Hi, you don`t say where he was bapt in 1718......and it may be there is an OPC for that village or the parish registers are online . There may be a note alongside his bapt . It was fairly commonplace for unmarried women to tag their babies with the father`s name , maybe to shame them into paying a contribution to their upkeep or as a reminder of promises not kept !!!! And sometimes the vicar or whoever bapt the baby would note the name of the father alongside the entry . I would rather like to check the name Tender before committing to believing it , as you say its not a common name anywhere which kind of indicates its a mistranscription . life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graeme M Bailey" <graeme@baileynet.com.au> To: <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [DEV] Meaning of "[et populi]" in baptism record? > Thanks James and Terry for assistance :-) > > Does anyone have any other examples of this sort > of entry? ie mother baptising baby with > father's surname? > I have heard of children being given the family > name by common usage but I haven't heard of of the mother > baptizing the baby with the father's name > when he's 'flown the coop' or 'shot through' > or whatever the expression was at that time... > > Has anyone got another example of the use of > this 'et populi' in another baptism that I could look at? > > > Searching Findmypast for surname 'Tender' > found only one record from Devon for the years 1538 - 2005 > and only 19 records for that surname total for the whole of UK > > so it seems to be a very uncommon name? > > > Forename(s):John > Surname:Tender > Year:1708 > Month:May > Day:7 > Father's Forename:William > Mother's Forename:Jane > Mother's Surname: > Birth Day: > Birth Month: > Birth Year: > Dedication:Thrushelton > Place:Plymouth > County:Devon > Page:Archive Ref:686/1 > Notes: > Record source: > Baptism Register - Transcripts Data provider:Plymouth & West Devon > Record Office Collection > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2013-11-28 at 13:36 +0000, James Phillips-Evans wrote: >> Hello Graeme >> >> Yes, I agree with Terry. It's one of the numerous euphemisms denoting an >> illegitimate child - a 'child of the people' with no legal father. >> However, I would imagine that his father may well have been a man named >> John Tender given that middle names (as we understand them) were >> virtually non-existent at that time. Have you looked into the parish >> chest records for the parish? There may be some sort of bastardy >> certificate. >> >> Best wishes >> >> James >> >> _________________________ >> James L. Phillips-Evans, LLB >> Greencourts Research >> > <...> > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

I would like to add that the use of "et populi" is interesting. Most entries I have seen use "illeg(itimate)" or even "bastard child". "Et Populi" means "and the people". Is the vicar saying that he does not believe Mr Tender was the father and perhaps she was the most popular girl in the village. Paul ________________________________ From: elizabeth howard <elizgh@btinternet.com> To: devon@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, 28 November 2013, 17:07 Subject: [DEV] Meaning of "[et populi]" in baptism record?                     Hi,  you don`t say where he was bapt in 1718......and it may be there is an OPC for that village or the parish registers are online .  There may be a note alongside his bapt .      It was fairly commonplace for unmarried women to tag their babies with the father`s name , maybe to shame them into paying a contribution to their upkeep or as a reminder of promises not kept  !!!!  And sometimes the vicar or whoever bapt the baby would note the name of the father alongside the entry .    I would rather like to check the name Tender before committing to believing it , as you say its not a common name anywhere which kind of indicates its a mistranscription . life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graeme M Bailey" <graeme@baileynet.com.au> To: <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [DEV] Meaning of "[et populi]" in baptism record? > Thanks James and Terry for assistance :-) > > Does anyone have any other examples of this sort > of entry? ie mother baptising baby with > father's surname? > I have heard of children being given the family > name by common usage but I haven't heard of of the mother > baptizing the baby with the father's name > when he's 'flown the coop' or 'shot through' > or whatever the expression was at that time... > > Has anyone got another example of the use of > this 'et populi' in another baptism that I could look at? > > > Searching Findmypast for surname 'Tender' > found only one record from Devon for the years 1538 - 2005 > and only 19 records for that surname total for the whole of UK > > so it seems to be a very uncommon name? > > > Forename(s):John > Surname:Tender > Year:1708 > Month:May > Day:7 > Father's Forename:William > Mother's Forename:Jane > Mother's Surname: > Birth Day: > Birth Month: > Birth Year: > Dedication:Thrushelton > Place:Plymouth > County:Devon > Page:Archive Ref:686/1 > Notes: > Record source: > Baptism Register - Transcripts Data provider:Plymouth & West Devon > Record Office Collection > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2013-11-28 at 13:36 +0000, James Phillips-Evans wrote: >> Hello Graeme >> >> Yes, I agree with Terry. It's one of the numerous euphemisms denoting an >> illegitimate child - a 'child of the people' with no legal father. >> However, I would imagine that his father may well have been a man named >> John Tender given that middle names (as we understand them) were >> virtually non-existent at that time. Have you looked into the parish >> chest records for the parish? There may be some sort of bastardy >> certificate. >> >> Best wishes >> >> James >> >> _________________________ >> James L. Phillips-Evans, LLB >> Greencourts Research >> > <...> > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

We must not forget that often the word BASE is often used for illegitimate children. In most cases in Parish Registers, that I've seen, base born children are more than likely to be registered as (name) son/daughter of (females name). Without any mention of any word describing the child's status. Most children in Parish Registers rarely had more than one name until around 200 years ago. It was then down to who ever wrote the Parish Registers what information was entered. Not all Parish Registers were recorded by the Vicar. A close relation of mine Francis Blackmore wrote the Sheldon Parish Registers for 40 years. He was the Parish Clerk as well as principle witness at many a wedding during those 40 years he was parish clerk. I also note that what is entered in Parish Registers isn't always as was originally entered. I have seen instances of the word Bastard and under lined in Parish registers written by another hand. At what time that was written we may never know, it may well have been 100 years later. Unfortunately people can't resist adding often sarcastic remarks. In some instances ripping out pages to hide that one of their ancestors may have been illegitimate. Funny people is the human race, we have to many prejudices. Terry Blackmore OPC, Sheldon, Devon.

On Thu, 2013-11-28 at 17:07 +0000, elizabeth howard wrote: > Hi, you don`t say where he was bapt in 1718......and > it may be there is an OPC for that village or the parish registers are > online . <..> Forename(s):John Tender Surname:Bailey Year:1718 Month:Aug Day:17 Father's Forename:Gartrud (transcription error here) Mother's Forename: Mother's Surname: Birth Day: Birth Month: Birth Year: Dedication:Stoke Damerel Place:Plymouth County:Devon Page:57 Archive Ref:166/3 Notes: Record source:Baptism Register - Transcripts Data provider:Plymouth & West Devon Record Office Collection The image shows in clear handwriting: "John Tender ye son of Gartrud Bailey [et Populi] was baptized on ye 18th of August 1718" So the transcription should read: Forename: John Surname: Tender?, or Bailey? Mothers Forename: Gartrud Mothers Surname: Bailey My other friends who are researching the Bailey family have settled on this chappie, I'm still trying to verify if he is the only option... later, after maybe 1815, the family seems to be settled right in the centre of Plymouth in 10 Morley Lane...