Tom, You are probably correct with the thought about elevation. If Wendelin's ISP and Rootsweb ever start talking to each other again, we may get an exact answer. I know that there are many such Nieder and Ober towns in Germany. Probably the Nieder is on lower ground than the Ober. With lands rolling down to the rivers and to the seas, it might be possible that the Nieder town name could be used for the town closer to that water location which could be the cause of my confusion. As to "Nieder" toward the sea and in lower elevation, the only possible example I could think of would be the Niedersachsen Federal State. Lower Saxony reaches the North Sea but the old province of Sachsen and the current Sachsen States are far to the southeast. The upper and lower was something that from the back of my mind seemed to be a comment I had heard once in a genealogical lecture long ago. The elevation sounds much easier to understand than the idea of to and from flowing water. I know that if Ober and Unter are used together for towns, that the Ober is the "upper"/north town and Unter is the "lower"/south town. I have a daughter-in-law who has a line of ancestry from the Schefflenz area of Baden, well north of the Ortenau near Mosbach. There, from north to south on one road, are the towns of Oberschefflenz, Mittelschefflenz and Unterschefflenz. An interesting side comment about that area is that no Familienbuch seems to have been completed but for Oberschefflenz a book on the homes and people who lived in those homes (Häuser und Leute von Oberschefflenz) was published about 1998. So hopefully Rootsweb will soon again accept Wendelin's ISP. djweber [email protected] ------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Fitzsimmons" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: [Ortenau] Nieder and Ober > dj: > > I wonder if the words Nieder and Ober might be translated as "upper" > and "lower". The Ordnance Survey in England and Ireland mapped the > countries here and there are many instances of townlands and other > places named Upper This and Lower This. As you note, the directions > don't seem to come into the reason for the Upper and Lower. Maybe as > you say, it has something to do with being on a waterway, or > otherwise connected with elevation. > > Tom Fitzsimmons.