Tessa, There seems to be a number of hits on Google for - Hambling Gunsmith -, including yours. These include a reference to a factory and a stock up for sale December 2014. http://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=MDV51276&r esourceID=104 http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=S0115+++5 022+&refno=+++80894&saletype= http://mooreallen.bidmaster.co.uk/bidcat/detail.asp?SaleRef=1103&LotRef=446 http://whoasmiliteria.azurewebsites.net/v4-percussion-shotgun The newspaper archive may have advertising and articles on the product. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Teresa Goatham via Sent: 05 April 2015 22:51 To: DEVON@rootsweb.com; eng-dev-southhams@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] HAMBLINGs firearms I'm looking to discover if anyone on the list knows of any firearms or pictures of such made by the HAMBLING gunsmith family (mainly of Blackawton, Kingsbridge and Totnes). At least 7 HAMBLINGs were gunsmiths, together probably covering almost the whole C19th and possibly late C18th. James H (1762-1837), son Wm Bartlett H (1787-1864) and WBHs son Henry H (1823-1892) lived in Blackawton. The others were: WBHs son Hiram H (1822-1897) - based mostly in Kingsbridge, WBHs son Reuben H (1833-1892) - left Devon, at different times lived in Sussex, London, Birmingham / Wolverhampton, Manchester, Norfolk, Buckinghamshire and Kent. WBHs son Wm Baker H (1822-1897) - moved to Totnes, and his son Charles Baker H (1844-1867), moved from Totnes to Birmingham. I've been meaning to look into this for years, and someone in Colorado has acquired a gun by a Hambling of Totnes (which I'm certain must be one of the above 2) and would like to compare it with others by the family - if there are any. thanks in anticipation, Teresa PS I know there must by now be many descendants of Wm Bartlett HAMBLING, I'm in touch with a few (who I'll also be asking the above) but if you are also related to him and interested in this topic let me know I'll tell you when I've added a photo of the Colorado gun etc. to my family history website. ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello, I have been trying for some time to find the parents & birth of Richard Full. He married Susanna Crossing in 1700 at Woodland & was the earliest of my Full ancestors I could find. In spite of help from listers, the Devon Family history Society & a professional researcher, no records could be found. One possibility raised was that his parents were Thomas & Joan Full, on the grounds Richard named two of his children Thomas & Joane. No details of these people have been found. I am about to compile some family stories, so I thought I would try just once more. I would be grateful for any help &,failing a miraculous breakthrough, It would help me if someone could explain the range of reasons his record is not available. Thank you Norman Full Australia
Hi Norman I have a Joan Full baptised at Dittisham in 1656. She married Jeffery Scobell. Any use? I don't know where Woodland is.. But it isn't a Parish near Dittisham as far as I know so maybe no help to you. Regards Jane Lucas > On 6 Apr 2015, at 07:38, norman full via <devon@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > Hello, > > I have been trying for some time to find the parents & birth of Richard > Full. He married Susanna Crossing in 1700 at Woodland & was the earliest of > my Full ancestors I could find. In spite of help from listers, the Devon > Family history Society & a professional researcher, no records could be > found. One possibility raised was that his parents were Thomas & Joan Full, > on the grounds Richard named two of his children Thomas & Joane. No details > of these people have been found. > > I am about to compile some family stories, so I thought I would try just > once more. I would be grateful for any help &,failing a miraculous > breakthrough, It would help me if someone could explain the range of reasons > his record is not available. > > Thank you > > Norman Full Australia > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello Norman Plenty of Reasons:- He wasn't baptised The record hasn't survived The record has been mis-transcribed so he doesn't show up in the index you are consulting The surname is wrong - He could be Fall/Fell etc. Or it could be totally wrong i.e. he may have been born before his parents' marriage so baptised with his mother's maiden name You may not be searching across a wide enough date range - he could have been as young as 14 on marriage - if you have his burial that will give you an idea of the earliest possible date He may have been baptised a long way from where you expect, so you are not searching a wide enough geographical area. The forename is wrong (less likely at this date) e.g. Thomas Richard becomes Richard He was born in what is know as the 'Commonwealth Gap' 1645-1660 when baptisms were not supposed to be recorded (although a some were) Sorry if this sounds a bit depressing! Janet Few -----Original Message----- From: norman full via Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 7:38 AM To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Richard Full, parents &birth Hello, I have been trying for some time to find the parents & birth of Richard Full. He married Susanna Crossing in 1700 at Woodland & was the earliest of my Full ancestors I could find. In spite of help from listers, the Devon Family history Society & a professional researcher, no records could be found. One possibility raised was that his parents were Thomas & Joan Full, on the grounds Richard named two of his children Thomas & Joane. No details of these people have been found. I am about to compile some family stories, so I thought I would try just once more. I would be grateful for any help &,failing a miraculous breakthrough, It would help me if someone could explain the range of reasons his record is not available. Thank you Norman Full Australia ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I'm looking to discover if anyone on the list knows of any firearms or pictures of such made by the HAMBLING gunsmith family (mainly of Blackawton, Kingsbridge and Totnes). At least 7 HAMBLINGs were gunsmiths, together probably covering almost the whole C19th and possibly late C18th. James H (1762-1837), son Wm Bartlett H (1787-1864) and WBHs son Henry H (1823-1892) lived in Blackawton. The others were: WBHs son Hiram H (1822-1897) - based mostly in Kingsbridge, WBHs son Reuben H (1833-1892) - left Devon, at different times lived in Sussex, London, Birmingham / Wolverhampton, Manchester, Norfolk, Buckinghamshire and Kent. WBHs son Wm Baker H (1822-1897) - moved to Totnes, and his son Charles Baker H (1844-1867), moved from Totnes to Birmingham. I've been meaning to look into this for years, and someone in Colorado has acquired a gun by a Hambling of Totnes (which I'm certain must be one of the above 2) and would like to compare it with others by the family - if there are any. thanks in anticipation, Teresa PS I know there must by now be many descendants of Wm Bartlett HAMBLING, I'm in touch with a few (who I'll also be asking the above) but if you are also related to him and interested in this topic let me know I'll tell you when I've added a photo of the Colorado gun etc. to my family history website.
Hi Daniel: Thanks for spotting this. I’ve removed the “of Exeter”, ready for the next upload to my server. Cheers Brian On 1 Apr 2015, at 18:22, Daniel Morgan via <devon@rootsweb.com> wrote: > This item > > • Devon - History: An essay concerning the cause of the endemial colic > in Devonshire (1814) - index > > caught my eye, because my gggg-grandfather was involved in the > research that led to the book. Indeed, he was the Dr. Saunders > mentioned on page 40. For those who don't know, this was an early > example of epidemiology, which eventually led to the understanding > that "Devonshire colic" was lead poisoning resulting from the use of > lead plates in cider presses. > > The new book index on Genuki is great, but I'm afraid it errs in > indexing my ancestor as "Dr. Saunders of Exeter". That's a misreading > of the text. Some cider from Exeter was brought back to London, and > analyzed there with the help of Dr. Saunders, but Dr. Saunders was not > himself from Exeter. -- School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 208 7923 FAX = +44 191 208 8232 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/brian.randell
This item • Devon - History: An essay concerning the cause of the endemial colic in Devonshire (1814) - index caught my eye, because my gggg-grandfather was involved in the research that led to the book. Indeed, he was the Dr. Saunders mentioned on page 40. For those who don't know, this was an early example of epidemiology, which eventually led to the understanding that "Devonshire colic" was lead poisoning resulting from the use of lead plates in cider presses. The new book index on Genuki is great, but I'm afraid it errs in indexing my ancestor as "Dr. Saunders of Exeter". That's a misreading of the text. Some cider from Exeter was brought back to London, and analyzed there with the help of Dr. Saunders, but Dr. Saunders was not himself from Exeter.
Hi: Mar 2015 No. of pages added/amended: 60 Major additions: • Devon - Court Records: Inquests Taken into Suspicious or Unexplained Deaths for 1889-1893 - transcript • Devon - Description and Travel: Black’s Guide to Devonshire (1898) - index • Devon - Description and Travel: My Devonshire Book: The Land of Junket and Cream (1907) - index • Devon - Description and Travel: Tourist's guide to South Devon (1883) - index • Devon - Heraldry: Devonshire - in The noble and gentlemen of England (1859) - index • Devon - History: Devonshire - Sketches and Studies, Chap. 7 (1874) - index • Devon - History: An essay concerning the cause of the endemial colic in Devonshire (1814) - index • Devon - History: North Devon Pottery and its Export to America in the 17th century (1960) - index • Barnstaple: Will of John Hewish (1851) - transcript • Bideford: Will of Elizabeth Edwards, Widow (1833) - transcript • Cheriton Fitzpaine: Will of Mary Hewish (1828) - transcript • Cullompton - Dreadful Fire at Cullompton (1839) - article • Cullompton - Finding Cullompton's History (1989) - article • Dean Prior - Robert Herrick and his Vicarage (1874) - index • Exeter - Exeter (1887) - index • Exeter, St Leonards - History of the suburban parish of St. Leonards, Exeter (1873) - index • Fremington: Census (1821) - transcript • Morchard Bishop: Will of Richard Gibbings (1846) - transcript • Plympton St Mary - Sir Joshua Reynolds (1878) - index Cheers Brian Randell -- School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 208 7923 FAX = +44 191 208 8232 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/brian.randell
On 29 Mar 2015 at 14:24, paul.hockie via wrote: > After a spin round the Internet and the resurrection of a few little used grey > cells, I found that the terms patrician and pleb(eian) were first used in > public schools to differentiate between boys with aristocratic backgrounds > from those of a less elevated status. Actually they were first used in ancient Rome, and were probably picked up by pupils at public schools from their compulsort study of Latin and ancient Latin authors. They may have been used in Britain in Roman times, though I rather doubt it, and I doubt even more that they were used after the end of Roman occupation in AD 410 -- but see here for qualifications: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain The Anglo-Saxons broought their own class terms, and the Normans brought yet others. "Plebs" remained schoolboy slang. Even Orwell called them "proles", if I recall correctly. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525
This thread should end- we are straying a long way from Devon. Terry list admin team On 29/03/2015 14:24, paul.hockie via wrote: > > After a spin round the Internet and the resurrection of a few little used grey cells, I found that the terms patrician and pleb(eian) were first used in public schools to differentiate between boys with aristocratic backgrounds from those of a less elevated status. This carried on through university and may have been reflected in the fees. At that time all students were required to live in rooms within the college with Patricians renting a suite of rooms plus space for a manservant and the plebs perhaps sharing rooms. Food , drink and other extras would also reflect this in the fees. > Gent/Esquire was the next "rank" below the aristocracy, the lowest rank of whom was a knight/baronet and beneath them were tradesmen and then labourers etc. The aristocracy were typically landed and employed agents to run their affairs, the gentry included non-aristocratic military officers and clergy as well as gentlemen farmers i.e. farmers who were a little hands-on but still employed managers.Gent and and Esquire are roughly interchangeable but a quick scan indicates Esquire was used more in the 17th/18th century with Gent becoming more used in the 19th century until the rise of the middle classes. A quick tour of an old graveyard will verify this. Esquire dates back to days of old when knights were bold and each of them had a squire as an assistant.Armigerous always applied to the aristocracy as arm were granted at the time of ennoblement (this still happens) but some gentlemen could be entitled to use a family coat-of-arms. This became popular > with the Victorians when there was a burst amongst the new industrialists to prove there aristocratic origins. At its peak genealogies were produced showing descent from Adam and Eve > > These are general guidelines and no doubt exceptions can be found, particularly in the industrial revolution, when the decline of the aristocratic landowners was matched by the rise of the nouveauricheindustrialists and tradesmen putting heirs and graces and the estate was saved by the marriage of the heir to an American heiress - just like Downton. > > Cheers > > Paul > > ________________________________ > From: ANGELA MARKS via <devon@rootsweb.com> > To: devon@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2015, 11:22 > Subject: [DEV] Plebs and gents > > > Not sure if this is the right list, but > there are such knowledgeable people here, someone’s sure to have the right > answer! > Many of us have Devon ancestors who went to > Oxford University and can find out about them in Oxford Alumni, where they are > described as pleb. or gent. - pleb: plebeian, of the common people; gent. gentleman: > a more tricky definition. Gentleman/armiger is often interchangeable, meaning > one who has the right to use a coat of arms (although the College of Arms tell > me this was not always the case, I have ‘gents’ in my family tree who did not > have a formal grant of arms) I’ve also seen arm. fil. – son of an armiger. > My question: does anyone know what criteria > Oxford University used to decide whether an alumnus was a pleb or a gent? > Angela in Exmouth > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
After a spin round the Internet and the resurrection of a few little used grey cells, I found that the terms patrician and pleb(eian) were first used in public schools to differentiate between boys with aristocratic backgrounds from those of a less elevated status. This carried on through university and may have been reflected in the fees. At that time all students were required to live in rooms within the college with Patricians renting a suite of rooms plus space for a manservant and the plebs perhaps sharing rooms. Food , drink and other extras would also reflect this in the fees. Gent/Esquire was the next "rank" below the aristocracy, the lowest rank of whom was a knight/baronet and beneath them were tradesmen and then labourers etc. The aristocracy were typically landed and employed agents to run their affairs, the gentry included non-aristocratic military officers and clergy as well as gentlemen farmers i.e. farmers who were a little hands-on but still employed managers.Gent and and Esquire are roughly interchangeable but a quick scan indicates Esquire was used more in the 17th/18th century with Gent becoming more used in the 19th century until the rise of the middle classes. A quick tour of an old graveyard will verify this. Esquire dates back to days of old when knights were bold and each of them had a squire as an assistant.Armigerous always applied to the aristocracy as arm were granted at the time of ennoblement (this still happens) but some gentlemen could be entitled to use a family coat-of-arms. This became popular with the Victorians when there was a burst amongst the new industrialists to prove there aristocratic origins. At its peak genealogies were produced showing descent from Adam and Eve These are general guidelines and no doubt exceptions can be found, particularly in the industrial revolution, when the decline of the aristocratic landowners was matched by the rise of the nouveauricheindustrialists and tradesmen putting heirs and graces and the estate was saved by the marriage of the heir to an American heiress - just like Downton. Cheers Paul ________________________________ From: ANGELA MARKS via <devon@rootsweb.com> To: devon@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2015, 11:22 Subject: [DEV] Plebs and gents Not sure if this is the right list, but there are such knowledgeable people here, someone’s sure to have the right answer! Many of us have Devon ancestors who went to Oxford University and can find out about them in Oxford Alumni, where they are described as pleb. or gent. - pleb: plebeian, of the common people; gent. gentleman: a more tricky definition. Gentleman/armiger is often interchangeable, meaning one who has the right to use a coat of arms (although the College of Arms tell me this was not always the case, I have ‘gents’ in my family tree who did not have a formal grant of arms) I’ve also seen arm. fil. – son of an armiger. My question: does anyone know what criteria Oxford University used to decide whether an alumnus was a pleb or a gent? Angela in Exmouth ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
There is a school of thought that all graduates of Oxford and Cambridge may use the suffix "Esquire" after their name. Is there any evidence for this? David Henwood ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANGELA MARKS via" <devon@rootsweb.com> To: "Challice" <challice@bluebottle.com>; <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [DEV] Plebs & Gents > Hi Paul > > Thanks for that - there were also servitors, which I gather was an even > lower 'grade' than a bateller. A thought occurs to me -this must have been > the origin of the Army term batman for an officer's servant, short for > bateller man. > > Since I sent the post, I've come to the conclusion that a lot depended on > how much land the student's father owned (and consequently how much they > could afford in fees) - a pleb was the son of a yeoman, (some of whom > were actually quite wealthy) a gent the son of a larger landowner, with > tenants of his own. The rank of 'gentleman' carried with it the title > Esquire written after the name, although I have an example of a several x > great grandfather buried at Widworthy as Mr William Hoskins, and he was a > yeoman, although he owned property in Colyton besides his farm, and (over > in Dorset) a marriage register entry for Master Gifford and Madam Hoskins, > she was later buried as Madam Gifford (her father, however was one of the > 'gents' in the Alumni Oxonienses). > Angela in Exmouth > > > ----Original message---- >>From : devon@rootsweb.com > Date : 29/03/2015 - 10:38 (GMTDT) > To : devon@rootsweb.com > Subject : [DEV] Plebs & Gents > > Although I can't answer the question regarding the criteria used to > differentiate between > pleb & gent, I can confirm I had two relatives, uncle & nephew & both > called Roger > CHALLICE, who became clergy via Oxford University in 1745/6 & 1766 > respectively. Both were > described as 'plebs' in the Alumni Oxonienses. They were both sons of > yeomen farmers from > Lapford. I contacted the university archivist and they confirmed that the > older Roger was > admitted to Balliol as a Batteller student. Researching further I found a > Batteller, > (known as a Sizer at Cambridge) was a student of modest means who paid a > reduced amount > for his food, accommodation & education, in exchange for waiting on his > fellow students at > table, and providing other services. Not so different from students these > days taking > evening & weekend jobs to make ends meet. > As we have seen from the UK press over the last few months, you can't get > away with > calling anyone a pleb these days! > Paul Challice > Daventry UK > > > Many of us have Devon ancestors who went to Oxford University and can find > out about them > in Oxford Alumni, where they are described as pleb. or gent. - pleb: > plebeian, of the > common people; gent. gentleman: > a more tricky definition. Gentleman/armiger is often interchangeable, > meaning one who has > the right to use a coat of arms (although the College of Arms tell me this > was not always > the case, I have ?gents? in my family tree who did not have a formal grant > of arms) I?ve > also seen arm. fil. ? son of an armiger. > My question: does anyone know what criteria Oxford University used to > decide whether an > alumnus was a pleb or a gent? > Angela in Exmouth > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >
Hi Paul Thanks for that - there were also servitors, which I gather was an even lower 'grade' than a bateller. A thought occurs to me -this must have been the origin of the Army term batman for an officer's servant, short for bateller man. Since I sent the post, I've come to the conclusion that a lot depended on how much land the student's father owned (and consequently how much they could afford in fees) - a pleb was the son of a yeoman, (some of whom were actually quite wealthy) a gent the son of a larger landowner, with tenants of his own. The rank of 'gentleman' carried with it the title Esquire written after the name, although I have an example of a several x great grandfather buried at Widworthy as Mr William Hoskins, and he was a yeoman, although he owned property in Colyton besides his farm, and (over in Dorset) a marriage register entry for Master Gifford and Madam Hoskins, she was later buried as Madam Gifford (her father, however was one of the 'gents' in the Alumni Oxonienses). Angela in Exmouth ----Original message---- >From : devon@rootsweb.com Date : 29/03/2015 - 10:38 (GMTDT) To : devon@rootsweb.com Subject : [DEV] Plebs & Gents Although I can't answer the question regarding the criteria used to differentiate between pleb & gent, I can confirm I had two relatives, uncle & nephew & both called Roger CHALLICE, who became clergy via Oxford University in 1745/6 & 1766 respectively. Both were described as 'plebs' in the Alumni Oxonienses. They were both sons of yeomen farmers from Lapford. I contacted the university archivist and they confirmed that the older Roger was admitted to Balliol as a Batteller student. Researching further I found a Batteller, (known as a Sizer at Cambridge) was a student of modest means who paid a reduced amount for his food, accommodation & education, in exchange for waiting on his fellow students at table, and providing other services. Not so different from students these days taking evening & weekend jobs to make ends meet. As we have seen from the UK press over the last few months, you can't get away with calling anyone a pleb these days! Paul Challice Daventry UK Many of us have Devon ancestors who went to Oxford University and can find out about them in Oxford Alumni, where they are described as pleb. or gent. - pleb: plebeian, of the common people; gent. gentleman: a more tricky definition. Gentleman/armiger is often interchangeable, meaning one who has the right to use a coat of arms (although the College of Arms tell me this was not always the case, I have ?gents? in my family tree who did not have a formal grant of arms) I?ve also seen arm. fil. ? son of an armiger. My question: does anyone know what criteria Oxford University used to decide whether an alumnus was a pleb or a gent? Angela in Exmouth --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Although I can't answer the question regarding the criteria used to differentiate between pleb & gent, I can confirm I had two relatives, uncle & nephew & both called Roger CHALLICE, who became clergy via Oxford University in 1745/6 & 1766 respectively. Both were described as 'plebs' in the Alumni Oxonienses. They were both sons of yeomen farmers from Lapford. I contacted the university archivist and they confirmed that the older Roger was admitted to Balliol as a Batteller student. Researching further I found a Batteller, (known as a Sizer at Cambridge) was a student of modest means who paid a reduced amount for his food, accommodation & education, in exchange for waiting on his fellow students at table, and providing other services. Not so different from students these days taking evening & weekend jobs to make ends meet. As we have seen from the UK press over the last few months, you can't get away with calling anyone a pleb these days! Paul Challice Daventry UK Many of us have Devon ancestors who went to Oxford University and can find out about them in Oxford Alumni, where they are described as pleb. or gent. - pleb: plebeian, of the common people; gent. gentleman: a more tricky definition. Gentleman/armiger is often interchangeable, meaning one who has the right to use a coat of arms (although the College of Arms tell me this was not always the case, I have ?gents? in my family tree who did not have a formal grant of arms) I?ve also seen arm. fil. ? son of an armiger. My question: does anyone know what criteria Oxford University used to decide whether an alumnus was a pleb or a gent? Angela in Exmouth --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com
Thanks for those sites, very interesting. Even today, money means something.... Will send a copy to my "rich" friends. Cheers, Edna - sunny Ottawa -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Shepheard via Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 8:40 AM To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Plebs & Gents I found a division of hierarchy, expressed with various honorifics, in Cornwood parish, Devon, which I look after as an OPC. I wrote about it a blog post of February 17th, which some readers may find of interest. http://discovergenealogy.blogspot.ca/2015/02/recognizing-notables-in-parish-records.html There is an old book on the subject by Charles Boutell, titled English Heraldry, published in 1867 that is sort of the bible for students. You can read it online or download it from archive.org. The terms, “Mr.”, “Gentleman” and “Esquire” are used somewhat differently now and do not convey the same status as they did prior to the 20th century. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquire I have not seen the term “Pleb” in any parish record yet. Webster and Oxford dictionaries define it as an ordinary person who has low social status. Wayne Shepheard Online Parish Clerk www.cornwood-opc.com/cornwood www.cornwood-opc.com/harford www.cornwood-opc.com/psmary www.cornwood-opc.com/psmaurice cornwood.opc@shaw.ca ------------------------------------------
I found a division of hierarchy, expressed with various honorifics, in Cornwood parish, Devon, which I look after as an OPC. I wrote about it a blog post of February 17th, which some readers may find of interest. http://discovergenealogy.blogspot.ca/2015/02/recognizing-notables-in-parish-records.html There is an old book on the subject by Charles Boutell, titled English Heraldry, published in 1867 that is sort of the bible for students. You can read it online or download it from archive.org. The terms, “Mr.”, “Gentleman” and “Esquire” are used somewhat differently now and do not convey the same status as they did prior to the 20th century. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquire I have not seen the term “Pleb” in any parish record yet. Webster and Oxford dictionaries define it as an ordinary person who has low social status. Wayne Shepheard Online Parish Clerk www.cornwood-opc.com/cornwood www.cornwood-opc.com/harford www.cornwood-opc.com/psmary www.cornwood-opc.com/psmaurice cornwood.opc@shaw.ca
True, gents did pay higher fees than plebs! A ----Original message---- >From : elizgh@btinternet.com Date : 28/03/2015 - 16:14 (GMTST) To : angela.marks2011@btinternet.com, devon@rootsweb.com Subject : [DEV] Plebs and gents Hi , perhaps it was the colour of their money !! -----Original Message----- From: ANGELA MARKS via Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 11:22 AM To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Plebs and gents Not sure if this is the right list, but there are such knowledgeable people here, someone’s sure to have the right answer! Many of us have Devon ancestors who went to Oxford University and can find out about them in Oxford Alumni, where they are described as pleb. or gent. - pleb: plebeian, of the common people; gent. gentleman: a more tricky definition. Gentleman/armiger is often interchangeable, meaning one who has the right to use a coat of arms (although the College of Arms tell me this was not always the case, I have ‘gents’ in my family tree who did not have a formal grant of arms) I’ve also seen arm. fil. – son of an armiger. My question: does anyone know what criteria Oxford University used to decide whether an alumnus was a pleb or a gent? Angela in Exmouth ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com
Hi , perhaps it was the colour of their money !! -----Original Message----- From: ANGELA MARKS via Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 11:22 AM To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Plebs and gents Not sure if this is the right list, but there are such knowledgeable people here, someone’s sure to have the right answer! Many of us have Devon ancestors who went to Oxford University and can find out about them in Oxford Alumni, where they are described as pleb. or gent. - pleb: plebeian, of the common people; gent. gentleman: a more tricky definition. Gentleman/armiger is often interchangeable, meaning one who has the right to use a coat of arms (although the College of Arms tell me this was not always the case, I have ‘gents’ in my family tree who did not have a formal grant of arms) I’ve also seen arm. fil. – son of an armiger. My question: does anyone know what criteria Oxford University used to decide whether an alumnus was a pleb or a gent? Angela in Exmouth ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com
Not sure if this is the right list, but there are such knowledgeable people here, someone’s sure to have the right answer! Many of us have Devon ancestors who went to Oxford University and can find out about them in Oxford Alumni, where they are described as pleb. or gent. - pleb: plebeian, of the common people; gent. gentleman: a more tricky definition. Gentleman/armiger is often interchangeable, meaning one who has the right to use a coat of arms (although the College of Arms tell me this was not always the case, I have ‘gents’ in my family tree who did not have a formal grant of arms) I’ve also seen arm. fil. – son of an armiger. My question: does anyone know what criteria Oxford University used to decide whether an alumnus was a pleb or a gent? Angela in Exmouth
Lizzie We have the same line. My Glanville Croydon is the older brother of your Elizabeth. I have been trying to find more information on Elizabeth Phillips, their mother. our joint Croydon line I have traced back to the late 1600s if you would like that info let me know. We may want to continue this conversation in private email. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com