I know the feeling, Paul - if only people would leave us alone to do our "thing"!! No respect for serious activity!!<g> My grandson says the same thing about having to leave video games to come for supper!! I think it falls under "perspective". Sher On 11/7/2019 1:33 PM, Paul Hockie via DEVON wrote: > Nancy, > > Migration Charts existed long before DNA. Language is one way, the spread of the words for mother, water and some other basic concepts have been studied, cave drawings in Arizona match those in France, fashion, archaeological finds, diet, even styles of flint napping. DNA is all about comparing samples of known provenance preferably using the latest tools. I am not sure whether Ancestry is aware of this. The Welcome Trust, universities and other professional laboratories do work to the highest standards but the older (and smaller) the DNA sample the bigger the need for corroborating non-DNA evidence until they can identify unique DNA strands to the accuracy of carbon dating or tree dating. > > Sorry about the sentences - I keep getting interrupted and loose the thread. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nancy Frey [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 06 November 2019 22:53 > To: [email protected] > Cc: Paul Hockie > Subject: Re: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA > > Paul you just made my day! Even my daily Garfield cartoon didn't > elicit the chuckles that some of your comments did, but please -- can > we have shorter paragraphs? I nearly ran out of breath. > > Since you didn't <snip> I finally read the article that Jane was > referring to, which I admit I should have done when she first posted. > There is nowhere in that article that tells me what DNA tests they did > or where. However, the Welcome Trust is well known to me as a source > for immaculate work, so I think they probably did all the correct > tests and spared no expense. > > Unless you've followed some of the DNA migration charts, you cannot > possibly imagine how many ways DNA gets from l one country to another. > And I believe that's what Professor Mark Robinson (an archaeologist on > the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History) was > trying to get across to his readers. Note, his article was published > in a Nature Journal. > > For Cards of any sort (not just Christmas Cards) I highly recommend > Jacquie Lawson's inexpensive site at https://www.jacquielawson.com/. > I think its about 10 GPB ($12 Cdn) a year to send as many cards as you > want and they are the best cards available on the internet IMO. > > Cheers, > > Nancy Frey, > Windsor, ON, Canada > OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset > [email protected] > > On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Paul Hockie via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: >> Jane, >> >> "It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test" >> >> It depends on what you want out of it. Before thinking about going backwards from the present, I find it worth looking back. Starting with you and going back 10 generations we have2048 ancestors, 1024 couples in the final generation. Each ancestor contributing 0.05% of your DNA If each couple had an average of 2 surviving children then we all have tens of thousands of "DNA cousins". 10 generations takes us back to the mid to late 1700s, before the mass movements of the Industrial Revolution. It is not surprising that many live in the same area and form clusters around particulars areas. I have been helping an American friend with some Irish family history. After using the Ancestry test we checked her Ancestry matches with her carefully researched and sourced family tree. 80%+ of the trees seemed to be cloned off each other and lacked sources. Although Ancestry mostly claimed the matches were 4th-6th cousins, they were nearly all 9th-10th cousins from different blood lines. One exception was a 4th cousin who could match to the tree. We also worked out that the Famine and the diaspora had left large numbers of Irish as cousins. I also know someone who found out they had a half-brother. Fortunately this was only a surprise rather than a shock as Dad had a bit of a reputation. Many like the idea of a worldwide family, personally I can't afford the Christmas cards, and prefer to follow the paper trail of my direct ancestors. Ancestry also include the ethnicity type tests. These seem to have ended up with almost identical results for everyone - we are all a blend of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh . They are probably of more interest to Americans, Canadians and others nations where there is mixed ethnicity. I had one 10 years ago to try and find out where in the Austro-Hungarian Empire my great-grand father was born. The results included Central Europe but the surprise was Northern Ireland. When I said not possible the sample technique was explained. Turns out that if I go into a bar in Belfast there is a million to one chance there will be a Viking with the same tiny DNA strand. No Chance of a free Guinness. >> What is more useful are the family group tests that Nancy referred to. For this test, groups with a common ancestor based on paper research directly compare DNA, no sample populations. This identifies the common DNA strand which can be used to confirm cousins who want to join the group. This type of testing can be arranged through the Guild of One-Name Studies (GOONS) and is of the type used in Forensic Archaeology. The main benefit is that it verifies the paper trail (or not). >> I have noticed that My Heritage and others are talking about gene screening for medical reasons. I am not sure I like the idea of being told I have a new match and, by the way, I will be dead within a week. I prefer the NHS. >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com

Just to add, The DNA we are talking about is only part of our total DNA. There is a whole lot more that carries the information that makes us humans. Two arms, two legs etc. Even the basic differences between boys and girls. I have a vague memory that it only takes a few changes to our DNA structure before we become a banana or something equally ridiculous. I bet they didn't use Ancestry for the Neanderthal DNA. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: joy.langdon--- via DEVON [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 06 November 2019 23:07 To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Yes, some DNA is lost over time. When you take the DNA test Ancestry send links to various Youtube lectures on understanding your results and explain how DNA works in a very basic manner. We inherit half our DNA from our mother and half from our father. That doesn't mean that you have a quarter of your DNA from each grandparent, the half you inherit from a parent is random and might contain more of their father's DNA than their mother's so if one of your grandparents was from France you won't automatically have 25% French DNA. Keep doing this as you go back up the tree and you can see that quite a lot of DNA will vanish forever over hundreds of years. Siblings don't inherit the same DNA from their parents so DNA might survive in one branch of a family and not in another. This is why the ethnic testing is nonsense, siblings can have different ethnic estimates depending upon which random bunch of DNA they inherited. I have DNA matched with descendants of the same great grandparents and the degrees of our match differ widely depending how much of the same DNA came down through our grandparent to our parent to us. Some DNA, of course, can remain around for a long, long time as it survives randomly being passed down the line and they can recognise Neanderthal DNA in people. They also identified someone in the Cheddar area who is related to "Cheddar Man" the Mesolithic skeleton found in Gough's Cave, Cheddar Gorge (about 10,000 years old). Also, they analysed the blood of over 3,700 Tyrolean male blood donors and 19 of them shared a particular genetic mutation with the 5,300 year old "Otzi the Ice Man" found mummified in the Alps so they are either descendants of him or his close relation. Joy ------ Original Message ------ From: "Paul Hockie via DEVON" <[email protected]> To: "Nancy Frey" <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Cc: "Paul Hockie" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, 6 Nov, 2019 At 20:22 Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Nancy, I am not sure I was very clear. Occupying legions served a "Tour of Duty" in the same way as British Regiments served in Canada (my wife's ancestor spent 10 years in Nova Scotia before being moved to Majorca). At the end of the tour they moved on although not all survived until the end of the tour. They lived in camps and were forbidden to marry - mostly to prevent children claiming Roman citizenship. Marriage, anyway, was a business arrangement for the Romans. Outside the camp was the Vicus which grew up to supply the legions recreational needs, many grew into towns. The Vicus offered taverns, brothels shops for the poor soldier from North Africa who found himself walking up and down Hadrian's Wall. The soldier who left as part of the exodus may have only been in Britain 10 years. Like everything else there would be exceptions. Senior military and, for want of a better word, civil servants would bring their wives with them for the duration. Over time higher echelons of British soci ety adopted the Roman way of life, some marrying, having children and remaining in Britain. Overall this would account for only a small portion of the population. One thing that has not been touched on is DNA survival. For the comparison of the DNA of Richard III and the Tsar of Russia and his family only a handful of proven descendants could be found. As far as I am aware no-one knows if the 2 million who survived had "stronger" genes than those who died. Were the Normans and Romans just not "fit" in Darwin terms. This is classic survival of the fittest. At the other end of the scale one of last years Who Do You Think You Are featured an athlete from a small island off the coast of Ireland. Apparently the people of the island and a small part of the coast were so isolated that their DNA could be traced directly back to the Stone Age migrants who crossed from Europe via the land bridge (Doggerland) and before Ireland drifted out into the Atlantic. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Frey [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 06 November 2019 16:20 To: [email protected] Cc: Paul Hockie Subject: Re: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Hi Paul, I agree with much that you say. My point was that the soldier who was 'withdrawn' was several generations removed from the one who had arrived 400 years ago. Whatever country his ancestors came from was totally foreign to him. I am sure that far more than we realized stayed in what would become the United Kingdom. Cheers., Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:50 PM Paul Hockie via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: The problem is that Roman soldiers were not Roman apart from the senior commanders. The number of Romans was too small to occupy the empire so the policy was to recruit soldiers throughout the empire but not to station them in their "home" country. They reasoned, quite sensibly, that arming the locals was a recipe for revolt so they used troops, regular and auxiliaries, who had no interest in local events. Until the army reforms of the 1870s the British Army operated a similar policy to policing the UK, especially Ireland. It may be true that your family are descended from a legionnaire but he could well be from anywhere from North Africa to North Europe. Legions were also moved around the empire at regular intervals, again, like the British Army and were forbidden to marry although "comforts" were provided. While some may have stayed behind with a local girl, the rest marched to their next posting. From memory, the reason the Romans withdrew around 400AD was that the legions had been withdrawn to Gaul to fight the revolting Goths, Visigoths etc. (Who eventually sacked Rome itself). Cheers _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ <http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/> and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ <http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/> ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref <http://bit.ly/rootswebpref> Unsubscribe [email protected]">https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY <https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY> Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 <https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog <http://rootsweb.blog> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Nancy, Migration Charts existed long before DNA. Language is one way, the spread of the words for mother, water and some other basic concepts have been studied, cave drawings in Arizona match those in France, fashion, archaeological finds, diet, even styles of flint napping. DNA is all about comparing samples of known provenance preferably using the latest tools. I am not sure whether Ancestry is aware of this. The Welcome Trust, universities and other professional laboratories do work to the highest standards but the older (and smaller) the DNA sample the bigger the need for corroborating non-DNA evidence until they can identify unique DNA strands to the accuracy of carbon dating or tree dating. Sorry about the sentences - I keep getting interrupted and loose the thread. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Frey [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 06 November 2019 22:53 To: [email protected] Cc: Paul Hockie Subject: Re: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA Paul you just made my day! Even my daily Garfield cartoon didn't elicit the chuckles that some of your comments did, but please -- can we have shorter paragraphs? I nearly ran out of breath. Since you didn't <snip> I finally read the article that Jane was referring to, which I admit I should have done when she first posted. There is nowhere in that article that tells me what DNA tests they did or where. However, the Welcome Trust is well known to me as a source for immaculate work, so I think they probably did all the correct tests and spared no expense. Unless you've followed some of the DNA migration charts, you cannot possibly imagine how many ways DNA gets from l one country to another. And I believe that's what Professor Mark Robinson (an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History) was trying to get across to his readers. Note, his article was published in a Nature Journal. For Cards of any sort (not just Christmas Cards) I highly recommend Jacquie Lawson's inexpensive site at https://www.jacquielawson.com/. I think its about 10 GPB ($12 Cdn) a year to send as many cards as you want and they are the best cards available on the internet IMO. Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Paul Hockie via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > > Jane, > > "It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test" > > It depends on what you want out of it. Before thinking about going backwards from the present, I find it worth looking back. Starting with you and going back 10 generations we have2048 ancestors, 1024 couples in the final generation. Each ancestor contributing 0.05% of your DNA If each couple had an average of 2 surviving children then we all have tens of thousands of "DNA cousins". 10 generations takes us back to the mid to late 1700s, before the mass movements of the Industrial Revolution. It is not surprising that many live in the same area and form clusters around particulars areas. I have been helping an American friend with some Irish family history. After using the Ancestry test we checked her Ancestry matches with her carefully researched and sourced family tree. 80%+ of the trees seemed to be cloned off each other and lacked sources. Although Ancestry mostly claimed the matches were 4th-6th cousins, they were nearly all 9th-10th cousins from different blood lines. One exception was a 4th cousin who could match to the tree. We also worked out that the Famine and the diaspora had left large numbers of Irish as cousins. I also know someone who found out they had a half-brother. Fortunately this was only a surprise rather than a shock as Dad had a bit of a reputation. Many like the idea of a worldwide family, personally I can't afford the Christmas cards, and prefer to follow the paper trail of my direct ancestors. Ancestry also include the ethnicity type tests. These seem to have ended up with almost identical results for everyone - we are all a blend of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh . They are probably of more interest to Americans, Canadians and others nations where there is mixed ethnicity. I had one 10 years ago to try and find out where in the Austro-Hungarian Empire my great-grand father was born. The results included Central Europe but the surprise was Northern Ireland. When I said not possible the sample technique was explained. Turns out that if I go into a bar in Belfast there is a million to one chance there will be a Viking with the same tiny DNA strand. No Chance of a free Guinness. > What is more useful are the family group tests that Nancy referred to. For this test, groups with a common ancestor based on paper research directly compare DNA, no sample populations. This identifies the common DNA strand which can be used to confirm cousins who want to join the group. This type of testing can be arranged through the Guild of One-Name Studies (GOONS) and is of the type used in Forensic Archaeology. The main benefit is that it verifies the paper trail (or not). > I have noticed that My Heritage and others are talking about gene screening for medical reasons. I am not sure I like the idea of being told I have a new match and, by the way, I will be dead within a week. I prefer the NHS. > > Cheers > > Paul

I have replied and connected to all those who have "leafs" beside their names.  All 94 of them.  There are a couple who are obviously going to be connected but they definitely have errors and blanks in their trees and I need to work on them. I haven't really been able to find any new cousins apart from those over 4 generations away.  As I started researching my families back in 1954 there are really no new members of the family that I can find.  No mysteries, it's really quite boring. Liz On 07/11/2019 15:13, [email protected] wrote: > It is disappointing when people we match do not reply, but there is no requirement rule that they do so. I guess they have their own reasons for having DNA tested...not the same reasons as though of us who are serious about researching our roots. > > As for having an unusual name and not able to find living cousins, that is one reason for DNA testing, but there are always the ancestral lines of our known family lines. I am always happy to track down a cousin I didn't know about, hoping to learn more about the family, but it is our family history that is of most interest...and that is the main reason I have DNA tested several male Y-DNA lines ...as well as myself and my mother on female / maternal mtDNA...plus the cousin matching tests available through Ancestry.com and FamilyTreeDNA. I try to contact as many people as possible...can't do them all...and often get no response, but I can sometimes look at a GEDCOM / tree. > > I do wish there was some method to get responses, but can't imagine any control method other than a DNA police force, lol. Replying to emails could be a requirement, but no way to enforce it, phooey. > > Just keep digging up those roots and studying the history of the eras in which your family lived.. > > Best wishes! > Audrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Liz Youle via DEVON [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 2:00 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Liz Youle <[email protected]> > Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA > > Although I have a lot of Devon and Cornwall people on my tree, none of them are my direct ancestors, most belong to my granddaughter. > > Why did I do a DNA test? I certainly didn't expect to find anyone with my maiden name of Youle as we are an extremely small family. My grandfather had only 4 children - 2 girls and 2 boys. None of the children had boys so the line died out. My great grandfather only had 2 girls and the one boy (my grandfather). My great great grandfather had only one child. > > My reason for taking a DNA was to help people with illegitimacy and/or adoption. These people need our help as their reason for taking a DNA test is to find out their roots if possible. This is real detective work and I've really enjoyed helping people solve their roots. My problem is all those people who take a DNA test but do not put any tree and/or do not respond to emails. I feel there should be somewhere on these sites where we can comment that the person does not respond to emails. They are wasting their money and my time. > > My mother's final cousin (of 42 descendants of one man and his wife) has had his DNA done and I've put it on Ged-match with my email address but I've never had a response and I know there are people connected to him. I always reply. > > It has been an absolute pleasure to have helped several people and I will continue to help as long as I can. > > Liz > > On 06/11/2019 18:18, Nancy Frey wrote: >> Hi Jane, >> >> Before doing anything more about DNA testing I think you need to >> define what you want to find out who you need to test and where is the >> best place to test for that. One of my colleagues blogs on the >> subject. Her name is Roberta Estes and her blog is DNAeXplained at >> https://dna-explained.com/. She writes for the layman. Reading some >> of her articles will give you a better idea of where, what and who to >> test. Family Tree DNA is, I believe the only lab who do Y-DNA >> testing. The most popular test today is Autosomal. There are other >> types of tests. I did an MtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA) which traces the >> DNA passed from mother to daughter. >> >> As an example, under Bobbi's guidance I was able to set up a DAVIDGE >> DNA group at Family Tree DNA. Our goal was to define a Y-DNA >> signature for the surname, if possible. We ended up with several men >> testing and the results showed a couple of distinctly different >> Haplogroups. Doing the genealogy we discovered that in each case the >> man whose Haplogroup did not match the majority had descended from an >> NPE (non-paternal event) being in their case, not adoption, but >> illegitimacy. At one time a male was registered with his mother's >> surname and while that branch carries the DAVIDGE surname it carries >> no DAVIDGE Y-DNA. This testing leads me to believe that two brick >> wall DAVIDGE men, one in Newfoundland and another in the US are indeed >> descended from a DAVIDGE. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Nancy Frey, >> Windsor, ON, Canada >> OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset; [email protected] >> >> On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 12:02 PM Jane Lucas via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: >>> I just wanted to say hank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion under the Devon and Cornwall thread. I renamed it. When I tried to send this earlier it didn’t appear. >>> >>> It is fascinating and some really useful arguments. As Joy (Langdon) says though, no one is going to stick their neck out and say that we have all the answers. Thanks Joy for the reminder about the Ipplepen finds. I remember reading about it recently and meant to follow it up. I have direct ancestors from there so any additional information is always interesting. The work done in recent years at Hadrien’s wall also raises questions about earlier assumptions. >>> >>> Paul (Hockie), thanks for clarifying Ancestry DNA techniques. It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test.. even if I can persuade my brothers! >>> >>> I do think the study I referred to in the original post has given us some answers and more clarity. We now have a 'fine scale genetic map' of the British Isles, thanks to researchers at the University of Oxford. The Study was published in Nature in 2015. I only found it earlier this year though. This is the link to the background. I can’t comment on the DNA techniques used as I don’t know enough about it. But I’m sure some of you do. >>> >>> >>> http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-g >>> enetic-map-british-isles >>> <http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are- >>> genetic-map-british-isles> >>> >>> >>> The bit that is most interesting, to me at any rate, is the DNA clusters and geographic groupings. >>> >>> "There are separate genetic groups in Cornwall and Devon, with a division almost exactly along the modern county boundary.” That is completely fascinating! >>> >>> Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, said 'The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons.' >>> >>> Regards >>> Jane >> _______________________________________________ >> ------------------------------------------ >> The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >> http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >> _______________________________________________ >> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe >> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal >> RootsWeb community > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community >

From FMP Marking a century since the first Armistice Day, Findmypast is free* this Remembrance Weekend. Free access starts tomorrow at 12:00 GMT. *Newspapers, PERSI and UK Electoral Registers & Companies House Directors 2002-2019 are excluded from this free access promotion. Terms and conditions apply. Cheers Paul

It is disappointing when people we match do not reply, but there is no requirement rule that they do so. I guess they have their own reasons for having DNA tested...not the same reasons as though of us who are serious about researching our roots. As for having an unusual name and not able to find living cousins, that is one reason for DNA testing, but there are always the ancestral lines of our known family lines. I am always happy to track down a cousin I didn't know about, hoping to learn more about the family, but it is our family history that is of most interest...and that is the main reason I have DNA tested several male Y-DNA lines ...as well as myself and my mother on female / maternal mtDNA...plus the cousin matching tests available through Ancestry.com and FamilyTreeDNA. I try to contact as many people as possible...can't do them all...and often get no response, but I can sometimes look at a GEDCOM / tree. I do wish there was some method to get responses, but can't imagine any control method other than a DNA police force, lol. Replying to emails could be a requirement, but no way to enforce it, phooey. Just keep digging up those roots and studying the history of the eras in which your family lived.. Best wishes! Audrey -----Original Message----- From: Liz Youle via DEVON [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 2:00 PM To: [email protected] Cc: Liz Youle <[email protected]> Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA Although I have a lot of Devon and Cornwall people on my tree, none of them are my direct ancestors, most belong to my granddaughter. Why did I do a DNA test? I certainly didn't expect to find anyone with my maiden name of Youle as we are an extremely small family. My grandfather had only 4 children - 2 girls and 2 boys. None of the children had boys so the line died out. My great grandfather only had 2 girls and the one boy (my grandfather). My great great grandfather had only one child. My reason for taking a DNA was to help people with illegitimacy and/or adoption. These people need our help as their reason for taking a DNA test is to find out their roots if possible. This is real detective work and I've really enjoyed helping people solve their roots. My problem is all those people who take a DNA test but do not put any tree and/or do not respond to emails. I feel there should be somewhere on these sites where we can comment that the person does not respond to emails. They are wasting their money and my time. My mother's final cousin (of 42 descendants of one man and his wife) has had his DNA done and I've put it on Ged-match with my email address but I've never had a response and I know there are people connected to him. I always reply. It has been an absolute pleasure to have helped several people and I will continue to help as long as I can. Liz On 06/11/2019 18:18, Nancy Frey wrote: > Hi Jane, > > Before doing anything more about DNA testing I think you need to > define what you want to find out who you need to test and where is the > best place to test for that. One of my colleagues blogs on the > subject. Her name is Roberta Estes and her blog is DNAeXplained at > https://dna-explained.com/. She writes for the layman. Reading some > of her articles will give you a better idea of where, what and who to > test. Family Tree DNA is, I believe the only lab who do Y-DNA > testing. The most popular test today is Autosomal. There are other > types of tests. I did an MtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA) which traces the > DNA passed from mother to daughter. > > As an example, under Bobbi's guidance I was able to set up a DAVIDGE > DNA group at Family Tree DNA. Our goal was to define a Y-DNA > signature for the surname, if possible. We ended up with several men > testing and the results showed a couple of distinctly different > Haplogroups. Doing the genealogy we discovered that in each case the > man whose Haplogroup did not match the majority had descended from an > NPE (non-paternal event) being in their case, not adoption, but > illegitimacy. At one time a male was registered with his mother's > surname and while that branch carries the DAVIDGE surname it carries > no DAVIDGE Y-DNA. This testing leads me to believe that two brick > wall DAVIDGE men, one in Newfoundland and another in the US are indeed > descended from a DAVIDGE. > > Cheers, > > Nancy Frey, > Windsor, ON, Canada > OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset; [email protected] > > On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 12:02 PM Jane Lucas via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: >> I just wanted to say hank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion under the Devon and Cornwall thread. I renamed it. When I tried to send this earlier it didn’t appear. >> >> It is fascinating and some really useful arguments. As Joy (Langdon) says though, no one is going to stick their neck out and say that we have all the answers. Thanks Joy for the reminder about the Ipplepen finds. I remember reading about it recently and meant to follow it up. I have direct ancestors from there so any additional information is always interesting. The work done in recent years at Hadrien’s wall also raises questions about earlier assumptions. >> >> Paul (Hockie), thanks for clarifying Ancestry DNA techniques. It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test.. even if I can persuade my brothers! >> >> I do think the study I referred to in the original post has given us some answers and more clarity. We now have a 'fine scale genetic map' of the British Isles, thanks to researchers at the University of Oxford. The Study was published in Nature in 2015. I only found it earlier this year though. This is the link to the background. I can’t comment on the DNA techniques used as I don’t know enough about it. But I’m sure some of you do. >> >> >> http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-g >> enetic-map-british-isles >> <http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are- >> genetic-map-british-isles> >> >> >> The bit that is most interesting, to me at any rate, is the DNA clusters and geographic groupings. >> >> "There are separate genetic groups in Cornwall and Devon, with a division almost exactly along the modern county boundary.” That is completely fascinating! >> >> Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, said 'The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons.' >> >> Regards >> Jane > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal > RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Except for Y DNA which is passed from father to son so you can go back multiple generations and find that same DNA - this is how I connected two families I was researching, same surname. There were 6 lines in total of the surname, all over the UK and they all originated from the same family in Bucks back in the early 1500s Most one name studies, that involves DNA, is from males only Judy BC Canada ________________________________ From: joy.langdon--- via DEVON <[email protected]> Sent: November 6, 2019 3:06 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Yes, some DNA is lost over time. When you take the DNA test Ancestry send links to various Youtube lectures on understanding your results and explain how DNA works in a very basic manner. We inherit half our DNA from our mother and half from our father. That doesn't mean that you have a quarter of your DNA from each grandparent, the half you inherit from a parent is random and might contain more of their father's DNA than their mother's so if one of your grandparents was from France you won't automatically have 25% French DNA. Keep doing this as you go back up the tree and you can see that quite a lot of DNA will vanish forever over hundreds of years. Siblings don't inherit the same DNA from their parents so DNA might survive in one branch of a family and not in another. This is why the ethnic testing is nonsense, siblings can have different ethnic estimates depending upon which random bunch of DNA they inherited. I have DNA matched with descendants of the same great grandparents and the degrees of our match differ widely depending how much of the same DNA came down through our grandparent to our parent to us. Some DNA, of course, can remain around for a long, long time as it survives randomly being passed down the line and they can recognise Neanderthal DNA in people. They also identified someone in the Cheddar area who is related to "Cheddar Man" the Mesolithic skeleton found in Gough's Cave, Cheddar Gorge (about 10,000 years old). Also, they analysed the blood of over 3,700 Tyrolean male blood donors and 19 of them shared a particular genetic mutation with the 5,300 year old "Otzi the Ice Man" found mummified in the Alps so they are either descendants of him or his close relation. Joy

Yes, some DNA is lost over time. When you take the DNA test Ancestry send links to various Youtube lectures on understanding your results and explain how DNA works in a very basic manner. We inherit half our DNA from our mother and half from our father. That doesn't mean that you have a quarter of your DNA from each grandparent, the half you inherit from a parent is random and might contain more of their father's DNA than their mother's so if one of your grandparents was from France you won't automatically have 25% French DNA. Keep doing this as you go back up the tree and you can see that quite a lot of DNA will vanish forever over hundreds of years. Siblings don't inherit the same DNA from their parents so DNA might survive in one branch of a family and not in another. This is why the ethnic testing is nonsense, siblings can have different ethnic estimates depending upon which random bunch of DNA they inherited. I have DNA matched with descendants of the same great grandparents and the degrees of our match differ widely depending how much of the same DNA came down through our grandparent to our parent to us. Some DNA, of course, can remain around for a long, long time as it survives randomly being passed down the line and they can recognise Neanderthal DNA in people. They also identified someone in the Cheddar area who is related to "Cheddar Man" the Mesolithic skeleton found in Gough's Cave, Cheddar Gorge (about 10,000 years old). Also, they analysed the blood of over 3,700 Tyrolean male blood donors and 19 of them shared a particular genetic mutation with the 5,300 year old "Otzi the Ice Man" found mummified in the Alps so they are either descendants of him or his close relation. Joy ------ Original Message ------ From: "Paul Hockie via DEVON" <[email protected]> To: "Nancy Frey" <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Cc: "Paul Hockie" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, 6 Nov, 2019 At 20:22 Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Nancy, I am not sure I was very clear. Occupying legions served a "Tour of Duty" in the same way as British Regiments served in Canada (my wife's ancestor spent 10 years in Nova Scotia before being moved to Majorca). At the end of the tour they moved on although not all survived until the end of the tour. They lived in camps and were forbidden to marry - mostly to prevent children claiming Roman citizenship. Marriage, anyway, was a business arrangement for the Romans. Outside the camp was the Vicus which grew up to supply the legions recreational needs, many grew into towns. The Vicus offered taverns, brothels shops for the poor soldier from North Africa who found himself walking up and down Hadrian's Wall. The soldier who left as part of the exodus may have only been in Britain 10 years. Like everything else there would be exceptions. Senior military and, for want of a better word, civil servants would bring their wives with them for the duration. Over time higher echelons of British soci ety adopted the Roman way of life, some marrying, having children and remaining in Britain. Overall this would account for only a small portion of the population. One thing that has not been touched on is DNA survival. For the comparison of the DNA of Richard III and the Tsar of Russia and his family only a handful of proven descendants could be found. As far as I am aware no-one knows if the 2 million who survived had "stronger" genes than those who died. Were the Normans and Romans just not "fit" in Darwin terms. This is classic survival of the fittest. At the other end of the scale one of last years Who Do You Think You Are featured an athlete from a small island off the coast of Ireland. Apparently the people of the island and a small part of the coast were so isolated that their DNA could be traced directly back to the Stone Age migrants who crossed from Europe via the land bridge (Doggerland) and before Ireland drifted out into the Atlantic. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Frey [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 06 November 2019 16:20 To: [email protected] Cc: Paul Hockie Subject: Re: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Hi Paul, I agree with much that you say. My point was that the soldier who was 'withdrawn' was several generations removed from the one who had arrived 400 years ago. Whatever country his ancestors came from was totally foreign to him. I am sure that far more than we realized stayed in what would become the United Kingdom. Cheers., Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:50 PM Paul Hockie via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: The problem is that Roman soldiers were not Roman apart from the senior commanders. The number of Romans was too small to occupy the empire so the policy was to recruit soldiers throughout the empire but not to station them in their "home" country. They reasoned, quite sensibly, that arming the locals was a recipe for revolt so they used troops, regular and auxiliaries, who had no interest in local events. Until the army reforms of the 1870s the British Army operated a similar policy to policing the UK, especially Ireland. It may be true that your family are descended from a legionnaire but he could well be from anywhere from North Africa to North Europe. Legions were also moved around the empire at regular intervals, again, like the British Army and were forbidden to marry although "comforts" were provided. While some may have stayed behind with a local girl, the rest marched to their next posting. From memory, the reason the Romans withdrew around 400AD was that the legions had been withdrawn to Gaul to fight the revolting Goths, Visigoths etc. (Who eventually sacked Rome itself). Cheers _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ <http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/> and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ <http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/> ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref <http://bit.ly/rootswebpref> Unsubscribe [email protected]">https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY <https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY> Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 <https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog <http://rootsweb.blog> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

For those of us whose ancestors came to the Americas Or Australia or New Zealand DNA can be very helpful and interesting. It has amazed me how strong some genetic material is (or it just may be as stated in the thread - they just highlight the unusual.) But i have an ancestor who was a trader born in Belgium in the 1500s who went to do business in Gotland (now Sweden) an island in the Baltic. Ancestry found a 5th or 6th cousin living now and matched us up. Remarkable. On the frustrating side my gggrandmother from Devon decided to marry a Griffithes from Shropshire whose family are something of a mystery. The one DNA connection from that family has a tree with about 1600 people in it and she won't let me see it. So sometimes DNA works and sometimes not. Every bit is interesting. Caren ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Hockie via DEVON &lt;[email protected]&gt; To: [email protected] Cc: Paul Hockie &lt;[email protected]&gt; Sent: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:46:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA Jane, "It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test" It depends on what you want out of it. Before thinking about going backwards from the present, I find it worth looking back. Starting with you and going back 10 generations we have2048 ancestors, 1024 couples in the final generation. Each ancestor contributing 0.05% of your DNA If each couple had an average of 2 surviving children then we all have tens of thousands of "DNA cousins". 10 generations takes us back to the mid to late 1700s, before the mass movements of the Industrial Revolution. It is not surprising that many live in the same area and form clusters around particulars areas. I have been helping an American friend with some Irish family history. After using the Ancestry test we checked her Ancestry matches with her carefully researched and sourced family tree. 80%+ of the trees seemed to be cloned off each other and lacked sources. Although Ancestry mostly claimed the matches were 4th-6th cousins, they were nearly all 9th-10th cousins from different blood lines. One exception was a 4th cousin who could match to the tree. We also worked out that the Famine and the diaspora had left large numbers of Irish as cousins. I also know someone who found out they had a half-brother. Fortunately this was only a surprise rather than a shock as Dad had a bit of a reputation. Many like the idea of a worldwide family, personally I can't afford the Christmas cards, and prefer to follow the paper trail of my direct ancestors. Ancestry also include the ethnicity type tests. These seem to have ended up with almost identical results for everyone - we are all a blend of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh . They are probably of more interest to Americans, Canadians and others nations where there is mixed ethnicity. I had one 10 years ago to try and find out where in the Austro-Hungarian Empire my great-grand father was born. The results included Central Europe but the surprise was Northern Ireland. When I said not possible the sample technique was explained. Turns out that if I go into a bar in Belfast there is a million to one chance there will be a Viking with the same tiny DNA strand. No Chance of a free Guinness. What is more useful are the family group tests that Nancy referred to. For this test, groups with a common ancestor based on paper research directly compare DNA, no sample populations. This identifies the common DNA strand which can be used to confirm cousins who want to join the group. This type of testing can be arranged through the Guild of One-Name Studies (GOONS) and is of the type used in Forensic Archaeology. The main benefit is that it verifies the paper trail (or not). I have noticed that My Heritage and others are talking about gene screening for medical reasons. I am not sure I like the idea of being told I have a new match and, by the way, I will be dead within a week. I prefer the NHS. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Jane Lucas via DEVON [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 06 November 2019 17:01 To: [email protected] Cc: Jane Lucas Subject: [DEV] British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA I just wanted to say hank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion under the Devon and Cornwall thread. I renamed it. When I tried to send this earlier it didn’t appear. It is fascinating and some really useful arguments. As Joy (Langdon) says though, no one is going to stick their neck out and say that we have all the answers. Thanks Joy for the reminder about the Ipplepen finds. I remember reading about it recently and meant to follow it up. I have direct ancestors from there so any additional information is always interesting. The work done in recent years at Hadrien’s wall also raises questions about earlier assumptions. Paul (Hockie), thanks for clarifying Ancestry DNA techniques. It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test.. even if I can persuade my brothers! I do think the study I referred to in the original post has given us some answers and more clarity. We now have a 'fine scale genetic map' of the British Isles, thanks to researchers at the University of Oxford. The Study was published in Nature in 2015. I only found it earlier this year though. This is the link to the background. I can’t comment on the DNA techniques used as I don’t know enough about it. But I’m sure some of you do. http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles &lt;http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles&gt; The bit that is most interesting, to me at any rate, is the DNA clusters and geographic groupings. "There are separate genetic groups in Cornwall and Devon, with a division almost exactly along the modern county boundary.” That is completely fascinating! Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, said 'The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons.' Regards Jane _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi Adrian, I really love your thoughts on this as I feel you are on the right track. One thing has always puzzled me. If we all came 'out of Africa' and 'descended from apes' how do we account for the fact that a fairly substantial number of people, especially in the northern climes, have blue eyes? That's some 'mutation'! I recently received a blurb outlining how some scientists have now found another species living at the same time as Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal and us Homo Sapiens. While Cro-Magnon died out, many of us carry Neanderthal genes today. What about these other guys? It is all getting too much for my little brain and I'm going back to finding my lost ancestors in Bideford. Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 5:35 PM Adrian Bruce <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 20:23, Paul Hockie via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > > ... Were the Normans and Romans just not "fit" in Darwin terms. This is classic survival of the fittest. ... > > Except, except... So far as I know, all this analysis depends on the > detection of patterns and that depends on bits sticking out. In fact, > i've a suspicion that I've read that the ethnic analyses rely on > looking just at the bits that stand out as different - today - and > ignoring the rest. > > If the Roman legionaries (rather than the Romans per se) stirred the > pot so comprehensively that their DNA is today found across the whole > of Europe, then nothing would cause anyone to think anything of anyone > with some of this Roman DNA because it's now found across all Europe > and is just, meh, bog-standard European. You'd need to start analysing > DNA from old burials to see if items in the generic Euro-DNA tracks > concentrate in certain areas as you go back. > > It is certainly true that if you go back far enough then you'll find > that the statistical average European DNA breaks up and it becomes > clear that there is no single source for the European "race" - go back > far enough and I think that there were four "races" in Europe that > were as different from one another as European is from East Asian > today. It just got all mixed up. > > Adrian >

Paul you just made my day! Even my daily Garfield cartoon didn't elicit the chuckles that some of your comments did, but please -- can we have shorter paragraphs? I nearly ran out of breath. Since you didn't <snip> I finally read the article that Jane was referring to, which I admit I should have done when she first posted. There is nowhere in that article that tells me what DNA tests they did or where. However, the Welcome Trust is well known to me as a source for immaculate work, so I think they probably did all the correct tests and spared no expense. Unless you've followed some of the DNA migration charts, you cannot possibly imagine how many ways DNA gets from l one country to another. And I believe that's what Professor Mark Robinson (an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History) was trying to get across to his readers. Note, his article was published in a Nature Journal. For Cards of any sort (not just Christmas Cards) I highly recommend Jacquie Lawson's inexpensive site at https://www.jacquielawson.com/. I think its about 10 GPB ($12 Cdn) a year to send as many cards as you want and they are the best cards available on the internet IMO. Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Paul Hockie via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > > Jane, > > "It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test" > > It depends on what you want out of it. Before thinking about going backwards from the present, I find it worth looking back. Starting with you and going back 10 generations we have2048 ancestors, 1024 couples in the final generation. Each ancestor contributing 0.05% of your DNA If each couple had an average of 2 surviving children then we all have tens of thousands of "DNA cousins". 10 generations takes us back to the mid to late 1700s, before the mass movements of the Industrial Revolution. It is not surprising that many live in the same area and form clusters around particulars areas. I have been helping an American friend with some Irish family history. After using the Ancestry test we checked her Ancestry matches with her carefully researched and sourced family tree. 80%+ of the trees seemed to be cloned off each other and lacked sources. Although Ancestry mostly claimed the matches were 4th-6th cousins, they were nearly all 9th-10th cousins from different blood lines. One exception was a 4th cousin who could match to the tree. We also worked out that the Famine and the diaspora had left large numbers of Irish as cousins. I also know someone who found out they had a half-brother. Fortunately this was only a surprise rather than a shock as Dad had a bit of a reputation. Many like the idea of a worldwide family, personally I can't afford the Christmas cards, and prefer to follow the paper trail of my direct ancestors. Ancestry also include the ethnicity type tests. These seem to have ended up with almost identical results for everyone - we are all a blend of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh . They are probably of more interest to Americans, Canadians and others nations where there is mixed ethnicity. I had one 10 years ago to try and find out where in the Austro-Hungarian Empire my great-grand father was born. The results included Central Europe but the surprise was Northern Ireland. When I said not possible the sample technique was explained. Turns out that if I go into a bar in Belfast there is a million to one chance there will be a Viking with the same tiny DNA strand. No Chance of a free Guinness. > What is more useful are the family group tests that Nancy referred to. For this test, groups with a common ancestor based on paper research directly compare DNA, no sample populations. This identifies the common DNA strand which can be used to confirm cousins who want to join the group. This type of testing can be arranged through the Guild of One-Name Studies (GOONS) and is of the type used in Forensic Archaeology. The main benefit is that it verifies the paper trail (or not). > I have noticed that My Heritage and others are talking about gene screening for medical reasons. I am not sure I like the idea of being told I have a new match and, by the way, I will be dead within a week. I prefer the NHS. > > Cheers > > Paul

Hi Liz, You've been reading too much "Josephine Jeremiah" but she was right. Have you heard from her recently? Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 4:18 PM Liz Youle via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Judy > (Google is your best friend)

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 20:23, Paul Hockie via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > ... Were the Normans and Romans just not "fit" in Darwin terms. This is classic survival of the fittest. ... Except, except... So far as I know, all this analysis depends on the detection of patterns and that depends on bits sticking out. In fact, i've a suspicion that I've read that the ethnic analyses rely on looking just at the bits that stand out as different - today - and ignoring the rest. If the Roman legionaries (rather than the Romans per se) stirred the pot so comprehensively that their DNA is today found across the whole of Europe, then nothing would cause anyone to think anything of anyone with some of this Roman DNA because it's now found across all Europe and is just, meh, bog-standard European. You'd need to start analysing DNA from old burials to see if items in the generic Euro-DNA tracks concentrate in certain areas as you go back. It is certainly true that if you go back far enough then you'll find that the statistical average European DNA breaks up and it becomes clear that there is no single source for the European "race" - go back far enough and I think that there were four "races" in Europe that were as different from one another as European is from East Asian today. It just got all mixed up. Adrian

Hi Paul, I get your point. I was following the story of the particular Legion that was stationed in Dorchester and didn't get the impression that there were soldiers leaving and arriving during their time in Britain, but that may have been the case. I'll have to take your word for it for the time being, but I haven't read anything about the soldiers being forbidden to marry. What was a marriage in those days for a Roman? Archealogical excavations have turned up all sorts of coins, issued by the military, in locations believed to be the site of a Vicus. So the soldiers spent their money 'in town'. I am looking at the situation in Dorset, not the isolation of Hadrian's Wall. I still feel my DAVIDGE ancestor was a Roman soldier, lol. If you will all stop speculating about DNA and read Roberta Estes blog, she answers most of these questions with reams of charts and graphs. She outlines how much of your DNA you are likely to get from a grandparent, a great-grandparent, etc. and shows quite clearly how you can figure out which part of your family what segments came from. It is all too complicated for me. As for mutations which some take to account for the "survival of the fittest" there are even some people today who don't agree with Darwin. I'm not into DNA any more than I need to be to understand how it affects the work I am collaborating with Roberta on, but I did take the course at The Pharos Institute to get the basics. It is my understanding that the kind of information required for the study in question is only available from a full sequence DNA test. Anything less is pure guesswork by the programs designed by the various testing labs, all of which are different. Roberta explains all that as well. If you want another opinion, her colleague Blaine Bettinger may be able to confirm what I'm saying on the Facebook page dedicated to the topic at https://www.facebook.com/groups/geneticgenealogytipsandtechniques/. I may be totally misinformed and the Autosomal test done by groups like Ancestry will give the results looked for. If I were doing the study I'd check it out a little more. Sorry, I don't believe everything I see on the TV. Recently there have been discoveries putting migration via a land bridge from Asia to North America in question. Richard III's remains were identified with an MtDNA test which followed his matrilinial line. Mitochondria is passed from mother to child. That's a whole new subject. It was not an Autosomal test through Ancestry. That's the only test Ancestry does. And as I said at the beginning of this thread, I do not believe it is 'on topic' for Rootsweb Devon. Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 3:22 PM Paul Hockie <[email protected]> wrote: > > Nancy, > > I am not sure I was very clear. Occupying legions served a "Tour of Duty" in the same way as British Regiments served in Canada (my wife's ancestor spent 10 years in Nova Scotia before being moved to Majorca). At the end of the tour they moved on although not all survived until the end of the tour. They lived in camps and were forbidden to marry - mostly to prevent children claiming Roman citizenship. Marriage, anyway, was a business arrangement for the Romans. Outside the camp was the Vicus which grew up to supply the legions recreational needs, many grew into towns. The Vicus offered taverns, brothels shops for the poor soldier from North Africa who found himself walking up and down Hadrian's Wall. The soldier who left as part of the exodus may have only been in Britain 10 years. Like everything else there would be exceptions. Senior military and, for want of a better word, civil servants would bring their wives with them for the duration. Over time higher echelons of British society adopted the Roman way of life, some marrying, having children and remaining in Britain. Overall this would account for only a small portion of the population. > One thing that has not been touched on is DNA survival. For the comparison of the DNA of Richard III and the Tsar of Russia and his family only a handful of proven descendants could be found. As far as I am aware no-one knows if the 2 million who survived had "stronger" genes than those who died. Were the Normans and Romans just not "fit" in Darwin terms. This is classic survival of the fittest. At the other end of the scale one of last years Who Do You Think You Are featured an athlete from a small island off the coast of Ireland. Apparently the people of the island and a small part of the coast were so isolated that their DNA could be traced directly back to the Stone Age migrants who crossed from Europe via the land bridge (Doggerland) and before Ireland drifted out into the Atlantic. > > Cheers > > Paul

Paul One of the amazing things we did discover in my husband taking his DNA is that when he was just a child in England, he thought he had a 1st cousin on his mother's side. When he discovered he was adopted that all went down the drain. However, they both had a common name in their ancestors that was uncommon and I did eventually find out that both lines of that family came from the same area of Buckinghamshire. Although she was no longer a 1st cousin, she was definitely blood related, albeit a 6th cousin, twice removed lol Judy BC Canada ________________________________ From: Paul Hockie via DEVON <[email protected]> Sent: November 6, 2019 1:46 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Cc: Paul Hockie <[email protected]> Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA Jane, "It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test" It depends on what you want out of it. Before thinking about going backwards from the present, I find it worth looking back. Starting with you and going back 10 generations we have2048 ancestors, 1024 couples in the final generation. Each ancestor contributing 0.05% of your DNA If each couple had an average of 2 surviving children then we all have tens of thousands of "DNA cousins". 10 generations takes us back to the mid to late 1700s, before the mass movements of the Industrial Revolution. It is not surprising that many live in the same area and form clusters around particulars areas. I have been helping an American friend with some Irish family history. After using the Ancestry test we checked her Ancestry matches with her carefully researched and sourced family tree. 80%+ of the trees seemed to be cloned off each other and lacked sources. Although Ancestry mostly claimed the matches were 4th-6th cousins, they were nearly all 9th-10th cousins from different blood lines. One exception was a 4th cousin who could match to the tree. We also worked out that the Famine and the diaspora had left large numbers of Irish as cousins. I also know someone who found out they had a half-brother. Fortunately this was only a surprise rather than a shock as Dad had a bit of a reputation. Many like the idea of a worldwide family, personally I can't afford the Christmas cards, and prefer to follow the paper trail of my direct ancestors. Ancestry also include the ethnicity type tests. These seem to have ended up with almost identical results for everyone - we are all a blend of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh . They are probably of more interest to Americans, Canadians and others nations where there is mixed ethnicity. I had one 10 years ago to try and find out where in the Austro-Hungarian Empire my great-grand father was born. The results included Central Europe but the surprise was Northern Ireland. When I said not possible the sample technique was explained. Turns out that if I go into a bar in Belfast there is a million to one chance there will be a Viking with the same tiny DNA strand. No Chance of a free Guinness. What is more useful are the family group tests that Nancy referred to. For this test, groups with a common ancestor based on paper research directly compare DNA, no sample populations. This identifies the common DNA strand which can be used to confirm cousins who want to join the group. This type of testing can be arranged through the Guild of One-Name Studies (GOONS) and is of the type used in Forensic Archaeology. The main benefit is that it verifies the paper trail (or not). I have noticed that My Heritage and others are talking about gene screening for medical reasons. I am not sure I like the idea of being told I have a new match and, by the way, I will be dead within a week. I prefer the NHS. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Jane Lucas via DEVON [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 06 November 2019 17:01 To: [email protected] Cc: Jane Lucas Subject: [DEV] British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA I just wanted to say hank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion under the Devon and Cornwall thread. I renamed it. When I tried to send this earlier it didn’t appear. It is fascinating and some really useful arguments. As Joy (Langdon) says though, no one is going to stick their neck out and say that we have all the answers. Thanks Joy for the reminder about the Ipplepen finds. I remember reading about it recently and meant to follow it up. I have direct ancestors from there so any additional information is always interesting. The work done in recent years at Hadrien’s wall also raises questions about earlier assumptions. Paul (Hockie), thanks for clarifying Ancestry DNA techniques. It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test.. even if I can persuade my brothers! I do think the study I referred to in the original post has given us some answers and more clarity. We now have a 'fine scale genetic map' of the British Isles, thanks to researchers at the University of Oxford. The Study was published in Nature in 2015. I only found it earlier this year though. This is the link to the background. I can’t comment on the DNA techniques used as I don’t know enough about it. But I’m sure some of you do. http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles <http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles> The bit that is most interesting, to me at any rate, is the DNA clusters and geographic groupings. "There are separate genetic groups in Cornwall and Devon, with a division almost exactly along the modern county boundary.” That is completely fascinating! Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, said 'The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons.' Regards Jane _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Yes Liz, so many people change their email address and don't update. I have kept one specific email for my genealogy for eons and hope that I don't have to change it because I don't think I could remember all the sites that have it, I have tried to keep a list but I know its probably not complete As for the ethnicity being accurate or not, it would all depend on how many people have tested with that particular company, the more that test, the more accurate the findings. They can only go on what they know. Judy BC Canada ________________________________ From: Liz Youle via DEVON <[email protected]> Sent: November 6, 2019 1:17 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Cc: Liz Youle <[email protected]> Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA Hi Judy I am delighted that your husband has found his roots. As for "Ethnicity" this is the one thing that is far from accurate. In fact they keep changing every few months and I don't know how they work that one out. How can it change? I managed to track down a woman who had done her DNA and never responded. I needed her information desparately as it was obvious she was a 1st cousin of an adopted lady I was helping and she was the final key to my success. Eventually, through someone who was vaguely on the other side of her family (through a husband) I found she was a specialist in Egyptology. Still no name but I googled (Google is your best friend) then found an email address which was very similar and I knew I was there. I was able to contact her and, yes, I had the right person and she was delighted to hear from me. It transpires that the email address she used on the DNA site was no longer in use. She could have changed it! So, researchers, if you change your email address, do change it on your DNA sites. Liz On 06/11/2019 20:25, Heywyre Akers wrote: > As Liz has noted, it is frustrating when individuals do not post trees after taking a DNA test, however in defence of them I have noted that with the popularity of a lot of "find your roots" type of programs, the vast majority of people take DNA tests strictly to find their ethnicity and nothing more, that is their prerogative > > I am also aware of several family members that thought making a tree would be "easy" and "fun" and had no clue of the time investment needed. As much as a lot of us claim this to be a "hobby" there is nothing flippant about this hobby either. > > As a wife of a man that found out he was adopted at the age of 55, my "hobby" began, mostly when there was little to go on and intermediaries were needed as he had immigrated to Canada at the age of 5 and his adoptive parents were long gone and no one to ask questions to. > > Here I am, 20+ years later and within a few months of doing his DNA he now knows his genetic identity. DNA was our path to find the much needed answers and there was nothing "fun" or "easy" about it but it was VERY rewarding. > > We have to respect that not everyone is on the same path as we are. I weed out the ones I can and ignore others, focusing on the few that strive for that connection. > > Judy > BC Canada > ________________________________ > From: Caren Wilcox <[email protected]> > Sent: November 6, 2019 12:12 PM > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Cc: 'Liz Youle' <[email protected]> > Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA > > This commentary somewhat tracks one of my reasons for the DNA test. I have enjoyed seeing profiles of distant cousins (I do come from a huge family, and was raised away from most of them) but I also try to help people who say they are looking for family after adoption, or simply being like me - raised far away from biological family. Thanks for this good comment. Caren > > -----Original Message----- > From: Liz Youle via DEVON [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 2:00 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Liz Youle > Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA > > Although I have a lot of Devon and Cornwall people on my tree, none of > them are my direct ancestors, most belong to my granddaughter. > > Why did I do a DNA test? I certainly didn't expect to find anyone with > my maiden name of Youle as we are an extremely small family. My > grandfather had only 4 children - 2 girls and 2 boys. None of the > children had boys so the line died out. My great grandfather only had 2 > girls and the one boy (my grandfather). My great great grandfather had > only one child. > > My reason for taking a DNA was to help people with illegitimacy and/or > adoption. These people need our help as their reason for taking a DNA > test is to find out their roots if possible. This is real detective > work and I've really enjoyed helping people solve their roots. My > problem is all those people who take a DNA test but do not put any tree > and/or do not respond to emails. I feel there should be somewhere on > these sites where we can comment that the person does not respond to > emails. They are wasting their money and my time. > > My mother's final cousin (of 42 descendants of one man and his wife) has > had his DNA done and I've put it on Ged-match with my email address but > I've never had a response and I know there are people connected to him. > I always reply. > > It has been an absolute pleasure to have helped several people and I > will continue to help as long as I can. > > Liz > > On 06/11/2019 18:18, Nancy Frey wrote: >> Hi Jane, >> >> Before doing anything more about DNA testing I think you need to >> define what you want to find out who you need to test and where is the >> best place to test for that. One of my colleagues blogs on the >> subject. Her name is Roberta Estes and her blog is DNAeXplained at >> https://dna-explained.com/. She writes for the layman. Reading some >> of her articles will give you a better idea of where, what and who to >> test. Family Tree DNA is, I believe the only lab who do Y-DNA >> testing. The most popular test today is Autosomal. There are other >> types of tests. I did an MtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA) which traces the >> DNA passed from mother to daughter. >> >> As an example, under Bobbi's guidance I was able to set up a DAVIDGE >> DNA group at Family Tree DNA. Our goal was to define a Y-DNA >> signature for the surname, if possible. We ended up with several men >> testing and the results showed a couple of distinctly different >> Haplogroups. Doing the genealogy we discovered that in each case the >> man whose Haplogroup did not match the majority had descended from an >> NPE (non-paternal event) being in their case, not adoption, but >> illegitimacy. At one time a male was registered with his mother's >> surname and while that branch carries the DAVIDGE surname it carries >> no DAVIDGE Y-DNA. This testing leads me to believe that two brick >> wall DAVIDGE men, one in Newfoundland and another in the US are indeed >> descended from a DAVIDGE. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Nancy Frey, >> Windsor, ON, Canada >> OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset; >> [email protected] >> >> On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 12:02 PM Jane Lucas via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: >>> I just wanted to say hank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion under the Devon and Cornwall thread. I renamed it. When I tried to send this earlier it didn’t appear. >>> >>> It is fascinating and some really useful arguments. As Joy (Langdon) says though, no one is going to stick their neck out and say that we have all the answers. Thanks Joy for the reminder about the Ipplepen finds. I remember reading about it recently and meant to follow it up. I have direct ancestors from there so any additional information is always interesting. The work done in recent years at Hadrien’s wall also raises questions about earlier assumptions. >>> >>> Paul (Hockie), thanks for clarifying Ancestry DNA techniques. It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test.. even if I can persuade my brothers! >>> >>> I do think the study I referred to in the original post has given us some answers and more clarity. We now have a 'fine scale genetic map' of the British Isles, thanks to researchers at the University of Oxford. The Study was published in Nature in 2015. I only found it earlier this year though. This is the link to the background. I can’t comment on the DNA techniques used as I don’t know enough about it. But I’m sure some of you do. >>> >>> >>> http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles <http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles> >>> >>> >>> The bit that is most interesting, to me at any rate, is the DNA clusters and geographic groupings. >>> >>> "There are separate genetic groups in Cornwall and Devon, with a division almost exactly along the modern county boundary.” That is completely fascinating! >>> >>> Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, said 'The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons.' >>> >>> Regards >>> Jane >> _______________________________________________ >> ------------------------------------------ >> The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >> http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >> _______________________________________________ >> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >> Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Jane, "It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test" It depends on what you want out of it. Before thinking about going backwards from the present, I find it worth looking back. Starting with you and going back 10 generations we have2048 ancestors, 1024 couples in the final generation. Each ancestor contributing 0.05% of your DNA If each couple had an average of 2 surviving children then we all have tens of thousands of "DNA cousins". 10 generations takes us back to the mid to late 1700s, before the mass movements of the Industrial Revolution. It is not surprising that many live in the same area and form clusters around particulars areas. I have been helping an American friend with some Irish family history. After using the Ancestry test we checked her Ancestry matches with her carefully researched and sourced family tree. 80%+ of the trees seemed to be cloned off each other and lacked sources. Although Ancestry mostly claimed the matches were 4th-6th cousins, they were nearly all 9th-10th cousins from different blood lines. One exception was a 4th cousin who could match to the tree. We also worked out that the Famine and the diaspora had left large numbers of Irish as cousins. I also know someone who found out they had a half-brother. Fortunately this was only a surprise rather than a shock as Dad had a bit of a reputation. Many like the idea of a worldwide family, personally I can't afford the Christmas cards, and prefer to follow the paper trail of my direct ancestors. Ancestry also include the ethnicity type tests. These seem to have ended up with almost identical results for everyone - we are all a blend of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh . They are probably of more interest to Americans, Canadians and others nations where there is mixed ethnicity. I had one 10 years ago to try and find out where in the Austro-Hungarian Empire my great-grand father was born. The results included Central Europe but the surprise was Northern Ireland. When I said not possible the sample technique was explained. Turns out that if I go into a bar in Belfast there is a million to one chance there will be a Viking with the same tiny DNA strand. No Chance of a free Guinness. What is more useful are the family group tests that Nancy referred to. For this test, groups with a common ancestor based on paper research directly compare DNA, no sample populations. This identifies the common DNA strand which can be used to confirm cousins who want to join the group. This type of testing can be arranged through the Guild of One-Name Studies (GOONS) and is of the type used in Forensic Archaeology. The main benefit is that it verifies the paper trail (or not). I have noticed that My Heritage and others are talking about gene screening for medical reasons. I am not sure I like the idea of being told I have a new match and, by the way, I will be dead within a week. I prefer the NHS. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Jane Lucas via DEVON [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 06 November 2019 17:01 To: [email protected] Cc: Jane Lucas Subject: [DEV] British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA I just wanted to say hank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion under the Devon and Cornwall thread. I renamed it. When I tried to send this earlier it didn’t appear. It is fascinating and some really useful arguments. As Joy (Langdon) says though, no one is going to stick their neck out and say that we have all the answers. Thanks Joy for the reminder about the Ipplepen finds. I remember reading about it recently and meant to follow it up. I have direct ancestors from there so any additional information is always interesting. The work done in recent years at Hadrien’s wall also raises questions about earlier assumptions. Paul (Hockie), thanks for clarifying Ancestry DNA techniques. It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test.. even if I can persuade my brothers! I do think the study I referred to in the original post has given us some answers and more clarity. We now have a 'fine scale genetic map' of the British Isles, thanks to researchers at the University of Oxford. The Study was published in Nature in 2015. I only found it earlier this year though. This is the link to the background. I can’t comment on the DNA techniques used as I don’t know enough about it. But I’m sure some of you do. http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles <http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles> The bit that is most interesting, to me at any rate, is the DNA clusters and geographic groupings. "There are separate genetic groups in Cornwall and Devon, with a division almost exactly along the modern county boundary.” That is completely fascinating! Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, said 'The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons.' Regards Jane _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi Judy I am delighted that your husband has found his roots.  As for "Ethnicity" this is the one thing that is far from accurate. In fact they keep changing every few months and I don't know how they work that one out.  How can it change? I managed to track down a woman who had done her DNA and never responded. I needed her information desparately as it was obvious she was a 1st cousin of an adopted lady I was helping and she was the final key to my success.  Eventually, through someone who was vaguely on the other side of her family (through a husband) I found she was a specialist in Egyptology.  Still no name but I googled (Google is your best friend) then found an email address which was very similar and I knew I was there.  I was able to contact her and, yes, I had the right person and she was delighted to hear from me. It transpires that the email address she used on the DNA site was no longer in use. She could have changed it!  So, researchers, if you change your email address, do change it on your DNA sites. Liz On 06/11/2019 20:25, Heywyre Akers wrote: > As Liz has noted, it is frustrating when individuals do not post trees after taking a DNA test, however in defence of them I have noted that with the popularity of a lot of "find your roots" type of programs, the vast majority of people take DNA tests strictly to find their ethnicity and nothing more, that is their prerogative > > I am also aware of several family members that thought making a tree would be "easy" and "fun" and had no clue of the time investment needed. As much as a lot of us claim this to be a "hobby" there is nothing flippant about this hobby either. > > As a wife of a man that found out he was adopted at the age of 55, my "hobby" began, mostly when there was little to go on and intermediaries were needed as he had immigrated to Canada at the age of 5 and his adoptive parents were long gone and no one to ask questions to. > > Here I am, 20+ years later and within a few months of doing his DNA he now knows his genetic identity. DNA was our path to find the much needed answers and there was nothing "fun" or "easy" about it but it was VERY rewarding. > > We have to respect that not everyone is on the same path as we are. I weed out the ones I can and ignore others, focusing on the few that strive for that connection. > > Judy > BC Canada > ________________________________ > From: Caren Wilcox <[email protected]> > Sent: November 6, 2019 12:12 PM > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Cc: 'Liz Youle' <[email protected]> > Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA > > This commentary somewhat tracks one of my reasons for the DNA test. I have enjoyed seeing profiles of distant cousins (I do come from a huge family, and was raised away from most of them) but I also try to help people who say they are looking for family after adoption, or simply being like me - raised far away from biological family. Thanks for this good comment. Caren > > -----Original Message----- > From: Liz Youle via DEVON [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 2:00 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Liz Youle > Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA > > Although I have a lot of Devon and Cornwall people on my tree, none of > them are my direct ancestors, most belong to my granddaughter. > > Why did I do a DNA test? I certainly didn't expect to find anyone with > my maiden name of Youle as we are an extremely small family. My > grandfather had only 4 children - 2 girls and 2 boys. None of the > children had boys so the line died out. My great grandfather only had 2 > girls and the one boy (my grandfather). My great great grandfather had > only one child. > > My reason for taking a DNA was to help people with illegitimacy and/or > adoption. These people need our help as their reason for taking a DNA > test is to find out their roots if possible. This is real detective > work and I've really enjoyed helping people solve their roots. My > problem is all those people who take a DNA test but do not put any tree > and/or do not respond to emails. I feel there should be somewhere on > these sites where we can comment that the person does not respond to > emails. They are wasting their money and my time. > > My mother's final cousin (of 42 descendants of one man and his wife) has > had his DNA done and I've put it on Ged-match with my email address but > I've never had a response and I know there are people connected to him. > I always reply. > > It has been an absolute pleasure to have helped several people and I > will continue to help as long as I can. > > Liz > > On 06/11/2019 18:18, Nancy Frey wrote: >> Hi Jane, >> >> Before doing anything more about DNA testing I think you need to >> define what you want to find out who you need to test and where is the >> best place to test for that. One of my colleagues blogs on the >> subject. Her name is Roberta Estes and her blog is DNAeXplained at >> https://dna-explained.com/. She writes for the layman. Reading some >> of her articles will give you a better idea of where, what and who to >> test. Family Tree DNA is, I believe the only lab who do Y-DNA >> testing. The most popular test today is Autosomal. There are other >> types of tests. I did an MtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA) which traces the >> DNA passed from mother to daughter. >> >> As an example, under Bobbi's guidance I was able to set up a DAVIDGE >> DNA group at Family Tree DNA. Our goal was to define a Y-DNA >> signature for the surname, if possible. We ended up with several men >> testing and the results showed a couple of distinctly different >> Haplogroups. Doing the genealogy we discovered that in each case the >> man whose Haplogroup did not match the majority had descended from an >> NPE (non-paternal event) being in their case, not adoption, but >> illegitimacy. At one time a male was registered with his mother's >> surname and while that branch carries the DAVIDGE surname it carries >> no DAVIDGE Y-DNA. This testing leads me to believe that two brick >> wall DAVIDGE men, one in Newfoundland and another in the US are indeed >> descended from a DAVIDGE. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Nancy Frey, >> Windsor, ON, Canada >> OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset; >> [email protected] >> >> On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 12:02 PM Jane Lucas via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: >>> I just wanted to say hank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion under the Devon and Cornwall thread. I renamed it. When I tried to send this earlier it didn’t appear. >>> >>> It is fascinating and some really useful arguments. As Joy (Langdon) says though, no one is going to stick their neck out and say that we have all the answers. Thanks Joy for the reminder about the Ipplepen finds. I remember reading about it recently and meant to follow it up. I have direct ancestors from there so any additional information is always interesting. The work done in recent years at Hadrien’s wall also raises questions about earlier assumptions. >>> >>> Paul (Hockie), thanks for clarifying Ancestry DNA techniques. It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test.. even if I can persuade my brothers! >>> >>> I do think the study I referred to in the original post has given us some answers and more clarity. We now have a 'fine scale genetic map' of the British Isles, thanks to researchers at the University of Oxford. The Study was published in Nature in 2015. I only found it earlier this year though. This is the link to the background. I can’t comment on the DNA techniques used as I don’t know enough about it. But I’m sure some of you do. >>> >>> >>> http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles <http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles> >>> >>> >>> The bit that is most interesting, to me at any rate, is the DNA clusters and geographic groupings. >>> >>> "There are separate genetic groups in Cornwall and Devon, with a division almost exactly along the modern county boundary.” That is completely fascinating! >>> >>> Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, said 'The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons.' >>> >>> Regards >>> Jane >> _______________________________________________ >> ------------------------------------------ >> The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >> http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >> _______________________________________________ >> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >> Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

As Liz has noted, it is frustrating when individuals do not post trees after taking a DNA test, however in defence of them I have noted that with the popularity of a lot of "find your roots" type of programs, the vast majority of people take DNA tests strictly to find their ethnicity and nothing more, that is their prerogative I am also aware of several family members that thought making a tree would be "easy" and "fun" and had no clue of the time investment needed. As much as a lot of us claim this to be a "hobby" there is nothing flippant about this hobby either. As a wife of a man that found out he was adopted at the age of 55, my "hobby" began, mostly when there was little to go on and intermediaries were needed as he had immigrated to Canada at the age of 5 and his adoptive parents were long gone and no one to ask questions to. Here I am, 20+ years later and within a few months of doing his DNA he now knows his genetic identity. DNA was our path to find the much needed answers and there was nothing "fun" or "easy" about it but it was VERY rewarding. We have to respect that not everyone is on the same path as we are. I weed out the ones I can and ignore others, focusing on the few that strive for that connection. Judy BC Canada ________________________________ From: Caren Wilcox <[email protected]> Sent: November 6, 2019 12:12 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Cc: 'Liz Youle' <[email protected]> Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA This commentary somewhat tracks one of my reasons for the DNA test. I have enjoyed seeing profiles of distant cousins (I do come from a huge family, and was raised away from most of them) but I also try to help people who say they are looking for family after adoption, or simply being like me - raised far away from biological family. Thanks for this good comment. Caren -----Original Message----- From: Liz Youle via DEVON [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 2:00 PM To: [email protected] Cc: Liz Youle Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA Although I have a lot of Devon and Cornwall people on my tree, none of them are my direct ancestors, most belong to my granddaughter. Why did I do a DNA test? I certainly didn't expect to find anyone with my maiden name of Youle as we are an extremely small family. My grandfather had only 4 children - 2 girls and 2 boys. None of the children had boys so the line died out. My great grandfather only had 2 girls and the one boy (my grandfather). My great great grandfather had only one child. My reason for taking a DNA was to help people with illegitimacy and/or adoption. These people need our help as their reason for taking a DNA test is to find out their roots if possible. This is real detective work and I've really enjoyed helping people solve their roots. My problem is all those people who take a DNA test but do not put any tree and/or do not respond to emails. I feel there should be somewhere on these sites where we can comment that the person does not respond to emails. They are wasting their money and my time. My mother's final cousin (of 42 descendants of one man and his wife) has had his DNA done and I've put it on Ged-match with my email address but I've never had a response and I know there are people connected to him. I always reply. It has been an absolute pleasure to have helped several people and I will continue to help as long as I can. Liz On 06/11/2019 18:18, Nancy Frey wrote: > Hi Jane, > > Before doing anything more about DNA testing I think you need to > define what you want to find out who you need to test and where is the > best place to test for that. One of my colleagues blogs on the > subject. Her name is Roberta Estes and her blog is DNAeXplained at > https://dna-explained.com/. She writes for the layman. Reading some > of her articles will give you a better idea of where, what and who to > test. Family Tree DNA is, I believe the only lab who do Y-DNA > testing. The most popular test today is Autosomal. There are other > types of tests. I did an MtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA) which traces the > DNA passed from mother to daughter. > > As an example, under Bobbi's guidance I was able to set up a DAVIDGE > DNA group at Family Tree DNA. Our goal was to define a Y-DNA > signature for the surname, if possible. We ended up with several men > testing and the results showed a couple of distinctly different > Haplogroups. Doing the genealogy we discovered that in each case the > man whose Haplogroup did not match the majority had descended from an > NPE (non-paternal event) being in their case, not adoption, but > illegitimacy. At one time a male was registered with his mother's > surname and while that branch carries the DAVIDGE surname it carries > no DAVIDGE Y-DNA. This testing leads me to believe that two brick > wall DAVIDGE men, one in Newfoundland and another in the US are indeed > descended from a DAVIDGE. > > Cheers, > > Nancy Frey, > Windsor, ON, Canada > OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset; > [email protected] > > On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 12:02 PM Jane Lucas via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: >> I just wanted to say hank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion under the Devon and Cornwall thread. I renamed it. When I tried to send this earlier it didn’t appear. >> >> It is fascinating and some really useful arguments. As Joy (Langdon) says though, no one is going to stick their neck out and say that we have all the answers. Thanks Joy for the reminder about the Ipplepen finds. I remember reading about it recently and meant to follow it up. I have direct ancestors from there so any additional information is always interesting. The work done in recent years at Hadrien’s wall also raises questions about earlier assumptions. >> >> Paul (Hockie), thanks for clarifying Ancestry DNA techniques. It makes me wonder if it’s worth doing a DNA test.. even if I can persuade my brothers! >> >> I do think the study I referred to in the original post has given us some answers and more clarity. We now have a 'fine scale genetic map' of the British Isles, thanks to researchers at the University of Oxford. The Study was published in Nature in 2015. I only found it earlier this year though. This is the link to the background. I can’t comment on the DNA techniques used as I don’t know enough about it. But I’m sure some of you do. >> >> >> http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles <http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles> >> >> >> The bit that is most interesting, to me at any rate, is the DNA clusters and geographic groupings. >> >> "There are separate genetic groups in Cornwall and Devon, with a division almost exactly along the modern county boundary.” That is completely fascinating! >> >> Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist on the project from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, said 'The results give an answer to the question we had never previously thought we would be able to ask about the degree of British survival after the collapse of Roman Britain and the coming of the Saxons.' >> >> Regards >> Jane > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Nancy, I am not sure I was very clear. Occupying legions served a "Tour of Duty" in the same way as British Regiments served in Canada (my wife's ancestor spent 10 years in Nova Scotia before being moved to Majorca). At the end of the tour they moved on although not all survived until the end of the tour. They lived in camps and were forbidden to marry - mostly to prevent children claiming Roman citizenship. Marriage, anyway, was a business arrangement for the Romans. Outside the camp was the Vicus which grew up to supply the legions recreational needs, many grew into towns. The Vicus offered taverns, brothels shops for the poor soldier from North Africa who found himself walking up and down Hadrian's Wall. The soldier who left as part of the exodus may have only been in Britain 10 years. Like everything else there would be exceptions. Senior military and, for want of a better word, civil servants would bring their wives with them for the duration. Over time higher echelons of British society adopted the Roman way of life, some marrying, having children and remaining in Britain. Overall this would account for only a small portion of the population. One thing that has not been touched on is DNA survival. For the comparison of the DNA of Richard III and the Tsar of Russia and his family only a handful of proven descendants could be found. As far as I am aware no-one knows if the 2 million who survived had "stronger" genes than those who died. Were the Normans and Romans just not "fit" in Darwin terms. This is classic survival of the fittest. At the other end of the scale one of last years Who Do You Think You Are featured an athlete from a small island off the coast of Ireland. Apparently the people of the island and a small part of the coast were so isolated that their DNA could be traced directly back to the Stone Age migrants who crossed from Europe via the land bridge (Doggerland) and before Ireland drifted out into the Atlantic. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Frey [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 06 November 2019 16:20 To: [email protected] Cc: Paul Hockie Subject: Re: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Hi Paul, I agree with much that you say. My point was that the soldier who was 'withdrawn' was several generations removed from the one who had arrived 400 years ago. Whatever country his ancestors came from was totally foreign to him. I am sure that far more than we realized stayed in what would become the United Kingdom. Cheers., Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:50 PM Paul Hockie via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > > The problem is that Roman soldiers were not Roman apart from the senior commanders. The number of Romans was too small to occupy the empire so the policy was to recruit soldiers throughout the empire but not to station them in their "home" country. They reasoned, quite sensibly, that arming the locals was a recipe for revolt so they used troops, regular and auxiliaries, who had no interest in local events. Until the army reforms of the 1870s the British Army operated a similar policy to policing the UK, especially Ireland. It may be true that your family are descended from a legionnaire but he could well be from anywhere from North Africa to North Europe. Legions were also moved around the empire at regular intervals, again, like the British Army and were forbidden to marry although "comforts" were provided. While some may have stayed behind with a local girl, the rest marched to their next posting. From memory, the reason the Romans withdrew around 400AD was that the legions had been withdrawn to Gaul to fight the revolting Goths, Visigoths etc. (Who eventually sacked Rome itself). > > Cheers