Dick, Gabi's information has many key ingredients for you to explain how and why certain emigrations took place. You probably have to understand Baden of the time period of your ancestor's emigration. Crops and crop failures, famine, economics, pre-revolution, revolution, post-revolution, taxation, war reparations and a bunch of other reasons. My own emigrant Badische ancestor was sent to America with his family and the Town paid the costs. His Mill had burned to the ground and financially his family was desperate. However, he was not alone as the Town sent a number of families at the same time. This was done by many towns in the 1850s. Families were shipped to America, to Australia and to Africa. Baden was a hot-bed of the 1848/49 Revolution. Many of the revolutionaries were imprisoned at Rastatt. The Baden area was taxed heavily to pay for the Prussian aid used in crushing the revolution. For an idea of Baden of this time period perhaps < http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/~Chastain/ac/baden.htm > or < http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume10/ > might be of interest. To emigrate normally required permission. A person would need to prove that he could afford to emigrate. He must be of sufficient age and not of specific or needed value to the town. He must not shirk his military duties. There were many requirements which if the individual could not pass, he probably would have disappeared in the middle of the night and emigrated illegally. None of this is your answer but maybe added to Gabi's information we may be leading up to some thoughts for you. An ancestor of my daughter-in-law, with that ancestor not from the Ortenau but from an area in northern Baden and from a later time period than shortly after the Revolution attempt, was recorded (as below) in his Town's records when he applied to emigrate.....the report as translated into English: "Report of municipal council of Oberschefflenz. "As to the request of the farmer Gottlieb Kühner for getting a passport to emigrate for America. "The citizen and farmer Gottlieb Kühner from here, 36 years old, married and father of 8 children, protestantic, asks for a passport to emigrate with his family for America. "The wife Christina Kühner, née Walter, Luise Kühner 13 years, Lina Kühner 12, Emma Kühner 10, Adolfine Christina Kühner, Frieda Kühner 6, Karl Friedrich Kühner 4 1/2, Gottlieb Kühner 2, and Alice Kühner 7 months. "The petitioner has own money enough to emigrate, needed never aid, it is no manpower shortage and no loss assets. "Because the petitioner has a good reputation, the municipal council has no reservations to give him the passport for him and his family. "The petitioner says that he owns 12000 hfl to export to America." "Decision: "1. Giving permission "2. Entry in the list of emigrates "3. Message to the Municipal Council "4. Issue the passport for 6 months "5. Entry Nr. 75" -------------------------------------- Dick, Good reasons to leave town (and not a country-western song), born of parents who were not married little chance of any inheritance too many siblings and too little a farming area escape military service escape punishment from revolutionary action impoverished looking for a better life and everyone on this List could give you more and better reasons than I can. Think of the idea that our ancestors were descended from Serfs held in Fiefdom to someone in a higher position in life and our ancestors dreamed of America as Utopia, a panacea compared to their daily troubles. If they could afford and could pass the requirements, they emigrated legally completing all the requirements. If they could not afford and felt they could not pass all the requirements, they slipped off into their trip to the world across the ocean. djweber [email protected] ------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Fischbach" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 1:21 PM Subject: [Ortenau] Emigration > DJ, > > In the recent exchange of messages re emigration database, reference was > made to 'legal' and 'illegal' emigration - some law or code apparently > required 'permission' to emigrate. Permission from whom? Why did they > need permission? Was it expensive to get permission? Was the regulation > enforced and, if so, by whom? > > I'm confident that many listers have answers to these questions; > regretfully, I do not - but I sure would like to learn more about this > matter. > > Dick >

Danke DJ erklärst Du super! Hallo Tony, hallo Dick Ich versuche das jetzt gar nicht in Englisch. Bin da einfach nicht mehr fit genug. meine Vorfahren sind in die USA ausgewandert weil sie badische Revolutionäre waren. (Philipp, Sigmund, Anton Rendler) ich habe zuhause die Raab-Datei. In dieser sind etwa 5000 Revolutionäre aufgelistet. Ich kann gerne nach Namen schauen. Viele sind damals nach Amerika "abgehauen" um einer Gefängnisstrafe zu entgehen - oder nach der Gefängnisstrafe (wie mein Sigmund) weil sie mit diesem Land nichts mehr zu tun haben wollten. Ich habe bei dem emigrations-projekt in Offenburg mitgeholfen, wir haben versucht "Alle" Auswanderer zu finden, also nicht nur die offiziellen. Ich habe in Auswanderungsakten tatsächlich auch den Fall gehabt dass Auswanderungswillige NICHT gehen durften, weil sie der GEmeinde dienlich waren, weil sie notwendig waren und nicht so leicht zu ersetzen waren wenn sie gegangen sind. Gefunden haben wir illegale Auswanderer vor allem über die Suche in den Kirchenbüchern. Die Pfarrer haben oft hinter die Namen einen Vermerk angebracht. "Ausgewandert nach Amerika". Oder aber in Bürgerbüchern etc. Wer auswandern wollte, der wurde in der Zeitung veröffentlicht, zur "Schuldenliquidation" . So hatten alle die Möglichkeit evtl Ansprüche anzumelden. Ein Team von uns hat die Zeitungen "durchgearbeitet" und die Namen notiert. Obwohl diese Leute ja wohl einen "Antrag" gestellt hatten, war er nicht im Archiv aufbewahrt worden. D.h. es sind auch nicht alle die "mit" Erlaubnis gegangen sind, archiviert worden. auf der Seite www.emigration-offenburg.de sind die Auswanderer drin, die "wir" damals gefunden haben. - Nur die Offenburger eben ( mit den Ortschaften drumherum) auf der LAD-Seite um die es hier auch schon ging, sind meines Wissens nur diejenigen Auswanderer über die es eine Akte in den Archiven gibt. Liebe Grüsse Gabi ----- Original Message ----- From: "djweber" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [Ortenau] Emigration > Dick, > > Gabi's information has many key ingredients for you to explain how and why > certain emigrations took place. You probably have to understand Baden of > the time period of your ancestor's emigration. Crops and crop failures, > famine, economics, pre-revolution, revolution, post-revolution, taxation, > war reparations and a bunch of other reasons. > > My own emigrant Badische ancestor was sent to America with his family and > the Town paid the costs. His Mill had burned to the ground and > financially > his family was desperate. However, he was not alone as the Town sent a > number of families at the same time. This was done by many towns in the > 1850s. Families were shipped to America, to Australia and to Africa. > > Baden was a hot-bed of the 1848/49 Revolution. Many of the > revolutionaries > were imprisoned at Rastatt. The Baden area was taxed heavily to pay for > the > Prussian aid used in crushing the revolution. For an idea of Baden of > this > time period perhaps < http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/~Chastain/ac/baden.htm > > or > < http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume10/ > might be of > interest. > > To emigrate normally required permission. A person would need to prove > that > he could afford to emigrate. He must be of sufficient age and not of > specific or needed value to the town. He must not shirk his military > duties. There were many requirements which if the individual could not > pass, he probably would have disappeared in the middle of the night and > emigrated illegally. > > None of this is your answer but maybe added to Gabi's information we may > be > leading up to some thoughts for you. > > An ancestor of my daughter-in-law, with that ancestor not from the Ortenau > but from an area in northern Baden and from a later time period than > shortly > after the Revolution attempt, was recorded (as below) in his Town's > records > when he applied to emigrate.....the report as translated into English: > "Report of municipal council of Oberschefflenz. > "As to the request of the farmer Gottlieb Kühner for getting a passport to > emigrate for America. > "The citizen and farmer Gottlieb Kühner from here, 36 years old, married > and > father of 8 children, protestantic, asks for a passport to emigrate with > his > family for America. > "The wife Christina Kühner, née Walter, Luise Kühner 13 years, Lina Kühner > 12, Emma Kühner 10, Adolfine Christina Kühner, Frieda Kühner 6, Karl > Friedrich Kühner 4 1/2, Gottlieb Kühner 2, and Alice Kühner 7 months. > "The petitioner has own money enough to emigrate, needed never aid, it is > no > manpower shortage and no loss assets. > "Because the petitioner has a good reputation, the municipal council has > no > reservations to give him the passport for him and his family. > "The petitioner says that he owns 12000 hfl to export to America." > "Decision: > "1. Giving permission > "2. Entry in the list of emigrates > "3. Message to the Municipal Council > "4. Issue the passport for 6 months > "5. Entry Nr. 75" > -------------------------------------- > Dick, Good reasons to leave town (and not a country-western song), > born of parents who were not married > little chance of any inheritance > too many siblings and too little a farming area > escape military service > escape punishment from revolutionary action > impoverished > looking for a better life > > and everyone on this List could give you more and better reasons than I > can. > > Think of the idea that our ancestors were descended from Serfs held in > Fiefdom to someone in a higher position in life and our ancestors dreamed > of > America as Utopia, a panacea compared to their daily troubles. If they > could afford and could pass the requirements, they emigrated legally > completing all the requirements. If they could not afford and felt they > could not pass all the requirements, they slipped off into their trip to > the > world across the ocean. > > djweber > [email protected] > ------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Fischbach" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 1:21 PM > Subject: [Ortenau] Emigration > > >> DJ, >> >> In the recent exchange of messages re emigration database, reference was >> made to 'legal' and 'illegal' emigration - some law or code apparently >> required 'permission' to emigrate. Permission from whom? Why did they >> need permission? Was it expensive to get permission? Was the regulation >> enforced and, if so, by whom? >> >> I'm confident that many listers have answers to these questions; >> regretfully, I do not - but I sure would like to learn more about this >> matter. >> >> Dick >> > > > > ==== DEU-BAD-ORTENAU Mailing List ==== > < http://www.heavens-above.com/countries.asp > can be searched for > neighboring towns if you fear that one of your ancestors moved to or from > your searched town. > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > ___________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 1GB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de