Hi Elizabeth,   I did some further investigating and came across another puzzle (and another surname) associated with Richard.  When he married in 1813 he was a widower resident at Brixton and I looked to see if there were any other baptisms relating to Page Saunders and I found two earlier baptisms at Brixton (Harriet Page Saunders 1802 and Jane Page Saunders 1804).  Here the plot thickens because the original entry shows that on Harriet's baptism the original surname is Dericott and that was scored through and Saunders inserted.  The mother was Sarah Petherne.   I couldn't find a marriage of Richard Page Saunders to Sarah Petherne BUT when I searched for a Sarah Petherne marriage I found a marriage to Richard Page Derricott at Modbury in 1800.   Can anyone find a marriage of  Ann Saunders to a Derricott/Darracott etc?  One possible explanation is that Richard's mother married a Derricott and he was raised using that surname (which tends to imply that he isn't the son of the Ann Saunders married to Philip Saunders).  Or, was he farmed out to a family called Derricott and not raised by his mother?  Or was his birth father a Derricott?  I doubt if we will ever know unless there is a Saunders/Dericott marriage or a descendant has a story passed down through the family.   Joy  ________________________________ From: elizabeth howard <elizgh@btinternet.com> To: Blaine Sanders <utvairs@yahoo.com>; devon@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, 5 December 2013, 11:42 Subject: [DEV] Baptized as "Base" son/daughter                 Hi,  you don`t say where you " came across " this information .  Sanders/Saunders is a most populous Devon name and perhaps this is another Saunders ?  it seems unlikely that a family would choose one child out of 8 , to highlight as being illegitimate . .  I would try find out more before deciding that Ann the wife of Philip had an " affair " . And follow up Joy`s lead with the 1813 marriage of Richard Page Saunders . life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ----- Original Message ----- 

Hi Ann Adding a father's name was not a matter to be undertaken lightly. By so doing the father was then going to come under substantial pressure for financial support for the child and also (depending largely on when) they could also be subject to proceedings in a Church court. The vicar would almost certainly be among the ratepayers and also quite likely to be on the Board of Guardians for the Poor Law and as such would want to make sure the father was correctly identified so the child did not become a charge on the rates. I have often found against entries for christening a child with just the mother's name listed "base child"-or one of the other euphemisms- and then "Putative father Joe Bloggs". The putative father could accept it and then have a support rate set or fight it and then there would be an Inquiry into Bastardy hearing in front of the Poor Law Guardians and that could be appealed to the Quarter Sessions. There were really substantial legal pressures against having an illegitimate child back then, not to mention the financial and social ones as well. A child born to another father was always assumed to be the child of the husband (and still is, even in an age of DNA testing). A child born even a day after the wedding was still legitimate whereas one born a day earlier was not. All very harsh, in my view. Jon -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Joy Langdon Sent: 04 December 2013 21:05 To: Blaine Sanders; devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Baptized as "Base" son/daughter Are you sure that the Ann Saunders who is the mother of Richard Page is the same Ann who is the wife of Philip Saunders?    She could be a different single woman, maybe even a relative of Philip and Ann who stayed with them for the confinement.  Or, is it certain that Philip was still alive when Ann baptised Richard Page?  It is quite usual for widows to continue using their married name after their husband's death.     As I said recently, I have two instances in my family tree where the middle name given to a baseborn child is clearly the father's name because the women concerned then married a man with that name as a surname.  However, it was also common for the mother's surname or a grandparent's surname to appear as a middle name and I also have an example where a godparent's name was the middle name, although these instances have always appeared with a legitimate birth.   There is a marriage of Richard Page Sanders in 1813 to Cecily Parsons. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCSD-L93    Joy ________________________________ From: Blaine Sanders <utvairs@yahoo.com> To: "devon@rootsweb.com" <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, 4 December 2013, 16:14 Subject: [DEV] Baptized as "Base" son/daughter A couple of weeks ago, as I was piecing together an ancestral family from the Plymouth area, I came across a son from a marriage that was listed as "Richard Page Base son of Ann Saunders and ?" At first, I couldn't make out the "e" on the end of "Base", and I thought perhaps it was an abbreviation of "Baptized" or "B*stard". But then as I continued going through later entries in the registry, I started seeing a lot more of the same word, more legibly written as "Base". These entries either only listed the mother as the parent, or the mother and a father with a different surname. So at this point I have conclusively decided that Richard Page was indeed an illegitimate child from an extra-marital relationship. The interesting thing is that this son came along after 4 previous siblings, and 3 other siblings proceeded him, all through Ann's husband, Philip Saunders. So he obviously knew of the affair and stayed with her. Kudos to him.  Anyway, that's all mostly irrelevant information. What I'm interested in knowing is if "Page" would possibly be Richard's biological father's surname? Would it have been customary to list the illicit father's surname like this, or would it more likely have been a middle name? I found a marriage of a Richard Page in the same parish roughly 20 years later, but no Richard Page Saunders. Opinions? Thank you, Blaine Sanders ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, you don`t say where you " came across " this information . Sanders/Saunders is a most populous Devon name and perhaps this is another Saunders ? it seems unlikely that a family would choose one child out of 8 , to highlight as being illegitimate . . I would try find out more before deciding that Ann the wife of Philip had an " affair " . And follow up Joy`s lead with the 1813 marriage of Richard Page Saunders . life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Sanders" <utvairs@yahoo.com> To: <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:14 PM Subject: [DEV] Baptized as "Base" son/daughter A couple of weeks ago, as I was piecing together an ancestral family from the Plymouth area, I came across a son from a marriage that was listed as "Richard Page Base son of Ann Saunders and ?" At first, I couldn't make out the "e" on the end of "Base", and I thought perhaps it was an abbreviation of "Baptized" or "B*stard". But then as I continued going through later entries in the registry, I started seeing a lot more of the same word, more legibly written as "Base". These entries either only listed the mother as the parent, or the mother and a father with a different surname. So at this point I have conclusively decided that Richard Page was indeed an illegitimate child from an extra-marital relationship. The interesting thing is that this son came along after 4 previous siblings, and 3 other siblings proceeded him, all through Ann's husband, Philip Saunders. So he obviously knew of the affair and stayed with her. Kudos to him. Anyway, that's all mostly irrelevant information. What I'm interested in knowing is if "Page" would possibly be Richard's biological father's surname? Would it have been customary to list the illicit father's surname like this, or would it more likely have been a middle name? I found a marriage of a Richard Page in the same parish roughly 20 years later, but no Richard Page Saunders. Opinions? Thank you, Blaine Sanders ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

So it is, thanks. I didn't think to look there in the mistaken belief that Devon parish register transcriptions are very thin on the ground. I subscribe to FMP so can update the whole branch today. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dmbhunt Sent: 05 December 2013 07:56 To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Baptism of Elizabeth Stidston(e) c. 1822 South Brent The info you want is available on the subscription paying site findmypast or through the Devon FHS again there will be a fee check their website to see their very reasonable rates. Sent from my iPad

Elizabeth/Joy, After some reflection and further research I realize I have jumped too quickly to conclusions on Richard Page. I have not had time to search the registers for other possibilities for Ann Saunders, etc. For now, I am withdrawing my assumption that Richard Page belongs to the same Ann Saunders that is married to Philip Saunders. But, Elizabeth to answer your curiosity, here is the information I shared with Joy: Philip Sanders m. Ann Lang May 12, 1761 in Plymstock (familysearch.com film #004635185) Banns "England, Devon, Parish Registers, 1538-1912," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14546-633-72?cc=1804330&wc=MMBD-PFS:515723165 : accessed 28 Nov 2013), 004635174 > image 22 of 101. Marriage "England, Devon, Parish Registers, 1538-1912," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14546-6503-24?cc=1804330&wc=MMBD-PF6:n1846847921 : accessed 25 Nov 2013), 004635185 > image 45 of 130. Children born in Brixton (I do not have image references for these, they were given to me by Bev) Mary Lang, D. of Philip Saunders, b. Mar 16, 1764 Mary, D. of Philip Saunders, b. Jun 6, 1766 Philip, S. of Philip Saunders, b. Nov 5, 1769 William, S. of Philip Saunders, b. May21, 1771 Children born after moving back to Plymstock (familysearch.com film #004635185) Richard Page, Base S. of Ann Saunders and ?  Apr 18, 1774 (img 82) Ann, D of Philip and Ann Saunders, b. Feb 10, 1775 (img 84) Henry, S. of Philip and Ann Saunders, b. July 6, 1778 (img 90) Sarah, D. of Philip and Ann Saunders, b. Nov. 16, 1781 (img 98) Mary Lang Saunders, the first daughter born in Brixton, was only ~10 when the family moved back to Plymstock, and she later married William Williams in Plymstock on Dec 28, 1786 (img 116) There is only 9 months between the birth of Richard Page and Ann, which I agree is highly unlikely -- but also not impossible. Joy, with her brilliant research, has chased down some other information on Richard Page, suggesting that he may have used another surname, Derricott. It's a mystery, to be sure. There are multiple death records for Ann Saunders in the Plymstock registry (one of which I believe is Philip's wife, and two others could well be their daughter and the daughter of John Saunders), but I have not yet had time to explore whether there were other Ann Saunders' in Plymstock at the time that were unwed and of child bearing age. Though there are quite a few Saunders in the whole of Devon, the percentage of Saunders' in the small rural registries I'm dealing with is quite low. My line (as far as I have traced it) was concentrated in the Yealmpton, Plymstock, and Brixton registries for at least 3 generations. It shouldn't be hard to find any other Ann's in Plymstock that could have fit the bill. Thanks for helping to shed light on this. Sincerely, Blaine On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:42 AM, elizabeth howard <elizgh@btinternet.com> wrote:                 Hi,  you don`t say where you " came across " this information .  Sanders/Saunders is a most populous Devon name and perhaps this is another Saunders ?  it seems unlikely that a family would choose one child out of 8 , to highlight as being illegitimate . .  I would try find out more before deciding that Ann the wife of Philip had an " affair " . And follow up Joy`s lead with the 1813 marriage of Richard Page Saunders .

May be wrong, but I thought a child born to a married woman was legally not regarded as illegitimate, but as a child of the marriage, ie of the husband, regardless of knowledge of the true paternity. Could this child have been born before the marriage, but not baptised until much later? Robyn On 5/12/2013 3:14 AM, Blaine Sanders wrote: > A couple of weeks ago, as I was piecing together an ancestral family from the Plymouth area, I came across a son from a marriage that was listed as "Richard Page Base son of Ann Saunders and ?" > > At first, I couldn't make out the "e" on the end of "Base", and I thought perhaps it was an abbreviation of "Baptized" or "B*stard". But then as I continued going through later entries in the registry, I started seeing a lot more of the same word, more legibly written as "Base". These entries either only listed the mother as the parent, or the mother and a father with a different surname. > > So at this point I have conclusively decided that Richard Page was indeed an illegitimate child from an extra-marital relationship. The interesting thing is that this son came along after 4 previous siblings, and 3 other siblings proceeded him, all through Ann's husband, Philip Saunders. So he obviously knew of the affair and stayed with her. Kudos to him. > > Anyway, that's all mostly irrelevant information. What I'm interested in knowing is if "Page" would possibly be Richard's biological father's surname? Would it have been customary to list the illicit father's surname like this, or would it more likely have been a middle name? I found a marriage of a Richard Page in the same parish roughly 20 years later, but no Richard Page Saunders. > > Opinions? > > Thank you, > Blaine Sanders > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi List There being no OPC for South Brent I would like to ask if any member has access to South Brent baptisms. I'm looking for Elizabeth STIDSTON who is thought to have been baptised about 1821-1822 to William & Ann STIDSTON. This couple had at least 7 children between 1816 and 1834 according to census records. Many thanks Kevin Walker NZ

Kevin Elizabeth STIDSTON was christened 16 Dec 1821 at South Brent, d/o William and Anne of Brent Village, Glazier Regards Bev -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Walker" <kjwgen@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 3:50 AM To: <devon@rootsweb.com> Subject: [DEV] Baptism of Elizabeth Stidston(e) c. 1822 South Brent > Hi List > > There being no OPC for South Brent I would like to ask if any member has > access to South Brent baptisms. I'm looking for Elizabeth STIDSTON who is > thought to have been baptised about 1821-1822 to William & Ann STIDSTON. > This couple had at least 7 children between 1816 and 1834 according to > census records. > > Many thanks > Kevin Walker > NZ > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3657/6389 - Release Date: 12/03/13 >

Are you sure that the Ann Saunders who is the mother of Richard Page is the same Ann who is the wife of Philip Saunders?    She could be a different single woman, maybe even a relative of Philip and Ann who stayed with them for the confinement.  Or, is it certain that Philip was still alive when Ann baptised Richard Page?  It is quite usual for widows to continue using their married name after their husband's death.     As I said recently, I have two instances in my family tree where the middle name given to a baseborn child is clearly the father's name because the women concerned then married a man with that name as a surname.  However, it was also common for the mother's surname or a grandparent's surname to appear as a middle name and I also have an example where a godparent's name was the middle name, although these instances have always appeared with a legitimate birth.   There is a marriage of Richard Page Sanders in 1813 to Cecily Parsons. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCSD-L93    Joy ________________________________ From: Blaine Sanders <utvairs@yahoo.com> To: "devon@rootsweb.com" <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, 4 December 2013, 16:14 Subject: [DEV] Baptized as "Base" son/daughter A couple of weeks ago, as I was piecing together an ancestral family from the Plymouth area, I came across a son from a marriage that was listed as "Richard Page Base son of Ann Saunders and ?" At first, I couldn't make out the "e" on the end of "Base", and I thought perhaps it was an abbreviation of "Baptized" or "B*stard". But then as I continued going through later entries in the registry, I started seeing a lot more of the same word, more legibly written as "Base". These entries either only listed the mother as the parent, or the mother and a father with a different surname. So at this point I have conclusively decided that Richard Page was indeed an illegitimate child from an extra-marital relationship. The interesting thing is that this son came along after 4 previous siblings, and 3 other siblings proceeded him, all through Ann's husband, Philip Saunders. So he obviously knew of the affair and stayed with her. Kudos to him.  Anyway, that's all mostly irrelevant information. What I'm interested in knowing is if "Page" would possibly be Richard's biological father's surname? Would it have been customary to list the illicit father's surname like this, or would it more likely have been a middle name? I found a marriage of a Richard Page in the same parish roughly 20 years later, but no Richard Page Saunders. Opinions? Thank you, Blaine Sanders ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

<<snipped>> Would it have been customary to list the illicit father's surname like this, or would it more likely have been a middle name? <<snipped>> My impression is that *generally* children's surnames on baptisms go by default, and hence the full name *implied* was "Richard Page Saunders". Again, *generally* the illegitimate child has the mother's surname - as they are "nobody's child" in some views, it would be illogical to assign a surname from a father who is unknown. The very fact that the father's name is "?" suggests either ignorance of the father's name or a profound reluctance to use it. It is therefore unlikely that the parish clerk would have contradicted those views by suddenly putting the father's surname in. <<snipped>> What I'm interested in knowing is if "Page" would possibly be Richard's biological father's surname? <<snipped>> Possibly - but it could also be the name of someone who looked after her during her pregnancy - her husband's view at the time might not have been so relaxed. <<snipped>> I found a marriage of a Richard Page in the same parish roughly 20 years later, but no Richard Page Saunders. <<snipped>> Bear in mind that the baptised name might be discarded later on, so the child might have been "officially" RPS to start with but used "RP" later on. There is considerable supposition in all this, with lots of use of weasel words like "generally". In many cases we can only guess at the true meaning of what is written there. So long as we understand these are guesses and do not use them as "proof", then that's fine. Certainly I see no proof here of the child's name or parentage. Well, except for the mother! Adrian B

Blaine, Base or Baseborn is used by some clergy to denote illegitimacy. Mothers sometimes used the father's surname as a middle name to show a family connection. Middle names were also used for legitimate births to show a possible interest in an inheritance. Paul -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Blaine Sanders Sent: 04 December 2013 16:14 To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: [DEV] Baptized as "Base" son/daughter A couple of weeks ago, as I was piecing together an ancestral family from the Plymouth area, I came across a son from a marriage that was listed as "Richard Page Base son of Ann Saunders and ?" At first, I couldn't make out the "e" on the end of "Base", and I thought perhaps it was an abbreviation of "Baptized" or "B*stard". But then as I continued going through later entries in the registry, I started seeing a lot more of the same word, more legibly written as "Base". These entries either only listed the mother as the parent, or the mother and a father with a different surname. So at this point I have conclusively decided that Richard Page was indeed an illegitimate child from an extra-marital relationship. The interesting thing is that this son came along after 4 previous siblings, and 3 other siblings proceeded him, all through Ann's husband, Philip Saunders. So he obviously knew of the affair and stayed with her. Kudos to him.  Anyway, that's all mostly irrelevant information. What I'm interested in knowing is if "Page" would possibly be Richard's biological father's surname? Would it have been customary to list the illicit father's surname like this, or would it more likely have been a middle name? I found a marriage of a Richard Page in the same parish roughly 20 years later, but no Richard Page Saunders. Opinions? Thank you, Blaine Sanders ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The info you want is available on the subscription paying site findmypast or through the Devon FHS again there will be a fee check their website to see their very reasonable rates. Sent from my iPad > On 4 Dec 2013, at 17:50, "Kevin Walker" <kjwgen@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi List > > There being no OPC for South Brent I would like to ask if any member has > access to South Brent baptisms. I'm looking for Elizabeth STIDSTON who is > thought to have been baptised about 1821-1822 to William & Ann STIDSTON. > This couple had at least 7 children between 1816 and 1834 according to > census records. > > Many thanks > Kevin Walker > NZ > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A couple of weeks ago, as I was piecing together an ancestral family from the Plymouth area, I came across a son from a marriage that was listed as "Richard Page Base son of Ann Saunders and ?" At first, I couldn't make out the "e" on the end of "Base", and I thought perhaps it was an abbreviation of "Baptized" or "B*stard". But then as I continued going through later entries in the registry, I started seeing a lot more of the same word, more legibly written as "Base". These entries either only listed the mother as the parent, or the mother and a father with a different surname. So at this point I have conclusively decided that Richard Page was indeed an illegitimate child from an extra-marital relationship. The interesting thing is that this son came along after 4 previous siblings, and 3 other siblings proceeded him, all through Ann's husband, Philip Saunders. So he obviously knew of the affair and stayed with her. Kudos to him.  Anyway, that's all mostly irrelevant information. What I'm interested in knowing is if "Page" would possibly be Richard's biological father's surname? Would it have been customary to list the illicit father's surname like this, or would it more likely have been a middle name? I found a marriage of a Richard Page in the same parish roughly 20 years later, but no Richard Page Saunders. Opinions? Thank you, Blaine Sanders

Hi Tony My Hamblyn family descends from James Hamlin and Anne Moore. James born abt 1785. This couple had 5 children that I know of, and as far as I am aware lived in the Holsworthy area all their lives. I have a Hamblyn family website (needs update). Follow this link. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hhhgroupnz/index.html.

Not all of us are aware of the meaning of the abbreviations that you use. Please elaborate. I am a descendant of the "Hamblyn" family who emigrated to New Zealand in the early 1840['s-1850's. They hail from Holsworthy. Hamblyn is one of many variations of Hamlyn, and was adopted by the family about the time they landed in New Plymouth, New Zealand. I am always more than happy to exchange info if you are so inclined. Regards and happy hunting Bill Girling. Sanson. New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. Edmonds" <beverley@yourisp.com.au> To: <DEVON@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 8:38 PM Subject: [DEV] [FIBIS] John HAMLYN of Plymouth > John HAMLYN of Plymouth of EICS Gardner, but on board the M.S. Africa > Died: M.S. Africa > to Elizabeth HOWLETT, formerly HAMLYM [w/o William HOWLETT], the relict > PCC Admin: 3 Jan 1803 > > PROB: 6/179 > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

John HAMLYN of Plymouth of EICS Gardner, but on board the M.S. Africa Died: M.S. Africa to Elizabeth HOWLETT, formerly HAMLYM [w/o William HOWLETT], the relict PCC Admin: 3 Jan 1803 PROB: 6/179

http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/ It's a long hard slog, unless one has a name to look for. But under PCC Wills I found the following. There will be more I am sure. PCC PROB 6/181/IR 26/188 19 Oct 1805 Samuel GAWLER of Chudleigh, Devon Capt. H.M. 73 Foot in East Indies, to Julia GAWLER [of Chudleigh] Maybe someone will have some luck and find their person of interest. Have fun. Bev

The death certificate had to be issued somewhere. That's where I'd start my search. -----Original Message----- From: jjowen@sympatico.ca Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 1:22 AM To: devon@rootsweb.com Cc: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Cemetery Records Hi Jean, I found your comments to be most informative. Unfortunately, unless we know where our ancestors were buried, very little information is provided on the death certificates. The ones I have been able to purchase only show basic information and certainly no interment details. So, is this information available somewhere? Regards .. Joyce Sent from my iPad > On Dec 1, 2013, at 8:07 PM, "Jean Harris" <j.egerton@sympatico.ca> wrote: > > > Adding to this topic by Terry Blackmore and others, here is a word about > the Cemetery records. I have found these are well worth while exploring as > there is more to be found in them than in the church burial registers. > This of course will relate to the late 1800s when the churchyards could > not cope any longer and the Cemetery Act was passed to deal with this > problem. > > Some years ago when I visited the Torquay Cemetery to see the grave of my > grandparents, I saw that the stone recorded the name of their eldest > daughter as being there with them. However, it was not until I went to > their office to see the actual record that I found that their eldest son > is also interred in the same grave. He is not recorded on their stone and > I have no idea as to why his name does not appear there with those of his > parents and his sister but there it is. > > Additionally I found that the Cemetery Records have the name of those > persons who paid for the grave, digging etc and as this is usually a > relative (plus their home address) that is another item not to be found in > the Church records. Then (if you really want to know!) it also has the > name of the funeral directors who handled all the arrangements for the > burials. All in all makes this makes the Cemetery records well worth > exploring for all of that additional info. > > Jean Harris in Toronto > > > > > >> On Nov 29, 2013, at 7:18 PM, <Terryblackmore@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> >> Parish Burial Registers belong to the Church and the cemetery's belong >> to the local council. So the cemetery will have records of who is buried >> there, where and when. The Church just the record of when he was buried >> and maybe the death date. Both can be assessed, though not sure if any >> local councils put cemetery records on line. One might have to get the >> records from the cemetery. I did for a return visit to my father's burial >> plot. It was no where near where I thought it was. The cemetery having >> changed so much since I was at his funeral. Now a days of course there >> are death certificates that copies can be applied for from the local >> Registrar of BMDs. >> >> Terry Blackmore >> OPC, Sheldon, Devon >> >> >> ------------------------------------------ >> The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >> ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) >> and >> the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >> List archive for Devon can be found at >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> ------------------------------------------ >> The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >> ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) >> and >> the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >> List archive for Devon can be found at >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Bill, I have Blanch Hamlyn who married John Figures (or Vigars and who is probably my 9 x Great-Grandfather) in November 1573 (precise day is missing in the register) at Lamerton near Tavistock. I have not found a baptism for Blanch although the records are rather thin in the 1500's in Lamerton. Have you traced the Hamlyn's back that far at Holsworthy? Tony Vigars -----Original Message----- From: mailman59 Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 7:54 AM To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] [FIBIS] John HAMLYN of Plymouth Not all of us are aware of the meaning of the abbreviations that you use. Please elaborate. I am a descendant of the "Hamblyn" family who emigrated to New Zealand in the early 1840['s-1850's. They hail from Holsworthy. Hamblyn is one of many variations of Hamlyn, and was adopted by the family about the time they landed in New Plymouth, New Zealand. I am always more than happy to exchange info if you are so inclined. Regards and happy hunting Bill Girling. Sanson. New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. Edmonds" <beverley@yourisp.com.au> To: <DEVON@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 8:38 PM Subject: [DEV] [FIBIS] John HAMLYN of Plymouth > John HAMLYN of Plymouth of EICS Gardner, but on board the M.S. Africa > Died: M.S. Africa > to Elizabeth HOWLETT, formerly HAMLYM [w/o William HOWLETT], the relict > PCC Admin: 3 Jan 1803 > > PROB: 6/179 > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bev, The Old Series (1809) OS map (202 in the Cassini reprint series, i.e. on modern OS landranger map 202) shows Moorland was very close to Rattery parish. Moore is also shown on the map and although not far away was clearly a different place. Go to google maps, google on Lisburne Copse and it's the farm etc. just to the right of the road that runs roughly N-S a little right of the copse (or see link below). LDS 1851 map, where the parish boundaries are a little approximate, shows the point where South Brent, Harberton and a detached bit of Dartington Parishes meet on top of the settlement. The boundaries on that map are close enough for most places but when a property is right on the boundary you need to be wary about assuming which parish it was in. The house there now, I don't know if it's an old house, appears to be in South Brent, I thought it might have been the detached part of Dartington, but the tithe and other info suggest the land holding at least was in Harberton. Elizabeth mentions the field names on the tithe map, I haven't seen the map so while she may be right that Moorland was a field name the index on FODA also shows Moorland it as the holding name so would be less likely to change (that index as you probably know doesn't include field names). As you say they could have been in a farm cottage and being this close to the parish boundary it's possible the main farm houses and any cottages were in different parishes! It was nearer to Rattery Church than to the churches of the 3 parishes it may have been in, hence why they might have used it instead. See https://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=203580651015267103576.0004ec79203db13e46f27&msa=0&ll=50.426019,-3.775005&spn=0.081802,0.222988 (http://tinyurl.com/or9mzvh) Else I had thought at first - before I saw Moorland on the map - it could be similar sounding to Moreleigh, there is a Marley on the borders of Rattery and South Brent. Looking on the LDS 1851 map most of the houses seem to be in South Brent, though Marley Tunnel (railway) is in Rattery parish but Devon place names book shows Marley House in Rattery parish. The place name book also shows that Mar can derive from boundary rather than than moor; given the 3 parishes meeting near Moorland it might have meant that there rather than the more obvious that the land was of a moor nature. None of my modern maps show any name for this location, and 'driving' past the entrances on Google Street view I couldn't see a name board, so I don't know if the name is still used. Too expensive to have for everywhere, but I do find the Cassini maps useful, especially the Old Series, I've found a number of places by looking at them, although as the map makers were not local they sometimes have odd phonetic spellings you don't find elsewhere. Teresa On 01/12/2013 08:42, Michael Mitchelmore wrote: > Are you sure it is not Moreleigh (parish)? > > Mike > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Mitchelmore > Wahroonga NSW, Australia > > >> ________________________________ >> From: B. Edmonds <beverley@yourisp.com.au> >> To: DEVON@rootsweb.com; eng-dev-southhams@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013 9:14 AM >> Subject: [SOUTHHAMS] Moreland [where is it] in Devon? [SMITH] >> >> >> Morning all, >> >> Harberton PR's >> >> Elizabeth w/o William SMITH of Moreland was buried at Rattery 9 Oct 1696. >> >> Trying to establish where Moreland is? It does not seem to appear in the >> Gazetteer on Genuki. >> >> There is a little hamlet called Moore in Harberton, could it mean that? >> >> Bev