I just realized that I have not had any emails from this list in a long time. Curious! Kind regards Ann Spiro Perth, Western Australia research@sbse.net.au <mailto:research@sbse.ent.au> OLD site: The Blacksmiths & Related Occupations Website : http://tinyurl.com/2948r4v <http://tinyurl.com/2948r4v> NEW site: The Blacksmiths & Related Occupations Website http://blacksmiths.mygenwebs.com <http://blacksmiths@mygenwebs.com> Guild of One Name Studies: Guild ONS Representative for WA & NT. rep-australia-north-west@one-name.org <mailto:rep-australia-north-west@one-name.org> Guild registered surnames: BASKETT; BRIGGS & NUTTY http://www.one-name.org/ <http://www.one-name.org/> Baskett DNA Project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Baskett <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Baskett>

Thanks Joy. Jean -----Original Message----- From: Joy Langdon Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 10:46 AM To: jean.belfit ; devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] PROUT/COLWILL Hello Jean, Greenbank House was part of the Plymouth Workhouse which later became a hospital: http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Plymouth/ Joy ----Original message---- >From : devon@rootsweb.com Date : 21/09/2014 - 10:14 (UTC) To : DEVON@rootsweb.com Subject : [DEV] PROUT/COLWILL Many thanks for your work on this Tim. I’m sorry it’s not the John PROUT in Newton Abbot after all but genealogy’s never simple is it? Wonder what the Hawke’s involvement was? Another brick wall to be climbed. I’d be interested to find out what support was available to Beatrice PROUT in 1924 on the birth of the twin daughters in Greenbank House, Plymouth and whether this was used as a home for pregnant mothers due to give birth. If anyone knows, I’d love to hear from you. Jean ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Do you check your spam folder regularly? Corporate mail servers and Outlook, in particular, are prone to putting "bounces" into spam. Paul -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of SBS Engineers Research via Sent: 21 September 2014 07:04 To: "devon" Subject: [DEV] testing I just realized that I have not had any emails from this list in a long time. Curious! Kind regards Ann Spiro Perth, Western Australia research@sbse.net.au <mailto:research@sbse.ent.au> OLD site: The Blacksmiths & Related Occupations Website : http://tinyurl.com/2948r4v <http://tinyurl.com/2948r4v> NEW site: The Blacksmiths & Related Occupations Website http://blacksmiths.mygenwebs.com <http://blacksmiths@mygenwebs.com> Guild of One Name Studies: Guild ONS Representative for WA & NT. rep-australia-north-west@one-name.org <mailto:rep-australia-north-west@one-name.org> Guild registered surnames: BASKETT; BRIGGS & NUTTY http://www.one-name.org/ <http://www.one-name.org/> Baskett DNA Project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Baskett <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Baskett> ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Jean, Greenbank House was part of the Plymouth Workhouse which later became a hospital: http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Plymouth/ Joy ----Original message---- >From : devon@rootsweb.com Date : 21/09/2014 - 10:14 (UTC) To : DEVON@rootsweb.com Subject : [DEV] PROUT/COLWILL Many thanks for your work on this Tim. I’m sorry it’s not the John PROUT in Newton Abbot after all but genealogy’s never simple is it? Wonder what the Hawke’s involvement was? Another brick wall to be climbed. I’d be interested to find out what support was available to Beatrice PROUT in 1924 on the birth of the twin daughters in Greenbank House, Plymouth and whether this was used as a home for pregnant mothers due to give birth. If anyone knows, I’d love to hear from you. Jean ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just in case no one has come across this before. I have just come across such an event and thought I would share. Does it still apply today? Bev http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu370.htm What is a Conditional Confirmation? A. 1. When the Catholic Church cannot prove through Church documents that a certain person was baptized and confirmed, it does a conditional baptism and/or confirmation. That means if the person was confirmed before, then the conditional confirmation is not valid. A person cannot be confirmed twice. But, if the person was never confirmed before, than the conditional confirmation becomes the official confirmation of the person. When is a conditional confirmation necessary? When a person decides to get married, he/she must supply proof that he/she was baptized and confirmed. When such proof cannot be found because the person does not remember the name of the Church where he/she was confirmed or the records were destroyed by fire, then the Church implements a conditional confirmation. The ceremony for the conditional baptism and confirmation is similar to the standard liturgical procedure. Its implementation is simple and fairly quick, without any public announcements, large ceremonies, etc... Prior to proceding with a conditional confirmation, the pastor must make the necessary arrangements with the Bishop or his delegate.

Many thanks for your work on this Tim. I’m sorry it’s not the John PROUT in Newton Abbot after all but genealogy’s never simple is it? Wonder what the Hawke’s involvement was? Another brick wall to be climbed. I’d be interested to find out what support was available to Beatrice PROUT in 1924 on the birth of the twin daughters in Greenbank House, Plymouth and whether this was used as a home for pregnant mothers due to give birth. If anyone knows, I’d love to hear from you. Jean

There have been plenty of late. -------------------------------------------------- From: "SBS Engineers Research via" <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 7:04 AM To: ""devon"" <DEVON-L@rootsweb.com> Subject: [DEV] testing > I just realized that I have not had any emails from this list in a long > time. Curious! > > > > Kind regards > > Ann Spiro > > Perth, Western Australia > > research@sbse.net.au <mailto:research@sbse.ent.au> > > OLD site: The Blacksmiths & Related Occupations Website : > http://tinyurl.com/2948r4v <http://tinyurl.com/2948r4v> > > NEW site: The Blacksmiths & Related Occupations Website > http://blacksmiths.mygenwebs.com <http://blacksmiths@mygenwebs.com> > > > > Guild of One Name Studies: > > Guild ONS Representative for WA & NT. > rep-australia-north-west@one-name.org > <mailto:rep-australia-north-west@one-name.org> > > Guild registered surnames: BASKETT; BRIGGS & NUTTY > http://www.one-name.org/ <http://www.one-name.org/> > > Baskett DNA Project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Baskett > <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Baskett> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jean, You can forget the PROUT's from Newton Abbot as all 4 show Father as John on their Baptism Records. Looking on FMP have found a John PROUT on the 1901 Census who seems to match your John. Age given as 7 and stated that he was born in North Hill, Cornwall. Don't know who his parents are as is a visitor to a Samuel and Mary HAWKE. Reason you could not find on Ancestry is because is transcribed as TRONT. Ref is RG13 - Piece 2185 - Folio 19 - Page 8. Cannot find a Birth registration for this John and have done all John's in Launceston Registration District from 1892 to 1896. So could be that William Prout married John's Mother, after his birth. Whether that was because she was widowed or John was illegitimate I don't know. Tim Treeby DFHS 13926

Hello listers Having seen how much help you gave in recent messages I’m putting on some of my interests in the hope someone can guide me further. I am trying to find some history on behalf of a friend and here’s where I’ve got to. This all starts in Cornwall but bear with me and you’ll see where I’m going with it. I have a marriage for Beatrice Ada COLWILL (known as Ada) to a John PROUT which took place at Liskeard Register Office, Cornwall on 22 Aug 1911. The marriage certificate lists them both as 18 but in fact Ada had only had her 17th birthday the previous month, being born in 1894. John listed his father as William, deceased and John’s address at the time of marriage was Longridge, Linkinghorne which is near Launceston while Ada’s family were in Higher Larrick, Launceston. A daughter was born to them in Mar Q 1912 so the reason for marriage at such a young age was clearer. According to the COLWILLs John left the family a year or so later and I traced a link on Cornwall OPC database to John enlisting on the Canadian Expeditionary Force in 1916 having already served in 25th Dragoons and was resident at Paris, Ontario. His date of birth was listed as 31st March 1894 at Coads Green, Launceston (this is also listed as his home address at the time so may be incorrect.) I searched for any PROUTS that were born in Mar Q 1894 around the country and there’s only one that fits, John Frederick PROUT registered in Newton Abbot area. As we’ve seen Beatrice Ada only called herself Ada on her marriage certificate so could John have also missed off a name? Ada was listed as his wife on enlisting for the CEF so had he left home as the family thought, or had he just joined the forces when war was declared? I searched for a child of about 7 on the 1901 census and only found 2 John PROUTs whose births were near that time, one in Newton Abbot, Devon, the other in Middlesbrough, Yorks. The Newton Abbot John PROUT was again John Frederick whose mother Mary was a widow with a grocer shop working from home and there were 2 younger siblings, Percy born Newton Abbot and Walter born Torquay and in 1911 yet another sibling, Francis born 1899 so father was alive in 1899 it seems, unless they were born to different fathers. I’ve been unable to identify Mary on the 1891 census on Ancestry and I’ve been unable to find a death for a William PROUT who may fit as John’s father. Unknown factors at this time, did John just make up the father’s name on his marriage certificate as mother never married, or did William just leave home? Or was he older than stated? Maybe John was a middle name which he preferred to use. I’ve also looked at some John Prouts of differing ages in Cornwall, but again find it hard to pinpoint any one as the correct John. I have a note that mentions a christening of a John Prout in Wolborough area but cannot find the actual record on either Ancestry or familysearch. This would surely tell if there’s a father’s name. Could it be in Findmypast which I no longer subscribe to? Can anyone look that up for me please? Back to Beatrice Ada. If John was a soldier from 1914 and enlisted for Canada in 1916, how come Beatrice had another daughter in Sept Q 1917? Presumably John had not long been in Canada so is it likely he would have had leave so early? In 1924 she had twin daughters who were born in Greenbank House, Plymouth – aain, John was not thought to be the father and the birth certificate is blank here.. Looking on internet this sounded like a temporary home for unmarried mothers in childbirth and indeed one of the daughters was given up for adoption while the other died in childbirth at the age of 16. As at least 2 of these daughters are still surviving I am keeping their names out of it but I am interested to know, if John was not the father, and his name is not mentioned on the birth certificate, would there have been some sort of claim for support (bastardy bonds?) in 1924? Beatrice went on to marry twice more and eventually died in Newton Abbot. Thanks for reading the story, and for any advice you can give. Sorry it’s so long! Jean

Hello Joy, thank you for the message relating to "received into the Church" Baptisms. I had suspected the health of the child may be in question but really hadn't given it much thought. Thanks for clearing it up for me and others. I am forever grateful to more knowledgeable people like you who take the trouble to answer questions on the Lists etc., Diane Western Australia - but currently in England - loving it! On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Joy Langdon via <devon@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi Martin, > > You asked "Can you explain why the 1797 Plymtree baptism of Simon > Vinicomb,is annotated as having been "born 11 Sept 1797, private baptized > 14 Sept 1798"? There are several other private baptisms about that time, > and several entries that say "at house" with an associated date well before > the official baptism date. Was that usual if the newborn was thought > unlikely to survive? I have not seen that before." > > Yes, if the child looked unlikely to survive a private baptism took place > (there are instructions on the private baptism of infants in the Book of > Common Prayer). If the child survived it was taken to church and an entry > or note was made in the register "received into the Church". > > https://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-worship/worship/book-of-common-prayer/private-baptism-of-infants.aspx > > Joy > > ----Original message---- > >From : devon@rootsweb.com > Date : 19/09/2014 - 01:34 (GMTST) > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

G'day everybody As an addendum to the various emails about L A Hughes of the Canadian Army, if you know of any ANZAC soldiers who are commemorated on Devon war memorials or of any relatives who died as members of the ANZACs, you might be interested in the Australian War Museum at: http://www.awm.gov.au/people/roll-search/all/?preferred_name=&service_number=&unit=&conflict=0&op=Search&preferred_name=&service_number=&unit=&conflict=0&op=Search which is a page devoted to families finding out about men who served in WW1. Also of interest is that the AWM is interested in collecting biographical manuscripts of those who fought and died, particularly at Gallipoli, as my great-uncle did. He wasn't from Devon but I am sure that there are a number of people with Devon connections numbered amongst those who fought and died there. Regards Ray Lewis Hazelmere Western Australia On 19/09/2014 12:57 AM, Martin Beavis via wrote: > Hi Elizabeth - Can't help you with any Devon connection but I did read recently that English war memorials often included the names of casualties whose last known residence, even if rather transient, was in that parish. <snipped>

Hi, Martin says Unfortunately, there are no Cullompton Burials on Genuki later than 1773 so we cannot check for infant deaths after that date. I had a very senior moment and thought perhaps I hadn`t transcribed 1773 onward but to my relief I found I have !!!!! Very quick search shows 5th Oct 1800 buried James Vinnicombe ; Mary Vinnicombe bd 21st July 1805 ; James son of Jno Vinnicombe bd ? Sept 1808 ; Sarah dau of John Vinnicombe bd 4th Feb 1810 ; John Vinnicombe bd 17th Nov 1812 . life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maureen Selley via" <devon@rootsweb.com> To: "Martin Beavis" <beavis.history@yahoo.co.uk>; <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2014 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [DEV] JOHN VINNICOMBE b. Devon 1767. > Good morning from a still United Kingdom :-) > > Martin's incredibly detailed analysis of Richard's VINNICOMBE query , > added to what Joy, Elizabeth and other Devon-L listers have > contributed, once again illustrates what a marvellous group of people we > have on Devon-L. > > The amount of time and effort contributed to this list never ceases to > amaze me. > > I am so glad to be part of Devon's family history community. > > Thank you everyone, and thank you Martin for your 1725 Cullompton > postscript! > > Maureen > Devon FHS 4019 > > On 19/09/2014 01:34, Martin Beavis via wrote: >> Hi Richard - I drafted this yesterday and slept on it before reading your >> later posts about calling it a day, but I will go ahead and post this >> anyway <snipped> > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Martin, did you find time to eat and sleep at all yesterday ???!!!! you have given us a totally comprehensive dissertation on the Vinnicombes and spent time on my behalf on Lorne Arthur too .......unbelievably kind and thorough too........as I have written to Sandra I will hold Lorne Arthur in the wings until I find something more definitively Devon. But your last thought thast his father was a mariner echoes my thoughts of the Nova Scotia /Devon fishing trade. life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Beavis via" <devon@rootsweb.com> To: <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [DEV] LORNE ARTHUR HUGHES > Hi Elizabeth - Can't help you with any Devon connection but I did read > recently that English war memorials often included the names of casualties > whose last known residence, even if rather transient, was in that parish. > The image of his enlistment papers are at > http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=475745 > He was an unmarried draughtsman living at home in Canada when he enlisted. > And we have his photo! > http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/562411 > I wonder who submitted the photo, and what they know. > > Ancestry has some info about his family, death, burial and reburial: > > Canada, War Graves Registers (Circumstances of Casualty), 1914-1948 about > Lorne Arthur Hughes > Name: Lorne Arthur Hughes > Death Date: 6 Jul 1917 > Rank: Lance Corporal > Unit: 25th Battalion > Service number: 715764 > Cemetery: Caldron Military Cemetery > Cemetery Location: 2 Miles South West of Lens, France > Burial Place: Lens, France > * Transcription and double-sided image > * Same person but different cemetery/grave than recorded on CWGC > * Died in the trenches > > Canada, CEF Commonwealth War Graves Registers, 1914-1919 about L A Hughes > Name: L A Hughes > Death Date: 6 Jul 1917 > Unit: 25th Battalion (Nova Scotia Regiment) > Rank: Lance Corporal > Service number: 715764 > Burial Country: France, Belgium, etc. > * Transcription and double-sided image of burial/exhumation/reburial and > notification to parents > > 1901 Census of Canada about Robert Hughes [father, includes young Lorne] > Name: Robert Hughes > Marital Status: Married > Age: 36 > Birth Day & Month: 14 Feb > Birth Year: 1865 > Birthplace: NS > Nationality: Canadian > Religion: Methodist > Occupation: Carpenter Ship > Province: Nova Scotia > District: Cumberland > ... > Household Members: > Name Age > Robert Hughes 36 > Bessie Hughes 27 > Phylis Hughes 8 > Thompson Hughes 6 > Lorne Hughes 4 > Price Hughes 2 > * Image states this father Robert Hughes and mother Bessie both born in > Nova Scotia, so no immediate connection with Devon > * Cannot find family in 1911 census of Canada > * Father was a mariner, may have had seafaring links with South Devon ??? > > Regards - Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: elizabeth howard via > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 2:57 PM > To: DEVON > Subject: [DEV] LORNE ARTHUR HUGHES > > Hi, I am compiling biographies of all the WW1 soldiers > who are on the Budleigh Salterton War Memorial and as usual have found > several very unlikely Saltertonians. > Does anyone in Canada have access to anything which could > give me the background to Lorne Arthur Hughes, he is a Lce Corp 25th Bttn > Canadian Inf son of Robert and Bessie of Nova Scotia . He > died aged 19 in July 1917 and is commemorated in Loos British Cemetary . > Can anyone find a link with Devon ? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Martin, You asked "Can you explain why the 1797 Plymtree baptism of Simon Vinicomb,is annotated as having been "born 11 Sept 1797, private baptized 14 Sept 1798"? There are several other private baptisms about that time, and several entries that say "at house" with an associated date well before the official baptism date. Was that usual if the newborn was thought unlikely to survive? I have not seen that before." Yes, if the child looked unlikely to survive a private baptism took place (there are instructions on the private baptism of infants in the Book of Common Prayer). If the child survived it was taken to church and an entry or note was made in the register "received into the Church". https://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-worship/worship/book-of-common-prayer/private-baptism-of-infants.aspx Joy ----Original message---- >From : devon@rootsweb.com Date : 19/09/2014 - 01:34 (GMTST)

http://www.devonheritage.org/WarMemorials.htm Edna - sunny Ottawa

Good morning from a still United Kingdom :-) Martin's incredibly detailed analysis of Richard's VINNICOMBE query , added to what Joy, Elizabeth and other Devon-L listers have contributed, once again illustrates what a marvellous group of people we have on Devon-L. The amount of time and effort contributed to this list never ceases to amaze me. I am so glad to be part of Devon's family history community. Thank you everyone, and thank you Martin for your 1725 Cullompton postscript! Maureen Devon FHS 4019 On 19/09/2014 01:34, Martin Beavis via wrote: > Hi Richard - I drafted this yesterday and slept on it before reading your > later posts about calling it a day, but I will go ahead and post this > anyway <snipped> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Hi Richard - I drafted this yesterday and slept on it before reading your later posts about calling it a day, but I will go ahead and post this anyway - if not for your edification or confusion then for the dubious benefit of anyone else who comes to this list looking for that family, but I do join others in urging you to stay with it a bit longer. It will take you a bit longer to read all of this anyway. As I understand your second message, your 2xgtgf was a Simon Vinnicombe whom you believe to be the son of John Vinecombe and Elizabeth Veysey, and who had a brother Robert with uncertain marriage(s) albeit from whom you are not descended, such that your principal quest remained to identify the birth and parentage of John. Joy and Elizabeth seem to be on the right track, but let me pose a "multi-Boolean" question. How confident are you about being descended from the young John Vinicombe who married Elisabeth Veysey in 1791 AND from the old John Vinnicombe in the 1841 census AND that they are one and the same person AND that your 2xgtgf Simon is his/their son? In the absence of any substantive proof, there is circumstantial evidence that they may not be the same person, but while Simon may be the son of the Vinnecombe-Veysey marriage, John and Robert may be the sons of a different old John of the 1841 census. Let's begin with that 1841 Plymtree census, for which the enumerator made the (convenient?) mistake of entering stated adult ages instead of rounding down to the nearest multiple of 5, albeit they may not be accurate. That census (Vinncomb on Ancestry, Vinnicombe on FMP, also on GENUKI Plymtree and FreeCEN) shows three Vinnicombe households: (1) Simon Vinnicombe 44 Ag Lab (implied born 1796/97), wife Sarah 34 (1806/07), and three children (2) John Vinnicombe 45 Ag Lab (1795/96), wife Lydia 42 (1798/99), and 3 children, and John 74 (1766/67), and Robert 42 (1798/99) (3) William Vinnicombe 35 (1805/06), wife Mary 30 (1810/11), and 3 children Here 1796/97 means born between June 1796 and May 1797 because the 1841 census was on 6 June. By the 1851 census lists Simon (husband of Sarah) as 55 born in Plymtree, with children born Plymtree, Bradninch and Cullompton, and John Vinacomb as 53 born Cullompton, with children born Plymtree, while old John is dead and Robert has left and married (about whom more later). Old John is confirmed as father of young John by the identification of his daughter-in-law, Lydia, as informant on his death certificate. So we might infer that the 1841 census shows three brothers and their father, or two possibly brothers, one cousin and one father/uncle - but see later. Unless I am missing something crucial, this census is the only record that any John was born in 1766/67 whereas we have no independent record of age or date of birth of the John who married Elisabeth Veysey. Edgar Hay's transcription of the Plymtree Parish Registers is online at http://ukga.org/england/Devon/towns/p/Plymtree/index.html There is no index but the contents list is on page v, from which you can navigate within this 5-volume book. As you say, there is no record of the ca 1767 birth of any John Vinnicombe in Plymtree (see page 135) but a quick scroll through finds some relevant records (and I may have missed some): Vinicombe, John, husbandman, and Elisabeth Veysey [Vesey], married 25 Apr. 1791 (page 167) Possible bride: Voysay, Elizabeth, d of Robert & Mary bapt. Plymtree 22 Dec 1771 (on page 136) Vinicombe, Elizabeth, of Upper Weaver [Plymtree], age 63, buried 8 Feb 1835 (page 188) = wife of John ? - not annotated as a widow - would we expect that if she were ? I find no Vinnicombe births in Plymtree between 1748 and 1791, until Vinicomb, James, s. of John & Elizabeth, bapt. 30 Oct 1791 (page 142) - probably the son of John Vinnicombe and elizabeth Veysey, despite evidently being conceived before that April 1971 marriage. Vinicombe, James, age 36, buried 31 Aug 1828 (page 186) - so born ca 1792 = the eldest son who evidently remained, and died, in Plymtree ? Vinicomb, Simon, s. of John and Elizabeth, born 11 Sept 1797, private baptized 14 Sept 1797, baptised 7 Jan 1798. (page 144) - is this the Simon Vinicomb in the 1841 Plymtree census ? Vinicombe, Amos, s. of John & Elizabeth, Bapt. 21 Aug 1808 (page 147) Vinicombe, Betty, d. of John & Betty [Elizabeth?], bapt. 20 Jan 1811 (page 148) Vinicombe, Betty, of Collumpton, age 4, buried 2 Apr 1815 (page 184) Vinnicombe, Lawrence, s. of John & Elizabeth, Bapt. 12 Aug 1818 (page 172) Vinnicombe, Lawrence, of Collumpton, age 3, buried 27 Jan 1822 (page 185) In the absence of any Vinnicombe baptisms prior to the 1791 Vinnicombe-Vesey marriage, it is very unlikely that John Vinnicombe was born in Plymtree. At the time of that marriage, John was a husbandman, meaning a free tenant farmer or small landowner. It is persuasive to suppose this was all one family but note the big gap in baptisms between 1797 and 1808, which might suggest two families with parents called John and Elizabeth, or that the family might have moved around a bit, including a period in the nearby town of Cullompton, but returned to her home village of Plymtree for some of their baptisms and burials. Note also that Elizabeth Voysey would have been about 20 if married in 1791 and 47 if giving birth in 1818. There are no Plymtree baptisms matching the John and Robert in the 1841 census. Nor do I find any burial for any father John Vinicombe, but at least one such person must have died 1818 or later. Note also the the Plymtree baptisms of children of the Rector Daniel Veysie in 1799 and 1801, 1806 and 1807. Might Elizabeth Voysey have had a family connection to the Rector which prompted the baptism of her children by him? FMP has DFHS transcriptions of (rather too many?) Vinnicombe marriages in the Cullompton area: Simon Vinnicomb & Grace Marley 10 Aug 1755 Cullompton Amos Vinnicomb & Mary Vinnicomb 5 Feb 1759 Cullompton - cousins? John Vinnicombe & Elizabeth Western 23 Apr 1763 Butterleigh FamilySearch has no less than three Butterleigh baptisms of John Vinnicombe, all sons of John and Elizabeth in 1765 (as suggested by Joy), 1773, and 1776, while FMP has the Butterleigh burial of one John Vinnicombe on 22 Jan 1766, which probably eliminates #1 while the baptism of #3 suggests the prior death of #2, and #3 would have been rather too young if married in 1791 - unless there were two couples called John and Elizabeth associated with Butterleigh. Continuing ... James Vinnicombe & Elizabeth Facey 6 Aug 1759 Cullompton James Vinnicomb & Mary Hayward 24 Oct 1759 Cullompton A very large number of indiscriminately copied Ancestry trees have this James and Mary as unsourced parents of the John Vinnicombe who married Elizabeth Veysey, for which I found neither definitive nor circumstantial evidence. Continuing ... James Vinicombe & Mary Snow 22 Jan 1775 Cullompton Simon Vinicomb & Elizabeth Harden 3 Nov 1776 Bradninch John Vinnicombe & Amey Poke 7 Jun 1795 Cullompton William Vinnicombe & Betty Voysey 30 Sep 1795 Bradninch William Vinnicombe & Susan Lewis 4 Jul 1799 Bradninch Turning to the Cullompton PRs on Genuki (mostly transcribed by Elizabeth Howard, no less) we find too many Vinnicombe baptisms to list, including 27th Aug 1755, John son of Simon Vinicomb - this possibility I have not explored - he may be a contender for something. 1st Jan 1760, James son of James Vinicomb 1st Jan 1760, James son of James Vinicomb 16th Aug 1767, James[?] son of James Vinicomb Regarding Joy's tentative identification of this "James [?]", the associated transcription of burials has one burial of James, son of James Vinicomb, on 6 Jan 1762. A complication arises with the later burial of [Blank fields] James Vinicomb on 24 April 1763, where blank fields are said to indicate information missing from the PR, which seems to imply that the deceased is the named person, not the son or daughter of the named person, so I suspect that 1763 burial is a quite different James, possibly of an earlier (grandfather?) generation. There is also the later death of James Vinicomb on 20 Mar 1772, who is not listed as the son of anyone and may therefore be the father, or possibly the son baptised in 1764. I think that scenario would indeed allow for the survival of the "James [?]" who was really a John, as suggested by Joy. If true, this "James [?]" would be the old John of 1841 but not necessarily the husband of Elizabeth Veysey, for whom we have no independent record of age or date of birth. Elizabeth wrote "If there is NO other candidate, then James Vinnicombe of Butterleigh is John`s father. Process of elimination." But I'm not sure if she meant John of Butterleigh, which I doubt, or James of Cullompton, which I support as a last resort. Or have I missed something? Two other interesting Cullompton baptisms are: (1) 24th Dec 1797, John son of John Vinnicombe born 9th (2) 30th Nov 1800, Robart son of John Vinnicombe, born 30th Oct Are these John and Robart [sic], sons of John, the same John and Robert in the 1841 Plymtree census? Their baptismal dates are about right for that, and might also suggest they were sons of the 1795 John Vinnicombe-Amey Poke marriage, and that it was this John who appears in the 1841 census and dies later that year. Note, however, the very close birth dates of that John (9 Dec 1797) and of the previously listed Vinicomb, Simon, s. of John and Elizabeth, born 11 Sept 1797, private baptized 14 Sept 1797, baptised Plymtree 7 Jan 1798 such that they cannot be sons of the same John. So if they are the same Simon and John as in the censuses of 1841 and 1951 then they cannot be brothers unless their ages in those censuses are unreliable. Unfortunately, there are no Cullompton Burials on Genuki later than 1773 so we cannot check for infant deaths after that date. A lot of Vinnicombe and Veysie names appear in the Genuki index to the Book of Plymtree http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Plymtree/PlymtreeBook.html Now, turning to your subsidiary query, the Robert Vinnicombe, age 42 in the 1841 Plymtree census, implying birth ca 1798/99, is probably the Robert Vinnicombe, Ag Lab, married to Mary [Coles] in the Cullompton censuses of 1851 (age 45, which must be wrong), 1861 (age 60) and 1871 (age 71), indicating birth between 1799 and 1806, in both Plymtree and Cullompton. Mary's ages are more consistent but her birth place varies from Butterleigh to Bickleigh to Silverton! This Robert, aged 71 in 1871, cannot be the same Robert Vinnicombe/Vinnscombe/Vannote (as transcribed on Ancestry) married to Harriet [Johnson] in the censuses of 1871 (age 25) through 1911, born ca 1845/46, railway worker, giving his place of birth as both Cullompton and Plymtree, but unambiguously the same family, initially living in Halberton, then in Cullompton. So the public trees alleging Robert's second (and implicitly bigamous) marriage are the sort of mathematical nonsense with which Terry takes issue. FAO Anyone: Can you explain why the 1797 Plymtree baptism of Simon Vinicomb,is annotated as having been "born 11 Sept 1797, private baptized 14 Sept 1798"? There are several other private baptisms about that time, and several entries that say "at house" with an associated date well before the official baptism date. Was that usual if the newborn was thought unlikely to survive? I have not seen that before. FAO Brian: Genuki Plymtree links to Edgar Hay's PRs transcription under Church Records http://ukga.org/england/Devon/towns/p/Plymtree/index.html but it's worth mentioning that the Preface on pages vii-xvi provides a comprehensive history of the village and the church. I particularly like his observations on page xii about the changes in village life from 1890 to 1940. That is doing my head in, so I too am calling it a day - or should that be a night? But finally, on a lighter note and lowering the tone of this august list, the transcription of Cullompton baptisms includes a longer account of the following summary: "On Wednesday the Eighth of December Anno Dom. 1725, there ... was likely to be a very dreadfull fire in the clock chamber of the tower of this towne, ... had it not been discovered ... the Tower, Church and whole Town would in all probability have been burnt down, but, God be thanked, it was happily discovered and extinguished. ... It was occassioned by the carelessness of a carpenter and locksmith leaving fire unextinguished in an iron pan, covered with a board some time the same day, tho' they tho't it had been clean extinguished, having Piss'd in the fire to extinguish it." And that is why, God be thanked, we still have Cullompton PRs going back to 1601. Goodnight from Martin

Hi Elizabeth - Can't help you with any Devon connection but I did read recently that English war memorials often included the names of casualties whose last known residence, even if rather transient, was in that parish. The image of his enlistment papers are at http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=475745 He was an unmarried draughtsman living at home in Canada when he enlisted. And we have his photo! http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/562411 I wonder who submitted the photo, and what they know. Ancestry has some info about his family, death, burial and reburial: Canada, War Graves Registers (Circumstances of Casualty), 1914-1948 about Lorne Arthur Hughes Name: Lorne Arthur Hughes Death Date: 6 Jul 1917 Rank: Lance Corporal Unit: 25th Battalion Service number: 715764 Cemetery: Caldron Military Cemetery Cemetery Location: 2 Miles South West of Lens, France Burial Place: Lens, France * Transcription and double-sided image * Same person but different cemetery/grave than recorded on CWGC * Died in the trenches Canada, CEF Commonwealth War Graves Registers, 1914-1919 about L A Hughes Name: L A Hughes Death Date: 6 Jul 1917 Unit: 25th Battalion (Nova Scotia Regiment) Rank: Lance Corporal Service number: 715764 Burial Country: France, Belgium, etc. * Transcription and double-sided image of burial/exhumation/reburial and notification to parents 1901 Census of Canada about Robert Hughes [father, includes young Lorne] Name: Robert Hughes Marital Status: Married Age: 36 Birth Day & Month: 14 Feb Birth Year: 1865 Birthplace: NS Nationality: Canadian Religion: Methodist Occupation: Carpenter Ship Province: Nova Scotia District: Cumberland ... Household Members: Name Age Robert Hughes 36 Bessie Hughes 27 Phylis Hughes 8 Thompson Hughes 6 Lorne Hughes 4 Price Hughes 2 * Image states this father Robert Hughes and mother Bessie both born in Nova Scotia, so no immediate connection with Devon * Cannot find family in 1911 census of Canada * Father was a mariner, may have had seafaring links with South Devon ??? Regards - Martin -----Original Message----- From: elizabeth howard via Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 2:57 PM To: DEVON Subject: [DEV] LORNE ARTHUR HUGHES Hi, I am compiling biographies of all the WW1 soldiers who are on the Budleigh Salterton War Memorial and as usual have found several very unlikely Saltertonians. Does anyone in Canada have access to anything which could give me the background to Lorne Arthur Hughes, he is a Lce Corp 25th Bttn Canadian Inf son of Robert and Bessie of Nova Scotia . He died aged 19 in July 1917 and is commemorated in Loos British Cemetary . Can anyone find a link with Devon ? --------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi again, more help needed. This P Bright is not on the Devon Heritage site , as he is very difficult to find, anyone with any Bright ancestors , in or around Salterton Ditto W J Dunn on the memorial but not identified by D Heritage . Any offers on either man ? life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=///

Hi and many thanks to all who responded. Lorne Arthur is the one chosen by Richard Brine of the Devon Heritage , but he gives no Devon connection, he simply repeats what is on the CWGC site. On the 1901 census , it says that this list of people are Canadian which appears to be crossed out , and English written instead.... And the URL link to the earlier Canadian census says , You are not authorised to view this set.......!!!! life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=///