>From - Mike Disbrow, listowner A couple of years ago I started uploading the biography of Major General John Disbrowe (written by one of his descendants, the late Harold B. Disbrowe of London, Ontario) to our Disbrow Family Web Site. I got as far as Chapter Nine and left off. No excuses, just got sidetracked and didn't get back to it. Well, I've finally gotten back to it and today finished uploading the last few chapters. So if you're interested in reading about this noted man - brother-in-law and confidante to Oliver Cromwell, The Lord Protector - just click this link and read away. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/5853/Disbrowe/intro.html I plan on having the above book, as well as some additional materials on John Disbrowe, available on CD in the near future. I'll let you all know about that when it's ready. Mike

Here are the latest five entries in the Disbrow Guest book: Your Name : Bette Galcik Your e-mail : Bette@Galcik.com Place of residence : philadelphia,PA Todays date : 4/18/03 Comment : Hi, my mom was Gladys Disbrow, she had 3 brothers, Fred, Bill, and Ray. And 1 sister,Florence.Their parents were,Charles Frederick, and Sadie {nee Crocomb} -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Name : ann ellmes Your e-mail : ann@ntlworld.com Place of residence : berkshire england Todays date : 14.4.03 Comment : I am new to genealogy. I am trying to find information about the Disbrow connection. I have found John Disbrow married to Abigail Adams, but have not been able to find information on John parents John Disbrow and Alice Webb. Any help would be great -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Name : Jack Disbrow Your e-mail : jack.disbrow@alliancels.com Place of residence : Marianna, FL Todays date : 4/9/03 Comment : I am a descendant of Erastus Disbrow. He moved to Wisconsin in the mid 1850s and we have a large extended family in that area. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Name : Donald Mathison Your e-mail : dmathi@aol.com Place of residence : Massachusetts Todays date : 4-9-2003 Comment : Does anyone have any information about Elizabeth Pell, b. May 1732, who married Henry Disbrow, b. Mamaroneck NY l730/1732? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Name : Carolyn C Your e-mail : ccc6400@yahoo.com Place of residence : Colorado Todays date : April 8, 2003 Comment : I have enjoyed this site for several years. My maternal Grandmother, Ruth Henrietta Disbrow Shermon is directly down from Mercy/Thomas Disbrow To view earlier entries in the Guestbook, or to post your own entry, go to the Disbrow Family web site at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/5853 The Guestbook links are at the bottom of the home page.

>From - Mike Disbrow, listowner Subject - Disbrow guest book at website now empty Just to let you all know today I archived all the older postings in the guestbook, so there is room for you to add your entry if you've been trying to do so and couldn't because the guestbook was full. You can still view all the older entries by accessing them from the links at the bottom of the index page of the Disbrow Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/5853/

>From - Mike Disbrow, list owner Subject - availability of Thomas Disbrow books and CDs I've just finished putting Part Two of Thomas Disbrow Descendants on CD, so both volumes are now available that way. I also have about 15 hardcover copies of Part Two, for which I've lowered the price to $20 plus postage. For those of you who may not know about these books, here is a description of them: The Descendants of Thomas & Mercy (Holbridge) Disbrow Compiled by Michael S. Disbrow Thomas Disbrow, progenitor of a large number of descendants in the U. S. and Canada, was a resident of Compo, the western part of Fairfield, Connecticut, and died there in 1707. His wife was the widow, Mercy (Holbridge) Nichols, by whom Thomas had one son, named Thomas Jr. Thomas Jr. married Abigail Godwin and was the father of seven children, five sons and two daughters, each of whom married and had families. These two volumes trace many lines of the descendants of Thomas and Mercy Disbrow down through, in some cases, the thirteenth generation. They were assembled using many original sources, including town and county records, cemetery inscriptions, census and military records, probate files, published histories, and the compiled research results of scores of Thomas's and Mercy's descendants. Part 1, originally published in 1992 (revised and republished in 1996) starts out with a chapter on the Desborough surname and its origins and early records in England. We then briefly examine the records of the earliest persons of our surname to have come to the New World and what we know about them. After these opening chapters the book gets into what is known of our ancestor, Thomas Disbrow, and delves into some of the possibilities concerning his origins. Transcripts of Thomas's probate records are included. The next chapter concerns Mercy (Holbridge) Disbrow, her early life, and the tragic events of her imprisonment and court trial on charges of practicing witchcraft, which took place in Fairfield in 1692 (the same year as the infamous Salem trials). Included are transcripts of some of the original testimony from the trial. The following chapter on Thomas Disbrow, Jr., includes a floor plan of the old Greens Farms church, showing the Thomas Disbrow family pew, probate r! ecords, and a map of the distribution of Thomas's estate among his children and heirs. Each chapter from this point on includes one generation of the Disbrow descendants. The children of Thomas Disbrow, Jr., comprise the third generation, their children the fourth generation, and so forth. This volume lists the first six generations of descendants. The information that is included on each person varies greatly depending on how much we could find out from original records, or from records of their descendants. The dates and the places of birth, death, and marriage are included for most of them, and also the same data for their spouse(s). A list of their children follows, with a numbering system that allows you to follow the children from one generation to the next. Other types of information that the book includes are: census data, military data, residences and removals, land records, gravestone inscriptions, wills, obituaries, and any other type of informative data we could find. Each family is individually referenced and the book has a complete all-name index! . Hardcover on acid-free paper. 352 pages. [Availability: The hardcover edition of Part One is sold out. It is available on CD (in both MS Word and text versions on one CD) for $15 postpaid.] Part 2, published in 1996, takes up where Part 1 leaves off, starting with the seventh generation of Thomas & Mercy Disbrow's descendants, and carrying the lines on down (in many cases) to the present day (1996). This volume contains a special chapter of Additions and Corrections to Part 1, along with a skeletal listing of every member of the first six generations for reference. This book is also completely referenced and indexed. Hardcover on acid-free paper. 375 pages. [Availability: There is a limited number of hardcover copies still available. Cost is $20 plus your choice of postage ($3, $6 or $9 depending on class). Also available now on CD (in both MS Word and text versions on one CD) for $15 postpaid.] Send check or money order, specifying which volume you want to: Michael S. Disbrow 11413 East 20 Road Manton, MI 49663-9444

For those who haven't already discovered this I found these Monmouth N.J census transcriptions also have Disbrows listed. ftp://ftp.us-census.org/pub/usgenweb/census/nj/monmouth/1840/ ftp://ftp.us-census.org/pub/usgenweb/census/nj/monmouth/1860/ I also got 42 hits by doing a search for Disbrow at http://www.us-census.org/search.html Some of them will be from the two Monmouth, NJ census records above. Trying various spellings may return more hits as census takers weren't noted for accuracy or spelling. Linda Talbott Alaska State Coordinator Michigan State Coordinator Ohio State Coordinator Vermont State Coordinator U.S. Military and Naval Forces Coordinator The USGenWeb Census Project http://www.us-census.org/

>From - Mike Disbrow, listowner Subject - a couple of notes about this list Just a reminder: When you change email addresses: 1. Send a message from your new address with the word SUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. 2. If you can, send a message from your old address with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. If you can't use your old address, notify me to unsubscribe you from the old address. Send To: DISBROW-L-request@rootsweb.com Also: If I get three returned "undeliverable" messages from your address, you will be automatically unsubscribed from this list. Sometimes I get returns saying "quota is full". I guess that means your mailbox is full and you need to delete some of your older mail. If you get unsubscribed you can always subscribe again using the method above. Mike

>From - Mike Disbrow, listowner Subject - 1910 Monmouth Co., NJ census online Thanks Linda Talbott for clueing us in about this census data. It could be of value to you New Jersey Disbrows. I checked the index and here are the Disbrows listed: Pg# Ln# Last Name First Name Age Birth place File ID 33 33 Disbrow Alma A 3 New Jersey ed78-pg0032.txt 18 72 Disbrow Amanda M 46 New Jersey ed77-pg0017.txt 19 16 Disbrow Bertha 19 New Jersey ed77-pg0019.txt 33 31 Disbrow Clifton N 12 New Jersey ed78-pg0032.txt 33 30 Disbrow Edith 18 New Jersey ed78-pg0032.txt 56 13 Disbrow Elizabeth 64 New Jersey ed87-pg0056.txt 19 14 Disbrow Ella 42 New Jersey ed77-pg0019.txt 19 15 Disbrow Granville 21 New Jersey ed77-pg0019.txt 19 13 Disbrow H P 44 New Jersey ed77-pg0019.txt 19 17 Disbrow Harry 15 New Jersey ed77-pg0019.txt 19 18 Disbrow Irene 23 New Jersey ed77-pg0019.txt 18 71 Disbrow James M 49 New Jersey ed77-pg0017.txt 33 29 Disbrow Malinda 39 New Jersey ed78-pg0032.txt 33 28 Disbrow Mortman 43 New Jersey ed78-pg0032.txt 33 32 Disbrow Norman J 7 New Jersey ed78-pg0032.txt 19 19 Disbrow Ruth Abby 8/12 New Jersey ed77-pg0019.txt

Hello list, A portion of the 1910 Census for Monmouth, NJ has been transcribed and uploaded to ftp://ftp.us-census.org/pub/usgenweb/census/nj/monmouth/1910/ today. I just checked and there are Disbrows on it. This is a full transcription but it also has an index so you don't have to search through the entire thing, unless you want to :^) Linda Talbott Alaska State Coordinator Michigan State Coordinator Ohio State Coordinator Vermont State Coordinator U.S. Military and Naval Forces Coordinator The USGenWeb Census Project http://www.us-census.org/

Please change my old email address Princess871998@aol.com to my new one which is anmcllst@aol.com. Thank you very much. Anne Lukeman

>From - Mike Disbrow, listowner Subject - Thomas Disbrow Descendants, Part One now available on CD "The Descendants of Thomas & Mercy (Holbridge) Disbrow, Part One - Generations 1 - 6", compiled by Michael S. Disbrow. First printed in 1992, reprinted in 1996. The hardcover edition of this volume has been sold out for several years, but I have now put the entire book onto CD, in its original form. The files on the disc are in two formats: ".doc" (Microsoft Word) and ".txt", and on a Windows PC can be opened either through Windows Explorer or My Computer. I'm told that the .txt files can be opened on an Apple or Mac as well. Just about anyone with a CD-rom in their computer should be able to read these files in one format or the other. You should note this isn't a "revised" version, but is the same as the 1996 reprint. Any questions about the CD or its contents can be directed to me. The cost is $15, postpaid. A check or money order can be sent to: Michael Disbrow 11413 East 20 Rd. Manton, MI 49663

Caroline Scholz Bellwood, Ne. cscholz@dtnspeednet.com My great-grandfather was Heathcoat Disbrow Beecroft. In the 1850 census for Hamilton township of New Jersey I found Heathcoat and his father Jacob and also in the household was Abigail Disbrow age 57, but that is all I can find on her...I need help any information would be great. thanks for a great web very interesting.

I'm looking for information on Georgiana DISBROW, b. abt. 1854 in Newark, NJ, daughter of Samuel W. and Esther DISBROW, and also information on her parents. Georgiana was married prior to 1880 to Isaac LENT, also of Newark. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Kathy Campbell

>From - Mike Disbrow, listowner Subject - Descendants of Thomas & Mercy (Holbridge) Disbrow, Part 2 Hi everyone - Just thought I'd let you all know I'm trying to sell off the last few copies of my book and have listed one on EBay to see how it will sell. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2911471289 The starting bid is $14.99 and there is no reserve price. Since I originally sold most of the books for $30 or $35, this will be a bargain if it goes for the starting price, but of course I'm hoping it goes higher. The main thing is I just want to get rid of the last copies I have. I haven't sold one for many months. If the EBay thing doesn't work out, I will probably offer the rest of the books outright for a reduced price, but for the time being the only way to get one will be through EBay. Mike

A few more Eltisley descendants: Brian Disbury provides the following: Will of Alice Dysborowe of Horseheath( GV 18:198) but it seems that she died intestate March 4 1579/80. Her son Bruno Disborowe of Eltisley and daughter Joan, wife of Robert Mynat of Horseheath are mentioned,.According to the microfiche of the parish records for Horseheath, there is an Alice Disborowe(Wdw) buried in 1580 and a Joane Disborough married a Robert Mynott in 1578.It looks highly suspicious that Alice was John Disbrowe's Widow, as John died in Eltisley in 1574. John and Alice Disbrowe had a son Bruno and a daughter Johane. Sue Knight (via Martin Mynott) provides the children of Joan Disborowe: Robert Mynott married Joan Disborowe, 2 Oct 1578, Horseheath (all baptized Horseheath, Cambridge) Robert Mynott, ? John Mynott, 28 Sep 1580 William Mynott, 1 Jan 1582 Joan Mynott, 31 Jul 1584 Lawrence Mynott, 3 Jan 1586/87, md. Ann Amey, 26 Apr 1623, Saint Sepulchre,Cambridge Carl Dunn

Hi, I just rejoined this Disbrow list. Am wondering if anyone has in their genealogical findings any information on Cranbury, Middlesex, New Jersey pre-1800s. We have traced our g-g-g grandfather John Disbrow (m. Mary Snider - Snyder?) back to this era and location. How about the First Presbyterian Church in Cranbury, NJ about this time? Happy Holiday wishes to all. Jacqui Disbrow Likvan _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf

I have decided to try new Scanner OCR again (otherwise you'd never see posting below): ...MORE on early ownership of "advowson" at Eltisley (which term simply refers to the "living" provided to the village pastor, and the ownership of which apparently simply allows the owner to choose a particular pastor for that "living"!). It is clear from this published material that there were SEVERAL "manor" estates at Eltisley in 17th c. (none of which show a James "junior," however). Please appreciate that this very thorough material to follow, as published in the "Victoria History of the Counties of England: History of Cambridgeshire" (12 pages on Eltisley village, readily available at major libraries), unfortunately indicates just ONE James Disbrowe here (eg: father of Thomas of Eltisley, also known as "Elder" who m. Eliz. MARSHALL, presumed below to be parents of famous Major General). Unfortunately, this material entirely ignores mysterious 2nd contemporary James of Eltisley, called "Junior," who we must now conclude was father to the 2 famous brothers (did he own lands at Eltisley??...certainly he lived there when he was baptizing all his own children, & it's the place where the Major General married 1636 to Jane Cromwell!). Please pay special attention, near end, to the material on Papley Manor at Eltisley, owned by the MARSHALL family early in 17th c., and one WILLIAM Marshall (this may explain name of 3rd son, William, in James Disbrowe/Elder's line, while implying identification of a father perhaps for Elizabeth 'Marshall' Disbrowe!). Also note important connection to Emmanuel College, Cambridge by 1593, which College I especially visited on my last trip since it's closely connected to New England settlement, producing such pastors as Thomas Hooker, John Harvard, & host of significant others for my thesis. Also note a reference to the "MASON" family regarding "Pembroke Farm," near end. Recall that Thomas Disbrowe married a Susan Mason at Cambridge, abt.1650. Does THIS give clue as to HER identity perhaps then?? Also note the very early reference to surname "Jordan", which surname also appears much later in the Samuel Disbrowe material as referenced by Henry Waters "Gen. Gleanings"! The information below is very impressively footnoted throughout (not indicated by me, so those of you w/ further interest in detailed sourcing must consult original). "CHURCH....The first reference to the parish church occurs when, before 1173, Roger de Condet granted the advowson to St. Leonard's Hospital, York. The hospital did not long retain the advowson, which in 1202 was granted by Lisiard de Musters to Roger son of Peter and thereafter descended with the manor until 1351 when Thomas of Eltisley granted it to Mary de St. Pol, countess of Pembroke. In 1362 the Crown licensed the appropriation of the rectory to Denny Abbey, but the licence was rescinded because of a faulty statement of title; in 1366 it again licensed the appropriation and also the grant of the advowson by the countess to the abbey. The abbey held the advowson of the rectory, but notwithstanding the second licence and a papal licence of 1402 the appropriation was not effected until 1518, when a vicarage was endowed. In 1539 the rectory and advowson formerly belonging to Denny Abbey were granted to Edward Elrington, and thereafter remained in the same ownership. Elrington sold them in 1542 to Sir William Bowyer, lord mayor of London (d. 1544), whose devisee Alice, wife of Henry Searle [note: my father is good friends with a modern, CT branch of English "Searle"], sold them to Francis Mannock in 1557. The Mannocks sold them in 1600 to John Disbrowe and they descended in the senior branch of the Disbrowe family until 1713 when Robert Shipsea and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of the Revd. John Disbrowe, conveyed them in trust to John Disbrowe of Willingham who is said to have sold them to Hester Baron of Little Eversden. She devised them to members of the Day family. In 1789 Samuel, son of John Day, sold the advowson and rectory to Edward Leeds of Croxton and thenceforward they descended with the manor. Throughout the 13th century Eltisley was one of the richest benefices in the deanery. The value, 21 marks c. 1217 and in 1254, had increased to 35 marks by 1291, and in 1364 was said to be 35+ marks. In 1279 the rector had 13 a. of land, though it is not certain that it was glebe. Only half an a. was conveyed with the advowson in 1351. Land in Eltisley belonging to the rectory was often mentioned in late medieval terriers. he rectory estate was slightly more than 100 a, in 1557. It was said to be of virtually the same extent in 1789. After appropriation the whole of the tithes belonged to the impropriator. They were commuted for a rent-charge of £216 in I84I, the tithes due from the lands of the impropriator, Samuel Newton, being merged with the freehold of his estates. It is possible that the house built by James Disbrowe and mentioned above occupies the site of the rectory house. The original endowment of the vicarage in 1518 was £8 a year paid by the impropriator.57 In 1639 there was also vicarial glebe consisting of two closes containing on & half a. In 1650 the gross value of the living was said to be £I2 and a proposal of 1657 to augment it by £50 a year was not carried out. In 1785 the gross income was still only £13, of which £8 was paid as the original endowment and the remainder was derived from the rent of the vicarage house and the glebe. In 1771 and 1784 the benefice received grants of £200 from Queen Anne's Bounty, which was used in 1801 to buy 27 a. in Elsworth. The total income of the incumbent was £35 in 1810. Further augmentations of £200 were made in 1810 and 1828, used partly to redeem a mortgage on the Elsworth land, and a further £200 was provided out of the Parliamentary Grant Fund. The gross income of the vicarage rose to £48 1830 and £52 in 1922. In 1892 one of the glebe closes became a new burial ground. One of the conditions for the appropriation of Eltisley was that the rector should provide a suitable house for the vicar. In 1615 there was a vicarage house near the church. It is not known to have been used as the residence of the incumbent after the early 17th century. It was uninhabited and in a very bad condition in 1783 and was said to be in ruins in 1790 when it was ordered to be pulled down. No other house was built and since the early 19th century the incumbent has usually resided at Croxton Rectory, which is closer to Eltisley church than to that of Croxton. There was evidently a medieval guild at Eltisley for in 1569 the Crown sold a tenement formerly called the guildhall and then the town house in Eltisley together with 19 a. of land. About 1230 William le Juvene, son of Roger of Eltisley, granted 3 a. in Eltisley to William, chaplain of Papworth Everard, who was to render 4 gallon of oil to maintain William's lamp before the cross in Eltisley church. The land was later transferred to St. John's hospital, Cambridge, and the oil was still being paid in the 14th century...." [page 56] "Among notable residents of Eltisley should be mentioned John Disbrowe (or Desborough) (1608-80), son of James Disbrowe of Eltisley. In 1636 he married Oliver Cromwell's sister Jane in Eltisley church. He became major-general for the west and was prominent in the revolutions that followed Cromwell's death. In 1657 he purchased the manor of Eltisley but is not known to have lived there. His brother Samuel (16I9-90), also born at Eltisley, was keeper of the Great Seal of Scotland during the Interregnum. [page 48] "MANORS & OTHER ESTATES: ...Phillip [of Stowe] was dead by 1346 and in the same year John Le Ward of Trumpington held Eltisley. John, however, had only a life-interest in the manor, which descended in moieties, one owned by John Goldingham of Chigwell (Essex) and Eleanor, his wife, and the other by Sir Alan Buxhull. It is probable that the wives of John and Alan were the heirs of Philip of Stowe. In 1349 Sir Alan Buxhull granted the reversion of his moiety, after the death of John le Ward, to Thomas of Eltisley, rector of Lambeth (Surr.), and others, apparently acting as feoffees. In the same year John and Eleanor Goldingham granted their moiety to Thomas of Eltisley and others. Those feoffees seem to have settled the whole manor, which became known as STOWE or GOLDINGHAMS, on Sir Alexander Goldingham, son of John and Eleanor. Alexander died in 1408, devising to his widow, Isabel, a life-interest in Eltisley which afterwards passed to his son, Sir Walter Goldingham. Walter died before 1435~4 and after the death of his widow, Elizabeth, the manor descended in two moieties to their daughters, Eleanor and Cecily. Cecily married William Chilton, or Chitterne, whose son, also William, died in 1458 when his moiety reverted to his aunt, Eleanor Goldingham, who had married John Mannock of Stoke by Nayland (Suff.). Eleanor died in 1468 seised of the whole manor which remained with her husband until his death in 1471. John Mannock was succeeded by his son John (d. 1476), whose son and heir, George Mannock, was a minor at his father's death. George Mannock died in 1541 and was followed by his son William (d. i5~S). William's son Francis (d. 1590) devised to his wife Anne a life-interest in the estate, but she was a recusant and in 1591 two-thirds of the manor was sequestrated by the Crown and leased to William Twittye. In 1599 Thomas Leeds of Croxton was granted the lease of the two-thirds of the estate. After Anne's death the manor descended to her son William Mannock (d. 1616), although in 1611 two-thirds was still under sequestration because of his recusancy. William's son, Sir Francis Mannock (cr. bt. 1627) died seised of the manor in 1634. Sir Francis's son Sir Francis was a recusant and Eltisley was again under sequestration in I650 when it was leased to Isaac Disbrowe. In 1653 the Committee for Compounding allowed the petition of the creditors of Sir Francis for the release to them of the manor. In 1657 Mannock sold it to Major-General John Disbrowe (or Desborough) (d. 1680) who devised it to his eldest surviving son, Valentine. Valentine Disbrowe held the manor in 1706 but had been succeeded by John Disbrowe by 1710. The manor is said to have been devised by John Disbrowe, by will dated 1741, to the two sons of his nephew, William Walford of Bocking (Essex). In 1789 the Revd. William Walford, Mary Walford, widow, and Thomas Walford sold it to Edward Leeds of Croxton Park. Thereafter the manor has descended with Croxton. There are several medieval moated sites in Eltisley most of which were owned by Samuel Newton of Croxton Park in I841. None has been certainly identified as the site of the original manor-house. In 1807, however, the manor-house, described as 'of the old sort', was moated and used as a farmhouse. Manorial courts were still held there. It is possible that that building may have been the Manor Farm marked on the tithe 'nap of 1841, which stands on a moated site and dates from the late Middle Ages. It was remodelled in the 17th century and has later additions and alterations. "PAPLEY MANOR.....The manor of PAPLEY originated in a series of grants of land in Eltisley and Caxton made to Hinchingbrooke Priory (Hunts.) between the mid 12th century and early I4th.32 In 3279 the priory held a messuage called Papley, 36 a. of arable, and 12 a. of wood in demesne in Eltisley. Its lands in Kingsfield, originally part of Caxton, seem to have been regarded as being in Eltisley by the 16th century. At the Dissolution Papley was granted to Richard Williams alias Cromwell36 who sold it to William Marshall of Eltisley in 1540. It then consisted of 130 a., about 10 a. of which lay in Papworth Everard. The estate was sometimes called the manor of Papworth Everard. In 1544 William Marshall purchased a further messuage and 44 a. in Eltisley called Mitchell's from Thomas Smith of Bedford. Smith had purchased the estate in 1522 from the executors of Robert Mounford. In 1549 Marshall also bought a pightle and 4 a. of land which had been given for an anniversary in Eltisley church. Those two properties appear to have been merged with the Papley estate. William Marshall died in 1551 and his lands passed to his brother John. By will proved in 1591 John Marshall devised most of his estates, including those mentioned above, to his elder son William, who sold Papley manor to Emmanuel College, Cambridge, in 1593. The estate remained with the college until 1899 when it was sold to Ernest Hooley of Papworth Hall. In 1911 and 1916 it was offered for sale under the title of Papley Grove manor as part of the Papworth Hall estate. There is a medieval moated site at Papley Grove which presumably marks the location of the manorhouse. In 1541, however, the 'mansion' belonging to the estate appears to have stood in the village by Cambridge Way. In 1770 the farm-house was described as a rough-cast and tiled building, but its location was not stated. The homestead belonging to the estate stood at Papley Grove in 1841. The modern farm-house and buildings at Papley Grove, however, appear to have been built by Emmanuel College after the inclosure of 1868. The nucleus of what later became JESUS COLLEGE FARM appears to have been the copy-hold land (20 a.) formerly held by John Canon and then by Richard Mitchell, to which Joan Stowe, widow of Richard, and her son David Mitchell were admitted tenants in 1494. Gerard Mitchell succeeded his father David in 1550 and was followed by John Mitchell the elder in 1571, when the addition of other copyhold land had enlarged the tenement to over 40 a. John Mitchell the elder died in or before 1573 and his widow Elizabeth held the estate for life. After her death it passed to John Mitchell who sold it in 1633 to John Jeanes, who in 1639 conveyed the Mitchell property to Thomas Knight, vicar of Swavesey. In 1653 Knight purchased from John Peaseley a further 15 a. of copyhold land.56 The copyhold of Knigbt's estate, amounting to some 90 a., was enfranchised in 1658....." [ETC] "PEMBROKE FARM appears to have had its origin in small parcels of freehold land acquired by Richard and Henry Jordan between 1346 and 1399 and by Henry Dicon between 1404 and 1408. In 1488 Thomas, son of John Dicon of Eltisley, conveyed 6 a. to Gerard Skipwith, rector of Eltisley, and Gerard Hammond. In 1501 Skipwith acquired another 14 a. from Robert, son of John Woodward. By will dated 1503 Skipwith devised a life-interest in his tenements in Eltisley to his relative, Anne. After her death they were to pass to Pembroke College, Cambridge of which he was a fellow. In 1504 Isabel Hammond, his sister, conveyed 20 a. to Pembroke College in trust. In 1540 William Weldysh and his wife Anne, apparently the beneficiary under Skipwith's will, conveyed a messuage and 84 a. of land in Eltisley to William Cook who in the same year enfeoffed the college with that estate. In 1599 it was still known as Dicon's and was extended at 58 a. The farm-house may have been the messuage which had once belonged to the hospital of Burton Lazars (Leics.). In 1599 it stood north of the Green and was apparently on the same site in 1841. At inclosure, however, the college was allotted 78 a. in the north-east part of the parish and a new farmhouse and buildings were erected north of the Cambridge road, near the boundary with Papworth Everard. The college sold the farm to Ernest Hooley of Papworth Hall in 1899, and it was offered for sale as part of the Papworth Halt estate in 1911. By will proved 1716 Dr. Daniel Williams, the nonconformist divine, devised the reversion of an estate in Eltisley jointly to St. Thomas's Hospital and the London workhouse in Bishopsgate Street. The estate, which was part copyhold and part freehold, was then worth £55 a year and was occupied by a widow named MASON [my emphasis], perhaps Rebecca, widow of Simon Mason who was involved in litigation over an estate in Eltisley in 1691. The estate was held jointly by the hospital and the workhouse and managed by the former. In 1781 it consisted of 250 a., all but 20 a. being dispersed arable. In 1829 the property of the workhouse was vested in the corporation of London for the estab lishment of a corporation school. The school, known as the Freemen's Orphan School, was opened in 1854. The land was farmed in three units in 1837, but after the inclosure of 1868 it was consolidated as one farm, known as HOSPITAL FARM. The estate was sold to George Douglas Newton of Croxton Park in 1902. The farm-house was described as a little rough-cast and tiled house in 1781 when it was let as two tenements. In 1841 the main house stood at the north end of the Green on the road to Cambridge, where the modern farm-house, known as East Farm, stood in 1968. In 1568 John Marshall purchased an estate in Eltisley from John Smith of Needingworth (Hunts.). By his will proved 1591 Marshall devised the land to his younger son Matthew, who in 1630 conveyed his lands in Eltisley to John Marshall. In 1646 John Marshall granted the reversion of it to John Gilman. The name Gilman or Gilmyn appears at Eltisley from the early 15th century [note: my childhood doctor in Mansfield, CT was named "Gilman"] and the family seems to have been relatively prosperous. Thomas Gilmyn of St. Neots and Eltisley had been C. 1487 escheator in Cambridge­shire. The combined Marshall and Gilman lands, consisting of c. 120 a., passed successively to John Gilman's son Joseph and granddaughter Mary. Mary Gilman married James Chidley of Rother­hithe (Surr.). The Chidleys later removed to Papworth Everard and raised various mortgages on the Eltisley estate. In 1679, after Mary's death, James Chidley sold it to William Heylock (d. 1688) of Abbotsley (Hunts.) whose lands passed to hk nephew, Henry Kingsley. By will proved 1666 Isaac Disbrowe of Elsworth devised 20 a. and 24 a. in Eltisley to his grandsons, John and Isaac Disbrowe. John sold his estate to Edward Cosyn of Croxton in 1669 and ten years later Isaac sold his land to Cosyn's widow, Jane. In 1683 Jane Cosyn mortgaged both tenements to Henry Kings­ley. John Disbrowe seems, however, to have re­tamed some interest in the properties and finally released them to Henry Kingsley in 1704. The Chidley and Disbrowe lands thus united passed from Henry Kingsley (d. 1712) to his son Heylock (d. 1749) of Hasell HaIl, Sandy (Beds.). Heylock Kingsley's daughter and heir, Elizabeth, married William Pym (d. 1788). The Eltisley estate (c. 260 a.) seems to have come into the possession of William's second son, Woolaston Pym (d. 1846), rector of Radwell (Herts.). On his death it passed to his nephew Francis Pym (d. i86o) who in 1850 sold it to Samuel Newton of Croxton Park. In 1841 the farmstead stood on the south side of the Green near the road from St. Ives to Potton. It became known as Green Farm and the building was stilt standing in 1968. It dates from the mid 17th century with 18th-century and later alterations and additions...." [pages 51-2; SNIP...there is much more on Eltisley in reference]

I see I just sent a mistaken draft from my drafts file of "Two Early Disbrow Wills-Redux" under a new title of "Thanks for votes of Confidence, Much Appreciate". THIS particular mistaken item, now prematurely sent, while essentially accurate, is simply an OLD, discarded draft which I decided was NEVER worth my posting to this List (so now you have it anyway!). While it is not in-accurate, it is ir-relevant since it deals with whether that OTHER "James junior" may have owned lands at Eltisley, which he certainly could just as well have done so, nevertheless (making my comments irrelevant---see??), and that he must have done so, as I believe for reasons which are indicated therein anyway (though we may never know better, perhaps, since his own will appears no longer to exist, apparently! Can we find other such evidence then??---Do not count on me spending forever hunting!). I'm sorry to have mistakenly bothered you with these interesting, but no longer very relevant arguments, and my further personal outdated concerns as expressed therein. That MISTAKEN posting indicates my continuing problem with these technologies! HERE IS THE CORRECT ITEM I MEANT TO FORWARD FROM MY ORIGINAL DRAFTS FILE: Thanks for your positive comments, they are MUCH appreciated. Please see the following "The Other Shoe Drops...Partly," which I repeat here, with minor corrections;...including additional info on that other "brother" Nathaniel Disbrowe being also buried at OVER, in 1651, just as his father, that other James ("junior") was himself buried at OVER in 1633,... my additions/corrections to this item were made some time ago and I meant to post them on that "final" Friday following my Halloween postings: RE: My "other shoe" now drops...partly! [CORRECTING above subject-title for better access in D-Archives, also w/ corrected typos & an additional clue for your better "treasure hunt" below, so enjoyyy....] TENTATIVELY (absent further info from my 2nd trip to England), I substantially agree with the two "James Disbrowes theory"' of the division of the early 17th c. Eltisley Disbrow children, including that Thomas (bp 1625) is son to James "the Elder" just as stated in the Eltisley Bishop's Transcripts I have, while the famous Major General is the son of the "Elder's" contemporary: that mysterious James "junior" (yet, with obviously important questions/"equivocations" still unresolved). This requires that we consider the long established historical birth-date of the famous Major General John Disbrowe to be entirely mistaken (as a"historian," such is naturally difficult for me to go along with casually & without knowing better ALL the historical sources for that date----has it been only just Rev. Mark Noble in 18th c.?). Therefore, the Major General had to have been alternatively baptised on 8 Oct 1609 as that "other" mysterious John (to father James "junior") and NOT on the baptismal date of 13 Dec 1608 so long believed by the DNB and other sources. While there were yet OTHER "John Disbrows" of his generation, or just after, floating around in the area (as you will see below), I believe we can "tentatively" account for the TWO of these that we have seen in the Eltisley record recently argued over. Furthermore, I have in fact "sympathized" with the above position from the very beginning of our debate, just as indicated by several of my postings during it (see esp. "Hang In There, Carl", etc, where I reference this fact & another "shoe to drop"!). IT was always NECESSARY to test this "hunch"/hypothesis as rigorously as possible, given all that was at stake (& I do NOT mean for my book-project alone, which in many ways can argue either side easily, while actually finding the above "hypothesis" far more easy to swallow as "plausible" for MANY important reasons). The reason for my own long-standing "sympathy" above will now become obvious below, via that other "shoe" previously noted during the debate, and which very provocative "new fact" I have had in my possession since my first trip to England last December (but which still needs confirmation/resolution during my 2nd planned trip, due to serious unresolved questions about it!). Before our debate, I was in the midst of reviewing the maiden-name issue related to this "fact" (namely the Elizabeth Hatley/Marshall conundrum) and was generally unprepared to conclude anything about this matter until after my up-coming trip to England! This maiden-name issue is the obverse of the two James theory/"hunch." I did NOT always understand or recognize the significance of the "fact" ("shoe") in my possession despite it being a part of my "bible" of closely consulted documents on the Eltisley Disbrowes. I have had many questions about it. Therefore, I'd have much preferred that our "debate" occur AFTER my up-coming 2nd trip to England, planned in part because of my many questions about this issue, questions I already had at the ready during our debate as you've seen since I had been asking them of myself. I had NOT yet resolved some of these by then. I still have not for many others as raised in our debate, etc... Meanwhile, this particular "shoe" flatly contradicts one particularly cherished "proven fact" advanced as obvious by my opposite in our recent debate. Namely, the issue of just WHO may be buried in that 1634 Eltisley grave...THIS is not as obvious as he presumed just from his one source of the Bishop's Transcripts for Eltisley alone, re: the two James "JUNIORS" we know about from that source in early Eltisley. This question is necessarily/inextricably bound-up with the far MORE important question of just WHEN the Major General succeeded to proprietorship of the lands at Eltisley manor under primogeniture, ...not to mention his own more accurate birth date, despite established "history" now in need of revision. All of which interrelated issues raise vitally important new "history" concerning the Major General's extremely "famous" career, as so long recounted in history books... So bear with me, if you don't mind! WHY then has this issue of the two-family divisions, above, been so difficult for some "old Disbrowe hands" to accept (including the 1986 authors Johnson & Disbrowe??), esp. after some of us have consulted more than just the Eltisley VR records alone? Partly because in order to accept this new line-up ("hunch") of the two contemporary James Disbrow families from that one VR source at very early 17th c. Eltisley, we must also accept a very odd fact (now all too un-"equivocal"), one which is expressly 'counter-intuitive.' Namely: that there existed, side-by-side, two James Disbrow families at tiny Eltisley village (obviously related by blood, but now even THAT must be a bit less certain) who also each had IDENTICALLY named first & second sons: both w/ given-names of "James" & "John," while ADDITIONALLY having identically named wives too: "Elizabeth!" This is carrying "witchy" coincidence to the level of the absurd, of course... But such is the case, unless I'm somehow now mistaken about this odd complex of facts (which I cannot seem to get past by way of explanation other than as fascinating "COINCIDENCE," which even to me seems a bit unusual). This is now "proven" by that 1614 will of James Disbrow the Elder I keep mentioning.... And isn't HE still the guy who fathered "Thomas" according to all Eltisley VR material yet available (....obviously, all usual "good sense" about such VR records says we cannot reassign Thomas simply due to some "equivocations" from these limited VR records only)? All of which (above) I have been at great, & increasingly distressing, pains to point out during our debate. Here's how curious it can get: the 1614 "will" of the Elder James only further deepens this mystery when it refers to "my NOW eldest son James"(---my upper-case emphasis is added!). So then, what son could have come before that "NOW" eldest son James, ...especially recalling that this father, the "Elder," supposedly had married one "Elizabeth Marshall" only by 1 August 1605 (according to the limited Eltisley VR material alone; ... & was it even a "first" marriage?), and that same VR material only records just ONE "James son" anywhere to any Disbrow line then, that one as baptized only one year later (&, bafflingly, this son can "only" be the son to that OTHER contemporary of the Elder James: that so mysterious "James junior")! Where do we fit in TWO sons for James the ELDER within just a year after his marriage to Eliz. Marshall then??! MY POINT IS THIS: where is that OTHER "James" offspring of James the ELDER to be found on any record (anywhere??), and if, in fact, the Elder was ALSO just married barely one year before the first known Eltisley bp record of 17 Aug 1606, recording one "James as son of James JUNIOR" (when these VR begin altogether)....Such are obviously important questions, never posed just to be confusing (if my opposite once may have suspected )! I have found nothing else on this problem in the Over vital records I have, or from my own far more limited Burrough Green, Elsworth, Haddenham, etc, VR material so far....PLEASE RECALL THAT THIS DEBATE CAME JUST AT A TIME WHEN I WAS REVIEWING ALL THIS MATERIAL INCLUSIVELY, AND HAD ALREADY DECIDED TO GO TO ENGLAND AGAIN TO AUTHENTICATE SEVERAL RECORDS. WELL, so now perhaps you see my dilemma.... Further, my review over the past week (after our debate) of ALL my own available evidence has been helpful in demonstrating that no "William" (from James Elder's 1614 will naming him "3rd son"), as I once thought I'd seen however, was ever born ELSEWHERE "additionally" for our witchy pairings. Nor did he ever die early enough to subsequently be entirely ignored by the other source materials I have for Samuel Disbrowe, for example, which mentions no "William" in his pedigree or in his will as thereby possibly being his "brother" too. See Samuel's 1680 will & 1684 pedigree, which latter item is actually very surprisingly inadequate, in several respects...such as failing to note also his own sister Rebecca Green!! I have already, in our debate, indicated one possible reason for this pedigree's inadequacy, via the separately indicated feeble health of Samuel by then. His incapacities were already being spoken about by his own brother-in-law, London Lord Mayor Sir Patience Ward, on the record from a decade earlier (when Ward was Alderman) concerning Samuel's attempt to be named Cambridgeshire Sheriff then, & w/ oppositon from Ward due to Samuel's poor health issues by 1674. These included deafness & being "moped"or listless (meaning probably "senile") some10 years before his 1684 pedigree was taken in a "visitation"---(see my follow-up post on this matter specifically).[NOTE: very oddly, my copy of Webster's New Unabridged Dictionary for the word "moped" delivers a fascinating, illustrative quote from our own Major General John Disbrowe's colleague/undoubted acquaintance: the famous Puritan poet John Milton--also in government under Cromwell; Milton is quoted: "Demonic phrensy, moping, melancholy"....the word "melancholy" also is purposeful here in the very meaningful 17th c. jargon of spiritual/mystical beliefs about the tragic realization of inevitable death, w/ many a philosophical treatise/poem concerning!] The same as above for William, in my subsequent research the past week after debate, is also true for "Nathaniel," who is himself actually listed by Samuel's 1684 pedigree (though NOT by Samuel's 1680 will significantly!), thereby being identified as a "brother," unlike the William above (while a "Nathaniel" is also noted as a "brother" in the 1654 Wm. Leete letter, printed by Henry Waters in his Gen Gleanings, however, THIS Nathaniel is confusingly only one "Nath'l WHITFIELD," and not a "Disbrowe" by blood---see Waters' footnotes on this also!). Concerning which given-name of "Nathaniel," there are still MANY confusions/questions from the early 17th c. OVER vital records with respect to various Nath'l DISBROWS indicated there and even preceding the Eltisley bp of one such as real "brother" 13 Sept 1612, however. I particularly wanted to note William Disbrowe, above, expressly because he demonstrates that the three known brothers as fathered by the Elder James (by 1614 will) were EACH born long prior to two BRUNO Disbrow Eltisley baptisms (followed soon after by "their" obvious burial listings) from that very same Elder's line (by the VR record alone). Therefore, it is not INEVITABLY obvious that this line is simply naming these later "Bruno" sons for a mysterious progenitor of this line who is also named "Bruno," & thereby in order to inevitably tie this line expressly to that still mysterious, earlier generation which did include a "Bruno." I do not say ALL this just in order to be confusing, OK!? Further, there are several other confusing William Disbrowe references on the record elsewhere, including via Gary Boyd Roberts [Eng. Origins of N.E. Fams.] will abstract for a Cambridge baker who died 1648. Without giving too much away, I will say that THIS William is especially interesting to me since, while Roberts' will abstract mentions NO familiar surnames relating to the Eltisley Disbrowes, it does mention one surname at least which is somewhat provocative of my major thesis about Thomas of Fairfield, CT: ....namely, the surname "Bassett." While I originally intended to post some OVER VR analysis to this List I now NO longer intend doing so since all this "mess" has tended to be "over-reacted" to while simply raising endless rounds of further time-consuming explanation. However, I will say this much about the OVER VR here: There are a great MANY "provocative" surname convergences in that material: "name magic" (among other provocative connecting links), far too many for "coincidence" alone in my estimation. Such links as between the many Disbrows there & familiar surnames also closely associating with our Disbrows at early southern New England, and also at Eltisley more naturally! These surnames include GREENE, Webb, Jackson, HATLEY (there are TWO Hatley's on record at very early southern New England, including on ship HOPEWELL I believe it was and certainly at Milford, CT one "Philip," who returned to England 1649, within a year of Samuel Disrowe's return too), BULL (this at Hartford with Nicholas Disbrowe, etc), CROUTCH (a "Crowtch" spelling appears early 17th c. Eltisley VR too, this surname is similarly spelled as "Crouch" by Schenk in her "History of Fairfield," but usually appears as "Couch" at Fairfield, CT, Compo>> they are next-door neighbors to my own Thomas Disbrow there & figure prominently into my book-project; "Cooch" is also a variant spelling which appears in 18th c. Eltisley VR!!), Palmer, Mills (see Rose Hobson Disbrow's will & Samuel's too), HOBSON, Bond, Barnes, Peck/Pecke (one "Paul Peck of Ell-tisley" is listed as ship passenger by one of Banks books, probably the guy at Htfd!), Coopar/COOPER, Gunton, Burrowes (this one is very provocative in many ways), Harvie, Frost, Finch, FARRINGTON (very many here, & shows up w/ Isaac Disbrow's ship passage to NE, fascinating to my thesis!), Ward, Hull (another very early CT surname of my own ancestry who marreid a later Disbrow of mine), Willigo (from will abstract we tried deciphering recently), Woodward, Hawkins, Kirbye, Ellis, Clarke, GRAY, MARSHALL, Spenser, many MANSFIELD references (surname at New Haven & the current name of my own hometown in CT!), BENTON, STOCKER, COE, Bodger, Jones, Holland, Gates, Burton, RICHARDSON (at NE & maiden name of wife to goldsmith John Disbrow; recall "banker DESBOE" which I discoverd at Bank England Museum >>there are several surnames spellings as "DESBROW" on Over records too), Barons, Smith (ha, ha), Fransum (in a barely deciphered Disbrow will I have), Hall, Thompson, etc.... Finally, there is my own "SQUIRE" surname which shows up several times at Over and at Eltisley VR BOTH. While more commonplace than Disbrow, this surname is not only connected to my own Mercy Disbrow's witch trial in 1692 in several ways, it is also associated closely with her own stepfather: the Rev. John Jones of early Fairfield, CT. Rev. Jones was "ordained deacon" at Peterborough in 1613 (per F.C. Hart, TAG, 1996) after which time he certainly associated there with his close family friend, Sgt George Squire of that same place in England, who accompanied him to Fairfield by 1644. I note with interest from my Cambridge University ALumni CD (which unaccountably includes more Essex/Cambridgeshire 17th c. DISBROWs as alumni than has so far been posted to the D-List recently, or which may appear in Alumni Cantabrigensis book reference alone too!): one BRUNO DISBOROUGH also was "ordained deacon"and "priest" at this very same Peterborough, Eng. in 1630, & at a time when our Rev. John Jones was "probably rector" at Abbot's Ripton, HUNTS... So then, it is NOT particularly in my interest to neglect any possible association of any Bruno Disborowe of Eltisley as a possible progenitor for Thomas Disbrow's Eltisley line of James the ELDER, of course! This "Squire" surname also appears as a fellow passenger with one Thomas Desborow on the ship CROWN MALLIGOE in 1677 as one "Elizabeth Squire," among other obvious Fairfield, CT surnames aboard with him then. Why have respected past Disbrow researchers never caught on to the TWO James Disbrows at early Eltisley?? In preparation for my last trip Dec. 2001, I was sent much important reference material, including material I noted several times in our debate, by Harold B. Disbrow & Eddis Johnson. These two collaborated on a 1986, 60-page "English Antecedents & Their Kinsfolk" publication which flatly ignored (entirely!) the existence of the now so famous "other" James Disbrow (called "junior" at Eltisley VR), as did Johnson in his earlier/identical report called: "Disbrow Families of England" from 1976. Meanwhile, these authors (absurdly to me now!) lumped all the children, some 15 or so, of the two James Disbrows into that one family of James "Elder/senior" (called "the Elder" by them); and which issue would not have seemed too unusual since large families were expected/required then. Oddly enough, these authors also cited the very same Bernice Disbrow vital records material (collected from one Margaret Bone of England in 1975) which was also the basis for the flawed Hutchings posting to our own Disbrow Archive in 2000, and as used by my opposite in our debate far more successfully than the above authors apparently. Why did these past authors do this? I can only come up with one suggestion, after looking at all the sources I have now and before I "peek" at any original 17th c. records on my trip (which was planned, in fact, well before this debate in order to resolve some of these very same "confusions," recall that I began my examination of the Hatley/Marshall conundrum just before this debate, and was in the midst of this review expressly for my trip, when the "hostile" debate ensued!). I can only now speculate these authors entirely overlooked that other James Disbrow (called "junior" and who is certainly all too obviously in those vital records as contemporary to the Elder) perhaps because the lines of the TWO James seem so identical in such curiously "witchy" fashion as I outlined above. I am also sad to report that I believe from my index of Disbrow wills at the Shire Hall (to follow) that there is now NO available will for the contemporary James "junior" in question here. Sorry gang! These authors based each chapter of their reports on the will abstracts for each significant generational progenitor (I therefore have early Disbrow will abstracts for the following from this material: John Disborowe/Elder, John Disborowe Younger, James Disbrowe/Elder, Isaac Disbrowe/Senior, Major Gen. John, Samuel Disbrowe, etc.). The absence of the James "junior" will seems to have been their fatal flaw perhaps. So, what is my so-called "Other Shoe to drop?" I was verbally given information in England which states unequivocally that the James who is buried at Over, dated 20 Jan 1633, is the actual father of Major General John, brother to Samuel Disbrowe (he is also very curiously buried just days before one "Robert Hatley" there too) and that his son Nathaniel Disbrowe (brother to Maj. Gen.) was also buried at OVER on 2 August 1651 "per Bishop's Transcripts". Though it was not then excluded that Thomas also could have been their brother as well. While this verbal information must be closely checked against available actual documents I know about which exist in duplicate from the 17th c. (with only one of them indicating this information for reasons which I feel are "equivocal", I was not able to see this pertinent item listing on my last trip. While these documents themselves clearly also have multiple "equivocations" about them, it is NOT possible for Thomas to have been listed as he is in the Eltisley Disbrow VR under James "the Elder" and still be the son of this other James who is clearly buried at OVER in 1633! James "the Elder" is clearly only that James who is buried at Eltisley on 23 Oct 1638. Although his "Elder" status is not indicated in the Eltisley Bishop's Transcripts, we do have his 1614 will as proved also at that very same time of 1638. So, failing an arbitrary re-assignment of the VR listing for Thomas as being fathered by a "junior" instead of the "senior" (recall that even the Village historian Mike Sawyer mistakenly left out a couple of just such designations in his copy for me of this VR, obviously also derived from the Cambridge Central Library material I also collected!), then I must conclude that Thomas is NOT the son of the same father as the famous two Disbrowe brothers of early 17th c. Eltisley. Get it?? I do NOT intend to reveal to you just what this VERBAL information is at this time, how I came by it or how I intend to verify it on my up-coming trip to England. I had once every intention of doing so, but given the ugly tenor of our debate, the ungrateful attitude of many of you, my concerns over some of your own over-reliance on this sometimes too lazy medium...I intend that you should do your own homework now and figure it out for yourselves. Call it your "class assignment.". OR, you may simply buy my book when it comes out, as it most CERTAINLY will, for all the many fine new angles I have uncovered, one tenth of which have been shared with this sometimes oddly discourteous List (is it the remote "anonymity" of us all that makes us so bold as to treat one another so, or are we all just descendants of a "witch"???). Enjoy the hunt.... (Happy Halloween!) SSquires

This is brand NEW information never before posted and applies directly to our recent debate topics: The following is taken from the very new "volume 2" of the second series of volumes for "TheGreat Migration Project, 1634 to 1635" (thru letter"F"), as published in February 2001. These are an entirely NEW series of volumes, in addition to the original three volumes called "The Great Migration Begins" (some information from which has just been posted). I have met the editor, Robert C. Anderson, at his lecture some years ago at CT Historical Society. Much later, Judith Johnson, head CHS genealogist/librarian, told him of my research progress re: Thomas of Fairfield & "relational analysis" to Nicholas/Peter Disbrowe. I had NO idea his further volumes were yet available (I have Ancestry.com CD of his first series of volumes) until recently told of this by Frederick C. Hart of Guilford, CT, whom I telephoned last month concerning his excellent Rev. John Jones research in the 1996 TAG (he is not a Disbrow descendant or acquainted with our debate). The following most recent Great Migration Project (GMP) material is from pages 340-41 and sounds surprisingly like some of our recent debate. Several of my own reservations as expressed then are also, therefore, applicable here now too, including the problem of the Major General being assigned paternity of James Disbrow "SENIOR" with that famous baptism of his for 1608 (rather than perhaps the "alternative" John w/ bp. of 1609). It is also of interest to note the "new" GMP info, below, seems to be operating from authentic Eltisley Parish Records and NOT just the Bishop's Transcripts, as they so indicate it (note also detailed quotes from original Latin I have never before seen!). I certainly was NOT aware such existed on my last trip to England and understood these were no longer in existence perhaps, except as Bishop's Transcripts (is that what they mean to say then?? I doubt it!),... however, I've always had every intention of checking into this issue on my follow-up trip coming this December. Please note especially below NEW information from that "treasure house" of Disbrow wills at Shire Hall we discussed but never yet fully accessed: wills now for "Bruno Desborough of Eltisley 1581, and "an extremely important will" for Agnes Disbrowe of Brinkley, "singlewoman," dated 7 April 1590 (on my index listing). It's accurate to call this will "extremely important" since it not only helps decipher the much earlier Disbrowe origins, it ALSO conclusively links Nicholas Disbrowe (of Hartford, CT--Saffron Walden, Eng.) with Samuel Disbrowe (of Guilford, CT--Eltisley, Eng). There is also an informative further entry for WALTER DESBOROUGH in this same volume (so check it out in local gen libraries),... plus one "Hester Dewsbury" as well, in a far too short listing: I did plan on posting (perhaps) more which I have on the Dewsbury/Disbrow conundrum, if time permits for now at some point. GMP, volume 2 for 1634-1635, entry for ISAAC DESBOROUGH : "...Returning to the Eltisley parish register, we find on 13 December 1608 the baptism of "John Disbrow filius Jacobi Disbrow Senior & Elizabeth uxor eius," and on 30 November 1619 the baptism of "Samuell Disbrow filius Jacobi Disbrow et Elizabeth uxor ejus." These were John Desborough, eventually Major Ceneral in Cromwell's Army IDNB!, and SAMUEL DESBOROUGH {1639, New Haven}, who resided in New Haven Colony from 1639 to 1650 and then returned to England, also serving the Parliamentary side [Waters 245-51]. The name James was common in the Desborough family of Eltisley, and there were at least two candidates to be the father of John and Samuel. In his will of 12 October 1581, "Bruno Disborough of Eltisley" included a bequest to "James Disburrough my eldest son" at age 21 [Archdeaconry of Ely 3:355]. In his will of 27 August 1608, "John Disborowe of Eltisley" included bequests to "every of the children of James Disborowe my eldest son" and to "Isaac Disborowe my third son" [Consistory Court of Ely Y:23]. The baptisms of the children of each of these Jameses took place at Eltisley, each had wife Elizabeth, and the designations Senior and Junior were not always used. Nevertheless, it has been possible to separate the baptisms into two groups, one of which includes two sons named Bruno, both of whom died young. Assuming that this is the James named in the will of Bruno Desborough, then the other James having children in Etisley during the same years would be the son of John Desborough, the testator of 1608, and in the grouping of children assigned to this other James are the John and Samuel noted above, baptized in 1608 and 1619. John Desborough, the testator of 1608, also named a son Isaac, the only Isaac found in Desborough wills who could be the father of Isaac Desborough, the immigrant to New England. Under this interpretation then, ISAAC DESBOROUGH {1635 Lynn} and SAMUEL DESBOROUGH {1639, New Haven} were first cousins, and were grandsons of John Desborough. Stretching our analysis further, the earliest Eltisley Desborough will is for "John Disborowe of EIsley the elder," who, in his will of 14 September 1574, names, among other children, "John Disborow my son" and "my son Bruno Disborow," who would seem to be the two testators noted above, each with son James. The font of all Desboroughs appears to be a small region in eastern Cambridgeshire, near the borders of Suffolk and Essex, including the parishes of Stetchworth, Burrough Green, Brinkley and West Wickham. An extremely important will is that of "Agnes Disbrowe of Brinkley, singlewoman," dated 7 April 1590, in which she names dozens of Desborough kin, including "John Disbrowe of Eltisley ... my cousin," and a number of children of this John, who would be the testator of 1608 (his father of the same name having died by 1574) [Consistory Court of Ely VC 20:240]. This leads us to the will of "John Disborow of West Wickling (West Wickham]," dated 10 June 1530, which names "Katherin my wife"; "John and Henry my sons"; "Jeffrey my son"; "Thomas my son"; "the younger sisters Elenor, Agnes and Elizabeth"; and "Alys my daughter"' [Consistory Court of Ely VC 8:168]. If this Agnes named in the will of 1530 is the same as the testator of 1590 (and all evidence examined to this point is consistent with that conclusion), then the first John Desborough of Eltisley would be her brother. Furthermore, her brother Henry, also named in the will of 1530, is the only candidate so far available to be the man of that name who was buried in Saffron Walden in 1559, and whom we have identified as grandfather of WALTER DESBOROUGH {1634, Roxbury} and great-grandfather of NICHOLAS DESBOROUGH {1639, Hartford}. This would make Walter Desborough second-cousin once-removed to Isaac Desborough and Samuel Desborough, and Nicholas Desborough would be third-cousin to these latter two men. Further research on the Desborough family is recommended; such efforts should be highly fruitful. " [snip]

Thanks for your positive comments, they are MUCH appreciated. Please see the following "Two Early Disbrow Wills-REDUX" which I repeat here, with some minor corrections (including additional info on Nathaniel and that James who buried at OVER in 1633, ...additions/corrections I made to it some time ago and meant to post on that Friday following my Halloween postings: In reviewing my post, repeated below with some very important clarifying corrections (including a comma instead of period after the bequst to a mysterious JAMES in the first John Disborowe will), I notice it all raises a very interesting problem which makes my original post (corrected below) into real "hash"---NAMELY, that if "Mr. James Disbrowe" who is buried at Over in 1633 and who may be the actual father of Samuel & Maj. Gen. John Disbrowe (from that so-called unimpeachable "verbal" source I mentioned in "The Other Shoe Drops," ...this source might certainly presume itself to be so!), then this James line, showing-up first in Eltisley as that mysterious James "junior" family of our concern, would certainly NOT have been inheritors of the Eltisley "advowson" (or perhaps much of any land at Eltisley then??!). This because that James was later inexplicably buried at OVER (...why not at Eltisley if owning significant manorial lands there, afterall??), he's presumed fa! ther of Major General (so noted by my as yet un-named 'unimpeachable' source/"shoe," partly dropped for your "fun", source available to you w/ some looking!!). Perhaps then this "James," as father of famous Disbrowes, late of Over in 1633, perhaps had NO Eltisley lands to enjoy in his old age afterall!? What's up with that one?? It is recorded from various Eltisley village sources, including those "olde notes," for example, that James/Elder & Elizabeth "MARSHALL" owned the "rectory," a fine old house closest to the Eltisley churchyard & built for Elizabeth in 1612 (with a stair-post carving of their initials: "J&E, 1612," so I'm told & have read in modern magazine accounts w/ photos,... which initials actually shed no further light). This matter only partly clears-up by assuming the Maj. Gen. acquired the "advowson" only by his first purchase of it in 1657 from Sir Francis Mannocke. Though Isaak Disbrowe LEASED this also from Mannocke in the 1650's (when it was also then owned by Mannocke). YET, on the other hand, this entire "advowson" of manorial property SEEMS to have been in the hands of the TWO earlier John Disborowe progenitors (see their 2 wills below!!) also undoubtedly well BEFORE 1600, & just as history books also indicate! (So, which John spawned which James as progenitor of which Thomas & which "famous" Disbrowe??) Therefore, the Major General's older brother James must have been involved with some LESSER land holdings, apparently also at Eltisley since he is buried there in 1634, and not at OVER (his burial there was amost two years after his "own" father: "Mr. James Disbrow" was buried at OVER on 20 Jan 1633... So goes this "angle" from that so-called 'un-impeachable' source, I no! ted---of which there is NO such thing, of course, but wait until you discover who it is!!). It has also been a part of the traditional historiography about Major General Disbrowe that he was a "farmer" himself at the very beginning of his military career, at Eltisley no less (about which much of the later published & vicious personal vilifications directed at him refer so unflatteringly, & not just for him as a clownish "rustic," with that word often also referencing a generally unsavory "pagan" association known to those times, in fact!). The Major General was also, nevertheless, said to have been a lawyer early in adult life and did serve on the famous Hale Commission to reform the laws during the Commonwealth (which speaks against his being a purely boorish & clumsy "rustic," as do many other of his appointments under Cromwell!). For all of the above, it does STILL seem "likely," just as other sources have previously put it specifically (including those past Disbrowe researchers from 1986), that the Major General's older brother James (also called "junior") is almost certainly that very same James who is buried in the 1634 Eltisley grave, having inherited some sort of lands under primogeniture from the James buried at OVER (YES, I do have this "un-impeachable" source, which is now looking even more full of "equivocations" than I originally had dreamed up already). This scenerio too is just as Samuel Disbrowe's 1684 pedigree seems to indicate by saying "James died young". So then, YOU figure it all out! It "ain't" just up to me, gang, ...and to some extent "I could care less" for my book-project purposes since that project is ultimately FAR more narrow in its CT witch trial scope, believe me! Unfortunately, there is STILL much I can come up with to "equivocate" the two Jameses division of families (making me look back at the 1986 antecedent report with some original respect restored!), and all this from available records INCLUSIVELY, ...as well as from village records about Eltisley lands & 1612 house, via village historian & his other sources!). Don't count on me for all your answers folks, I'll be gone as soon as I finish these "clean-up" postings. Sorry, but so must be! See wills "redux" below: RE: TWO Early Eltisley Will Abstracts. The following are two will abstracts from the 1986 Antecedents publication. These demonstrate how you can go wrong when presuming too much from just ONE source of information only. During our debate I made it clear that we do NOT know exactly when Major General John Disbrowe may have taken over the lands at Eltisley under primogeniture. Was it before his marriage to Jane Cromwell in 1636? I would say that it was. This is because I now know that the James "junior" who was buried at Eltisley churchyard in 1634 and who would have been in line for this land-ownership under primogeniture [note: but then would HE have been that James,...how must we then read the wills below, etc??] is not that OTHER James "junior" who was his father and also contemporary to James the "Elder." This James of the 1634 grave is "likely" to have been that James who was brother to the Major General (he could NOT have been that other "James" who was also a son of James the Elder, and older brother to "our" Thomas Disbrowe of 1625 Eltisley bp). So, what's the big deal? Many sources indicate that the Eltisley lands were owned by the Disbrowes long PRIOR to what we also see often on the record as the lease to Isaak Disbrowe from 1650 to 1653 of "Eltisley Manor" (the rectory or manor house which stands near the church is also known to have been built, it is believed from various village "records" including Sawyer's "olde notes," BY James the "Elder" for his wife Elizabeth Marshall in 1612). While the famous general is also known to have bought this "manor" from Sir Francis Mannock in 1657, and the general then "devised it to his eldest surviving son, Valentine," who held the manor in 1706 but had been succeeded by a John Disbrowe by 1710. According to the Sawyer's "olde notes," again only referred to for my own convenience sake (so also see Henry Waters, etc): "The manor is said to have been devised by John Disbrowe, by will dated 1741, to the two sons of his nephew, William Walford of Bocking, Essex" (curiously, BOCKING is exactly where Samuel Disbrow's own brother-in-law back in Connecticut, who is another of my own ancestors: Rev. James Fitch, came from himself back in olde England as well; ...with both Fitch & Disbrowe marrying Whitfield daus. at the old stone house in Guilford, CT two years apart in 1640's!). Here is what we have in the very early will abstracts for the progenitor Disbrow gens (taken from Johnson/Disbrowe's 1986 "The Disbrowes of Canada & Their English Antecedents"): John Disborowe the Elder of Eltisley , Yoeman (1526?-1574) Will dated 14 September 1574, probated 24 September 1574, bequeathed (1) to son John Disbrow, the freehold lands at Eltisley, but if he dies before his heirs are twenty-one years old [note: isn't it interesting how these old traditions still bear-up with respect to 21 yrs as a designation even today!]., then other son Brunow Disborow is to be trustee of the land; John is to pay annually 40 shillings to John's mother Alice Disborow; (2) to son Bruno, the copyhold land in the manor of Eltisley and to pay a like sum to his mother; (3) to wife Alice, household goods in the manor house of Eltisley [note: "manor house"!], cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry, and grain; (4) to daughter Johane, 40pds; (5) to James Disbrowe (relationship not given [NOTE: this fact is very unfortunate now for us 'moderns' in splitting up the families as we now have, since this demonstrates we cannot be sure of any absolutely obvious blood relation between the two divided-up families later listed under both James jun & sen!]), Sean? in the manor of Burrough [is this related to village of Burrough Green and the Burrowes families at Over also?] on payment of 20pds; (6) to son Bruno, Sean? of parsonage of Eltisley [NOTE: this demonstrates "advowson" also perhaps invvolved here above??]; (7) to every grandchild, 40 shillings; (8) son John, Sean of manor of Eltisley; (9) to sons John and Bruno, the residual; and (10) executors to be John and Bruno. IMPORTANT NOTE ON ABOVE WILL: I have a hand-written footnote at bottom of my abstract copy of above, & as written by a long respected/hard working Disbrow researcher who has indicated she believes that the James noted above so mysteriously also had a SON also named "James," bp c 1580, who had married our "Elizabeth Marshall". Please also note there is yet one more James who is son also to another JOHN, called "younger" in will abstract below! John Disborowe the Younger of Eltisley, Yoeman (c. 1550-1610) Will dated 27 August 1608, and probated on 23 June 1610 [NOTE: he shows up buried 24 May 1610 at Eltis.]; bequeathed (1) Manor of City Camps otherwise Shudy Camps (in Shudy Camps, Horseheath, and Bartlow) to wife Joan until second son Joseph Disbrow reaches 21 years or if he dies to third son Izhak Disborowe at 21 years or if he dies to fourth son Nathaniel Disborowe at 21 years [note: there is a "Joseph Disbrowe" I have from the Calendar of State Papers-Domestic , p. 586 for Comm For Advance of Money on 18 Aug 1645, who holds the Bull tavern owned by a Royalist soldier named Col Ed. Searle---I think this is the SAME "Joseph Disbrowe" since other Eltisley Disbrowes were also holding and "sequestering" the spoils of civil war, including both Isaac and James Disbrowe too!! NOTE #2: could Nath'l, above mentioned in will, also be that Nath'l noted at Over VR, who is clearly having babies well before the Nath'l of Eltisley, who is brother to famous Major General, could possibly have been of age??]; (2) lands in county of Hertford to wife and to son Nathaniel at 21 years; (3) cash legacies to Izhak and Nathaniel and to daughter Sara Disbrowe at marriage or 21 years; (4) cash legacies to children of Alice Pomfrett "my daughter" at 21 years [NOTE: most interestingly, there is this very same "Pomfret" surname among Saffron Walden clan of Hartford's Nicholas Disbrowe too, and also as mentioned in Rose Hobson Disbrowe's will of 1698, widow to Samuel Disbrowe]; to children of Francis Waspe my daughter" at 21 years; to children of eldest son James Disborowe at 21 years; and (5) executrix & residuary legates, wife Joan. Administration granted to wife Joan 2 June 1610.

To List: I found these notes in my research for the family of AMY DISBROW who married WILLIAM SEAMAN. I don't remember having seen this information on the Disbrow Site and thought I would send it to share with you. Bonnie Bryant William Seaman, Pg. 1& Pg. 2 b. 1740-45 in New Jersey m. 1st Amy Disberry m. 2nd Margaret ________________ d. March 26, 1814, in Amity, Washington County, PA Apparently the first wife, Amy Disberry, died in New Jersey before the family moved west. Her name may have been Disbrow, Disborough, Dusenberry, for these variations are found in New Jersey records. HELEN VOGHT "SEAMAN - HUNT - WRIGHT GENEALOGY" Pg. 1 & 2 We expect to prove that the family lived in the vicinity of Hopewell N.J. Miss Helen Vogt found evidence in 1955 that a William Seaman had a tavern and a 98-acre farm in Hopewell in 1780. A clue to Amy Disberry's family may lie in the will of Thomas Burrows, of Hopewell, NJ, dated November 26, 1761, in which he leaves bequeststo his grand-daughters Charity and Rachel Disborough, for these first names and others mentioned in the will are found also in the Williiam Seaman family. The Great Migration Begins Sketches PRESERVED PURITAN THOMAS DESBRE 3 September 1633: "Administration granted to Mr. John Moody of the goods & chattells of Thomas Desbre deceased, & so to remain in his hands, to be accountable for them" [MBCR 1:108]. COMMENTS: The connection with John Moody suggests that Thomas Desbre resided in Roxbury. In 1634 "[Phebe] Disborough the wife of Walter Disborough" was admitted to Roxbury church [RChR 80], and so "Desbre" may be a variant of "Disborough" or "Desborough." RCHR: Roxbury Land and Church Records, Sixth Report of the Boston Record Commissioners (Boston 1884), pp. 74-191 The Great Migration Begins Sketches PRESERVED PURITAN WALTER DISBOROUGH ORIGIN: Saffron Walden, Essex MIGRATION: 1634 FIRST RESIDENCE: Roxbury RETURN TRIPS Possibly returned to England by 1641, when he was not in Roxbury when his wife acted in his place CHURCH MEMBERSHIP: "[blank] Disborough the wife of Walter Disborough" was among those admitted to Roxbury church in 1634 [RChR 80]. ESTATE: On 26 May 1641, "Phebe Disborough in the absence of her husband by his assignment hath sold unto James Morgan two houses and four parcels of land" [RTR 3]. BIRTH: About 1584, son of John and Joan (Kent) Disborough of Saffron Walden, Essex. (In his will of 4 May 1607, "John Dysborowe of Walden" made a bequest to "Walter Dysborowe one other of my sons" [Archdeaconry of Colchester Box 4, #238 (27)]. In her will of 24 [June or July?] 1619, "Johanne Disborowe of Walden, widow," included bequests to "Walter Disborowe my son" and to "the three children of Walter Disborowe viz: Anna, Phebe & John" [Archdeaconry of Colchester Box 8, #178].) DEATH: In or after 1641 [RTR 3], perhaps in England. MARRIAGE: By 1613 Phebe _____. CHILDREN: i ANNA, bp. Saffron Walden 25 April 1613; named in her grandmother's will in 1619; no further record. ii PHEBE, bp. Saffron Walden 2 April 1615; named in her grandmother's will in 1619; no further record. iii MARY, bp. Saffron Walden 8 May 1617; bur. there 8 May 1617. iv JOHN, bp. Saffron Walden 21 June 1618 ("the son of Walter Disberow & Phebe his wife"); bur. there 2 May 1619. v (probably) PETER, b. say 1632; m. Stamford 6 April 1657 Sarah Knapp [TAG 10:112], daughter of NICHOLAS KNAPP [GMB 2:1136]. vi (possibly) HENRY, b. say 1637 (or earlier); m. by about 1662 Margaret _____ (in the 1698 Mamaroneck census are consecutive entries for "Henery Disbrow sein [senior] and his wife Margreet" and "Henery Disbrow june [junior] [and] his wife Mary" [NYGBR 59:104]; on 13 July 1692, "Henry Disbrow Senior and wife Margaret" sold land to "son Benjamin Disbrow" [NYGBR 54:395, citing Westchester County, New York, Land Records B:123]; "Benjamin Disbrow, died Dec. 10, 1733, aged 61" [NYGBR 49:298, citing Stillwell 2:304-5]). ASSOCIATIONS: Walter Disborough's father John was son of Henry Disborough, who was buried at Saffron Walden on 30 May 1559, naming in his will of 20 May 1559 wife Katherine, sons John, William, Henry and Richard, and daughters Margaret and Elizabeth [Archdeaconry of Colchester Box 12, #102]. In his will of 30 March 1610, "William Disberowe of Walden, joiner," named only wife Katherine and "Nicholas Disberowe my son" [Consistory Court of London 7:21]. This Nicholas Disborough married at Saffron Walden on 18 October 1610 Mary Gilbye, and had second child Nicholas baptized there on 16 January 1613/4. In 1962 John Insley Coddington, without benefit of most of this information, speculated that the Nicholas Disborough who appeared in Hartford by 1639 and soon married Mary Brownson was from Saffron Walden, and these records would seem to confirm his hypothesis [TAG 38:208-11], and identify the immigrant as the child baptized early in 1614. Note especially that there was a family tradition of working with wood. William Disborough in his will calls himself joiner. In 1628 and 1629 the elder Nicholas Disborough was paid by the Saffron Walden churchwardens for "mending of the pulpit & a seat" and for "mending of seats & for nails" [Saffron Walden Churchwardens' Accounts, 1623-1756, Essex Record Office D/P 192/5/3]. Nicholas Disborough the immigrant's "usual occupation was that of carpenter or cabinet maker" [TAG 38:209]. For the possibility of more distant connections within the Disborough family, see the sketch of ISAAC DISBOROUGH. COMMENTS: The last record of Walter Disborough in England is in 1619, fifteen years before his arrival in New England, and we have no record that any of his children baptized in Saffron Walden made the trip to New England. Presumably Walter resided elsewhere in England in the 1620s and early 1630s. The evidence for the two proposed sons of Walter who did come to New England, Peter and Henry, is circumstantial, and stronger for Peter than for Henry. Walter had an elder brother Peter, baptized at Saffron Walden on 5 December 1581. On 28 December 1647, "Peter Disborough constituted Jonathan Pope of Roxbury his attorney to receive forty shillings of Griffith Bowen due for wages" [Aspinwall 119]. As for Henry, we know merely that Walter's grandfather was named Henry, and that Henry Disborough of New England resided not far from Peter Disborough (although we have no record that the two men interacted even though both were for many years in Westchester County). If Henry was not a son of Walter, he was very likely closely related in some way.