Alicia, Some thoughts..... As both Robert and Philippine are listed consecutively on the Manifest, the heavy percentage is that they were married before they left Baden. A further clue maybe if the ship were of a German, French, English or American line. >From my database of ancestors which I have searched Robert is not a particularly common Germanic name. To be exact the only Robert I have was born as Karl Robert. Do you know the second name of your Robert? Perhaps he reversed his names or picked an English sounding name of Robert after he arrived in America. The fact that Philippine traveled legally does not match with Robert traveling illegally, although this is possible. For 1853, the Auswanderer list offers seven males with the surname Heitz who applied for emigration permits. You can check this at the English languge tab of < http://www.auswanderer-bw.de/sixcms/detail.php?template=a_artikel&id=6591&sprache=en&PHPSESSID= >. One of those seven is a Norbert Heitz from Friesenheim of the then district of Oberschopfheim, Auswanderer identification 233234. Philippine Schaub is identification number 225151 with her last place of residence as being Hohberg in the then district of Niederschopfheim. (Unfortuately these additional towns bring the fear of additional Church Register investigations.) I am not saying that Robert was Norbert, merely that Robert was not, in my searches, a very common Germanic name and that perhaps Robert was not your Robert's original name. I do not know the numbering system used in this Auswanderer system which is a compilation of record obtained by Hans Glatzle for Württemberg and Wolfgang Müller for Baden. I do know that limited information has been added in the past several years after it was identified that the Baden portion included about 200,000 names. However, I would think that if Robert and Philippine were married at the time they requested the right to emigrate that only one number would be used for both. I admit I did not check the other six Heitz males of the 1853 records to see their code numbers. Also, Philippine might have requested the right to emigrate just prior to the marriage and Robert after the marriage. Welfare is not a new word or new activity. A Germanic town practiced welfare for the support of those town members who were not able to mentally or physically support themselves. The early 1850s however brought heavy costs on the towns and funds for such aid to certain townspeople was difficult to obtain. In the years prior to this time, there had been years of drought, some famine but even worse was the attempted revolutions of 1848-1849. For a short time a Republic of Baden had been proclaimed but with the aid of Prussian troops the revolution was put down. The financial result, though, was heavy charges from the Prussian government for the use of their troops. Taxes were increased multiple times and funds for town welfare were less than limited. It was necessary for the potential bride groom to prove that he had the financial wherewithall to marry and support his bride without the need of town aid. A similar need of proof was when an man requested a permit for emigration. While the questions varied from town to town, you could expect that it was necessary that the male petitioner would request from the Town Council a "passport" for a period of time, perhaps six months, for himself and his family and he would need to prove that he had enough money to emigrate, that he had never needed town aid, that he would not be a manpower or financial shortage to the town, that he had a good reputation and had no debts due to any local individuals. The Town Council would give their approval or their denial. A second name for Robert? djweber djwdjw@ix.netcom.com (Any family tales that Robert and Philippine married one day and left for America the next day?) ------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "A McAdam" <amcadam@msn.com> To: "djweber" <djwdjw@ix.netcom.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [Ortenau] Heitz Family - Schutterwald > Your scenario is very interesting. I do have the ship Manifest for Robert > and Philippine, and you are correct about the location of their names. > Robert's name is listed first, followed on the next line by Philippine's > name. Does this mean that Robert and Philippine were, in fact, already > married prior to their emigration? > > I am curious about your comment regarding adequate funds for marriage. > Could you elaborate on that a bit? Was this some sort of set fee imposed > by the individual towns, or was it consistent throughout all of Baden? > > Also, what would prevent an individual from obtaining a permit to > emigrate? > > Thanks so much for your help. > Alicia >