I have been thinking about this, but my 67 markers are not close at all. I am wondering if there is any value at 111 markers, or if it would be better to save up for Big Y or another similar test. Sent from my Nokia Lumia phone -----Original Message----- From: "Linda McKee" <[email protected]> Sent: ‎11/‎28/‎2013 5:14 AM To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: [R-M222] 67 Marker Christmas Wish List Give yourself a Genetic Genealogy Christmas Gift.......... ....if you happen to be one of those folks with plenty, plenty matches on the Genetic Distance Tool on your FTDNA Personal Page and you are NOT yet tested on out to the max STRs available from FTDNA as of now....... ......111 markers should be on your personal Christmas Wish List or on your memo pad to do within the next month. No matter your haplogroup on down the road....... ......unless you have a very rare one and if you are rare you will not be one of those in the above category of having tons of matches at 67 markers tested..... ;-) ......so, you really need 111 markers tested to weed out some of those questionable matches at the lower 67-37-25-12 markers tested. For just a bit over $100.00 you can take your 67 markers tested on out to the 111 markers tested and this is a great buy and a wise investment in your genetic genealogy research. Linda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, This is a phrase geneticists like to use but a mathematician wouldn't :-) If we consider that a SNP is expected every 2-3 generations so of course the chances of the same individual producing 24 is minute. 'Unseparated' is a better way of thinking of it IMHO. The specific example you quoted is different- I would call those synonymous. regards Iain > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 17:34:53 +0000 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Revised M222 tree > > Hi Iain, > > Could you try and clarify something, namely the word 'equivalent'. > > Jim's original tree was titled 'M222 and ~ 24 equivalents'. As a > mathematician, I have to say that 'equivalent' means 'is the same as'. So > S675 is equivalent to DF85. To say that M222 is equivalent to for example > S675 seems like a non-sequitur to me. Perhaps we need to know what > 'phylogenically equivalent' means? > > Best, > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy > Sent: 19 November 2013 18:21 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [R-M222] Revised M222 tree > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List > > I have several updates to the M222 tree this evening. Jim Wilson has > provided a list of SNPs which he considers phylogenetically equivalent to > M222 and are (mostly) on the Chromo2 chip. As the list is now too long to > force into a personal name in my tree I have also posted the raw tree > diagram he sent me which primarily shows the top level above and below, so > it is not a replacement for the whole earlier diagram. > > There are three features in his new diagram: > 1. What appears to be a new hg between S474/DF49 and S193/DF23 called S476 > which is not on the ISOGG tree. > 2. The new list of M222 equivalents > 3. A new SNP below M222 called S7073. > > I have moved everything at the root of M222 below S7073 but having not seen > Steve Lominac's raw file yet I can't confirm that he is positive for it. I > am as is Rob McBride too of course. > > The other change to the diagram, which Rob McBride spotted and neither Jim > nor I did is that he is positive for F3952, one of the SNPs we got off Geno > 2.0 which previously only a Mitchell was positive for. I have double checked > with Jim and he reviewed the raw genotype and agrees with this placement. My > checking procedures have been amended accordingly and I have added Mitchell > to the diagram too. > > Upper tree update: > > http://www.kennedydna.com/S474.jpg > > Main tree from M222: > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Give yourself a Genetic Genealogy Christmas Gift.......... ....if you happen to be one of those folks with plenty, plenty matches on the Genetic Distance Tool on your FTDNA Personal Page and you are NOT yet tested on out to the max STRs available from FTDNA as of now....... ......111 markers should be on your personal Christmas Wish List or on your memo pad to do within the next month. No matter your haplogroup on down the road....... ......unless you have a very rare one and if you are rare you will not be one of those in the above category of having tons of matches at 67 markers tested..... ;-) ......so, you really need 111 markers tested to weed out some of those questionable matches at the lower 67-37-25-12 markers tested. For just a bit over $100.00 you can take your 67 markers tested on out to the 111 markers tested and this is a great buy and a wise investment in your genetic genealogy research. Linda

36554.....A A Fergusson M222+ DF85-

'British Mainland'? No such thing in context of Ireland, closest place on 'Mainland' to Ireland is Brittany -Paul (DF41+) Sent from my iPhone > On 27 Samh 2013, at 19:19, "B. Davitt" <[email protected]> wrote: > > I read about this on another forum last week see: > http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1403-L21-Chromo2-tracking-and-results/page2. > All that was said is that liquids could no longer be shipped from The > Republic of Ireland to the British mainland. It doesn't apply to the U.S. > (except in certain states I guess) I returned my kit earlier this month and > they received it on the 11th. > Brenden > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

When sending mail via the post office from Southern Ireland, liquids are no longer allowed to be sent through regular post to mainland UK. So the only way of sending a saliva sample from the Republic of Ireland, i.e. southern Ireland, is through a courier service. I returned my sample to BritainsDNA via UPS. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Question (tuulen) 2. Re: Chromo2 Tests Pending Check List ATTN: Sandy (Linda McKee) 3. Question (B. Davitt) 4. R: Question ([email protected]) 5. Sandy this is the link (Linda McKee) 6. Re: R: Question (tuulen) 7. Question (B. Davitt) 8. Re: Question (tuulen) 9. Re: Question (Susan Hedeen) 10. Re: Which test, if any? (Ed Cannon) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:51:19 -0500 From: tuulen <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]om> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Sandy, I am aware that New York state in the US disallows saliva samples to be sent through the mail, such that NY state residents must go to surrounding states to send their samples. But another member here said that such samples are now no longer accepted in the UK. I am about to place an order with ScotlandsDNA in the UK which requires such saliva samples, and so that possible restriction got my attention. Doug On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Alexander Paterson < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi Doug, > > First I've ever heard of it but I've been occupies with other things > recently. I seriously doubt it though. > > Sandy > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of tuulen > Sent: 21 November 2013 05:06 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [R-M222] Question > > Are saliva samples no longer allowed to be flown/shipped the the UK? > > I am about to submit to ScotlandsDNA Chromo2 test, but that involves a > saliva sample. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:11:35 -0600 From: Linda McKee <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Chromo2 Tests Pending Check List ATTN: Sandy To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sandy, Someone has probably answered this for you but I didn't look 'cause I was happy you asked me a question I could answer ;-) That is Mike's terminology for his R1b-L21 "big" tree he keeps up with all the kits under L21+.......... I will post a link to same if one doesn't show up right away. Linda > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:35:58 -0000 > From: "Alexander Paterson" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Chromo2 Tests Pending Check List > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Linda, > > I'm not familiar with the reference > > 49-2329222-48714 > > What does it mean? > > Sandy > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:19:11 -0600 From: "B. Davitt" <[email protected]> Subject: [R-M222] Question To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]om> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I read about this on another forum last week see: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1403-L21-Chromo2-tracking-and-results/page2 . All that was said is that liquids could no longer be shipped from The Republic of Ireland to the British mainland. It doesn't apply to the U.S. (except in certain states I guess) I returned my kit earlier this month and they received it on the 11th. Brenden ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 19:26:59 +0000 From: [email protected] Subject: [R-M222] R: Question To: [email protected] Message-ID: <408017490-[email protected]b18.c13.bise6.blackberry > Content-Type: text/plain ------Messaggio originale------ Da: B. Davitt Mittente: [email protected] A: [email protected] Rispondi a: [email protected] Oggetto: [R-M222] Question Inviato: 27 nov 2013 14:19 I read about this on another forum last week see: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1403-L21-Chromo2-tracking-and-results/page2 . All that was said is that liquids could no longer be shipped from The Republic of Ireland to the British mainland. It doesn't apply to the U.S. (except in certain states I guess) I returned my kit earlier this month and they received it on the 11th. Brenden ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:27:48 -0600 From: Linda McKee <[email protected]> Subject: [R-M222] Sandy this is the link To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip > Haplotype Data for R1b-L21 All confirmed & suspected R1b-L21 > haplotypes with all subclades including M222, DF49, L513, DF21, Z251, > Z253, Z255, L226, CTS4466, etc. This is on the AllHts tab. The data > comes from public FTDNA project pages, Ysearch, some from posters > blogging the latest results. The 111 STR haplotypes are on the ExtHts > tab. Informational Clades/Varieties, Rates and Locations > tab/worksheets are also included. - M.W. [file is in MS Excel 2010 > .xlsm format, can be read by OpenOffice] > https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:59:24 -0500 From: tuulen <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [R-M222] R: Question To: [email protected], [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]om> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Brenden, Yeah, I got that same confusing message. And so now what do I do? It looks like we should all get on with this window of opportunity before it closes. Doug On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 2:26 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > ------Messaggio originale------ > Da: B. Davitt > Mittente: [email protected] > A: [email protected] > Rispondi a: [email protected] > Oggetto: [R-M222] Question > Inviato: 27 nov 2013 14:19 > > I read about this on another forum last week see: > > http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1403-L21-Chromo2-tracking-and-results/page2 > . > All that was said is that liquids could no longer be shipped from The > Republic of Ireland to the British mainland. It doesn't apply to the U.S. > (except in certain states I guess) I returned my kit earlier this month and > they received it on the 11th. > Brenden > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:13:04 -0600 From: "B. Davitt" <[email protected]> Subject: [R-M222] Question To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]om> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Doug, Yes I do think we should take advantage of the Chromo2 test but that is my opinion and I don't claim to be an expert. I think the Chromo2 would be very useful to those who are DF85 neg. because it would help define all the other branches of M222. But this is my opinion. I personally think that for the $ Chromo2 is the best option right now but after Big Y results start coming in that might all change. Brenden ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 15:30:20 -0500 From: tuulen <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]om> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Brenden, Yeah, technology changes. But I agree with you in that the Chromo2 test specializes in SNP testing, the hot item at this moment. And hey, I am DF85 negative! Doug On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:13 PM, B. Davitt <[email protected]> wrote: > Doug, > Yes I do think we should take advantage of the Chromo2 test but that is my > opinion and I don't claim to be an expert. I think the Chromo2 would be > very useful to those who are DF85 neg. because it would help define all the > other branches of M222. But this is my opinion. I personally think that for > the $ Chromo2 is the best option right now but after Big Y results start > coming in that might all change. > Brenden > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 15:35:33 -0500 From: Susan Hedeen <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question To: [email protected], brenden davitt <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Brendan, I absolutely agree with you. With estimates being as they are, 75% of R-M222 should test out negative for df85, hence regardless of the df85+ results, there is yet a huge sector of R-222 who are in search of their Y history. Chromo2 presently is the only vehicle to test ID'd down stream SNPs not found elsewhere. We do not know what BigY will turn up, and it will be awhile before those assessments will reveal how significant of a venture it may be. Additionally the price of that is about to go up significantly. If those who believe that this expense is too much (and it is hefty), sequencing with other vendors is significantly more. Susan Hedeen On 11/27/2013 3:13 PM, B. Davitt wrote: > Doug, > Yes I do think we should take advantage of the Chromo2 test but that is my > opinion and I don't claim to be an expert. I think the Chromo2 would be > very useful to those who are DF85 neg. because it would help define all the > other branches of M222. But this is my opinion. I personally think that for > the $ Chromo2 is the best option right now but after Big Y results start > coming in that might all change. > Brenden > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 12:41:36 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Cannon <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which test, if any? To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 This is to follow up on further messages from Linda and Doug, which I do appreciate very much. Doug, I did sign up to the Cannon Surname Project and am in the first group there with a number of matches who also trace back by documentary genealogy to my ancestor John Cannon (1712-1763), who was born in Dover, Kent, England (to the best of my knowledge).? I just got notice today of a new match at 67-markers, but whose surname is Milliken.? (Another of my group 1 other-surname matches is David Wilson.) Based on a message to someone else in the DNA-Newbie Yahoo group I went to semargl.me and found some numbers but have not yet been able to check those against the Cannon Surname Project subjects due to traveling to be with my mother and sister for Thanksgiving. I still need to sign up with ysearch.org and also smgf.org (sp? -- the Sorenson website). Ed Cannon - Austin, Texas, USA Doug wrote: "Trust me on this one, please, but any and all of your genetic testing results can and will be appreciated by no less than several members of this M222 group. "However, beyond whatever information FTDNA could supply you with, there also are a number of other strategies which could be employed to further refine your exploration. "To begin with, have you searched for a Cannon family project available at FTDNA? "And then there are a number of other strategies and tricks, too." ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 7, Issue 471 ******************************************

91704....Kelly DF85- Test: CTS8002 ordered

> 104344.....McReynolds....R1b1a2a1a1b4b M173+, M207+, M222+, M269+, > M343+, P25+, DF85-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M18-, M37-, M65-, M73-, > P66-, SRY2627- > > 75251......McHale R1b1a2a1a1b4b M173+, M207+, M222+, M269+, M343+, > P25+, DF85-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M18-, M37-, M65-, M73-, P66-, > SRY2627-

Sorry for the poor terminology Paul. I think the original post said "mainland U.K." which I incorrectly reposted. No offense intended. Brenden

------Messaggio originale------ Da: B. Davitt Mittente: [email protected] A: [email protected] Rispondi a: [email protected] Oggetto: [R-M222] Question Inviato: 27 nov 2013 14:19 I read about this on another forum last week see: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1403-L21-Chromo2-tracking-and-results/page2. All that was said is that liquids could no longer be shipped from The Republic of Ireland to the British mainland. It doesn't apply to the U.S. (except in certain states I guess) I returned my kit earlier this month and they received it on the 11th. Brenden ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Hi Doug, First I've ever heard of it but I've been occupies with other things recently. I seriously doubt it though. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of tuulen Sent: 21 November 2013 05:06 To: [email protected] Subject: [R-M222] Question Are saliva samples no longer allowed to be flown/shipped the the UK? I am about to submit to ScotlandsDNA Chromo2 test, but that involves a saliva sample. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Linda, I'm not familiar with the reference 49-2329222-48714 What does it mean? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Linda McKee Sent: 20 November 2013 15:59 To: [email protected] Subject: [R-M222] Chromo2 Tests Pending Check List Are you pending Chromo2 and not listed below? Please let me know if so. I know a few have received results: Paterson, Conroy, Wilson, McBride, anyone else on the list having rec'd results? f30771 Burns 49-2329222- uas f201623 Callahan 49-2329222- uas fB3060 Early 49-2329222- uas f155225 Ford 49-2329222- uas f235771 McBride 49-2329222- uas fB4058 McFadden 49-2329222- uas f223269 McIlveen 49-2329222- uas f231979 Guinn 49-2329222-44927 f118913 Paterson 49-2329222-48714 f16646 Conroy 49-2329222-48714-A f198682 McNally 49-2329222-55717 f8999 Wilson 49-2329222-55717 f251441 Devitt 49-23292228- uas Thanks for helping me to keep up with this. Linda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hey, Mike, I've a quick question... To preface, we have 20 odd SNPs which are being assessed as equivalents, but do we actually know this yet? The testing pool among them for this assessment is yet quite small. It will grow as Chromo2 results from testing continues. It is going to be an interesting journey...and we may proclaim early on that "yes, it looks like they are equivalent" On the other hand the testing may reveal something unknown to us. And beyond the preliminary estimates for df85 ages, we don't have ages on the rest yet. There could have been a bottleneck. This theme has been bantered around for quite awhile. There are evidences of a couple of fairly significant plagues which extended for more than just a few years that hit France, England, parts of Scotland and Ireland fairly significantly. Couple those with the reported climate down turn about that time which affected the trees and undoubtedly crops and subsequently wild life and live stock causing subsequent food shortages and resulting sickness and disease in addition to also the normal things that affect lineages such as daughters only, etc, and it looks like it could have been the case. The question is then, where were the proliferating downstream SNP bearers at the time of this bottleneck? So far the largest clade divider, df 85+, may affect only 25% of the population, is thus far aging out at not much younger than gross M222 estimates, and Jim represents that several of the SNPs seem (based on the low numbers leading into this assessment) "enriched with Scots" which leads into the reality that the brearers were not on the same Isle. We do not yet know fully what the distribution of any of them are yet . He also mentions England as showing evidence of possibly the start point. Clearly, all of the 20 odd SNPs also are R-M222, but they all do not have + with each other which indicates proliferation and the speculative bottleneck timing of the 500's CE when this climate down turn and these devastating plagues were known to have occurred.doesn't quite jive. Looking forward to the discussions on this. Susan Hedeen Susan Hedeen On 11/27/2013 5:07 PM, Mike W wrote: > It might be good not to think of M222 as the "boss man" but as the "lucky > man". M222 was the lucky SNP to be discovered first. The whole idea of > phylogenetic equivalence is that every M222+ tested so far is positive for > all 20 some odd equivalents, and every many M222- person so far as been > negative for all. We can't tell which SNP is oldest or youngest. We just > stumbled upon M222 first. > > Actually, a side thought is that the true "lucky man" is the Most Recent > Common Ancestors (MRCA) for M222 and its equivalents. Those 20 some > equivalents mean there was a long line of generations where everyone died > out, save one, the MRCA "lucky man". His lineage did something right to > survive during that long bottleneck, before he became extremely prolific. > > Regards, > Mike > > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alexander Paterson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> Thanks. That makes some sense, but I would re-phrase slightly. My guess is >> that 'phylogenetically equivalent' means that they are part of the same >> tree, but further downstream'. So the boss man is M222 and the rest are >> also >> M222, but with other mutations downstream of M222. >> >> Best, >> >> Sandy >> > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Mike, Thanks. That makes some sense, but I would re-phrase slightly. My guess is that 'phylogenetically equivalent' means that they are part of the same tree, but further downstream'. So the boss man is M222 and the rest are also M222, but with other mutations downstream of M222. Best, Sandy -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike W Sent: 27 November 2013 17:43 To: M222 Rootsweb Subject: Re: [R-M222] Revised M222 tree Sandy, ISOGG uses this terminology too. I think the correct full term is "phylogenetically equivalent" and this is used for situations where two physically different SNPs marked the same branch on the Y DNA tree. http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_Glossary.html This is different from what ISOGG calls a synonym. That would be a case where two different SNP labels identify the exact same physical SNP. In these cases, on their tree they use a slash ("/") between SNP labels that are synonyms. Regards, Mike W On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Alexander Paterson < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi Iain, > > Could you try and clarify something, namely the word 'equivalent'. > > Jim's original tree was titled 'M222 and ~ 24 equivalents'. As a > mathematician, I have to say that 'equivalent' means 'is the same as'. > So > S675 is equivalent to DF85. To say that M222 is equivalent to for > example > S675 seems like a non-sequitur to me. Perhaps we need to know what > 'phylogenically equivalent' means? > > Best, > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy > Sent: 19 November 2013 18:21 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [R-M222] Revised M222 tree > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List > > I have several updates to the M222 tree this evening. Jim Wilson has > provided a list of SNPs which he considers phylogenetically equivalent > to > M222 and are (mostly) on the Chromo2 chip. As the list is now too long > to force into a personal name in my tree I have also posted the raw > tree diagram he sent me which primarily shows the top level above and > below, so it is not a replacement for the whole earlier diagram. > > There are three features in his new diagram: > 1. What appears to be a new hg between S474/DF49 and S193/DF23 called > S476 which is not on the ISOGG tree. > 2. The new list of M222 equivalents > 3. A new SNP below M222 called S7073. > > I have moved everything at the root of M222 below S7073 but having not > seen Steve Lominac's raw file yet I can't confirm that he is positive > for it. I am as is Rob McBride too of course. > > The other change to the diagram, which Rob McBride spotted and neither > Jim nor I did is that he is positive for F3952, one of the SNPs we got > off Geno > 2.0 which previously only a Mitchell was positive for. I have double > checked with Jim and he reviewed the raw genotype and agrees with this > placement. > My > checking procedures have been amended accordingly and I have added > Mitchell to the diagram too. > > Upper tree update: > > http://www.kennedydna.com/S474.jpg > > Main tree from M222: > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Iain, Could you try and clarify something, namely the word 'equivalent'. Jim's original tree was titled 'M222 and ~ 24 equivalents'. As a mathematician, I have to say that 'equivalent' means 'is the same as'. So S675 is equivalent to DF85. To say that M222 is equivalent to for example S675 seems like a non-sequitur to me. Perhaps we need to know what 'phylogenically equivalent' means? Best, Sandy -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: 19 November 2013 18:21 To: [email protected] Subject: [R-M222] Revised M222 tree List I have several updates to the M222 tree this evening. Jim Wilson has provided a list of SNPs which he considers phylogenetically equivalent to M222 and are (mostly) on the Chromo2 chip. As the list is now too long to force into a personal name in my tree I have also posted the raw tree diagram he sent me which primarily shows the top level above and below, so it is not a replacement for the whole earlier diagram. There are three features in his new diagram: 1. What appears to be a new hg between S474/DF49 and S193/DF23 called S476 which is not on the ISOGG tree. 2. The new list of M222 equivalents 3. A new SNP below M222 called S7073. I have moved everything at the root of M222 below S7073 but having not seen Steve Lominac's raw file yet I can't confirm that he is positive for it. I am as is Rob McBride too of course. The other change to the diagram, which Rob McBride spotted and neither Jim nor I did is that he is positive for F3952, one of the SNPs we got off Geno 2.0 which previously only a Mitchell was positive for. I have double checked with Jim and he reviewed the raw genotype and agrees with this placement. My checking procedures have been amended accordingly and I have added Mitchell to the diagram too. Upper tree update: http://www.kennedydna.com/S474.jpg Main tree from M222: http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf Iain ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Susan, That is really a question for Dr. Jim Wilson.T hat is what his results are showing. I don't know how widespread the tesitng has been. He might (he does) have access to more data than just our Chromo 2 orders. Still, phylogenetic equivalency is only a state as of a point in time. It only takes one new test to come in to attest one of the SNPs is older or younger. However, the whole concepts of bottlenecks in paternal lineages seems to apply well so we should expect to find a number of branches on the Y DNA tree with multiple SNPs marking them. Regards, Mik W On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 4:57 PM, Susan Hedeen < [email protected]> wrote: > Hey, Mike, I've a quick question... > To preface, we have 20 odd SNPs which are being assessed as equivalents, > but do we actually know this yet? The testing pool among them for this > assessment is yet quite small. It will grow as Chromo2 results from > testing continues. It is going to be an interesting journey...and we > may proclaim early on that "yes, it looks like they are equivalent" On > the other hand the testing may reveal something unknown to us. And > beyond the preliminary estimates for df85 ages, we don't have ages on > the rest yet. > ... > >

Hi Aidan, OK, so from the Republic of Ireland and from the State of New York, USA, liquid samples are not allowed in the mail. I can deal with that, thank you. Doug On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Aidan Byrne <[email protected]>wrote: > When sending mail via the post office from Southern Ireland, liquids are no > longer allowed to be sent through regular post to mainland UK. > > So the only way of sending a saliva sample from the Republic of Ireland, > i.e. southern Ireland, is through a courier service. I returned my sample > to BritainsDNA via UPS. > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Question (tuulen) > 2. Re: Chromo2 Tests Pending Check List ATTN: Sandy (Linda McKee) > 3. Question (B. Davitt) > 4. R: Question ([email protected]) > 5. Sandy this is the link (Linda McKee) > 6. Re: R: Question (tuulen) > 7. Question (B. Davitt) > 8. Re: Question (tuulen) > 9. Re: Question (Susan Hedeen) > 10. Re: Which test, if any? (Ed Cannon) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:51:19 -0500 > From: tuulen <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: > <CABbuToxconDbPR0oOC8bY3v-tgE5gTEK_zvcPQxRmi= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Sandy, > > I am aware that New York state in the US disallows saliva samples to be > sent through the mail, such that NY state residents must go to surrounding > states to send their samples. > > But another member here said that such samples are now no longer accepted > in the UK. > > I am about to place an order with ScotlandsDNA in the UK which requires > such saliva samples, and so that possible restriction got my attention. > > Doug > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Alexander Paterson < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Doug, > > > > First I've ever heard of it but I've been occupies with other things > > recently. I seriously doubt it though. > > > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of tuulen > > Sent: 21 November 2013 05:06 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [R-M222] Question > > > > Are saliva samples no longer allowed to be flown/shipped the the UK? > > > > I am about to submit to ScotlandsDNA Chromo2 test, but that involves a > > saliva sample. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:11:35 -0600 > From: Linda McKee <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Chromo2 Tests Pending Check List ATTN: Sandy > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Sandy, > > Someone has probably answered this for you but I didn't look 'cause I > was happy you asked me a question I could answer ;-) > > That is Mike's terminology for his R1b-L21 "big" tree he keeps up with > all the kits under L21+.......... > > I will post a link to same if one doesn't show up right away. > > Linda > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:35:58 -0000 > > From: "Alexander Paterson" <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Chromo2 Tests Pending Check List > > To: <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > I'm not familiar with the reference > > > > 49-2329222-48714 > > > > What does it mean? > > > > Sandy > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:19:11 -0600 > From: "B. Davitt" <[email protected]> > Subject: [R-M222] Question > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: > <CAHN=gBmiE+== > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I read about this on another forum last week see: > > http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1403-L21-Chromo2-tracking-and-results/page2 > . > All that was said is that liquids could no longer be shipped from The > Republic of Ireland to the British mainland. It doesn't apply to the U.S. > (except in certain states I guess) I returned my kit earlier this month and > they received it on the 11th. > Brenden > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 19:26:59 +0000 > From: [email protected] > Subject: [R-M222] R: Question > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: > > > <408017490-[email protected]b18.c13.bise6.blackberry > > > > Content-Type: text/plain > > ------Messaggio originale------ > Da: B. Davitt > Mittente: [email protected] > A: [email protected] > Rispondi a: [email protected] > Oggetto: [R-M222] Question > Inviato: 27 nov 2013 14:19 > > I read about this on another forum last week see: > > http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1403-L21-Chromo2-tracking-and-results/page2 > . > All that was said is that liquids could no longer be shipped from The > Republic of Ireland to the British mainland. It doesn't apply to the U.S. > (except in certain states I guess) I returned my kit earlier this month and > they received it on the 11th. > Brenden > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:27:48 -0600 > From: Linda McKee <[email protected]> > Subject: [R-M222] Sandy this is the link > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip > > > Haplotype Data for R1b-L21 All confirmed & suspected R1b-L21 > > haplotypes with all subclades including M222, DF49, L513, DF21, Z251, > > Z253, Z255, L226, CTS4466, etc. This is on the AllHts tab. The data > > comes from public FTDNA project pages, Ysearch, some from posters > > blogging the latest results. The 111 STR haplotypes are on the ExtHts > > tab. Informational Clades/Varieties, Rates and Locations > > tab/worksheets are also included. - M.W. [file is in MS Excel 2010 > > .xlsm format, can be read by OpenOffice] > > https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:59:24 -0500 > From: tuulen <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R: Question > To: [email protected], [email protected] > Message-ID: > <CABbuToyymsL=j2NRRjOVfM7YGP3es2TSsv= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Brenden, > > Yeah, I got that same confusing message. And so now what do I do? > > It looks like we should all get on with this window of opportunity before > it closes. > > Doug > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 2:26 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > ------Messaggio originale------ > > Da: B. Davitt > > Mittente: [email protected] > > A: [email protected] > > Rispondi a: [email protected] > > Oggetto: [R-M222] Question > > Inviato: 27 nov 2013 14:19 > > > > I read about this on another forum last week see: > > > > > > http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1403-L21-Chromo2-tracking-and-results/page2 > > . > > All that was said is that liquids could no longer be shipped from The > > Republic of Ireland to the British mainland. It doesn't apply to the U.S. > > (except in certain states I guess) I returned my kit earlier this month > and > > they received it on the 11th. > > Brenden > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:13:04 -0600 > From: "B. Davitt" <[email protected]> > Subject: [R-M222] Question > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: > <CAHN=gBk3AuQSLdgfOqaGc= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Doug, > Yes I do think we should take advantage of the Chromo2 test but that is my > opinion and I don't claim to be an expert. I think the Chromo2 would be > very useful to those who are DF85 neg. because it would help define all the > other branches of M222. But this is my opinion. I personally think that for > the $ Chromo2 is the best option right now but after Big Y results start > coming in that might all change. > Brenden > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 15:30:20 -0500 > From: tuulen <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: > <CABbuTozUy2ZMXozXh1x5-8hS-bf9-LfJ8a1O= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Brenden, > > Yeah, technology changes. But I agree with you in that the Chromo2 test > specializes in SNP testing, the hot item at this moment. And hey, I am > DF85 negative! > > Doug > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:13 PM, B. Davitt <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Doug, > > Yes I do think we should take advantage of the Chromo2 test but that is > my > > opinion and I don't claim to be an expert. I think the Chromo2 would be > > very useful to those who are DF85 neg. because it would help define all > the > > other branches of M222. But this is my opinion. I personally think that > for > > the $ Chromo2 is the best option right now but after Big Y results start > > coming in that might all change. > > Brenden > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 15:35:33 -0500 > From: Susan Hedeen <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question > To: [email protected], brenden davitt <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Brendan, I absolutely agree with you. With estimates being as they are, > 75% of R-M222 should test out negative for df85, hence regardless of the > df85+ results, there is yet a huge sector of R-222 who are in search of > their Y history. Chromo2 presently is the only vehicle to test ID'd down > stream SNPs not found elsewhere. > > We do not know what BigY will turn up, and it will be awhile before > those assessments will reveal how significant of a venture it may be. > Additionally the price of that is about to go up significantly. If > those who believe that this expense is too much (and it is hefty), > sequencing with other vendors is significantly more. Susan Hedeen > > On 11/27/2013 3:13 PM, B. Davitt wrote: > > Doug, > > Yes I do think we should take advantage of the Chromo2 test but that is > my > > opinion and I don't claim to be an expert. I think the Chromo2 would be > > very useful to those who are DF85 neg. because it would help define all > the > > other branches of M222. But this is my opinion. I personally think that > for > > the $ Chromo2 is the best option right now but after Big Y results start > > coming in that might all change. > > Brenden > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 12:41:36 -0800 (PST) > From: Ed Cannon <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which test, if any? > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > This is to follow up on further messages from Linda and Doug, which I do > appreciate very much. > > Doug, I did sign up to the Cannon Surname Project and am in the first > > group there with a number of matches who also trace back by documentary > genealogy to my ancestor John Cannon (1712-1763), who was born in Dover, > Kent, England (to the best of my knowledge).? I just got notice today of > a new match at 67-markers, but whose surname is Milliken.? (Another of > > my group 1 other-surname matches is David Wilson.) > > Based on a message to someone else in the DNA-Newbie Yahoo group I went > to semargl.me and found some numbers but have not yet been able to check > those against the Cannon Surname Project subjects due to traveling to be > with my mother and sister for Thanksgiving. > > I still need to sign up with ysearch.org and also smgf.org (sp? -- the > Sorenson website). > > Ed Cannon - Austin, Texas, USA > > Doug wrote: > > "Trust me on this one, please, but any and all of your genetic testing > results can and will be appreciated by no less than several members of this > M222 group. > > "However, beyond whatever information FTDNA could supply you with, there > also are a number of other strategies which could be employed to further > refine your exploration. > > "To begin with, have you searched for a Cannon family project available at > FTDNA? > > "And then there are a number of other strategies and tricks, too." > > > ------------------------------ > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 7, Issue 471 > ****************************************** > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Ed, Do not be surprised if somebody with a completely different surname genetically matches you. That kind of thing happens all the time in this genetic game. The thing to keep an eye on is how your name might be related to theirs. For instance, my name is Morrison, but how did I get on the Doherty family project? And that sort of thing could happen to you, too. Doug On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Ed Cannon <[email protected]> wrote: > This is to follow up on further messages from Linda and Doug, which I do > appreciate very much. > > Doug, I did sign up to the Cannon Surname Project and am in the first > > group there with a number of matches who also trace back by documentary > genealogy to my ancestor John Cannon (1712-1763), who was born in Dover, > Kent, England (to the best of my knowledge). I just got notice today of > a new match at 67-markers, but whose surname is Milliken. (Another of > > my group 1 other-surname matches is David Wilson.) > > Based on a message to someone else in the DNA-Newbie Yahoo group I went > to semargl.me and found some numbers but have not yet been able to check > those against the Cannon Surname Project subjects due to traveling to be > with my mother and sister for Thanksgiving. > > I still need to sign up with ysearch.org and also smgf.org (sp? -- the > Sorenson website). > > > Ed Cannon - Austin, Texas, USA > > > Doug wrote: > > "Trust me on this one, please, but any and all of your genetic testing > results can and will be appreciated by no less than several members of this > M222 group. > > "However, beyond whatever information FTDNA could supply you with, there > also are a number of other strategies which could be employed to further > refine your exploration. > > "To begin with, have you searched for a Cannon family project available at > FTDNA? > > "And then there are a number of other strategies and tricks, too." > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Sandy, the 49-239222-48714 doesn't have any intrinsic meaning. It is an arbitrary label I assign to an STR signature based cluster or what I call a speculative variety. Some people assign ethnic or origin labels but I find sometimes things don't turn out like you think so I try to avoid origins and the like when labeling varieties. There is some method to this. I assign the labels so that sorting and selecting within the spreadsheet will put one variety side by side with another that appears related to. In this case 49 is DF49, 23 is DF23, 29 is Z2961, 222 is M222 and 48714 is DYS487=14. In this particular group I've also recently added an 8 after the 222 because one section of these appear to be DF85 (8 for DF85). Mike > From: "Alexander Paterson" <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Chromo2 Tests Pending Check List > > To: <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > I'm not familiar with the reference > > > > 49-2329222-48714 > > > > What does it mean? > > > > Sandy > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

It might be good not to think of M222 as the "boss man" but as the "lucky man". M222 was the lucky SNP to be discovered first. The whole idea of phylogenetic equivalence is that every M222+ tested so far is positive for all 20 some odd equivalents, and every many M222- person so far as been negative for all. We can't tell which SNP is oldest or youngest. We just stumbled upon M222 first. Actually, a side thought is that the true "lucky man" is the Most Recent Common Ancestors (MRCA) for M222 and its equivalents. Those 20 some equivalents mean there was a long line of generations where everyone died out, save one, the MRCA "lucky man". His lineage did something right to survive during that long bottleneck, before he became extremely prolific. Regards, Mike On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alexander Paterson < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Thanks. That makes some sense, but I would re-phrase slightly. My guess is > that 'phylogenetically equivalent' means that they are part of the same > tree, but further downstream'. So the boss man is M222 and the rest are > also > M222, but with other mutations downstream of M222. > > Best, > > Sandy >