Hi Ruth, In connection with the Lost Colony Research Project I have done a Family Tree for all the BERRY (and variations) in Devon and have 15 Anthonys all born before 1600. My search was to find a Richard BERRY related to a Henry BERRY who were listed as on the 1587 voyage to Roanoke. So my research ended in the 1600s. I suspect I have your Anthony in this tree, but need more information. I do have at least one marriage to a SOUTHCOTT. The BERRY families appear in several Visitations and not always with the same information. These Pedigrees were submitted by family members. I've sort of matched them all up to get a consensus. If you think I can help, contact me off list. I do not rely on family trees online. Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 4:03 AM Ruth Wilson via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > Thank you for posting this. I have been doing my family tree since the 1970’s. Long hours in Devon Record Office perusing the actual registers and Bishop’s Transcripts. Once the records appeared on Find my Past I followed all branches of my father’s ancestors and had persuaded myself that nobody had ever moved more than 15 miles from Barnstaple. On one of my female lines I had got back to Anthony Berry of Lobb (in Braunton). This was easy walking distance from where I grew up and one of my favourite walks. However within the last couple of months I came across the Berry ‘Visitations of Devon’ Anthony apparently married a Katherine Southcott. The Southcotts also have an entry in the Visitations and her mother was Martha Grenville baptised at Kilkhampton, daughter of Richard Grenville of Penheale Manor. This took me to the fascinating history of the Grenvilles. > The only trouble is that I am never sure how much to believe of the various trees that abound on the internet. I certainly don’t believe everything but it has been great fun. > > Ruth >

Hi Mike, Looks interesting and I'd love to read his book on the Grenvilles. Hope it is better than the one Andy Powell, former mayor of Bideford wrote. I signed up for the newsletter. . Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 4:25 PM Mike Mallett via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > > I spotted this on a photography blog but there's a wealth of info about Devon and the family > > https://www.macfilos.com/2019/11/08/fuji-in-devon-and-cornwall-a-week-of-rain-and-six-centuries-of-grenvilles > > > Mike

Hello Diana, The best way to start is to check the 1851 census for a Peter White born Modbury c1796 and there is one, occupation currier, living at Portsea, Hampshire with wife Louisa and two daughters. He is also a currier on the 1841 census and he only has daughter, Rebecca, living with him and Louisa. In 1861 he is an alderman and magistrate and son Francis is the currier. They named one of their children Francis Symons White (born 1842 christened 1869 at Portsmouth - see www.familysearch.org.uk) so I think this is definitely the Peter White baptised at Modbury. Judging by the late baptism for Francis they weren't too bothered about baptising their children but Peter was clearly a very successful and prosperous currier, going by his civic status in 1861, so why would Frederick call him a boot maker? Have you investigated Scotland or Ireland as Frederick's birthplace? If Isabella is the Isabella White on the 1851 census working as a servant in the household of Stephen Denison then her birthplace was Aberdeen and the couple could have met before moving to London and getting married. I searched the 1851 census for "Peter White boot maker London" and the one returned, born in Scotland, is too young to be Frederick's father but could he be a brother, occupations sometimes ran in the family? Maybe the Peter White who witnessed Frederick's wedding? He and his wife, Mary, and family are living in Westminster. Peter was born c1821. In 1851 there is also a Peter White, shoemaker, and wife Lucy, born Ireland living in David Street, Marylebone. The ages in the census boxes are "NK" (not known) and someone has scribbled that out and added 35 at the side in another hand which makes the age accuracy suspicious. Is there an address on their daughter's birth certificate? It might be worth doing and address search on the 1851 census. Sometimes mother's sought assistance with births from female relatives and you might find a White or Gair living in the street. I think Isabella died 28 April 1867 Madras, India (see www.familysearch.org). She was born c1828. Frederick John remarried Emely Zetilla (Letitia) Scoble at Madras on 7 Jan 1869, both partners are widowed, groom's father Peter and bride's father Robert Neath. Frederick's age was 39. (also see familysearch). The couple named one of their children Robert Melville White so Melville could be a name in the White or Neath ancestry. If I spot anything I will let you know. Joy ------ Original Message ------ From: "Diana Trenchard via DEVON" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: "Diana Trenchard" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 8 Nov, 2019 At 22:58 Subject: [DEV] Peter WHITE bp 1796 Modbury Can anyone help me either to claim or to discard Peter WHITE (bp 1796 Modbury) as my 4g grandfather? My 3g grandfather Frederick John WHITE (FJW) was born at an unknown date and place. However, his marriage certificate names FJW's father as Peter, a boot-maker. WHITE being a very common surname makes great difficulties in researching it. I think I have now eliminated all other available Peters except this one mentioned above, about whom I can find no details apart from his baptism with parents Peter and Sarah (SYMONS).. FJW's known details are- 1850 Aug 5 he married Isabella GAIR in St Mary's, Paddington Green MDX, being described as a tailor and with father Peter, a boot-maker. Witnesses were Peter WHITE and Laura HUTCHINGS. 1851 census neither Peter nor FJW found. 1852 he was a tailor in Clerkenwell on birth certificate of his daughter Isabella (my ggrandmother). 1854 Gunner, 1st Battalion Artillery, Madras, India. From then on all records of FJW are in India. No record of the Attestation papers of FJW have yet been found which would give his place of birth - probably my inefficiency. I wondered if Peter WHITE pf Modbury joined the army, like his possible son FJW, which would explain missing records - or is it my inefficiency?In the 1851 census an Elizabeth WHITE is a live-in servant in London, claiming that she is married - suggestive that she is the wife od a soldier, but that may be me clutching at straws! Thanks in advance for any help or advice. Diana _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ <http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/> and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ <http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/> ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref <http://bit.ly/rootswebpref> Unsubscribe [email protected]">https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY <https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY> Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 <https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog <http://rootsweb.blog> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Dear Mike, Thank you for posting this. I have been doing my family tree since the 1970’s. Long hours in Devon Record Office perusing the actual registers and Bishop’s Transcripts. Once the records appeared on Find my Past I followed all branches of my father’s ancestors and had persuaded myself that nobody had ever moved more than 15 miles from Barnstaple. On one of my female lines I had got back to Anthony Berry of Lobb (in Braunton). This was easy walking distance from where I grew up and one of my favourite walks. However within the last couple of months I came across the Berry ‘Visitations of Devon’ Anthony apparently married a Katherine Southcott. The Southcotts also have an entry in the Visitations and her mother was Martha Grenville baptised at Kilkhampton, daughter of Richard Grenville of Penheale Manor. This took me to the fascinating history of the Grenvilles. The only trouble is that I am never sure how much to believe of the various trees that abound on the internet. I certainly don’t believe everything but it has been great fun. Ruth > On 8 Nov 2019, at 21:24, Mike Mallett via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > > I spotted this on a photography blog but there's a wealth of info about Devon and the family > > https://www.macfilos.com/2019/11/08/fuji-in-devon-and-cornwall-a-week-of-rain-and-six-centuries-of-grenvilles > > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Don't forget the prisoners of war in the Spanish Barn in Torquay.  Did they all return home? if not and they married locally that could account for the skin tone. John On 9/11/2019 10:50 am, Marie McCulloch wrote: > Sorry I forgot to add that besides the dark/black hair and blue eyes they mentioned the olive skin tone…… of course that could have come from another line. > My Devon and other lines are my mother’s side of the family and my father’s line is Viking related and they certainly travelled the known world. > > I have spent over 40 years tracing all lines and it has been a real revelation. > > Marie > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: joy.langdon--- via DEVON > Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2019 10:36 AM > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes > > > Yes, we have that colouring in my father's Cornish/Devonshire family. I > worked abroad back in the 1970s and a group of us were having lunch with > some of the local staff and they said to the two other English employees > in the group that they would know they were English if they saw them in > the street but they turned to me and said that they wouldn't have known > I was. I explained about Cornwall. I was convinced my DNA test would > result in something exotic but it hasn't. England, Scotland and Ireland > 97% and a mysterious 3% German. > > The looks don't appear to come from Wales, though, the study done by > Oxford University says that Cornish DNA is closer to Devon's DNA than to > Welsh (see the link Jane posted). Just to confuse the issue even more, > the Welsh DNA is said to be closest to the original hunter gatherer > inhabitants of Britain before the agriculturalists arrived and my Mtdna > (U5) is the Mtdna associated with them. Mtdna is passed from mother to > daughter so that comes from my mother's Scottish ancestry who have > blonde and red hair so it just goes to show how complex it is and there > are no easy answers. > > And harking back to Nancy's comment about blue eyes, apparently, all of > us who have blue eyes have a common ancestor about 10,000 years ago. > https://news.ku.dk/all_news/2008/blue-eyes/ > > And DNA investigation of "Cheddar Man" (whose Mtdna was also U5) > resulted in surprising colouring: > https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/cheddar-man-mesolithic-britain-blue-eyed-boy.html > > People moved around much more than we expect in the distant past and > modern scientific testing keeps revealing the most surprising things. > The "Amesbury Archer" who was found buried near Stonehenge and was > possibly involved in the construction of Stonehenge had spent his early > life in central Europe, either Switzerland, Austria or Germany. The > grave is the richest found in Britain from the early bronze age so he > was a person of great importance and has also been nicknamed the "King > of Stonehenge". > > Joy > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Sorry I forgot to add that besides the dark/black hair and blue eyes they mentioned the olive skin tone…… of course that could have come from another line. My Devon and other lines are my mother’s side of the family and my father’s line is Viking related and they certainly travelled the known world. I have spent over 40 years tracing all lines and it has been a real revelation. Marie Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: joy.langdon--- via DEVON Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2019 10:36 AM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Yes, we have that colouring in my father's Cornish/Devonshire family. I worked abroad back in the 1970s and a group of us were having lunch with some of the local staff and they said to the two other English employees in the group that they would know they were English if they saw them in the street but they turned to me and said that they wouldn't have known I was. I explained about Cornwall. I was convinced my DNA test would result in something exotic but it hasn't. England, Scotland and Ireland 97% and a mysterious 3% German. The looks don't appear to come from Wales, though, the study done by Oxford University says that Cornish DNA is closer to Devon's DNA than to Welsh (see the link Jane posted). Just to confuse the issue even more, the Welsh DNA is said to be closest to the original hunter gatherer inhabitants of Britain before the agriculturalists arrived and my Mtdna (U5) is the Mtdna associated with them. Mtdna is passed from mother to daughter so that comes from my mother's Scottish ancestry who have blonde and red hair so it just goes to show how complex it is and there are no easy answers. And harking back to Nancy's comment about blue eyes, apparently, all of us who have blue eyes have a common ancestor about 10,000 years ago. https://news.ku.dk/all_news/2008/blue-eyes/ And DNA investigation of "Cheddar Man" (whose Mtdna was also U5) resulted in surprising colouring: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/cheddar-man-mesolithic-britain-blue-eyed-boy.html People moved around much more than we expect in the distant past and modern scientific testing keeps revealing the most surprising things. The "Amesbury Archer" who was found buried near Stonehenge and was possibly involved in the construction of Stonehenge had spent his early life in central Europe, either Switzerland, Austria or Germany. The grave is the richest found in Britain from the early bronze age so he was a person of great importance and has also been nicknamed the "King of Stonehenge". Joy

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 22:59, Diana Trenchard via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: ... > 1854 Gunner, 1st Battalion Artillery, Madras, India. > From then on all records of FJW are in India. > > No record of the Attestation papers of FJW have yet been found which would give his place of birth - probably my inefficiency. ... Not necessarily your fault at all - attestation papers (or extracts from them transcribed onto discharge papers) were only retained by the British Army at this time if the guy served until he left the Army with some sort of a pension - either (to use modern terms) a long-service pension or a retirement-thru-ill-health pension. If he left the Army before earning a pension, his papers were destroyed. Ditto if he died in service. Just to make life even more difficult, some artillery soldiers did retire with pensions but their retirement wasn't recorded in the same way as the rest of the Army, with discharge documents (or equivalents), just entries in big registers - and what those registers contained, I'm not sure. And it also occurs to me that you've just said "1st Battalion Artillery, Madras, India" - I have no idea whether this is the British Army or the Madras Presidency Army of the East India Company - the British Army served in India but so did the 3 armies of the East India Company - which, after the Indian Mutiny, were split between the British Army and 3 "Indian" armies of the Raj. So... don't feel that it's your fault that you can't find those papers! Adrian

Yes, we have that colouring in my father's Cornish/Devonshire family. I worked abroad back in the 1970s and a group of us were having lunch with some of the local staff and they said to the two other English employees in the group that they would know they were English if they saw them in the street but they turned to me and said that they wouldn't have known I was. I explained about Cornwall. I was convinced my DNA test would result in something exotic but it hasn't. England, Scotland and Ireland 97% and a mysterious 3% German. The looks don't appear to come from Wales, though, the study done by Oxford University says that Cornish DNA is closer to Devon's DNA than to Welsh (see the link Jane posted). Just to confuse the issue even more, the Welsh DNA is said to be closest to the original hunter gatherer inhabitants of Britain before the agriculturalists arrived and my Mtdna (U5) is the Mtdna associated with them. Mtdna is passed from mother to daughter so that comes from my mother's Scottish ancestry who have blonde and red hair so it just goes to show how complex it is and there are no easy answers. And harking back to Nancy's comment about blue eyes, apparently, all of us who have blue eyes have a common ancestor about 10,000 years ago. https://news.ku.dk/all_news/2008/blue-eyes/ And DNA investigation of "Cheddar Man" (whose Mtdna was also U5) resulted in surprising colouring: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/cheddar-man-mesolithic-britain-blue-eyed-boy.html People moved around much more than we expect in the distant past and modern scientific testing keeps revealing the most surprising things. The "Amesbury Archer" who was found buried near Stonehenge and was possibly involved in the construction of Stonehenge had spent his early life in central Europe, either Switzerland, Austria or Germany. The grave is the richest found in Britain from the early bronze age so he was a person of great importance and has also been nicknamed the "King of Stonehenge". Joy ------ Original Message ------ From: "Marie McCulloch" <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 8 Nov, 2019 At 22:35 Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Hi Joy Many thanks for the web site address. From what I have read over decades there was a lot of trading with Tin and other commodities between the various countries. Not to mention the trade with Wales. Several in the family have been told they had typical Welsh colouring…….. dark hair, blue eyes etc. Regards Marie Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: joy.langdon--- via DEVON Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2019 5:29 AM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Early trade between Cornwall and the Mediterranean has been suggested for a long time and my November/December copy of "British Archaeology" reported that scientists have identified Cornish tin ingots found at Late Bronze Age wreck sites in the Eastern Mediterranean. Of course, it doesn't prove direct contact, the tin could have been traded in stages. Here is the report in "The Times". https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cornish-tin-found-in-israel-is-hard-evidence-of-earliest-trade-links-wg8qt6hhj <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cornish-tin-found-in-israel-is-hard-evidence-of-earliest-trade-links-wg8qt6hhj> Joy _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ <http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/> and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ <http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/> ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref <http://bit.ly/rootswebpref> Unsubscribe [email protected]">https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY <https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY> Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 <https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog <http://rootsweb.blog> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Can anyone help me either to claim or to discard Peter WHITE (bp 1796 Modbury) as my 4g grandfather? My 3g grandfather Frederick John WHITE (FJW) was born at an unknown date and place. However, his marriage certificate names FJW's father as Peter, a boot-maker. WHITE being a very common surname makes great difficulties in researching it. I think I have now eliminated all other available Peters except this one mentioned above, about whom I can find no details apart from his baptism with parents Peter and Sarah (SYMONS).. FJW's known details are- 1850 Aug 5 he married Isabella GAIR in St Mary's, Paddington Green MDX, being described as a tailor and with father Peter, a boot-maker. Witnesses were Peter WHITE and Laura HUTCHINGS. 1851 census neither Peter nor FJW found. 1852 he was a tailor in Clerkenwell on birth certificate of his daughter Isabella (my ggrandmother). 1854 Gunner, 1st Battalion Artillery, Madras, India. From then on all records of FJW are in India. No record of the Attestation papers of FJW have yet been found which would give his place of birth - probably my inefficiency. I wondered if Peter WHITE pf Modbury joined the army, like his possible son FJW, which would explain missing records - or is it my inefficiency?In the 1851 census an Elizabeth WHITE is a live-in servant in London, claiming that she is married - suggestive that she is the wife od a soldier, but that may be me clutching at straws! Thanks in advance for any help or advice. Diana

Yes Mike many people forget about the army of hanger-ons that travelled with the invading armies. Remember also they were not all Romans. Marie Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Mike Mallett via DEVON Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2019 8:35 AM To: [email protected]; 'Paul Hockie' Cc: [email protected] Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes I'm not an expert on the Roman army but although other ranks were not allowed to marry, unofficially they seemed to have companions. Centurions and above could marry and of course many civilians would have followed the legion. If they managed to complete their term of service (usually 25 years) they would often be given a grant of land to settle locally. M

Hi Joy Many thanks for the web site address. From what I have read over decades there was a lot of trading with Tin and other commodities between the various countries. Not to mention the trade with Wales. Several in the family have been told they had typical Welsh colouring…….. dark hair, blue eyes etc. Regards Marie Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: joy.langdon--- via DEVON Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2019 5:29 AM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Early trade between Cornwall and the Mediterranean has been suggested for a long time and my November/December copy of "British Archaeology" reported that scientists have identified Cornish tin ingots found at Late Bronze Age wreck sites in the Eastern Mediterranean. Of course, it doesn't prove direct contact, the tin could have been traded in stages. Here is the report in "The Times". https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cornish-tin-found-in-israel-is-hard-evidence-of-earliest-trade-links-wg8qt6hhj Joy

Thanks Paul – I used to watch that program all the time. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Paul Hockie via DEVON Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2019 4:29 AM To: [email protected] Cc: Paul Hockie Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes There was a TimeTeam episode where they dug up a “harbour” in Cornwall and found evidence of trading throughout the known world. I would feel sure these sailors had a girl in every port and that a handful jumped ship. However this was over 2000 years ago so finding a descendant may be tricky. To add to the confusion Wikipedia tells me of “the annexation of the Thracian kingdom by the Roman Empire<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>, by order of emperor Claudius<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudius>, in AD 46”. Cheers Paul From: Marie McCulloch [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 07 November 2019 23:56 To: [email protected]; Caren Wilcox Cc: Paul Hockie Subject: RE: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Several decades ago while researching my Cornish family I read that the Phoenicians traded in Cornwall for tin. So we cannot discount the various countries who came from far away to trade as I am sure there must have been intermingling with the Cornish people in more than trade goods. Marie

Thanks Nancy I will have a look….. Regards Marie Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Nancy Frey Sent: Saturday, 9 November 2019 3:59 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Hi Marie, I haven't read it yet, but I downloaded the book "Phoenician Origins of Britons, Scots and Anglo Saxons" by Waddell. I wonder what he has to say about them trading for Cornish tin? Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected]

I'm not an expert on the Roman army but although other ranks were not allowed to marry, unofficially they seemed to have companions. Centurions and above could marry and of course many civilians would have followed the legion. If they managed to complete their term of service (usually 25 years) they would often be given a grant of land to settle locally. M -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Frey <[email protected]> Sent: 06 November 2019 22:29 To: Paul Hockie <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Hi Paul, I get your point. I was following the story of the particular Legion that was stationed in Dorchester and didn't get the impression that there were soldiers leaving and arriving during their time in Britain, but that may have been the case. I'll have to take your word for it for the time being, but I haven't read anything about the soldiers being forbidden to marry. What was a marriage in those days for a Roman? Archealogical excavations have turned up all sorts of coins, issued by the military, in locations believed to be the site of a Vicus. So the soldiers spent their money 'in town'. I am looking at the situation in Dorset, not the isolation of Hadrian's Wall. I still feel my DAVIDGE ancestor was a Roman soldier, lol. If you will all stop speculating about DNA and read Roberta Estes blog, she answers most of these questions with reams of charts and graphs. She outlines how much of your DNA you are likely to get from a grandparent, a great-grandparent, etc. and shows quite clearly how you can figure out which part of your family what segments came from. It is all too complicated for me. As for mutations which some take to account for the "survival of the fittest" there are even some people today who don't agree with Darwin. I'm not into DNA any more than I need to be to understand how it affects the work I am collaborating with Roberta on, but I did take the course at The Pharos Institute to get the basics. It is my understanding that the kind of information required for the study in question is only available from a full sequence DNA test. Anything less is pure guesswork by the programs designed by the various testing labs, all of which are different. Roberta explains all that as well. If you want another opinion, her colleague Blaine Bettinger may be able to confirm what I'm saying on the Facebook page dedicated to the topic at https://www.facebook.com/groups/geneticgenealogytipsandtechniques/. I may be totally misinformed and the Autosomal test done by groups like Ancestry will give the results looked for. If I were doing the study I'd check it out a little more. Sorry, I don't believe everything I see on the TV. Recently there have been discoveries putting migration via a land bridge from Asia to North America in question. Richard III's remains were identified with an MtDNA test which followed his matrilinial line. Mitochondria is passed from mother to child. That's a whole new subject. It was not an Autosomal test through Ancestry. That's the only test Ancestry does. And as I said at the beginning of this thread, I do not believe it is 'on topic' for Rootsweb Devon. Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 3:22 PM Paul Hockie <[email protected]> wrote: > > Nancy, > > I am not sure I was very clear. Occupying legions served a "Tour of > Duty" in the same way as British Regiments served in Canada (my wife's > ancestor spent 10 years in Nova Scotia before being moved to Majorca). > At the end of the tour they moved on although not all survived until > the end of the tour. They lived in camps and were forbidden to marry - > mostly to prevent children claiming Roman citizenship. Marriage, > anyway, was a business arrangement for the Romans. Outside the camp > was the Vicus which grew up to supply the legions recreational needs, > many grew into towns. The Vicus offered taverns, brothels shops for > the poor soldier from North Africa who found himself walking up and > down Hadrian's Wall. The soldier who left as part of the exodus may > have only been in Britain 10 years. Like everything else there would > be exceptions. Senior military and, for want of a better word, civil > servants would bring their wives with them for the duration. Over time > higher echelons of British so ciety adopted the Roman way of life, some marrying, having children and remaining in Britain. Overall this would account for only a small portion of the population. > One thing that has not been touched on is DNA survival. For the comparison of the DNA of Richard III and the Tsar of Russia and his family only a handful of proven descendants could be found. As far as I am aware no-one knows if the 2 million who survived had "stronger" genes than those who died. Were the Normans and Romans just not "fit" in Darwin terms. This is classic survival of the fittest. At the other end of the scale one of last years Who Do You Think You Are featured an athlete from a small island off the coast of Ireland. Apparently the people of the island and a small part of the coast were so isolated that their DNA could be traced directly back to the Stone Age migrants who crossed from Europe via the land bridge (Doggerland) and before Ireland drifted out into the Atlantic. > > Cheers > > Paul _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

I spotted this on a photography blog but there's a wealth of info about Devon and the family https://www.macfilos.com/2019/11/08/fuji-in-devon-and-cornwall-a-week-of-rain-and-six-centuries-of-grenvilles Mike

Early trade between Cornwall and the Mediterranean has been suggested for a long time and my November/December copy of "British Archaeology" reported that scientists have identified Cornish tin ingots found at Late Bronze Age wreck sites in the Eastern Mediterranean. Of course, it doesn't prove direct contact, the tin could have been traded in stages. Here is the report in "The Times". https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cornish-tin-found-in-israel-is-hard-evidence-of-earliest-trade-links-wg8qt6hhj Joy ------ Original Message ------ From: "Nancy Frey" <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 8 Nov, 2019 At 16:58 Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Hi Marie, I haven't read it yet, but I downloaded the book "Phoenician Origins of Britons, Scots and Anglo Saxons" by Waddell. I wonder what he has to say about them trading for Cornish tin? Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] _____________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ <http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/> and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ <http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/> ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref <http://bit.ly/rootswebpref> Unsubscribe [email protected]">https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] <https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/<span class=> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY <https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY> Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 <https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog <http://rootsweb.blog> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

There was a TimeTeam episode where they dug up a “harbour” in Cornwall and found evidence of trading throughout the known world. I would feel sure these sailors had a girl in every port and that a handful jumped ship. However this was over 2000 years ago so finding a descendant may be tricky. To add to the confusion Wikipedia tells me of “the annexation of the Thracian kingdom by the Roman Empire<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>, by order of emperor Claudius<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudius>, in AD 46”. Cheers Paul From: Marie McCulloch [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 07 November 2019 23:56 To: [email protected]; Caren Wilcox Cc: Paul Hockie Subject: RE: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Several decades ago while researching my Cornish family I read that the Phoenicians traded in Cornwall for tin. So we cannot discount the various countries who came from far away to trade as I am sure there must have been intermingling with the Cornish people in more than trade goods. Marie Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 From: Paul Hockie via DEVON<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 8 November 2019 10:47 AM To: Caren Wilcox<mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Paul Hockie<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [DEV] Re: Brits genes Caren, Probably longer ago than I think, there were articles that compared cave drawings in France with some in Arizona, together with some other finds. At the time it was thought (I didn't read the rationale) the connection was via the Russia/Alaska land bridge. I don't think they had got as far as DNA testing. The researchers were reputable and based in both Arizona and France. Cheers Paul

Diane, Was it an Ancestry type test or a group test. Ancestry tests will not help as they test against an ever changing population. They could not even identify identical twins and gave them different results. A group test will directly compare you and your cousin and it would be a good idea to get the other cousin to contribute. Don't forget Mrs Toy may have been having fun while her husband was at sea. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Diane Foster [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 08 November 2019 05:04 To: [email protected] Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and Cornwall DNA Hello All Listers, especially those who are feeling "bored"! I can't pay but if someone is looking to help me solve a mystery of my maternal grandfather's biological ancestry I would be very grateful and happy to host you on a visit ! Grandad was Charles Henry Toy SUMMERS (CHTS) b 1878 in Falmouth. I have all his records, including birth, census, RN etc., etc., Clara, his mother was not married when he was born, hence he took her maiden name of SUMMERS. CHTS appears in his first Census (1891) as Harry TOY, grandson and living with his maternal grandparents, Charlles and Eliza cross SUMERS, she is nee ALDRIDGE and I have her family roots back to Surrey (all above proven with documents). This indicates to me that his family knew of the relationsh9ip that their daughter probably had with a fellow by the name of TOY. Family stories said that CHTS's father was a sea captain by the surname TOY, out of Falmouth. I found a couple of newspaper articles wherein Clara has taken Charles Henry TOY to Court for maintenance in 1879 , he was a mariner in the RN and I have his papers. Yes, he was in Flamouth at the time of conception! The following year, CHT (supposed father) is married in Plymouth to a Mary Ann GILL, who seems to have been born in Plymouth. CHT (father) died in Sep 1899 at Plymouth. I have two male cousins who are direct descendants of CHTS, one of his sons, James Edward, born Devonport, have had their DNA analysed. I also have the DNA of a gentleman (still living) who is also a TOY, and whose descendants are from Cornwall. TOY being a well known name in Cornwall I believe.. So, I've attempted to look for a DNA match between my two male cousins and the living gentleman. Not match!!!!!! However, I am not very skilled in the matching business fo DNA or understand much of it, despite reading some about it!!! I am now wondering if the living Mr TOY is really from that line, although I wouldn't dare ask him at this stage. Or, if my Grandad, despite his Mother taking CHT to Court, isn't really a TOY. CHT, the RN seaman was in fact living not far from the other SUMMERS families in Devonport, who had left Falmouth to go to Devonport. I wonder if their paths crossed - I guess I'll never know. So, does anyone feel the urge to check things out for me, or, have advice? I'm sorry if this sounds a bit cheeky, but I do see that the many people on the Devon List are always helpful. sincerely, Diane - Wetern Australia On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM fh.researcher via DEVON <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi MikeI have about 20 trees that I've researched for friends. It's a > wonderful way of getting free holidays around the world! I've even given > up checking other trees on Ancestry as some people are just crazy and their > trees are full of errors., especially those who don't use software but put > their trees directly onto sites like Ancestry. We all get the occasional > error in our trees, even those like you and I who have been researching for > years before the internet. I get very cross with myself when that happens. > I recall hearing from a Reverend gentleman in the US who kindly told me I > had an error in my tree. Unfortunately I had to write back to him and tell > him my tree is correct but that I knew his grandfather had left a wife and > family in England and he'd committed bigamy! He was mortified. Two old > school friends from boarding school are coming for lunch today. Being a > boarding school we were from all over the world. One has married my 5th > cousin. The other married a distant connection to my granddaughter. I knew > that was going to happen when I traced him back from Devon (Methodist > Minister's son) as they move around a lot, to Truro and then to West > Cornwall. Everyone in West Cornwall is related umpteen times. Too many > inter-marriages. Not surprising given the geographical location. I'm now > interested in my Maltese puppy's history. Did he really originate from > Malta and if so, when did they arrive on our shores?Cheers, LizSent from > Samsung tablet. > -------- Original message --------From: Mike Gould < > [email protected]> Date: 07/11/2019 21:01 (GMT+00:00) To: > [email protected] Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon and > Cornwall DNA Hi Liz,If you start to feel that it's boring, look at it this > way - in the past, your research was so good that you may have been 95% > sure that it was correct. Now, because the DNA results have been > consistent with your research, you can be even more confident that your > tree is correct !Good research + consistent DNA results = high > confidenceI've even resorted to doing someone else's tree in order to get > that confidence in my own tree.Best wishesMike-----Original > Message-----From: Liz Youle via DEVON <[email protected]> Sent: 07 > November 2019 18:51To: [email protected]: Liz Youle < > [email protected]>Subject: [DEV] Re: British Isles and Devon > and Cornwall DNAI have replied and connected to all those who have "leafs" > beside their names. All 94 of them. There are a couple who are obviously > going to be connected but they definitely have errors and blanks in their > trees and I need to work on them.I haven't really been able to find any new > cousins apart from those over4 generations away. As I started researching > my families back in 1954 there are really no new members of the family that > I can find. No mysteries, it's really quite boring.LizRootsWeb > community_______________________________________________------------------------------------------The > DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devonhttp:// > www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS ( > http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ > )_______________________________________________Email preferences: > http://bit.ly/rootswebprefUnsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blogRootsWeb is > funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS ( > http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/ and Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi Marie, I haven't read it yet, but I downloaded the book "Phoenician Origins of Britons, Scots and Anglo Saxons" by Waddell. I wonder what he has to say about them trading for Cornish tin? Cheers, Nancy Frey, Windsor, ON, Canada OPC for Ansford & Castle Cary, Somerset [email protected] On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 6:55 PM Marie McCulloch <[email protected]> wrote: > > Several decades ago while researching my Cornish family I read that the Phoenicians traded in Cornwall for tin. So we cannot > discount the various countries who came from far away to trade as I am sure there must have been intermingling with the > Cornish people in more than trade goods. > > Marie

Talking about Italians who ended up in Devon.  You would just not believe this. My school friends and their husbands came for lunch today.  Needless to say, I've known them for years and one of the husbands I've researched his family history.  His Devonian grandmother married an Italian from Palermo.  I never knew until today that he has Thalassemia Minor and it has been passed on down to most of his grandsons.  So, if you have Italian blood you really should be checked. Liz