Hi Teresa, Thanks for responding and for your suggestions. I have not tried overseer accounts for Hartland yet; I often wish I lived close to the North Devon Record Office and could pop in regularly to view these things in person. The large range for births definitely suggests that there were, at a minimum, two different Ann Evans giving birth in Hartland. Since the examinations for the 1796 and 1804 births both said that Ann Evans was "of Hartland" and that the child was likely to be chargeable to Hartland, at a minimum one of the Anns seems to have had right of settlement in Hartland (possibly two of them if the births were to different Anns). Hartland issued removal orders for a number of other people and I think they would have tried the same with Ann if they believed she didn't have right of settlement. The only probate I have found for these families so far was for the Charles Evans that may have been Ann Evans the elder's son, and in reviewing my research for this thread I realized that I have yet to try to request a copy. The Probate Calendar says that his estate was under 100 pounds and his wife was his sole executrix, but of course you never know what surprise might be in the probate till you review the actual probate. The reason I first posted hoping for ideas for a record I could try to locate that would list some specific detail about Ann (birth place, age, parentage, etc.) is precisely because otherwise there are so many choices. To date I haven't found any Ann Evans baptized in the neighboring parishes in the time frame the Anns were probably born, but she could have potentially come from farther away. The geographically closest I have found to date in Devon is an Ann Evans baptized in Buckland Brewer in 1752, followed by an Ann Evans baptized in Northam in 1758 and an "Ann Evens" baptized in Northam in 1762. Ann also could have come from Cornwall since Hartland is so close to it, though the Cornwall OPC site doesn't show any Ann Evans at all baptized near the border. (I first checked for Ann Evanses in the DFHS transcriptions that used to be on FindMyPast back when I was working on these families a lot a couple years ago, but in trying to double-check my work this morning they don't seem to be on FMP any more, so I've double-checked on IGI instead, meaning any Devon parishes that aren't included in IGI were missed in my double-check.) Thanks again for your ideas! Liz Loveland

Dear All While turning out I have found the extract and probate of this chap's will dated 1823. He died in London but the will includes refers to other family members still living in Devon. I cannot see that he is any connection of mine so if this is of interest to anyone else let me know and I will pass it on. Cheers Monica Smale

Not necessarily - depends on the person writing up the records. I have found so many errors in the 40 years I have been researching that I believe nothing I read until I have proven it for myself. It is not necessarily a widow but just a little point to keep in the back of your mind. Yes there appear to be two Ann Evanses due to the time frame but keep a very open mind. Marie -----Original Message----- From: Liz Loveland Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 10:35 AM To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Tracing mother of an 'illegitimate' child Hi again, Marie, Thanks for responding again. You said, "Just a small point - the Ann in question may be the widow of one of the Evans men.........." I'm not sure which Ann Evans you're referencing, but as I mentioned in response to Paul, the examinations and bastardy bonds call my Ann Evans a "singlewoman." The parish register also lists the children as base-born. If Ann were a widow, would both these things have been phrased the way they were? There could definitely have been at least two separate Ann Evanses giving birth to children in Hartland. There is a big gap in births before and after John's birth, whichever Ann gave birth to John Kinsman alias Evans. Thanks again, Liz Loveland ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Chuck this is now called Devon Heritage Services and can be found at devrec@devon.gov.uk and Devon Heritage Services Great Moor House Bittern Road Sowton EXETER Devon EX2 7NL - See more at: http://www.devon.gov.uk/record_office.htm#sthash.Zl0e1lZ0.dpuf life is hard . soften it with a cat \\\=^..^=/// ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck May" <ChuckMay@may-engineering.com> To: <devon@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 4:28 AM Subject: [DEV] Will from Devon Record Office (was Devon Wills) > Can anyone suggest how someone in the US can get access to a will in the > Devon Record Office? > > Specifically I am looking for the following from "Estate Duty Office > Wills": > "Thomas May of Brixham, Devon, 1833, 1078/IRW/M/460". > > I am trying to find a connection with the Thomas May who was a baker, and > was a passenger in the barque "Mary Ann" from London and Plymouth to > Australia, departing about 4 February 1833 and arriving in Sydney 15 > November 1833. > > This Thomas had a younger brother Robert who, with wife Mary, departed > from > London or Plymouth in the "City of Edinburgh" November 1833 and arrived in > Sydney March 1834. > > Thank you. > > Chuck May > Pittsfield Massachusetts, USA > ChuckMay@may-engineering.com > http://www.may-engineering.com > > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Jon: DWP is not collecting will transcripts, but I happily accept them for GENUKI/Devon, which by now contains nearly five hundred will transcripts. I of course would prefer transcripts of Devon wills that miraculously escaped the wartime destruction of the Exeter probate office, but am grateful for PROB 11 wills, and ones from other sources. My preference is for transcripts to be very simply formatted - basic text will do, rather than multiple fonts, footnotes, etc. - so as to ease my task of converting them to HTML. I also ask that they are accompanied by full reference details, obtained directly from the archive holding them. (In the case of TNA, PCC wills now have a more detailed reference number than they used to have, e.g. PROB 11/350/266 rather than PROB 11/350.) Thanks in advance! Cheers Brian On 8 Jan 2014, at 02:53, Jonathan Frayne <jonfrayne@btinternet.com> wrote: > Hi Brian > > Are you then collecting transcripts of PROB 11 wills? If so I can let you > have copies of mine. > > Jon > > -----Original Message----- > From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Brian Randell > Sent: 07 January 2014 22:28 > To: <devon@rootsweb.com> > Cc: Brian Randell > Subject: Re: [DEV] Devon Wills > > Hi Tim: > > On 7 Jan 2014, at 22:22, Tim Treeby (Genealogy) wrote: > >> So long as you are looking at the right Dataset it definitely looks to >> be all PCC Wills, with the actual copy of the will as you would get >> from TNA. >> As they definitely list one's up to 1858 and looking at the image >> gives the actual Will. >> The fact that i struggle to actually read the will is a different >> matter, but it is there. > > Check the Devon Wills Project - just in case the will has already been > transcribed or abstracted. > > Cheers > > Brian > > > -- > School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, > NE1 7RU, UK > EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 222 7923 > FAX = +44 191 222 8232 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/brian.randell > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( > http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS > (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 222 7923 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/brian.randell

Hi again, Joy, Thanks for responding again and sorry I misunderstood your question. John Kinsman alias Evans and his wife Ann (Buse) Evans lived next door to William Evans and his wife Isott (Buse) Evans. Ann and Isott were sisters. The two families appear to have been very close as when one moved, the other moved as well, and they sometimes reported each other's vital records after civil registration began. I have wondered since first reviewing these records whether John and William were siblings or cousins, since there appears to have only been one main Evans family in Hartland at the time William and Isott married, but so far I haven't found anything to definitively prove nor disprove the theory, though as you noted in your previous email, when working with parish records it is often hard to do more than make the best case you can. The Hartland baptism that best matches William's stated age on adult records is the 1788 baptism by "Ann Evens" which sounds like the same baptism you found in your search. I have also tracked the Charles Evans who is living down the street from William and John on the 1841 census, and as an adult he gave variable ages which has made it somewhat difficult to judge whether he is the same Charles born to Ann Evans and baptized at Hartland in 1781. There does not appear to have been another Charles Evans baptized in Hartland in the early to mid-1780's, and Charles gave Hartland as his birthplace on every record I've reviewed that's that specific, so it's mostly been a process of elimination so far. (Hopefully there wasn't a Charles Evans who was born in Hartland then and baptized elsewhere or not baptized at all!) So far I haven't found a connection between the Kinsman family and any of these Evans families though. Thanks for investigating on my behalf! Liz Loveland

Hi Liz Yes it is time consuming but over the years it has proved invaluable to my research. I would suggest you start with the earliest record and slowly put them into family groups The illegitimate births I would make a separate record to one side. The time frames should also help you sort out which Ann has which child - taking into account their age and knowing the time frames in which they would be able to have children. Also do not forget to add any deaths/burials you find. Just a small point - the Ann in question may be the widow of one of the Evans men.......... Good luck Marie -----Original Message----- From: Liz Loveland Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 10:01 AM To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Tracing mother of an 'illegitimate' child Hi Marie, Thanks for answering with your suggestion. I have gotten partway there over the past couple of years but the same given names repeat so much, with so many 'illegitimate' births to Evans women and so few surviving bastardy bonds, that I have been finding it hard to sort out who's who from record to record. I had hoped someone might have a suggestion for a type of record that I hadn't considered, but it sounds like you and Paul agree that the reconstruction of the Evans family in Hartland is my best chance at sorting everyone out. So I will keep on going with it. Thanks again for your idea! Liz Loveland Massachusetts, USA ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sher, Thanks for responding. You wrote in part, "The boarder was in fact her common law husband, but in that area, in that time, people frowned on that relationship and therefore he became the boarder. Perhaps John Evans was her common law husband." I'm guessing that you meant to write John Kinsman rather than John Evans. As I mentioned in a previous email, Ann Evans's examination testimony indicated that at a minimum she had an ongoing sexual relationship with John Kinsman. Whether it was more than that I cannot say from the records I have so far. Either way, the parish expected the child to be chargeable to them. Thanks for the thoughts, Liz Loveland

If it was my family I would extract all of the surname from the parish registers and then do a full family reconstruction from the earliest record down to and past the events you have. This way it will become clearer where everyone fits in. You can then see what happened to both Ann Evans you have found. It is only by doing a FULL reconstruction that you can hope to sort out the information. Large sheets of paper are a must! Marie Australia -----Original Message----- From: Liz Loveland Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 8:54 AM To: devon@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DEV] Tracing mother of an 'illegitimate' child Hi Sher, Thank you for answering. I guess I am still not being clear enough so let me repeat that I have copies of the vital records from the original register pages, not transcriptions. Since I am in Massachusetts, unfortunately going to the North Devon Record Office in person is not feasible for me. In this situation the register page copies have not provided me with additional information. The person recording entries in Hartland at the time seems to have been rather bare-bones about it as there is not always even an occupation listed. With regards to Ann Evans and John Kinsman (the subject of my original post), I have gotten much more information from the bastardy bonds and the mother examinations than I have from the parish register entries. (Yes, I also have copies of the original bonds and examinations.) Liz Loveland Massachusetts, USA ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Liz, I agree with what others have suggested, and which you may have already done, but a few things that at a quick look I haven't spotted mentioned. You may already have tried these too but just in case: 1. while I agree that Ann is probably one of the 2 mentioned bapt in Hartland, I think it is a real possibility she moved out and another in - I have this happening on my family tree (relatively uncommon name, people the same age, I would have guessed the wrong families BUT one lived into the census era, plus the name was locally common). So check for Anns in neighbouring Parishes as well. Your Ann is far more likely to be one of those baptised in Hartland if there weren't any others in neighbouring parishes. Ann Evans from a neighbouring parish could have gained settlement through apprenticeship, or her father may have had settlement there although living elsewhere when Ann was born. (and of course if you find / have found other Ann Evans locally do check the marriage records and censuses; you may be able to rule them out as possibilities) 2. Being Devon the chances are slim, but do look for relations' wills. Did anyone mention their grandson / nephew / great nephew John Kinsman alias Evans? 3. You've clearly looked at some 'parish chest' documents, have you tried the overseers accounts? A quick look at A2A and I think for Hartland they only survive from 1802, but they could still help. They sometimes record names of people to whom payments were being made - and sometimes don't. You mention there being a number of illegitimate Evans children in Hartland. If any died as children and paupers you will probably find the oveerseers paying the burial expenses and if you're very lucky get more info about the mother. Or they could help you putting together a fuller picture of the family in the area (When a priest only recorded 'Joe Bloggs infant' or even just 'Joe Bloggs' in a burial register, you can sometimes get extra info as to which Joe Bloggs it was from the overseers accounts) Teresa On 07/01/2014 23:13, devon-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > From: Liz Loveland<lovelandfamilyhistory@gmail.com> > To:devon@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, 7 January 2014, 17:57 > Subject: [DEV] Tracing mother of an 'illegitimate' child > > > Hi all, > > I am seeking suggestions on tracing the mother of an 'illegitimate' child. > John Kinsman alias Evans was born to Ann Evans in Hartland in 1796 and > baptized at the parish church in Hartland, also in 1796. I have his baptism > record and his bastardy bond and have traced him forward in time through > his long life to his death. The bastardy bond lists the father, John > Kinsman, and the child's exact date of birth. Ann's bastardy bond testimony > indicates that she had an ongoing relationship with the father John at the > time, though it does not specify whether it was exclusively a sexual > relationship and I have found no evidence to date that they ever married. I > located a second bastardy bond with the same father's name, John Kinsman, > and a different mother (Sarah Wakely); that child was born in 1799 and > there seems to only be one local candidate for the father of both children, > as John Kinsman/Kingsman was not a common name in that place and time. > However I have been completely stuck on tracing Ann Evans since discovering > all of this a couple of years ago. > > There are a number of other 'illegitimate' births to women with the surname > Evans in the latter part of the 1700's and the earliest 1800's in Hartland, > including some with mothers named Ann Evans. The North Devon Record Office > told me that that they think it is plausible that all the 'illegitimate' > births to Ann Evanses could be to a single Ann Evans. However there appears > to only be a surviving bastardy bond for one other Evans child (1804, > interestingly specifying "Ann Evans the younger") and the baptism records > for the 'illegitimate' Evans children only list the mothers. The other Ann > Evans bastardy bond doesn't provide anything to indicate whether it is the > same Ann Evans as the mother of John Kinsman alias Evans, and I have found > no records so far that indicate anything specific about Ann Evans herself > (parentage, age, etc). The younger John was placed in a husbandy > apprenticeship at age 8 via the parish so he ceased to live with his mother > at that point (if he was still living with her then), and his baptism and > bastardy bond are the only records I have on him that list any parents at > all. > > I have a hypothesis that the Evans women who were having 'illegitimate' > children in Hartland around the same time may have been related to each > other. But without any documents showing whether any of these things are > true, both North Devon RO's theory and mine will stay in the realm of > only-theories. Does anyone have any suggestions for what I can try next? > > Thank you, > Liz Loveland > Massachusetts, USA

Hi Brian Are you then collecting transcripts of PROB 11 wills? If so I can let you have copies of mine. Jon -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Brian Randell Sent: 07 January 2014 22:28 To: <devon@rootsweb.com> Cc: Brian Randell Subject: Re: [DEV] Devon Wills Hi Tim: On 7 Jan 2014, at 22:22, Tim Treeby (Genealogy) wrote: > So long as you are looking at the right Dataset it definitely looks to > be all PCC Wills, with the actual copy of the will as you would get > from TNA. > As they definitely list one's up to 1858 and looking at the image > gives the actual Will. > The fact that i struggle to actually read the will is a different > matter, but it is there. Check the Devon Wills Project - just in case the will has already been transcribed or abstracted. Cheers Brian -- School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 222 7923 FAX = +44 191 222 8232 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/brian.randell ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I meant any connections to the other members of the Evans family rather than the Kinsman family.  I noticed that in 1841 John Evans is living next door to a William Evans, a carpenter, and next door but one in the other direction from a Charles Evans whose age suggests he is Ann's son baptised 1781.   Ann did baptise a son William at Hartland in 1788 and the 1861 census gives William's birthdate as c1789 although the 1851 census gives the birth date c1793.    My own experience with my ancestors is that they can often be found within a few doors of each other.  Whether this was for mutual support at times of need or whether they passed information about a vacant property by word of mouth, I don't know.  It isn't hard evidence that they are brothers of course and if Ann senior was Ann junior's aunt the group were related anyway.   Joy     ________________________________ From: Liz Loveland <lovelandfamilyhistory@gmail.com> To: devon@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, 8 January 2014, 0:47 Subject: Re: [DEV] Tracing mother of an 'illegitimate' child Hi Joy, Thanks for your very detailed response and suggestions. I understand very well about deaths/burials being important as I did a lot of work on a family that was the only good match for a Scottish ancestor's family of origin and then subsequently found records showing that the family had briefly moved to another parish and that the same-named person I'd thought was my ancestor had died as a child in an epidemic in that other parish. Since then I have always kept at the front of my mind that just because someone seems like a good match, that doesn't mean they are the person I'm seeking. John Kinsman alias Evans named one of his children Charles, which was the name of one of Ann Evans the elder's children. Subsequent generations also used the name Thomas which was another of Ann the elder's children's names. I almost included this information in my second response to Paul, but since they were common given names I wasn't sure it meant anything. None of John Kinsman alias Evans's known children match Elizabeth Evans's children's given names. Unfortunately none of the bastardy bonds I have personally read for Hartland in the late 1700's and earliest 1800's name the child. The two children of John Kinsman have been easiest to identify and trace because in both cases there are an examination and a bastardy bond, with both records naming John Kinsman as the father, and in both cases the mother baptized the child using both parents' surnames, which the child then used themselves. I know it is possible that John Kinsman's father John Kinsman could have been the father, or that a third man named John Kinsman may have been in Hartland at the time and just not left other records that I've found so far, which is why I always try to use phrases like "he's most likely to be the father" and "I believe he probably is." The Evans and Kinsman families don't seem to have been in touch at all after the bastardy bond was issued. John Kinsman alias Evans seems to have been much closer to his wife's family and I have no evidence to date that he ever even saw the Kinsmans at any point after his birth beyond possibly running into each other around the parish. After the bastardy bond and baptism the next record I have for him is his parish apprenticeship when he was age 8, and I'm not even sure if he saw his mother again after that (assuming he was still living with her when he was indentured, which I don't know for sure). Since John Kinsman alias Evans was apprenticed on 6 June 1804 and Ann was still pregnant when she was examined in December 1804, he would have definitely left home before the next child was born, though I agree it still would have been rather odd for the same Ann Evans to name a second child John. But I don't know whether the same Ann gave birth to both children. Since you and Paul both think George and Rebecca Evans are the best candidates for Ann's ancestor, it seems that I have been on the right track in trying to reconstruct all the family relationships and should continue on with my reconstruction work, long and confusing as it may sometimes be. Thanks again for all your ideas! Liz Loveland ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Can anyone suggest how someone in the US can get access to a will in the Devon Record Office? Specifically I am looking for the following from "Estate Duty Office Wills": "Thomas May of Brixham, Devon, 1833, 1078/IRW/M/460". I am trying to find a connection with the Thomas May who was a baker, and was a passenger in the barque "Mary Ann" from London and Plymouth to Australia, departing about 4 February 1833 and arriving in Sydney 15 November 1833. This Thomas had a younger brother Robert who, with wife Mary, departed from London or Plymouth in the "City of Edinburgh" November 1833 and arrived in Sydney March 1834. Thank you. Chuck May Pittsfield Massachusetts, USA ChuckMay@may-engineering.com http://www.may-engineering.com

The chances of finding any supporting documentary evidence is very limited for any relationships at that date, legitimate or otherwise.  Before Civil Registration and Census returns we mostly have to make educated guesses and sometimes those guesses may be wrong.  If there are Evans baptisms in Hartland for girls who could be the mother it seems reasonable to assume that they are prime candidates.  Of course, it is possible that these girls left the parish and others of similar age moved in but there is little likelihood of finding any surviving evidence of this happening.   All you can do is build up as much circumstantial evidence as possible and hope that the jigsaw starts to lock together.   There are two Ann Evans baptisms in Hartland and they could well be aunt and neice.   16 Jan 1759 Hartland, Ann EVANS, parents George and Rebecca https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JWDC-WJX   19 Sep 1779 Hartland, Ann EVANS, mother Elizabeth EVANS She would have been 16/17 in 1796. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NYB3-TFM   George and Rebecca also baptised a daughter Elizabeth in 1755 so she could well be the Elizabeth who is the mother of Ann 1779 and the sister of Ann 1759.   On FindMyPast there are a couple of burials at Hartland of an Ann and Elizabeth Evans whose ages at death fit very well with George and Rebecca's daughters which implies they remained unmarried.   If John's mother was the Ann baptised 1779, what happened to her?   I would plot the family relationships of the Evans family in Hartland, when they died, when and who they married.  Deaths are particulary important, you can think you have found someone and then discover they died a few weeks after birth.  Are the Ann and Elizabeth buried at Hartland likely to be the ones baptised there or are there wives of Evans men who could also be candidates?   Is there any evidence of contact between John Kinsman's descendants and other Evans descendants (witnesses at marriages,  living close together etc.)?  Do the names of John Kinsman Evans's children provide any clues i.e do they reflect those of Ann senior's children or Elizabeth's or neither?   Does the 1804 bastardy bond name the child?  There is a baptism at Hartland 13 Jan 1805 of John Evans, mother Ann.  If this is the Ann Evans and child of the 1804 bastardy bond it seems odd that she named a second son John.  There is a long gap between John Kinsman Evans birth and the previous child but there may have been miscarriages or stillbirths, especially as Ann was getting older.   You mention there was only one John Kinsman but his father was also named John.  Maybe he was the father.   Whichever Ann you decide is the mother, I think they both lead back to George and Rebecca.   Joy       ________________________________ From: Liz Loveland <lovelandfamilyhistory@gmail.com> To: devon@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 7 January 2014, 17:57 Subject: [DEV] Tracing mother of an 'illegitimate' child Hi all, I am seeking suggestions on tracing the mother of an 'illegitimate' child. John Kinsman alias Evans was born to Ann Evans in Hartland in 1796 and baptized at the parish church in Hartland, also in 1796. I have his baptism record and his bastardy bond and have traced him forward in time through his long life to his death. The bastardy bond lists the father, John Kinsman, and the child's exact date of birth. Ann's bastardy bond testimony indicates that she had an ongoing relationship with the father John at the time, though it does not specify whether it was exclusively a sexual relationship and I have found no evidence to date that they ever married. I located a second bastardy bond with the same father's name, John Kinsman, and a different mother (Sarah Wakely); that child was born in 1799 and there seems to only be one local candidate for the father of both children, as John Kinsman/Kingsman was not a common name in that place and time. However I have been completely stuck on tracing Ann Evans since discovering all of this a couple of years ago. There are a number of other 'illegitimate' births to women with the surname Evans in the latter part of the 1700's and the earliest 1800's in Hartland, including some with mothers named Ann Evans. The North Devon Record Office told me that that they think it is plausible that all the 'illegitimate' births to Ann Evanses could be to a single Ann Evans. However there appears to only be a surviving bastardy bond for one other Evans child (1804, interestingly specifying "Ann Evans the younger") and the baptism records for the 'illegitimate' Evans children only list the mothers. The other Ann Evans bastardy bond doesn't provide anything to indicate whether it is the same Ann Evans as the mother of John Kinsman alias Evans, and I have found no records so far that indicate anything specific about Ann Evans herself (parentage, age, etc). The younger John was placed in a husbandy apprenticeship at age 8 via the parish so he ceased to live with his mother at that point (if he was still living with her then), and his baptism and bastardy bond are the only records I have on him that list any parents at all. I have a hypothesis that the Evans women who were having 'illegitimate' children in Hartland around the same time may have been related to each other. But without any documents showing whether any of these things are true, both North Devon RO's theory and mine will stay in the realm of only-theories. Does anyone have any suggestions for what I can try next? Thank you, Liz Loveland Massachusetts, USA -- Liz Loveland lovelandfamilyhistory@gmail.com Blog transcribing a Victorian diary: http://addiessojourn.wordpress.com/ Genealogy & history blog: http://adventuresingenealogy.wordpress.com/ ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Tim: On 7 Jan 2014, at 22:22, Tim Treeby (Genealogy) wrote: > So long as you are looking at the right Dataset it definitely looks to > be all PCC Wills, with the actual copy of the will as you would get from > TNA. > As they definitely list one's up to 1858 and looking at the image gives > the actual Will. > The fact that i struggle to actually read the will is a different > matter, but it is there. Check the Devon Wills Project - just in case the will has already been transcribed or abstracted. Cheers Brian -- School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 222 7923 FAX = +44 191 222 8232 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/brian.randell

Hi Wayne: The Totnes wills were amongst those destroyed in Exeter by the air raid during WW2. Worse, unlike the case with the other Devon probate courts (at Exeter and Barnstaple), no listings of the Totnes wills even had been made before, and survived, the war. Nevertheless the Devon Wills Project has managed to pull together almost nine thousand records relating to Totnes wills (mainly abstracts), including over a hundred full transcripts, and a handful of original wills. Cheers Brian On 7 Jan 2014, at 18:24, Wayne Shepheard wrote: > Mike, > > I did a search for my family surname, without specifying any particular area, and found many wills within the gaps you stated. The same thing happened for a search of just wills in Devon. While there may be some gaps, it does appear the list is fairly complete. > > What I did not find were wills that I have for that period that were proved at Totnes. > > Wayne Shepheard > Cornwood OPC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael J Hulme > Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 10:41 AM > To: devon@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DEV] Devon Wills > > Hello Tim > > Thank you for this information but looking on the Ancestry site my > understanding is that they only have: > > Administrations in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 1581-1619 and > 1649-1660 > > Wills Proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 1383-1629, > 1653-1660, 1671-1675 & 1686-1700. > > This leaves many gaps especially for Wills from 1700 to 1858. > > Please correct me if I have missed something here. > > The full set are of course available on The National Archives web site. > > Mike > Shropshire, UK > __________________________________________ > > On 07/01/2014 12:32, Tim Treeby (Genealogy) wrote: >> Just in case no one has seen, Ancestry now has copies of PCC Wills, so >> any one with an Ancestry sub should be able to see a copy of any PCC Will. >> >> Tim Treeby > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 222 7923 FAX = +44 191 222 8232 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/brian.randell

So long as you are looking at the right Dataset it definitely looks to be all PCC Wills, with the actual copy of the will as you would get from TNA. As they definitely list one's up to 1858 and looking at the image gives the actual Will. The fact that i struggle to actually read the will is a different matter, but it is there. Tim Treeby DFHS 13926

Liz, Unless there is something lurking in the parish chest in the Records Office (which I doubt) then you are left with a "majority verdict". Have you searched http://nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/ I assume the bastardy bond indicates Ann's place of settlement as Hartland. This means either her father (or husband) had right of settlement. Have you found any removal orders? Looking at Familysearch, there only seems to be one Evans family in the parish from the beginning of the 18c. I would suggest you draw out the family tree, including deaths and confirm this from the registers. Short of tracing descendants and DNA testing, this may be the nearest you will get. Back from the 18c may be even a greater problem, Evans is a Welsh nape and Wales is just across the channel. Cheers Paul

Hi, I have been checking out the PCC Wills on Ancestry today and the actual Clerk's copies are there to see and presumably download including several for my Devon ancestors. Many of these Wills I have downloaded for a fee from TNA over the years. Best wishes, Jean Hodges DFHS15110 -----Original Message----- From: devon-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:devon-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Brian Randell Sent: 07 January 2014 21:12 To: <devon@rootsweb.com> Cc: Brian Randell Subject: Re: [DEV] Devon Wills Hi Jean: Well said! Cheers Brian On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:47, Jean Harris wrote: > > HI all > >> From what I read in these two emails it seems that Ancestry has listed the Index Library volumes. These are INDEXES only and are NOT copies of the PCC Wills and Admins. > > These Index Library volumes are available in any major City or University library and we have them in our Toronto Reference Library. Some years ago I used these 11+ volumes to extract all of the Devonians I saw there and sent off the results to Brian Randell for GenukiDevon where they are to this day thus making them making them available to all. So why not go there first?? > > My explanatory note (also included @ GenukiDevon) will tell you where you can get copies and the source I used for my many preinternet years was our local Family History LDS Library. The LDS has filmed the actual PCC wills and by using these Index Library volumes I was able find the required register and folio number for some of my own people who had had the misfortune (or good luck for me as it turned out) to die outside of Devon and the jurisdiction of the Diocese of Exeter. From those LDS films I was able to get photocopies to take home to read in peace and quiet! > > This is where you will find all the Devonians listed in these Index Library volumes: > > PCC Wills > http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonWills/index.html > > PCC Admins > http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonAdministrations/index.html > > Incidentally, all of these Devonians are included in the Devon Wills Project for any names of your own people. Always remember too that you should check for variants in the spelling of their surnames as, in those olden times, names were often written as they sounded to the listener and not as we know the standard spellings of today. > > For the PCC wills from 1700-1749 I have not yet found an index but those of later years 1750 to (I think) 1800 were extracted by Anthony Camp of the Society of Genealogists, published many years ago and they too must also be available in City/University libraries. Due to our tremendous loss of old wills, the Estate Duty Office in London supplied copies of their EDO wills of later years to the Devon Record Office. > >> From all of this you can see that there are lots of places to check to find indexes of the old PCC Wills and Admins but the short cut for all of these published indexes and other places is the GenukiDevon Devon Wills Project which should be the very FIRST port of call for old Devon wills. There are all sorts of previously unknown sources having transcripts or even original wills that are being found by volunteers looking for them all over the place including the Internet and, as they are being found, they are included in this Devon Wills Project. > > Jean Harris in a VERY cold Toronto, Ontario > > > On Jan 7, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Michael J Hulme wrote: > >> Hello Tim >> >> Thank you for this information but looking on the Ancestry site my >> understanding is that they only have: >> >> Administrations in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 1581-1619 and >> 1649-1660 >> >> Wills Proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 1383-1629, >> 1653-1660, 1671-1675 & 1686-1700. >> >> This leaves many gaps especially for Wills from 1700 to 1858. >> >> Please correct me if I have missed something here. >> >> The full set are of course available on The National Archives web site. >> >> Mike >> Shropshire, UK >> __________________________________________ >> >> On 07/01/2014 12:32, Tim Treeby (Genealogy) wrote: >>> Just in case no one has seen, Ancestry now has copies of PCC Wills, so >>> any one with an Ancestry sub should be able to see a copy of any PCC Will. >>> >>> Tim Treeby >> ------------------------------------------ >> The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >> ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) >> and >> the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >> List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 222 7923 FAX = +44 191 222 8232 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/brian.randell ------------------------------------------ The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) and the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jean: Well said! Cheers Brian On 7 Jan 2014, at 19:47, Jean Harris wrote: > > HI all > >> From what I read in these two emails it seems that Ancestry has listed the Index Library volumes. These are INDEXES only and are NOT copies of the PCC Wills and Admins. > > These Index Library volumes are available in any major City or University library and we have them in our Toronto Reference Library. Some years ago I used these 11+ volumes to extract all of the Devonians I saw there and sent off the results to Brian Randell for GenukiDevon where they are to this day thus making them making them available to all. So why not go there first?? > > My explanatory note (also included @ GenukiDevon) will tell you where you can get copies and the source I used for my many preinternet years was our local Family History LDS Library. The LDS has filmed the actual PCC wills and by using these Index Library volumes I was able find the required register and folio number for some of my own people who had had the misfortune (or good luck for me as it turned out) to die outside of Devon and the jurisdiction of the Diocese of Exeter. From those LDS films I was able to get photocopies to take home to read in peace and quiet! > > This is where you will find all the Devonians listed in these Index Library volumes: > > PCC Wills > http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonWills/index.html > > PCC Admins > http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonAdministrations/index.html > > Incidentally, all of these Devonians are included in the Devon Wills Project for any names of your own people. Always remember too that you should check for variants in the spelling of their surnames as, in those olden times, names were often written as they sounded to the listener and not as we know the standard spellings of today. > > For the PCC wills from 1700-1749 I have not yet found an index but those of later years 1750 to (I think) 1800 were extracted by Anthony Camp of the Society of Genealogists, published many years ago and they too must also be available in City/University libraries. Due to our tremendous loss of old wills, the Estate Duty Office in London supplied copies of their EDO wills of later years to the Devon Record Office. > >> From all of this you can see that there are lots of places to check to find indexes of the old PCC Wills and Admins but the short cut for all of these published indexes and other places is the GenukiDevon Devon Wills Project which should be the very FIRST port of call for old Devon wills. There are all sorts of previously unknown sources having transcripts or even original wills that are being found by volunteers looking for them all over the place including the Internet and, as they are being found, they are included in this Devon Wills Project. > > Jean Harris in a VERY cold Toronto, Ontario > > > On Jan 7, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Michael J Hulme wrote: > >> Hello Tim >> >> Thank you for this information but looking on the Ancestry site my >> understanding is that they only have: >> >> Administrations in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 1581-1619 and >> 1649-1660 >> >> Wills Proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 1383-1629, >> 1653-1660, 1671-1675 & 1686-1700. >> >> This leaves many gaps especially for Wills from 1700 to 1858. >> >> Please correct me if I have missed something here. >> >> The full set are of course available on The National Archives web site. >> >> Mike >> Shropshire, UK >> __________________________________________ >> >> On 07/01/2014 12:32, Tim Treeby (Genealogy) wrote: >>> Just in case no one has seen, Ancestry now has copies of PCC Wills, so >>> any one with an Ancestry sub should be able to see a copy of any PCC Will. >>> >>> Tim Treeby >> ------------------------------------------ >> The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon >> ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) >> and >> the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) >> List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------------------ > The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon > ( http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ ) > and > the Devon FHS (http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/ ) > List archive for Devon can be found at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/DEVON/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEVON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 222 7923 FAX = +44 191 222 8232 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/brian.randell