. Click here to enter the coordinates for your MDKA, and edit the information at the bottom of the map.

I've been working on a chart of my Mac/McAdam lines to post here later. In the meantime, I ran a search at Ysearch on Kit 119699 McAdam that pulled up the 95 markers entered by other surnames that tested to 111 markers. To my surprise I found about ten 111 matches with McGonigal/McGonagill, Megonnigil, and Mc Gonigle. The closest is CESJE at GD 11, which of course doesn't show up at Kit 119699's FTDNA matches page. I've got two more at GD 12, four at GD 13, and one each at GD 14, GD 16, and I think GD 20. There's a Grierson in that group at GD 16, so it looks right now like it's the McGonigals/Megonnigils who are the closest to my lines. I haven't downloaded any of them to the chart yet, but a quick look at CESJE shows that they do share some of the off-modals with my lines--not sure how many. This is what it says at the small (40 members) Megonnigil project website: "Megonnigil" A variant spelling of MacGonigal. Irish (Donegal) and Scottish (Glasgow): Anglicized form of Gaelic Mag Congail, a patronymic from the personal name Conghal, composed of Celtic elements meaning ‘hound’ + ‘valor' derived from the Irish Clan Mac Congail. The principal thing to be noted is their constant association with Co. Donegal. Apart from the adjacent parts of Co. Derry they were very seldom to be found elsewhere. Some of the sept were counted among the warlike followers of O'Donnell; but they were primarily an erenagh family. It is as ecclesiastics they are best known in history. The Annals of Ireland by the Four Masters shows "Mac Gonigal" as early as 1238AD. Interesting from a historical point of view. If anybody discussed this surname here, I wasn't paying any attention. I haven't done much research yet, but it looks like at least the CESJE McGonigals were in southwest Scotland too--to be specific, in the old Tynron parish, which existed from the 16th century until 1975. This area is part of the Nithsdale district that's the native stomping ground for some of the Griersons and Milligans. Matches to my lines keep going back to the Nith Valley! Allene

In a message dated 11/10/2011 10:02:54 A.M. Central Standard Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: Anyone know the origin to Irish M222+ MacAuleys? R1b1c7 Research and Links: I've had a match with a McCally for some time (3 GD at 37 markers). Here's a copy of an email I sent to the McAuley clan: I noticed a section on your web site that mentioned Donegal McCallys (McAuley). Here are a few references: Patent Rolls of James I Pat. 16 James I - 1609 XXX.-13. Inquisition, taken at Liffer in Donegal co. 12 Sep. 7th Jas. I. before the commissioners named in the preceding commission, and the following jury: Aghehoushin Parish Aghehoushin parish, containing in all 7 qrs., whereof 1 qr. is mensal land in the tenure of Mointercally, who pays 13s 4d, and 32 meathers of meal yearly to the bishop, and also 13s 4d out of the bishop's thirds of the tithes, the bishop of Raphoe is both parson and vicar of this parish, and his proxies there is 4s Ir. each from the parson and vicar, in right whereof he receives two thirds of the tithes in kind, the other third being paid to Mointercally, who also pays one third of the church repairs, the bishop pays the remainder, and is to maintain a curate there who has 1 gort of glebe; Census of 1659 - Donegal Inishowen Barony Principal Irish Names O Cally (22) 1665 Hearth Money Rolls Moville Parish Cormick m'Calley of Ballivene Culdaff Parish Donagh m'Cally of Glengal Cormack m'Cally " Hugh m'Cally " Clonca Parish Phelomy m'Cally of Drumcarbet Edmund m'Cally of Ballyknasy Tullaghferne Parish Alla m'Callay of Ballikenny Kilbegs Parish Hugh o'Cally of Kilterny Glencollumkill & Kilcarr Parish Owen m'Cally [no townland] Stranorlar Parish Torlagh m'Cally of Sharoy Mointercally = Muintercally. They were herenaghs of churchlands in Aghehoushin Parish (now Aghanunshin parish (just south of the Inishowen Peninsula on Lough Foyle). I have no idea what their origin might be. My McLaughlin ancestors came from Donegal, near Letterkenny in Donegal. One of my (KA9RY) matches is a McCally (VVKQ7) from Virginia. He matches my own DNA and a lot of other McLaughlins from Donegal and vicinity. A few other surnames match as well, including some Dohertys. Because of this we call the cluster the Donegal cluster. It is not specific to just McLaughlins. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/37marker.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/37marker.htm) I've had a few conversations with this McCally. He thinks his family are Scottish so it's possible the DNA is simply a coincidence. But he is a fairly close match (3 GD at 37 markers) and has some of the typical McLaughlin off modal markers but not all. I just thought I'd pass this along for what it's worth. John McLaughlin

FTDNA have reported a 23/25 between my haplotype and that of a McSorley. Sandy

Anyone know the origin to Irish M222+ MacAuleys?

*****Scottish Gaelic type 1, (Niall of the 9 Hostages)**** This DNA pattern is well-known to DNA researchers as the DNA pattern associated with Niall of the Nine Hostages (N9H), who was High King of Ireland from 376 to 405. Many of the most important Scottish and Irish Chiefs claimed direct-male-line descent from N9H, including the MacAulays of Ardincaple and the McAuleys of Westmeath. Five men in the MacAulay DNA study had this pattern, all of them apparently of Scottish or Scoth-Irish ancestry. D.J. Macaulay, M.P. McCally, and D.J. McCauley had identical DNA results for the 12-marker test. D.J. and M.P. also took the 37-marker test and had 5 differences at the 37-marker level. D.J. and M.P. believe their ancestors are Scottish or Scotch-Irish, but don't yet know which ancestral clan they are from. *The FTDNA Time Predictor estimates that it is 80% likely that D.J. Macaulay and M.P. McCally had a common male ancestor 500 years ago, (I have been contacted by the MacGregor Clan, and we discovered that a few of the McGregors had the same FTDNA-12 pattern as MacAulay SG-type 1*. There are several theories that could explain this and more research should be done in this area.) Because N9H had so many descendants, this DNA pattern might be descended from more than one McCauley Clan. Matthew McCally is researching a possible linkage to some of the native clans of Northern Ireland. *

http://www.clanawley.com/DNA.htm#ResultsStudy

Re: The Great Hunger – Genocide on a Long Fuse Re: Did Martha Washington have Irish-American slaves? A chairde, Scríobh mé ailt nua le déanaí ar na hábhair thuas. / I recently wrote articles on the above topics. Is féidir libh na hailt seo a fháil ag: / You can find these articles at: http://irishtribes.com/articles.html Go mbaine sibh sult astu. / Hope you enjoy them. Le gach dea-mhéin / Best, Jerry Kelly Treibheanna Éireannacha <http://www.irishtribes.com> www.irishtribes.com