Hi Mike, If people are wondering why they have a naval ancestor and can't find pension records, can I just draw their attention to the National Archives information about the RN ratings pensions: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-navy-ratings-pensions/ Note that Paragraph 3 states "It was not until 1859 that pensions for service were granted automatically to all ratings who had served for 20 consecutive years in the Royal Navy. Up to 1859 there was no guarantee that a rating would receive a pension for service. Before then, pensions were rarely awarded to ratings unless they had been wounded or killed in action or on duty." Joy ----Original message---- From : mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk Date : 30/10/2018 - 09:35 (GMT) To : devon@rootsweb.com Subject : [DEV] Re: DEV] Re: WILLS Hi Elizabeth, If we're talking about the Army or the Navy, then there were pensions. An Army pensioner was called a Chelsea pensioner and the navy had Greenwich pensioners. If they didn't actually live at Chelsea or Greenwich, they were called out-pensioners. This was true throughout the 19th century, so would have applied at the time being discussed here. Best wishes Mike Gould Leicestershire

Hi Joy, Good point. It appears to have been different in the Army, as I have a guy whose pension has been calculated based on the number of weeks at one rank plus the number at another, so all very complicated. Best wishes Mike -----Original Message----- From: Joy Langdon via DEVON [mailto:devon@rootsweb.com] Sent: 31 October 2018 18:50 To: devon@rootsweb.com Cc: Joy Langdon Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Hi Mike, If people are wondering why they have a naval ancestor and can't find pension records, can I just draw their attention to the National Archives information about the RN ratings pensions: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/r oyal-navy-ratings-pensions/ Note that Paragraph 3 states "It was not until 1859 that pensions for service were granted automatically to all ratings who had served for 20 consecutive years in the Royal Navy. Up to 1859 there was no guarantee that a rating would receive a pension for service. Before then, pensions were rarely awarded to ratings unless they had been wounded or killed in action or on duty." Joy ----Original message---- From : mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk Date : 30/10/2018 - 09:35 (GMT) To : devon@rootsweb.com Subject : [DEV] Re: DEV] Re: WILLS Hi Elizabeth, If we're talking about the Army or the Navy, then there were pensions. An Army pensioner was called a Chelsea pensioner and the navy had Greenwich pensioners. If they didn't actually live at Chelsea or Greenwich, they were called out-pensioners. This was true throughout the 19th century, so would have applied at the time being discussed here. Best wishes Mike Gould Leicestershire _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

And if you come across a naval pensioner's assessment you will find that it is very similar, and rather interestingly, was assessed using the lunar calendar, as was naval pay at one time, but for warrant officers who started off life as ratings, periods spent on board ships in ordinary (ie in reserve), in harbour, pensions were assessed at a reduced rate compared with time spent serving on board sea-going vessels, not forgetting that there were no shore establishments in those days. Paul On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 03:48:58 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Joy, > >Good point. It appears to have been different in the Army, as I have a guy >whose pension has been calculated based on the number of weeks at one rank >plus the number at another, so all very complicated. > >Best wishes > >Mike > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joy Langdon via DEVON [mailto:devon@rootsweb.com] >Sent: 31 October 2018 18:50 >To: devon@rootsweb.com >Cc: Joy Langdon >Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions > >Hi Mike, > >If people are wondering why they have a naval ancestor and can't find >pension records, can I just draw their attention to the National Archives >information about the RN ratings pensions: >http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/r >oyal-navy-ratings-pensions/ > >Note that Paragraph 3 states "It was not until 1859 that pensions for >service were granted automatically to all ratings who had served for 20 >consecutive years in the Royal Navy. Up to 1859 there was no guarantee that >a rating would receive a pension for service. Before then, pensions were >rarely awarded to ratings unless they had been wounded or killed in action >or on duty." > >Joy >----Original message---- >From : mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk >Date : 30/10/2018 - 09:35 (GMT) >To : devon@rootsweb.com >Subject : [DEV] Re: DEV] Re: WILLS > >Hi Elizabeth, > >If we're talking about the Army or the Navy, then there were pensions. An >Army pensioner was called a Chelsea pensioner and the navy had Greenwich >pensioners. If they didn't actually live at Chelsea or Greenwich, they were >called out-pensioners. This was true throughout the 19th century, so would >have applied at the time being discussed here. > >Best wishes > >Mike Gould >Leicestershire > > >_______________________________________________ >------------------------------------------ >The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS >(http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >community > >_______________________________________________ >------------------------------------------ >The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Hi Paul There were only four people permanently employed on a ship laid up in ordinary (no matter how large it was): The sailmaker, the gunner, the boatswain (for the rigging) and the carpenter. Officers were on half pay (as were these warrant officers) awaiting a commission to a ship. The men were otherwise in the merchant trade (as indeed were many junior officers!). Nelson spent quite a lot of time in the merchant service in his early years as half pay was very little for a lieutenant without private income. The Navy regarded it as a means of their officers learning new skills and new places. BTW All commissioned officers got half pay when not employed. An admiral who was not going to be further employed became what was known as a ‘yellow’ admiral and there are lists in TNA. This was a polite fiction to allow for newer officers to be employed rather than constantly snub the older ones by not appointing them to tasks their seniority would otherwise have ‘entitled’ them to seek. Older captains were just expected to swallow their pride and accept they were no longer employable (got one of them in my family tree) and remain on half-pay until you died as a form of pension if not otherwise granted one. They were called superannuated which chimes in with more modern terminology. Jon Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Paul Benyon Sent: 01 November 2018 09:01 To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions And if you come across a naval pensioner's assessment you will find that it is very similar, and rather interestingly, was assessed using the lunar calendar, as was naval pay at one time, but for warrant officers who started off life as ratings, periods spent on board ships in ordinary (ie in reserve), in harbour, pensions were assessed at a reduced rate compared with time spent serving on board sea-going vessels, not forgetting that there were no shore establishments in those days. Paul On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 03:48:58 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Joy, > >Good point. It appears to have been different in the Army, as I have a guy >whose pension has been calculated based on the number of weeks at one rank >plus the number at another, so all very complicated. > >Best wishes > >Mike > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joy Langdon via DEVON [mailto:devon@rootsweb.com] >Sent: 31 October 2018 18:50 >To: devon@rootsweb.com >Cc: Joy Langdon >Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions > >Hi Mike, > >If people are wondering why they have a naval ancestor and can't find >pension records, can I just draw their attention to the National Archives >information about the RN ratings pensions: >http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/r >oyal-navy-ratings-pensions/ > >Note that Paragraph 3 states "It was not until 1859 that pensions for >service were granted automatically to all ratings who had served for 20 >consecutive years in the Royal Navy. Up to 1859 there was no guarantee that >a rating would receive a pension for service. Before then, pensions were >rarely awarded to ratings unless they had been wounded or killed in action >or on duty." > >Joy >----Original message---- >From : mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk >Date : 30/10/2018 - 09:35 (GMT) >To : devon@rootsweb.com >Subject : [DEV] Re: DEV] Re: WILLS > >Hi Elizabeth, > >If we're talking about the Army or the Navy, then there were pensions. An >Army pensioner was called a Chelsea pensioner and the navy had Greenwich >pensioners. If they didn't actually live at Chelsea or Greenwich, they were >called out-pensioners. This was true throughout the 19th century, so would >have applied at the time being discussed here. > >Best wishes > >Mike Gould >Leicestershire > > >_______________________________________________ >------------------------------------------ >The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS >(http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >community > >_______________________________________________ >------------------------------------------ >The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Jon I didn't want to go off topic so much, but for the record per Prof N.A.M. Rodger in his book Naval Records for Genealogists : Among the warrant officers the Boatswain, Cook, Purser, Gunner and Carpenter were distinguished as `standing officers', in principle warranted to a ship for her lifetime regardless of whether she were in commission or not &c. &c., and by me ; one shouldn't forget the men who actually carried out much of the day to day maintenance, their numbers depending on the rating of the vessel. Paul On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:15:05 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Paul > >There were only four people permanently employed on a ship laid up in ordinary (no matter how large it was): >The sailmaker, the gunner, the boatswain (for the rigging) and the carpenter. >Officers were on half pay (as were these warrant officers) awaiting a commission to a ship. The men were otherwise in the merchant trade (as indeed were many junior officers!). Nelson spent quite a lot of time in the merchant service in his early years as half pay was very little for a lieutenant without private income. The Navy regarded it as a means of their officers learning new skills and new places. BTW All commissioned officers got half pay when not employed. An admiral who was not going to be further employed became what was known as a ‘yellow’ admiral and there are lists in TNA. This was a polite fiction to allow for newer officers to be employed rather than constantly snub the older ones by not appointing them to tasks their seniority would otherwise have ‘entitled’ them to seek. Older captains were just expected to swallow their pride and accept they were no longer employable (got one of them in my family tree) and remain on half-pay until you died as a form of pension if >not otherwise granted one. They were called superannuated which chimes in with more modern terminology. > >Jon > >Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >From: Paul Benyon >Sent: 01 November 2018 09:01 >To: devon@rootsweb.com >Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions > > >And if you come across a naval pensioner's assessment you will find >that it is very similar, and rather interestingly, was assessed using >the lunar calendar, as was naval pay at one time, but for warrant >officers who started off life as ratings, periods spent on board ships >in ordinary (ie in reserve), in harbour, pensions were assessed at a >reduced rate compared with time spent serving on board sea-going >vessels, not forgetting that there were no shore establishments in >those days. > >Paul > >On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 03:48:58 +0000, you wrote: > >>Hi Joy, >> >>Good point. It appears to have been different in the Army, as I have a guy >>whose pension has been calculated based on the number of weeks at one rank >>plus the number at another, so all very complicated. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Mike >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Joy Langdon via DEVON [mailto:devon@rootsweb.com] >>Sent: 31 October 2018 18:50 >>To: devon@rootsweb.com >>Cc: Joy Langdon >>Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions >> >>Hi Mike, >> >>If people are wondering why they have a naval ancestor and can't find >>pension records, can I just draw their attention to the National Archives >>information about the RN ratings pensions: >>http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/r >>oyal-navy-ratings-pensions/ >> >>Note that Paragraph 3 states "It was not until 1859 that pensions for >>service were granted automatically to all ratings who had served for 20 >>consecutive years in the Royal Navy. Up to 1859 there was no guarantee that >>a rating would receive a pension for service. Before then, pensions were >>rarely awarded to ratings unless they had been wounded or killed in action >>or on duty." >> >>Joy >>----Original message---- >>From : mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk >>Date : 30/10/2018 - 09:35 (GMT) >>To : devon@rootsweb.com >>Subject : [DEV] Re: DEV] Re: WILLS >> >>Hi Elizabeth, >> >>If we're talking about the Army or the Navy, then there were pensions. An >>Army pensioner was called a Chelsea pensioner and the navy had Greenwich >>pensioners. If they didn't actually live at Chelsea or Greenwich, they were >>called out-pensioners. This was true throughout the 19th century, so would >>have applied at the time being discussed here. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Mike Gould >>Leicestershire >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>------------------------------------------ >>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >>http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS >>(http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >>_______________________________________________ >>Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >>Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >>Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >>community >> >>_______________________________________________ >>------------------------------------------ >>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >>http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >>_______________________________________________ >>Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >>Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >>Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community >50° 33' N, 2° 26' W >http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > >_______________________________________________ >------------------------------------------ >The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Oh I forgot the Cook-how stupid is that! Prof Rodger also wrote a very readable account of the Georgian Navy called ‘Wooden Walls’ and of course the formal history of the Navy in two volumes. Jon Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Paul Benyon Sent: 01 November 2018 12:26 To: Jonathan Frayne Cc: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Jon I didn't want to go off topic so much, but for the record per Prof N.A.M. Rodger in his book Naval Records for Genealogists : Among the warrant officers the Boatswain, Cook, Purser, Gunner and Carpenter were distinguished as `standing officers', in principle warranted to a ship for her lifetime regardless of whether she were in commission or not &c. &c., and by me ; one shouldn't forget the men who actually carried out much of the day to day maintenance, their numbers depending on the rating of the vessel. Paul On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:15:05 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Paul > >There were only four people permanently employed on a ship laid up in ordinary (no matter how large it was): >The sailmaker, the gunner, the boatswain (for the rigging) and the carpenter. >Officers were on half pay (as were these warrant officers) awaiting a commission to a ship. The men were otherwise in the merchant trade (as indeed were many junior officers!). Nelson spent quite a lot of time in the merchant service in his early years as half pay was very little for a lieutenant without private income. The Navy regarded it as a means of their officers learning new skills and new places. BTW All commissioned officers got half pay when not employed. An admiral who was not going to be further employed became what was known as a ‘yellow’ admiral and there are lists in TNA. This was a polite fiction to allow for newer officers to be employed rather than constantly snub the older ones by not appointing them to tasks their seniority would otherwise have ‘entitled’ them to seek. Older captains were just expected to swallow their pride and accept they were no longer employable (got one of them in my family tree) and remain on half-pay until you died as a form of pension if >not otherwise granted one. They were called superannuated which chimes in with more modern terminology. > >Jon > >Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >From: Paul Benyon >Sent: 01 November 2018 09:01 >To: devon@rootsweb.com >Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions > > >And if you come across a naval pensioner's assessment you will find >that it is very similar, and rather interestingly, was assessed using >the lunar calendar, as was naval pay at one time, but for warrant >officers who started off life as ratings, periods spent on board ships >in ordinary (ie in reserve), in harbour, pensions were assessed at a >reduced rate compared with time spent serving on board sea-going >vessels, not forgetting that there were no shore establishments in >those days. > >Paul > >On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 03:48:58 +0000, you wrote: > >>Hi Joy, >> >>Good point. It appears to have been different in the Army, as I have a guy >>whose pension has been calculated based on the number of weeks at one rank >>plus the number at another, so all very complicated. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Mike >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Joy Langdon via DEVON [mailto:devon@rootsweb.com] >>Sent: 31 October 2018 18:50 >>To: devon@rootsweb.com >>Cc: Joy Langdon >>Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions >> >>Hi Mike, >> >>If people are wondering why they have a naval ancestor and can't find >>pension records, can I just draw their attention to the National Archives >>information about the RN ratings pensions: >>http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/r >>oyal-navy-ratings-pensions/ >> >>Note that Paragraph 3 states "It was not until 1859 that pensions for >>service were granted automatically to all ratings who had served for 20 >>consecutive years in the Royal Navy. Up to 1859 there was no guarantee that >>a rating would receive a pension for service. Before then, pensions were >>rarely awarded to ratings unless they had been wounded or killed in action >>or on duty." >> >>Joy >>----Original message---- >>From : mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk >>Date : 30/10/2018 - 09:35 (GMT) >>To : devon@rootsweb.com >>Subject : [DEV] Re: DEV] Re: WILLS >> >>Hi Elizabeth, >> >>If we're talking about the Army or the Navy, then there were pensions. An >>Army pensioner was called a Chelsea pensioner and the navy had Greenwich >>pensioners. If they didn't actually live at Chelsea or Greenwich, they were >>called out-pensioners. This was true throughout the 19th century, so would >>have applied at the time being discussed here. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Mike Gould >>Leicestershire >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>------------------------------------------ >>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >>http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS >>(http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >>_______________________________________________ >>Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >>Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >>Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >>community >> >>_______________________________________________ >>------------------------------------------ >>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >>http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >>_______________________________________________ >>Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >>Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >>Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community >50° 33' N, 2° 26' W >http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > >_______________________________________________ >------------------------------------------ >The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Hi all, I haven't been following this thread from the start, but was interested in the reference to the N.A.M. Rodger book so googled and found it was called" The Wooden World: An Anatomy of the Georgian Navy" published 1996. Lots of copies available online at reasonable cost. It looks like a really good read to get a feel for life on board - I have a ships surgeon based out of Bristol but they seemed to turn up in many of the southern ports on their travels! Thanks for the tip! Amanda, NZ Regards, Amanda Kerby 112 Englefield Road Northwood Christchurch 8051 NEW ZEALAND Ph: (03) 261 9142 Mob: 027 3023562 -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Frayne <jon.frayne@gmail.com> Sent: 06 November 2018 04:25 To: pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com Cc: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Oh I forgot the Cook-how stupid is that! Prof Rodger also wrote a very readable account of the Georgian Navy called ‘Wooden Walls’ and of course the formal history of the Navy in two volumes. Jon Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Paul Benyon Sent: 01 November 2018 12:26 To: Jonathan Frayne Cc: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Jon I didn't want to go off topic so much, but for the record per Prof N.A.M. Rodger in his book Naval Records for Genealogists : Among the warrant officers the Boatswain, Cook, Purser, Gunner and Carpenter were distinguished as `standing officers', in principle warranted to a ship for her lifetime regardless of whether she were in commission or not &c. &c., and by me ; one shouldn't forget the men who actually carried out much of the day to day maintenance, their numbers depending on the rating of the vessel. Paul On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:15:05 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Paul > >There were only four people permanently employed on a ship laid up in ordinary (no matter how large it was): >The sailmaker, the gunner, the boatswain (for the rigging) and the carpenter. >Officers were on half pay (as were these warrant officers) awaiting a >commission to a ship. The men were otherwise in the merchant trade (as indeed were many junior officers!). Nelson spent quite a lot of time in the merchant service in his early years as half pay was very little for a lieutenant without private income. The Navy regarded it as a means of their officers learning new skills and new places. BTW All commissioned officers got half pay when not employed. An admiral who was not going to be further employed became what was known as a ‘yellow’ admiral and there are lists in TNA. This was a polite fiction to allow for newer officers to be employed rather than constantly snub the older ones by not appointing them to tasks their seniority would otherwise have ‘entitled’ them to seek. Older captains were just expected to swallow their pride and accept they were no longer employable (got one of them in my family tree) and remain on half-pay until you died as a form of pension if not otherwise granted one. They were called superannuated which chimes in with more modern terminology. > >Jon > >Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >From: Paul Benyon >Sent: 01 November 2018 09:01 >To: devon@rootsweb.com >Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions > > >And if you come across a naval pensioner's assessment you will find >that it is very similar, and rather interestingly, was assessed using >the lunar calendar, as was naval pay at one time, but for warrant >officers who started off life as ratings, periods spent on board ships >in ordinary (ie in reserve), in harbour, pensions were assessed at a >reduced rate compared with time spent serving on board sea-going >vessels, not forgetting that there were no shore establishments in >those days. > >Paul > >On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 03:48:58 +0000, you wrote: > >>Hi Joy, >> >>Good point. It appears to have been different in the Army, as I have >>a guy whose pension has been calculated based on the number of weeks >>at one rank plus the number at another, so all very complicated. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Mike >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Joy Langdon via DEVON [mailto:devon@rootsweb.com] >>Sent: 31 October 2018 18:50 >>To: devon@rootsweb.com >>Cc: Joy Langdon >>Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions >> >>Hi Mike, >> >>If people are wondering why they have a naval ancestor and can't find >>pension records, can I just draw their attention to the National >>Archives information about the RN ratings pensions: >>http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-gu >>ides/r >>oyal-navy-ratings-pensions/ >> >>Note that Paragraph 3 states "It was not until 1859 that pensions for >>service were granted automatically to all ratings who had served for >>20 consecutive years in the Royal Navy. Up to 1859 there was no >>guarantee that a rating would receive a pension for service. Before >>then, pensions were rarely awarded to ratings unless they had been >>wounded or killed in action or on duty." >> >>Joy >>----Original message---- >>From : mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk >>Date : 30/10/2018 - 09:35 (GMT) >>To : devon@rootsweb.com >>Subject : [DEV] Re: DEV] Re: WILLS >> >>Hi Elizabeth, >> >>If we're talking about the Army or the Navy, then there were pensions. >>An Army pensioner was called a Chelsea pensioner and the navy had >>Greenwich pensioners. If they didn't actually live at Chelsea or >>Greenwich, they were called out-pensioners. This was true throughout >>the 19th century, so would have applied at the time being discussed here. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Mike Gould >>Leicestershire >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>------------------------------------------ >>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >>http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS >>(http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >>_______________________________________________ >>Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe >>https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >>Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal >>RootsWeb community >> >>_______________________________________________ >>------------------------------------------ >>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >>http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >>_______________________________________________ >>Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe >>https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >>Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal >>RootsWeb community >50° 33' N, 2° 26' W >http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > >_______________________________________________ >------------------------------------------ >The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe >https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb >is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >community 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Quite right, It was Wooden World not Walls-mixing myself up with the Athenians, I suspect! Jon Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Amanda Kerby Sent: 07 November 2018 09:22 To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Hi all, I haven't been following this thread from the start, but was interested in the reference to the N.A.M. Rodger book so googled and found it was called" The Wooden World: An Anatomy of the Georgian Navy" published 1996. Lots of copies available online at reasonable cost. It looks like a really good read to get a feel for life on board - I have a ships surgeon based out of Bristol but they seemed to turn up in many of the southern ports on their travels! Thanks for the tip! Amanda, NZ Regards, Amanda Kerby 112 Englefield Road Northwood Christchurch 8051 NEW ZEALAND Ph: (03) 261 9142 Mob: 027 3023562 -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Frayne <jon.frayne@gmail.com> Sent: 06 November 2018 04:25 To: pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com Cc: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Oh I forgot the Cook-how stupid is that! Prof Rodger also wrote a very readable account of the Georgian Navy called ‘Wooden Walls’ and of course the formal history of the Navy in two volumes. Jon Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Paul Benyon Sent: 01 November 2018 12:26 To: Jonathan Frayne Cc: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Jon I didn't want to go off topic so much, but for the record per Prof N.A.M. Rodger in his book Naval Records for Genealogists : Among the warrant officers the Boatswain, Cook, Purser, Gunner and Carpenter were distinguished as `standing officers', in principle warranted to a ship for her lifetime regardless of whether she were in commission or not &c. &c., and by me ; one shouldn't forget the men who actually carried out much of the day to day maintenance, their numbers depending on the rating of the vessel. Paul On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 09:15:05 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Paul > >There were only four people permanently employed on a ship laid up in ordinary (no matter how large it was): >The sailmaker, the gunner, the boatswain (for the rigging) and the carpenter. >Officers were on half pay (as were these warrant officers) awaiting a >commission to a ship. The men were otherwise in the merchant trade (as indeed were many junior officers!). Nelson spent quite a lot of time in the merchant service in his early years as half pay was very little for a lieutenant without private income. The Navy regarded it as a means of their officers learning new skills and new places. BTW All commissioned officers got half pay when not employed. An admiral who was not going to be further employed became what was known as a ‘yellow’ admiral and there are lists in TNA. This was a polite fiction to allow for newer officers to be employed rather than constantly snub the older ones by not appointing them to tasks their seniority would otherwise have ‘entitled’ them to seek. Older captains were just expected to swallow their pride and accept they were no longer employable (got one of them in my family tree) and remain on half-pay until you died as a form of pension if not otherwise granted one. They were called superannuated which chimes in with more modern terminology. > >Jon > >Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >From: Paul Benyon >Sent: 01 November 2018 09:01 >To: devon@rootsweb.com >Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions > > >And if you come across a naval pensioner's assessment you will find >that it is very similar, and rather interestingly, was assessed using >the lunar calendar, as was naval pay at one time, but for warrant >officers who started off life as ratings, periods spent on board ships >in ordinary (ie in reserve), in harbour, pensions were assessed at a >reduced rate compared with time spent serving on board sea-going >vessels, not forgetting that there were no shore establishments in >those days. > >Paul > >On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 03:48:58 +0000, you wrote: > >>Hi Joy, >> >>Good point. It appears to have been different in the Army, as I have >>a guy whose pension has been calculated based on the number of weeks >>at one rank plus the number at another, so all very complicated. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Mike >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Joy Langdon via DEVON [mailto:devon@rootsweb.com] >>Sent: 31 October 2018 18:50 >>To: devon@rootsweb.com >>Cc: Joy Langdon >>Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions >> >>Hi Mike, >> >>If people are wondering why they have a naval ancestor and can't find >>pension records, can I just draw their attention to the National >>Archives information about the RN ratings pensions: >>http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-gu >>ides/r >>oyal-navy-ratings-pensions/ >> >>Note that Paragraph 3 states "It was not until 1859 that pensions for >>service were granted automatically to all ratings who had served for >>20 consecutive years in the Royal Navy. Up to 1859 there was no >>guarantee that a rating would receive a pension for service. Before >>then, pensions were rarely awarded to ratings unless they had been >>wounded or killed in action or on duty." >> >>Joy >>----Original message---- >>From : mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk >>Date : 30/10/2018 - 09:35 (GMT) >>To : devon@rootsweb.com >>Subject : [DEV] Re: DEV] Re: WILLS >> >>Hi Elizabeth, >> >>If we're talking about the Army or the Navy, then there were pensions. >>An Army pensioner was called a Chelsea pensioner and the navy had >>Greenwich pensioners. If they didn't actually live at Chelsea or >>Greenwich, they were called out-pensioners. This was true throughout >>the 19th century, so would have applied at the time being discussed here. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Mike Gould >>Leicestershire >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>------------------------------------------ >>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >>http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS >>(http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >>_______________________________________________ >>Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe >>https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >>Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal >>RootsWeb community >> >>_______________________________________________ >>------------------------------------------ >>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >>http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >>_______________________________________________ >>Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe >>https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >>Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal >>RootsWeb community >50° 33' N, 2° 26' W >http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > >_______________________________________________ >------------------------------------------ >The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe >https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb >is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >community 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Not knowing anything about the navy but having naval ancestors can I ask a question of Jon and Paul please? Can I infer from your e-mails last week that a boatswain was one of four people who would be paid even when the ship is not sailing? Also, if a ship was no longer being used, might you still refer to yourself as being a boatswain on that ship after it had been decommissioned. I am thinking of someone in the early 1800s Apologies if I am misinterpreting Best wishes and thanks Pauline

>>Can I infer from your e-mails last week that a boatswain was one of four people who would be paid even when the ship is not sailing? Yes, and thanks again to prof Rodger, he advises that while a ship was out of commission they were borne and paid on the Ordinary books of the yard (ADM 42), from which they are shown as turned-over on the commissioning of the ship. In theory, at least, these officers were already on board, and the turn-over a purely administrative change. So most standing officers would be standing by ships in Ordinary at Plymouth / Portsmouth / Chatham / Deptford / Sheerness, as appropriate, to find your Boatswain's service on board his ship you'd need to find the appropriate volume of ADM 42 So, in an attempt to keep it on topic, and relative to Devon if you do a search on the National Archives web site : http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ and if we think your Boatswain is serving on board a ship in ordinary (in reserve) at Plymouth you can use the following to search for him : adm 42 Plymouth Pay Books and then narrow the search down to your period of interest, and chose the appropriate yard, volume and date.......if you can get the hang of it you will probably find the advanced search your best option, since you should be able to narrow the period down. HTH Paul PS I doubt you will find Devonport useful as a part of your search as it only seems to pick up "Dockyard craft" from later in the 19th Century. On Mon, 5 Nov 2018 13:10:33 +0000, you wrote: > > >Not knowing anything about the navy but having naval ancestors can I ask a question of Jon and Paul please? > >Can I infer from your e-mails last week that a boatswain was one of four people who would be paid even when the ship is not sailing? > >Also, if a ship was no longer being used, might you still refer to yourself as being a boatswain on that ship after it had been decommissioned. >I am thinking of someone in the early 1800s > >Apologies if I am misinterpreting >Best wishes and thanks >Pauline > >_______________________________________________ >------------------------------------------ >The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

All I can add to Paul’s commendable answer is that it depends quite what you mean by ‘decommissioned’. If the ship had been taken out of service ready for being broken up/turned into a hulk then I don’t think the ship would have a boatswain. If just being held in reserve pending the next war with France, then it would. The title would also stay with the person-so a person would be rated as a boatswain (usually by holding a warrant from the admiralty) and the ship would have a boatswain. It was five people as Paul pointed out, who held permanent positions in a ship. I suspect that in a large vessel they would also have had one or more ‘mates’ to help out with the work of maintaining the ship. JOn Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: sieler_pauline Sent: 05 November 2018 13:10 To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Not knowing anything about the navy but having naval ancestors can I ask a question of Jon and Paul please? Can I infer from your e-mails last week that a boatswain was one of four people who would be paid even when the ship is not sailing? Also, if a ship was no longer being used, might you still refer to yourself as being a boatswain on that ship after it had been decommissioned. I am thinking of someone in the early 1800s Apologies if I am misinterpreting Best wishes and thanks Pauline _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi Being charitable to the Navy (not sure if I need to be!), if you had served on a ship you had a set of skills tat could be immediately transferred to the merchant marine where you could get paid a lot more than in the service of the crown. Hence, pensions were reserved for the injured and disabled-its worth remembering also that about 90% of injuries in the Royal Navy were from the heavy work (hernias), disease (scurvy, in particular)and from accidents (falls). You had to be very unlucky indeed to actually be hurt in a battle (on average that is). Jon Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Mike Gould Sent: 01 November 2018 03:49 To: joy.langdon@btinternet.com; devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Hi Joy, Good point. It appears to have been different in the Army, as I have a guy whose pension has been calculated based on the number of weeks at one rank plus the number at another, so all very complicated. Best wishes Mike -----Original Message----- From: Joy Langdon via DEVON [mailto:devon@rootsweb.com] Sent: 31 October 2018 18:50 To: devon@rootsweb.com Cc: Joy Langdon Subject: [DEV] Re: Naval pensions Hi Mike, If people are wondering why they have a naval ancestor and can't find pension records, can I just draw their attention to the National Archives information about the RN ratings pensions: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/r oyal-navy-ratings-pensions/ Note that Paragraph 3 states "It was not until 1859 that pensions for service were granted automatically to all ratings who had served for 20 consecutive years in the Royal Navy. Up to 1859 there was no guarantee that a rating would receive a pension for service. Before then, pensions were rarely awarded to ratings unless they had been wounded or killed in action or on duty." Joy ----Original message---- From : mike.gould@ndirect.co.uk Date : 30/10/2018 - 09:35 (GMT) To : devon@rootsweb.com Subject : [DEV] Re: DEV] Re: WILLS Hi Elizabeth, If we're talking about the Army or the Navy, then there were pensions. An Army pensioner was called a Chelsea pensioner and the navy had Greenwich pensioners. If they didn't actually live at Chelsea or Greenwich, they were called out-pensioners. This was true throughout the 19th century, so would have applied at the time being discussed here. Best wishes Mike Gould Leicestershire _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/devon@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community