While not wishing to claim that workhouses were ideal, these were early days and we should not judge by current standards. As the century continued the concept of the deserving poor developed as an early form of pension, workhouses offered hospital facilities and the majority receiving parish relief in cities were out paupers receiving what we would now call "tax credit". The apprentice scheme was not only to reduce costs but also gave a child an opportunity for future employment that would not otherwise exist. I have seen admission books that reveal in agricultural areas people would come into the workhouse for a few weeks between the seasonal harvests as conditions in the workhouse were better than outside - at least you were sheltered and fed.. Responsibility for monitoring workhouses was given the Ministry of Health. Correspondence in the MH series in the National Archives includes letters from "customers" complaining about failure to meet minimum standards or failure to observe "human rights". These were not dismissed out of hand and the Ministry could take action against errant Unions that did not change their ways. I would also add that a number of Dickens biographers believe Dickens was not above adding a bit of spin to sell a book. His experiences as a child had made his top priority the avoidance of poverty for him and his family. Similarly the treatment of the "insane" evolved from Bedlam to something akin to sheltered accommodation. Paul -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of elizabeth howard Sent: 04 January 2014 10:47 To: DEVON Subject: [DEV] WORKHOUSE Hi, this tiny entry in the minutes of our local workhouse might clarify for everyone how things happened. "13th Dec 1838. Moved an application to be made to the Poor Law Commissioners for an authority to apprentice out to shoemakers or tailors the following persons , William Wellam, aged 19 an orphan and a dwarf belonging to the parish of Denver . Henry Tingay aged 13 father dead mother dying of consumption belonging to the parish of Stoke Ferry and Samuel Page aged 13 subject to fits father dead belonging to the parish of Watlington. Moved by Mr Press for permission to take into the workhouse for 3 months , two of the children of Robert Bushel of West Dereham a pauper at 12/- per week and at home family consists of himself, his wife, and 6 children oldest 9 years of age the wife expecting to be confined any day . Mr Press stated that he believed the family were starving and that they would not be able to get anyone to assist them in her confinement for want of means. " It makes grim reading but even grimmer to live through . " Resolved that the Poor in the workhouse have roast beef and plumb pudding on Christmas Day ." life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
They were not "early days"; the Poor Law had existed since 1598. I judge not by current standards but from reading some of the numerous reports and classic fiction regarding the workhouses. "Deserving poor" was a purely subjective and highly condescending judgement passed on poor people by the social elite. This was not an early form of pension; people would starve to death in their homes rather than apply to enter as they were such grim places. They did offer rudimentary hospital facilities and were the only such places available to the poor. Outdoor poor relief was abolished in 1832, as being too expensive, when the workhouses were established. Any earlier outdoor relief was in no way akin to a tax credit; it was designed to keep people from keeling over dead from starvation in the streets, only. By law, poor law apprenticeships were for a maximum of 14 and later 17 years; ordinary ones for a maximum of 7 years. Poor Law apprentices were almost always to be trained in 'husbandry' if a boy (becoming an agricultural labourer) after 17 years of free labour. Not much of a career prospect for the future. Girls were to be trained in 'housewifery'; same result as for boys really. The poor law apprentices schemes were designed to take children off the workhouse's books and indeed a clause to that effect was always included in their indentures-the contract between the poor law commissioners and the employer (witnessed by magistrates). Some agricultural labourers did indeed enter the workhouse for brief periods, but that reflects the fact that in the autumn they were sometimes laid off by unscrupulous farmers when labour wasn't needed and left to enter the workhouse or starve (read Hardy). The Ministry of Health wasn't even established until 1919. The minimal welfare state of Lloyd George had been established by then so attitudes were vastly different by this point as people had accepted how abysmal the workhouse system was; they continues to exist for their hospital facilities until 1948. The death rates in workhouses were always much higher than on the streets and some have said that this was kept deliberately so. Workhouses were designed to be cheaper alternatives to the out-relief (or Speenhamland System) and were invented to save money-read the Parliamentary debates for their explicit statements to this effect! Bedlam was the most horrendous place where lunatics (sic) were kept chained to the walls in their own excrement and then exhibited to the public for a fee as curiosities. There was no attempt at treatment and no idea how to do so. Punishment (for misbehaviour, which was linked to mental illness) was corporal and often stated to be a whipping. I do not judge by current standards but it is precisely because it is so easy to interpret what was done through the lens of a modern welfare state that it needs to be born in mind how abysmal the workhouses were, and assessed as such by contemporaries. Jon -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hockie Sent: 04 January 2014 13:04 To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] WORKHOUSE While not wishing to claim that workhouses were ideal, these were early days and we should not judge by current standards. As the century continued the concept of the deserving poor developed as an early form of pension, workhouses offered hospital facilities and the majority receiving parish relief in cities were out paupers receiving what we would now call "tax credit". The apprentice scheme was not only to reduce costs but also gave a child an opportunity for future employment that would not otherwise exist. I have seen admission books that reveal in agricultural areas people would come into the workhouse for a few weeks between the seasonal harvests as conditions in the workhouse were better than outside - at least you were sheltered and fed.. Responsibility for monitoring workhouses was given the Ministry of Health. Correspondence in the MH series in the National Archives includes letters from "customers" complaining about failure to meet minimum standards or failure to observe "human rights". These were not dismissed out of hand and the Ministry could take action against errant Unions that did not change their ways. I would also add that a number of Dickens biographers believe Dickens was not above adding a bit of spin to sell a book. His experiences as a child had made his top priority the avoidance of poverty for him and his family. Similarly the treatment of the "insane" evolved from Bedlam to something akin to sheltered accommodation. Paul -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of elizabeth howard Sent: 04 January 2014 10:47 To: DEVON Subject: [DEV] WORKHOUSE Hi, this tiny entry in the minutes of our local workhouse might clarify for everyone how things happened. "13th Dec 1838. Moved an application to be made to the Poor Law Commissioners for an authority to apprentice out to shoemakers or tailors the following persons , William Wellam, aged 19 an orphan and a dwarf belonging to the parish of Denver . Henry Tingay aged 13 father dead mother dying of consumption belonging to the parish of Stoke Ferry and Samuel Page aged 13 subject to fits father dead belonging to the parish of Watlington. Moved by Mr Press for permission to take into the workhouse for 3 months , two of the children of Robert Bushel of West Dereham a pauper at 12/- per week and at home family consists of himself, his wife, and 6 children oldest 9 years of age the wife expecting to be confined any day . Mr Press stated that he believed the family were starving and that they would not be able to get anyone to assist them in her confinement for want of means. " It makes grim reading but even grimmer to live through . " Resolved that the Poor in the workhouse have roast beef and plumb pudding on Christmas Day ." life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Jon, its a good thing I had had my lunch , reading about the lunatics !!!! I posted this small snippet from our local workhouse minute book because Bev Edmonds had asked about the chargeability of people to the workhouse at Totnes, and it was quite a complicated system. I was anzious that she and others could see how desperate some families were but also what the alternatives were ., and how they were paid for to be in the workhouse. life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Frayne" <jonfrayne@btinternet.com> To: <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [DEV] WORKHOUSE > They were not "early days"; the Poor Law had existed since 1598. I judge > not > by current standards but from reading some of the numerous reports and > classic fiction regarding the workhouses. "Deserving poor" was a purely > subjective and highly condescending judgement passed on poor people by the > social elite. This was not an early form of pension; people would starve > to > death in their homes rather than apply to enter as they were such grim > places. They did offer rudimentary hospital facilities and were the only > such places available to the poor. Outdoor poor relief was abolished in > 1832, as being too expensive, when the workhouses were established. Any > earlier outdoor relief was in no way akin to a tax credit; it was designed > to keep people from keeling over dead from starvation in the streets, > only. > By law, poor law apprenticeships were for a maximum of 14 and later 17 > years; ordinary ones for a maximum of 7 years. Poor Law apprentices were > almost always to be trained in 'husbandry' if a boy (becoming an > agricultural labourer) after 17 years of free labour. Not much of a career > prospect for the future. Girls were to be trained in 'housewifery'; same > result as for boys really. The poor law apprentices schemes were designed > to > take children off the workhouse's books and indeed a clause to that effect > was always included in their indentures-the contract between the poor law > commissioners and the employer (witnessed by magistrates). Some > agricultural > labourers did indeed enter the workhouse for brief periods, but that > reflects the fact that in the autumn they were sometimes laid off by > unscrupulous farmers when labour wasn't needed and left to enter the > workhouse or starve (read Hardy). > > The Ministry of Health wasn't even established until 1919. The minimal > welfare state of Lloyd George had been established by then so attitudes > were > vastly different by this point as people had accepted how abysmal the > workhouse system was; they continues to exist for their hospital > facilities > until 1948. The death rates in workhouses were always much higher than on > the streets and some have said that this was kept deliberately so. > Workhouses were designed to be cheaper alternatives to the out-relief (or > Speenhamland System) and were invented to save money-read the > Parliamentary > debates for their explicit statements to this effect! > > Bedlam was the most horrendous place where lunatics (sic) were kept > chained > to the walls in their own excrement and then exhibited to the public for a > fee as curiosities. There was no attempt at treatment and no idea how to > do > so. Punishment (for misbehaviour, which was linked to mental illness) was > corporal and often stated to be a whipping. > > I do not judge by current standards but it is precisely because it is so > easy to interpret what was done through the lens of a modern welfare state > that it needs to be born in mind how abysmal the workhouses were, and > assessed as such by contemporaries. > > Jon > > -----Original Message----- > From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Hockie > Sent: 04 January 2014 13:04 > To: devon@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DEV] WORKHOUSE > > While not wishing to claim that workhouses were ideal, these were early > days > and we should not judge by current standards. As the century continued the > concept of the deserving poor developed as an early form of pension, > workhouses offered hospital facilities and the majority receiving parish > relief in cities were out paupers receiving what we would now call "tax > credit". The apprentice scheme was not only to reduce costs but also gave > a > child an opportunity for future employment that would not otherwise exist. > I have seen admission books that reveal in agricultural areas people would > come into the workhouse for a few weeks between the seasonal harvests as > conditions in the workhouse were better than outside - at least you were > sheltered and fed.. Responsibility for monitoring workhouses was given the > Ministry of Health. Correspondence in the MH series in the National > Archives > includes letters from "customers" complaining about failure to meet > minimum > standards or failure to observe "human rights". These were not dismissed > out > of hand and the Ministry could take action against errant Unions that did > not change their ways. > I would also add that a number of Dickens biographers believe Dickens was > not above adding a bit of spin to sell a book. His experiences as a child > had made his top priority the avoidance of poverty for him and his family. > > Similarly the treatment of the "insane" evolved from Bedlam to something > akin to sheltered accommodation. > > Paul > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of elizabeth howard > Sent: 04 January 2014 10:47 > To: DEVON > Subject: [DEV] WORKHOUSE > > Hi, this tiny entry in the minutes of our local > workhouse might clarify for everyone how things happened. > "13th Dec 1838. Moved an application to be made to the > Poor Law Commissioners for an authority to apprentice out to shoemakers or > tailors the following persons , William Wellam, aged 19 an orphan and a > dwarf belonging to the parish of Denver . Henry Tingay aged 13 father > dead > mother dying of consumption belonging to the parish of Stoke Ferry and > Samuel Page aged 13 subject to fits father dead belonging to the parish of > Watlington. > Moved by Mr Press for permission to take into the > workhouse for 3 months , two of the children of Robert Bushel of West > Dereham a pauper at 12/- per week and at home family consists of himself, > his wife, and 6 children oldest 9 years of age the wife expecting to be > confined any day . Mr Press stated that he believed the family were > starving > and that they would not be able to get anyone to assist them in her > confinement for want of means. " > It makes grim reading but even grimmer to live through > . " Resolved that the Poor in the workhouse have roast beef and plumb > pudding on Christmas Day ." > > > > > > life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( > http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS > (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( > http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS > (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >
I read Jon's message about the workhouse and "Bedlam" and thought I would share what I found as it seems to show that at least in some Asylums the patients were given some care . A few years ago I found that my great great grandfather's brother Benjamin Duke was buried in Ford Park Cemetery Plymouth but had died in Wiltshire, I sent for his death certificate and found he had died in Fisherton Anger Lunatic Asylum. I was able to obtain a copy of his record from Wiltshire & Swindon Record Office. Benjamin lived in Plymouth and was chargeable to Plymouth, he was sent to Fisherton Anger Lunatic Asylum by a Justice of the Peace. Benjamin was a Smith & Bell Hanger and had been self harming and was suicidal. He was only there for 3 month before he died and his father Solomon Duke brought him back to Plymouth to be buried, of course I do not know the conditions he was kept in but he does seem to have been cared for and continual interest taken in his condition, the following is part of what written about him. " He is of spare habit. Hair brown. Eyes grey. Melancholy expression. Physical exam. of heart and lungs reveals nothing abnormal. Tongue clean and moist. Pulse feeble - of moderate frequency - regular". He doesn't improve and "continues in a very depressed condition". 20th Feb 1872, "This patient remains in a very melancholy state, and is in feeble bodily health". 1st Mar 1872 "This man remains in a very meloncholy state. He is in very feeble bodily health and takes very little food. Ordered to have beef tea and a pint of beer daily. On the 6th March he is diagnosed with bronchitis, given medication, port wine, beef tea, and eggs as he couldn't take solid food. 9th Mar 1872 "Had an attack of Haemoptysis" His medicine was changed, he died,on the 12th. Several others on the page where his admission date and death are recorded returned home and one escaped. Marion
The definitive reference on this must be Peter Higginbotham's excellent website at http://www.workhouses.org.uk/ Many of the buildings still survive and there is a comprehensive listing on this site. The Devon Heritage Centre holds many records which are not available online but from what I have seen these are about the administration rather than recording the individuals. Mike
On 4 Jan 2014 at 14:27, Jonathan Frayne wrote: > Workhouses were > designed to be cheaper alternatives to the out-relief (or Speenhamland System) > and were invented to save money-read the Parliamentary debates for their > explicit statements to this effect! I thought the Speenhamland system was a system of subsidising low agricultural wages out of the ratepayers' pockets. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525
I think that was one of its uses; but that amounts to "out-relief", I think. My experience is that the vast majority of out-relief payments made were to old people and to poor women (usually unmarried) about to give birth, and on those occasions the pressure to name the father could become intense so as to be able to reclaim the payments from him! -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes Sent: 05 January 2014 01:49 To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] WORKHOUSE On 4 Jan 2014 at 14:27, Jonathan Frayne wrote: > Workhouses were > designed to be cheaper alternatives to the out-relief (or Speenhamland > System) and were invented to save money-read the Parliamentary debates > for their explicit statements to this effect! I thought the Speenhamland system was a system of subsidising low agricultural wages out of the ratepayers' pockets. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525 ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
While the various poor laws were not implemented equally across the country, they were not all hell holes. Just to clarify: 1. I intended early days to apply the 1834 Act, but all legislation was intended to solve problems that still vex the current government 2. Deserving poor was not subjective. It was aimed at the non able-bodied. The 1834 Act exempted the old and the infirm who could continue to receive out relief. 3. Apprenticeships were not necessarily the best form of education but they offered some form of training and abuses were the subject of a number of enquires by the Poor Law Commission 4. The reference to the Ministry of Health was intended to include its predecessor and successors. For example correspondence from 1833 to 1909 with the Poor Law Commission is in the National Archives series MH12 which has a number of documents available to download for free. 5. With reference to lunatics. At the time it was used as a medical description and remained so for well into the 20th century. From the 1850s people like Dr Andrew Reed at Earlsfield and Dr Langdon Down at Normansfield started to classify and categorise the causes of lunacy and open hospitals offering occupational therapy based on scientific investigation. Admittedly these were fee paying establishments with a few free places, but they sowed the seeds. Ironically the first strike at a National Health hospital was at the newly nationalised Normansfield when the governors wanted to change from therapy to ECT and drugs. Dr Langdon Down was, of course, a Devon Man It is worth visiting Peter Higginbothams site www.workhouses.org for a well-researched look at workhouses behind the headlines It will be interesting to see how history judges post WW2 British society and protection of the less fortunate. Paul