Brett, Congratulations on the results. Regarding FTDNA did you subsequently upgrade to higher number of STR's or are you still at 37 STR markers? As you mention Ward is an "occupational name" in an Irish context (son of the Poet). "Bh" is prononuced as W/V in Irish, thence the Irish pronunciation of Bháird angliscation to Ward. Here's what Woulfe had in his 1923 book: -- Mac an BHÁIRD—VII<http://www.libraryireland.com/names/synopsis-types-surnames.php>—MacAward, MacWard, Ward; 'son of the bard' (Irish 'bárd'); a very common surname; found in every county in Ireland, but especially in Donegal, Galway and Dublin. Three families of the name are known to history: (1) Mac an Bháird of Tirconnell, who were bards to the O'Donnells; (2) Mac an Bháird of Ui Maine <http://www.libraryireland.com/names/irishclans/ui-maine.php>, who were bards to the O'Kellys, and were seated at Muine Chasain and Ballymacward; and (3) Mac an Bháird of Oriel. -- Regards -Paul (DF41+) On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 8:58 AM, Brett Ward <bhward@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hello all, my name is Brett Ward and I reside in Sydney, Australia. > > Mac a Bhaird (being Ward pre anglicised) as many of you will appreciate is > an Irish occupational name (Bard, historian) and very old and reasonably > prolific throughout Ireland. I can trace my family to about 1800 in > Abington, County Limerick but the surname has its highest frequency in > traditional ancestral locations within Galway and Tyrone. Ward is also a > separate and unrelated English surname, but clearly causes much confusion. > > I have been watching DNA developments on this mailing list tentatively > ever since having 37 STR markers mapped. This led me to test with Britains > DNA (Ethnoancestry) a few years ago to ascertain that I was M222+. This > then led me to look into Irish Ward DNA results and I would suggest that > around 40-50% of Wards that I have seen are M222+. This may be little more > than random for descendants from those West and North Western areas within > Ireland. > > I have also recently just received my Chromo2 results from Britains DNA > and am awaiting the raw file to be uploaded. They have a genetic signature > page though that shows my 300 plus ‘positives’. > > Within Britains DNA tree, the lowest level I have achieved is S660, but I > have aspirations! I have had a look at some trees, such as that to be found > on the Kennedy website but do not seem to be able to find a lower level. > > As the song goes, where do I begin? Is there a useful guide somewhere for > me to come up to speed quickly or some websites that I should hit first? I > am very interested in pushing things along from a Ward angle. > > Thank you for reading and look forward to being a bit more active than the > last few years, but that won’t be difficult. > > Brett > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Alright, thanks. I've sent an inquiry to FTDNA. I'll let you know what I get back. Kyle On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 10:37 PM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > Ancestral is ancestral. There may be a reporting glitch-- and it isn't > unheard of. > This is what I'd do...make note of the ancestral and the derived > states-- you should be able to copy paste that from Ybrowse. > Copy paste what the positive variant says > Copy paste what the raw data says--you have a copy? > Take it to FTDNA for clarification. Make them explain it. Susan > > On 4/27/2014 7:53 PM, Kyle DePew wrote: > > Thanks. So maybe my Z70+ is a mistake? Or just a difference of opinion > on > > which is ancestral? > > > > Kyle > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Michael Farrell <kullfarr@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> According to Ybrowse, C is ancestral, T is derived. > >> > >> > >> > http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15424632;end=15424632;name=Z70;class=Sequence;feature_id=34062;db_id=chrY%3Adatabase > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> On Apr 27, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Kyle DePew <kddepew@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Can anyone tell me what the ancestral and derived values for Z70 are? > My > >>> Geno 2 results say I have a "C" allele at that position. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The following are now showing in the YSEQ catalogue although I haven't had confirmation the primers have arrived, presumably you can order them though. A224 A225 A259 A260 FGC4133 There is no sign of A223 yet though. Iain

Brett, whilst you await your full raw data you can copy and paste you genetic signature list and email it to myself and Susan Hedeen. Then you can get an extra pair of eyes on it. But a fair number of folk stop at S660/S659 so that might well be it. When we have confirmed where you are we can advise on where next. There isn't really a website to look at other than the tree you saw as things are changing almost daily. If you are S660 as your terminal SNP there are some brand new markers about to hit the shop, not quite ready yet though. Iain > From: bhward@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 17:58:04 +1000 > Subject: [R-M222] Ward surname and Chromo2 > > Hello all, my name is Brett Ward and I reside in Sydney, Australia. > > Mac a Bhaird (being Ward pre anglicised) as many of you will appreciate is an Irish occupational name (Bard, historian) and very old and reasonably prolific throughout Ireland. I can trace my family to about 1800 in Abington, County Limerick but the surname has its highest frequency in traditional ancestral locations within Galway and Tyrone. Ward is also a separate and unrelated English surname, but clearly causes much confusion. > > I have been watching DNA developments on this mailing list tentatively ever since having 37 STR markers mapped. This led me to test with Britains DNA (Ethnoancestry) a few years ago to ascertain that I was M222+. This then led me to look into Irish Ward DNA results and I would suggest that around 40-50% of Wards that I have seen are M222+. This may be little more than random for descendants from those West and North Western areas within Ireland. > > I have also recently just received my Chromo2 results from Britains DNA and am awaiting the raw file to be uploaded. They have a genetic signature page though that shows my 300 plus ‘positives’. > > Within Britains DNA tree, the lowest level I have achieved is S660, but I have aspirations! I have had a look at some trees, such as that to be found on the Kennedy website but do not seem to be able to find a lower level. > > As the song goes, where do I begin? Is there a useful guide somewhere for me to come up to speed quickly or some websites that I should hit first? I am very interested in pushing things along from a Ward angle. > > Thank you for reading and look forward to being a bit more active than the last few years, but that won’t be difficult. > > Brett > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

_"William Penn said his ancestor, JOHN TUDOR, came from Wales to England"_ (http://genforum.genealogy.com/todd/messages/6746.html) SAW-MILL.— A saw-mill was built on the Christiana Creek by William McCONAUGHEY in 1841. The mill is a frame building, eighteen by ninety feet, with a capacity of two thousand feet per day. For many years it was a merchant mill, and shipped large quantities of lumber. Eight men were employed in operating it. During the past five years timber has become scarce in this neighborhood, and the mill has only been used for custom-work. Mr. McConaughey is yet the owner. * * * from Big Elk Creek to the reservoir, and $100,000 were spent upon ... You seat under noe body; you have noe Warrant from Penn nor my Lord; ... was James JAMES, who selected Iron Hill and northward to the Christiana Creek, .... the furnace was situated is now (1888) owned by William McCONAUGHEY. * _"William Penn said his ancestor, JOHN TUDOR, came from Wales ..._ (http://genforum.genealogy.com/todd/messages/6746.html) genforum.genealogy.com/todd/messages/6746.html - _Similar_ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=Christian a+Creek+penn+mcconeyhey&q=related:genforum.genealogy.com/todd/messages/6746. html+Christiana+Creek+penn+mcconeyhey) to "William Penn said his ancestor, JOHN TUDOR, came from Wales ... Feb 24, 2013 ... The Family of William Penn: Founder of Pennsylvania, Ancestry and Descendants ..... was situated is now (1888) owned by William McCONAUGHEY. ..... In 1832 a bridge was needed over Christiana Creek, near Cooch's Mill. * _University of Delaware: WILBUR T. WILSON MAP ... - Library_ (http://www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/findaids/wilson/maplist/maps02.htm) www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/findaids/wilson/maplist/maps02.htm ... Margaret St., Bogy Run, Persimmon Run, Christiana Creek, Pennsylvania .... of Alfred Heiser, George G. Kerr, George McConaughey and the Bower estate. * _University of Delaware: WILBUR T. WILSON MAP ... - ..._ (http://www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/findaids/wilson/maplist/maps05.htm) www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/findaids/wilson/maplist/maps05.htm 259 Map of property at the intersection of North St. and the Creek Road, ... Property of Dr. Bayard Murray, Wm. R. Wilson, David McConaughey, Herbert J. ... by John R. Lynam to Krebbs showing Pennsylvania R.R. [ and Christiana Creek? ] ... _]_ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=moreResultFrom.search&v_t=client_searchbox&q=site:www.lib.udel.edu+Christiana+Creek+penn+mcconeyhey)

I think you need to plan quite smartly, the sale price at yseq runs until Fathers Day and their tests *usually* take about 3-4 weeks to return so you will probably squeeze in two rounds before the price goes back up. So one idea would be to do the gambling on S7814 then if that fails go back up to the big branches as Susan had outlined. But its really up to you. There has been quite a lot of talk about the history of S7814 but a lot of it is based on singleton surname results. The 'worst' place to be is S588 as that's the bushiest part of the tree to refine. If you end up there and have to resolve it SNP by SNP you would probably have been better off using Chromo2. Iain > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 17:51:35 -0700 > From: cecinit2007@gmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Advice on further testing > > On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Michael Helm <cecinit2007@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > is S7814 an accessible SNP test, > > > I see it in yseq's catalog so a test there is available - good gamble? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ancestral is ancestral. There may be a reporting glitch-- and it isn't unheard of. This is what I'd do...make note of the ancestral and the derived states-- you should be able to copy paste that from Ybrowse. Copy paste what the positive variant says Copy paste what the raw data says--you have a copy? Take it to FTDNA for clarification. Make them explain it. Susan On 4/27/2014 7:53 PM, Kyle DePew wrote: > Thanks. So maybe my Z70+ is a mistake? Or just a difference of opinion on > which is ancestral? > > Kyle > > > On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Michael Farrell <kullfarr@gmail.com> wrote: > >> According to Ybrowse, C is ancestral, T is derived. >> >> >> http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15424632;end=15424632;name=Z70;class=Sequence;feature_id=34062;db_id=chrY%3Adatabase >> >> Mike >> >> On Apr 27, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Kyle DePew <kddepew@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Can anyone tell me what the ancestral and derived values for Z70 are? My >>> Geno 2 results say I have a "C" allele at that position. >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi, Richard, S7814 is at YSEQ and as a SNP up-stream of F1265. It is as good a gamble as any although statistically the numbers aren't there yet. Undoubtedly some of that is due to who has and hasn't tested. Single SNP testing is kind of like rolling the dice. We've had lots of surprises with this testing; I think once the groups continue to be subdivided we will be able to better utilize the STRs as a guide, but presently except in a few instances it's been a proverbial crap shoot. Sorry about that...you did mention gamble. This is why I suggested what I did on list earlier...odds are statistically one of those three, DF105, S588 (S7814's dad) have good odds of being positive. If none then there is up-stream; any of the 3 then there is branch direction although it is still hunt and peck regardless. Susan On 4/27/2014 8:51 PM, Michael Helm wrote: > On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Michael Helm <cecinit2007@gmail.com> wrote: >> is S7814 an accessible SNP test, >> > I see it in yseq's catalog so a test there is available - good gamble? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

No I didn't mention back mutations. As far as I can see every source (not counting FTDNA!) is in agreement that C is the ancestral value for CTS12173 and that is what I have in my old Geno file and my BAM file and so does everyone else I've looked at so far. For example Bob Degnen's BAM file shows a C at that position and that conflicts with his project display for the SNP that has him as derived. Name: CTS12173 Type: snp Source: point Position: ChrY:28505799..28505799 (+ strand) Length: 1 ISOGG_haplogroup: not listed YCC_haplogroup: not listed allele_anc: C allele_der: A Homo_sapiens > chromosome:GRCh37:Y:28505799:28505799:1 Homo_sapiens 1 C 1 VENTER 1 . 1 WATSON 1 . 1 Degnen: Total count: 16 A : 0 C : 16 (100%, 16+, 0- ) G : 0 T : 0 N : 0 --------------- project display: CTS12173+ > From: kullfarr@gmail.com > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 12:49:20 -0700 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] The 24 FTDNA SNPs below M222; Locations proposed for PF3292 and Z70, and rough locations for others. > > Yes, I can see how a revertant might be mistaken for the ancestral, under some circumstances. Is that the case for CTS12173 here, i.e. is the derived CTS12173 under M222 a revertant (C>A>C)? > > Mike > > > On Apr 27, 2014, at 12:28 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Sometimes there is confusion about what the ancestral value is - the PF2640 being a good example where hg19 conflicts with the information posted the other day; IGV and YFull are both reporting me as ancestral. > > One thing to bear in mind is that the human reference genome is based on a mixture of people rather than someone at the root of the Y tree. So the value in href might be derived. > > > > By way of example, we all descend from hg A1 which is defined by L985. That's an A->C transition at 7374927. Now look at GRCh37: > > http://www.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Location/SequenceAlignment?db=core;g=ENSG00000114374;r=Y:7374927-7374927 > > > > and it shows a 'C'. IGV shows me as C and ancestral. But I'm actually derived of course. > > I have also noted a couple of times when IGV and YFull report conflicting ancestral reference values. > > > > Iain > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sometimes there is confusion about what the ancestral value is - the PF2640 being a good example where hg19 conflicts with the information posted the other day; IGV and YFull are both reporting me as ancestral. One thing to bear in mind is that the human reference genome is based on a mixture of people rather than someone at the root of the Y tree. So the value in href might be derived. By way of example, we all descend from hg A1 which is defined by L985. That's an A->C transition at 7374927. Now look at GRCh37: http://www.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Location/SequenceAlignment?db=core;g=ENSG00000114374;r=Y:7374927-7374927 and it shows a 'C'. IGV shows me as C and ancestral. But I'm actually derived of course. I have also noted a couple of times when IGV and YFull report conflicting ancestral reference values. Iain > From: kullfarr@gmail.com > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:35:46 -0700 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] The 24 FTDNA SNPs below M222; Locations proposed for PF3292 and Z70, and rough locations for others. > > Hello, > > I am the Farrell who FTDNA has now listed as CTS12173+ (N112356). > > However, I think perhaps the rather random assortment of men (based on their previous snp assignments) that have now been identified as CTS12173+ may be due to FTDNA/Geno2 misidentifying some of us. I looked up CTS12173 on YBrowse today and found that C is the ancestral nucleotide at this position and A is derived, which is odd since my Geno2 raw data, both the original file and the file I downloaded yesterday, indicates that I have the ancestral C nucleotide at this position. I’m not sure how this kind of mistake might happen but it seems fairly clear that I am not CTS12173+. > > Mike > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks. So maybe my Z70+ is a mistake? Or just a difference of opinion on which is ancestral? Kyle On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Michael Farrell <kullfarr@gmail.com> wrote: > According to Ybrowse, C is ancestral, T is derived. > > > http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15424632;end=15424632;name=Z70;class=Sequence;feature_id=34062;db_id=chrY%3Adatabase > > Mike > > On Apr 27, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Kyle DePew <kddepew@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Can anyone tell me what the ancestral and derived values for Z70 are? My > > Geno 2 results say I have a "C" allele at that position. > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Can anyone tell me what the ancestral and derived values for Z70 are? My Geno 2 results say I have a "C" allele at that position. On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > Could well be! > > On 4/27/2014 4:37 PM, Michael Farrell wrote: > > OK, then it’s as I initially posited. FTDNA/Geno2 has erred in > identifying me as CTS12173+, as I suspected. > > > > Mike > > > > On Apr 27, 2014, at 1:28 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> No I didn't mention back mutations. As far as I can see every source > (not counting FTDNA!) is in agreement that C is the ancestral value for > CTS12173 and that is what I have in my old Geno file and my BAM file and so > does everyone else I've looked at so far. For example Bob Degnen's BAM file > shows a C at that position and that conflicts with his project display for > the SNP that has him as derived. > >> > >> Name: CTS12173 Type: snp Source: point Position: > ChrY:28505799..28505799 (+ strand) Length: 1 ISOGG_haplogroup: not > listed YCC_haplogroup: not listed allele_anc: C allele_der: A > >> > >> Homo_sapiens > > >> chromosome:GRCh37:Y:28505799:28505799:1 > >> > >> > >> > >> Homo_sapiens 1 C > > 1 > >> VENTER 1 . > > 1 > >> WATSON 1 . > > 1 > >> > >> Degnen: > >> Total count: 16 > >> A : 0 > >> C : 16 (100%, 16+, 0- ) > >> G : 0 > >> T : 0 > >> N : 0 > >> --------------- > >> > >> project display: CTS12173+ > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Michael Helm <cecinit2007@gmail.com> wrote: > > is S7814 an accessible SNP test, > I see it in yseq's catalog so a test there is available - good gamble?

Ok, now looking thru the tree I see the path you're recommending .... I notice that on the far left under "S7814" you all already have a "Male Donnelly" ... Donnellys have been pretty good matches at FTDNA - is S7814 an accessible SNP test, & if so should I just gamble on that one & skip the intervening ones? (If so I might recommend it to someone else - I know one of our Donnelly matches personally, & altho we have no paper trail to kinship the Y match is pretty close.) On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 9:50 AM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com>wrote: > That is the best one by far ;-) > > All the latest research there! > > Iain > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 09:41:42 -0700 > > From: cecinit2007@gmail.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Advice on further testing > > > > Is there a good map of the sub tree of SNPs that > > I'm going to work thru? Is this it? > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > > > I'm inclined to do what I can do w/ FTDNA 1st > > & negotiate with my uncle about another test, but > > I should probably get an idea of what the sub tree looks like. > > > > Thanks for all the help! > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

That is the best one by far ;-) All the latest research there! Iain > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 09:41:42 -0700 > From: cecinit2007@gmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Advice on further testing > > Is there a good map of the sub tree of SNPs that > I'm going to work thru? Is this it? > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > I'm inclined to do what I can do w/ FTDNA 1st > & negotiate with my uncle about another test, but > I should probably get an idea of what the sub tree looks like. > > Thanks for all the help! > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Could well be! On 4/27/2014 4:37 PM, Michael Farrell wrote: > OK, then it’s as I initially posited. FTDNA/Geno2 has erred in identifying me as CTS12173+, as I suspected. > > Mike > > On Apr 27, 2014, at 1:28 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> No I didn't mention back mutations. As far as I can see every source (not counting FTDNA!) is in agreement that C is the ancestral value for CTS12173 and that is what I have in my old Geno file and my BAM file and so does everyone else I've looked at so far. For example Bob Degnen's BAM file shows a C at that position and that conflicts with his project display for the SNP that has him as derived. >> >> Name: CTS12173 Type: snp Source: point Position: ChrY:28505799..28505799 (+ strand) Length: 1 ISOGG_haplogroup: not listed YCC_haplogroup: not listed allele_anc: C allele_der: A >> >> Homo_sapiens > >> chromosome:GRCh37:Y:28505799:28505799:1 >> >> >> >> Homo_sapiens 1 C 1 >> VENTER 1 . 1 >> WATSON 1 . 1 >> >> Degnen: >> Total count: 16 >> A : 0 >> C : 16 (100%, 16+, 0- ) >> G : 0 >> T : 0 >> N : 0 >> --------------- >> >> project display: CTS12173+ >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

According to Ybrowse, C is ancestral, T is derived. http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=15424632;end=15424632;name=Z70;class=Sequence;feature_id=34062;db_id=chrY%3Adatabase Mike On Apr 27, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Kyle DePew <kddepew@gmail.com> wrote: > Can anyone tell me what the ancestral and derived values for Z70 are? My > Geno 2 results say I have a "C" allele at that position. > >

In addition to Iain's remarks, let me add that there were calls in both Geno2 and Chromo2 that seemed to make NO sense. There are several possibilities... 1. Being a back mutation that is very rare but does happen...if something like this was the case one could expect to see the same value for that SNP in a linear lineage since the Y is inherited from father to son even if it may be different among others. Like I said, though, back mutations are rare. 2. The second and most likely possibility that the Illumina technology being used by both scanning arrays isn't interpreting the data correctly. A similar issue seems to be the case with sequencing technology to some extent as well for slightly different reasons (the Illumina technology although different technology is used for sequencing processes). 3. Some SNPs apparently for what ever reason behave more like STRs. Some speculate that these that behave this way aren't truly SNPs. I wouldn't know. Jim Wilson is an accomplished and professionally respected geneticist and he has represented that certain SNPs that are truly SNPs do not behave as we expect they should and used the phrase specifically "behave more like STRs" In all circumstances above, validating the information with Sanger technology for the most part settles the call, and if the call is truly correct and conflicting with what is expected then the geneticist can interpret the reason, generally. IMCO Geno2 has had its issues that have not been addressed in the same manner that BISDNA addressed seemingly the same issues with Chromo2. I cannot speculate FDDNA has or hasn't done to mitigate the observational information that was forwarded to them; however it seems that the variable calls continue. Susan On 4/27/2014 3:28 PM, Iain Kennedy wrote: > Sometimes there is confusion about what the ancestral value is - the PF2640 being a good example where hg19 conflicts with the information posted the other day; IGV and YFull are both reporting me as ancestral. > One thing to bear in mind is that the human reference genome is based on a mixture of people rather than someone at the root of the Y tree. So the value in href might be derived. > > By way of example, we all descend from hg A1 which is defined by L985. That's an A->C transition at 7374927. Now look at GRCh37: > http://www.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Location/SequenceAlignment?db=core;g=ENSG00000114374;r=Y:7374927-7374927 > > and it shows a 'C'. IGV shows me as C and ancestral. But I'm actually derived of course. > I have also noted a couple of times when IGV and YFull report conflicting ancestral reference values. > > Iain > > > > > >> From: kullfarr@gmail.com >> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:35:46 -0700 >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The 24 FTDNA SNPs below M222; Locations proposed for PF3292 and Z70, and rough locations for others. >> >> Hello, >> >> I am the Farrell who FTDNA has now listed as CTS12173+ (N112356). >> >> However, I think perhaps the rather random assortment of men (based on their previous snp assignments) that have now been identified as CTS12173+ may be due to FTDNA/Geno2 misidentifying some of us. I looked up CTS12173 on YBrowse today and found that C is the ancestral nucleotide at this position and A is derived, which is odd since my Geno2 raw data, both the original file and the file I downloaded yesterday, indicates that I have the ancestral C nucleotide at this position. I’m not sure how this kind of mistake might happen but it seems fairly clear that I am not CTS12173+. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

OK, then it’s as I initially posited. FTDNA/Geno2 has erred in identifying me as CTS12173+, as I suspected. Mike On Apr 27, 2014, at 1:28 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > No I didn't mention back mutations. As far as I can see every source (not counting FTDNA!) is in agreement that C is the ancestral value for CTS12173 and that is what I have in my old Geno file and my BAM file and so does everyone else I've looked at so far. For example Bob Degnen's BAM file shows a C at that position and that conflicts with his project display for the SNP that has him as derived. > > Name: CTS12173 Type: snp Source: point Position: ChrY:28505799..28505799 (+ strand) Length: 1 ISOGG_haplogroup: not listed YCC_haplogroup: not listed allele_anc: C allele_der: A > > Homo_sapiens > > chromosome:GRCh37:Y:28505799:28505799:1 > > > > Homo_sapiens 1 C 1 > VENTER 1 . 1 > WATSON 1 . 1 > > Degnen: > Total count: 16 > A : 0 > C : 16 (100%, 16+, 0- ) > G : 0 > T : 0 > N : 0 > --------------- > > project display: CTS12173+ > > > >

Yes, I can see how a revertant might be mistaken for the ancestral, under some circumstances. Is that the case for CTS12173 here, i.e. is the derived CTS12173 under M222 a revertant (C>A>C)? Mike On Apr 27, 2014, at 12:28 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > Sometimes there is confusion about what the ancestral value is - the PF2640 being a good example where hg19 conflicts with the information posted the other day; IGV and YFull are both reporting me as ancestral. > One thing to bear in mind is that the human reference genome is based on a mixture of people rather than someone at the root of the Y tree. So the value in href might be derived. > > By way of example, we all descend from hg A1 which is defined by L985. That's an A->C transition at 7374927. Now look at GRCh37: > http://www.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Location/SequenceAlignment?db=core;g=ENSG00000114374;r=Y:7374927-7374927 > > and it shows a 'C'. IGV shows me as C and ancestral. But I'm actually derived of course. > I have also noted a couple of times when IGV and YFull report conflicting ancestral reference values. > > Iain