Dear Wendelin and everyone who participates on this list. This has been the most informative and helpful of groups. I just wanted to share that now if you have access to www.footnote.com you can add comments to the 1860 US Census. The could be helpful to those of us that had families leave Baden prior to 1860. I just added some comments to my Schwendemann, Ochs, and Kraft connections thant settled in Boston. best, Karen

Carol: I am sure that there were other places in U.S. but I know for sure that quite a few Urloffeners settled in St. Charles, MO - Jockersts included. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Rogers" <homealot@earthlink.net> To: <deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [Ortenau] Sauer and/or Widemer > Thanks, Dan. I appreciate you sending a "cc" to the Urloffen list. As > for > St. Charles County, I've heard that there were "Offenburg" area towns that > had emigrants moving there, and the person who told me might even be > reading > this as a Lister! However, I've never gone that route as my German > ancestors all immigrated straight to Ste. Genevieve County. Where did the > Urloffen Jockerst/Joggerst/Jokerst emigrants settle? As far back as you > can > take them in records, are they still in Urloffen or did they have origins > in > other towns? > > I've done and am still in the process of studying that/those surname(s): > > 1)in Bohlsbach where my Jokerst line was from and the name is very > prevalent, > 2)in Windschlag where a line of Ste. Genevieve "Joggerst" emigrated from, > 3)Joggerst in Weier that also connect, > 4)most recently Buhl where some of these three towns of Jokerst tie into. > > Earlier census in the U.S. usually show that surname most prominently in > Ste. Genevieve County, then later spill over into St. Louis - though also > seen in New York, New Jersey, New Orleans, and Illinois - possibly in > other > states from 1920 forward. Too bad records don't go far enough back as we > might be able to find when/where the name changed spellings - if in fact > they are all one and the same surname. I've thus far seen a separation of > spelling in lines, though not uncommonly mispelled within records. I will > look through the family sheets I have and see if any of the Jokerst have > origins in Urloffen and send them on your way - if you are interested. > > Carol > > -----Original Message----- > From: deu-bad-ortenau-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:deu-bad-ortenau-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Dan Bravard > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 6:40 PM > To: deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com > Cc: St Charles Mailing List; Urloffen Mail List > Subject: Re: [Ortenau] Sauer and/or Widemer > > > Carol: > > There is a mailing list for Urloffen-descended and for St. Charles County, > MO. researchers, as well which I am cc'ing. I am wondering if there is > anyone who might be able to help as well. with your questions. For what > it > is worth I have a Jockerst/Jokerst/Joggerst line as well from Urloffen > which > I have researched extensively (but not exhaustively). > > Dan Bravard > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carol Rogers" <homealot@earthlink.net> > To: <deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 4:00 PM > Subject: [Ortenau] Sauer and/or Widemer > > >> Hello again, >> >> I'm back after a break from the List and very recently discovered a >> Joseph >> E. Sauer that purchased government land in 1853 in Ste. Genevieve, >> Missouri, >> one plot being right next to Lawrence "Jokest". Having Sauer ancestry in >> Appenweier, I did some research on this individual to find him in Ste. >> Genevieve in 1860 and 1870 census, but in St. Michael, Madison Co., >> Missouri, in 1880 - but in Brazeau, Perry Co., Missouri, in 1850. On a >> hunch, I found his marriages and some of the older children's baptismal >> records in St. Joseph's Church, Apple Creek, Perry County, where I found >> his >> parents to be Stephan Sauer and Legard Ernst from possibly a misspelled >> version of Renchen, for which town I found in a brother, Anselm's >> marriage >> record to Mariannam Laible/Leible, son of Vincent Laible and Rosalie >> Widemer >> from what I think is misspelling of Urlofen. "Anselmum" was listed born >> 16 >> April 1827, and Mariannam was listed born Jun 1829. Not as much info was >> listed in Joseph E. Sauer's marriage to Mary Ann Ponder, d/o Laurence >> Ponder >> and M.A. Schrempp. There was also another Sauer family in Apple Creek at >> that same time, but that family is listed from a town in Prussia. Is >> anyone >> studying this Sauer line? I'm wondering what made Joseph E. decide to >> move >> from Perry County to Ste. Genevieve, unless he previously knew some >> families >> from towns north of Offenburg that immigrated to Ste. Genevieve. >> >> Carol Rogers >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DEU-BAD-ORTENAU-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Hi Maurine, I don't know if you still can buy a copy of the Dundenheim kinship book. Maybe our Dundenheim researchers will tell where they have bought their copy (town hall?). I don't expect any reprinting in the near future... - Wendelin On Thu, 8 May 2008 08:30:05 -0700 "LeBlanc" <leblanc@outreachinternet.com> wrote: > Wendelin, > > There is a man in France whom I have been communicating with that > wants to purchase the kinship book for Dundenheim. Would you please > advise me if it is possible to purchase the book at this time? If so > please let me know the address and price and I will give him that > information. Thank you in advance! > > Maurine

DJ, Do you know if Josef was originally from Urloffen? I believe you already know about the "original" JOGGERST in Windschlag. Franz Martin was 1st married to Maria Ursula Litterst, who died about 3 months after Joannes Martin was born in 1712. He then married Anna Maria "Sur", probably sometime before their first child was born in July, 1714, but I have no record of the marriage. They had nine children, but only the oldest and youngest married and had children there. Of the male sons with no records of marriages or deaths, are Joannes (1715), Michael (1717), twins Jacob and Laurent (1720). Carol -----Original Message----- From: deu-bad-ortenau-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:deu-bad-ortenau-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of djwdjw@ix.netcom.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:22 AM To: deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com Subject: [Ortenau] Jockerst/Jokerst/Joggerst, etc Dan, Carol, anyone.... If your family search includes as a side-relative the Josef Joggerest who died at Urloffen in 1752 and was married to Maria Magdalena Saur,I have picked up some details on the wife as she fits into my (limited and confused) Urloffen Sauer chase. djweber djwdjw@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEU-BAD-ORTENAU-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for your response, Wendelin. I forwarded what you wrote to my contact. He lives in Paris and is connected through my Fassler and Derendinger families so am trying to help him out as much as I can. As said before.....we truly appreciate your being there for us. Maurine

Carol, You have hit on something which should be very important to every family genealogist….why did our emigrant-ancestor settle where he did. I have tried to figure out the whys of my ancestors and some were quite simple, they followed someone, not always a relative, (with some variations) to their new home. My Sauer ancestor is still confusing. There were somewhat distant relatives in both the Buffalo and the Ontario Peninsula areas but my family settled in Cleveland, Ohio. I do have three guesses; a Deichelbohrer family also sent by the town of Grossweier at the same time stopped in Cleveland as they had some familial relation there and the Sauer(s) followed, at the time Ohio was the largest wine producing state in the U.S. and in the first city directories after the Sauer family arrived, Landelin Saur (with some terrible misspellings) was identified as a Vine Dresser or the family with all their children merely ran out of transportation money on their way to farm land in Indiana, Illinois or Missouri. djweber djwdjw@ix.netcom.com

Dan, Carol, anyone.... If your family search includes as a side-relative the Josef Joggerest who died at Urloffen in 1752 and was married to Maria Magdalena Saur,I have picked up some details on the wife as she fits into my (limited and confused) Urloffen Sauer chase. djweber djwdjw@ix.netcom.com

Wendelin, There is a man in France whom I have been communicating with that wants to purchase the kinship book for Dundenheim. Would you please advise me if it is possible to purchase the book at this time? If so please let me know the address and price and I will give him that information. Thank you in advance! Maurine

Carol: There is a mailing list for Urloffen-descended and for St. Charles County, MO. researchers, as well which I am cc'ing. I am wondering if there is anyone who might be able to help as well. with your questions. For what it is worth I have a Jockerst/Jokerst/Joggerst line as well from Urloffen which I have researched extensively (but not exhaustively). Dan Bravard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Rogers" <homealot@earthlink.net> To: <deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 4:00 PM Subject: [Ortenau] Sauer and/or Widemer > Hello again, > > I'm back after a break from the List and very recently discovered a Joseph > E. Sauer that purchased government land in 1853 in Ste. Genevieve, > Missouri, > one plot being right next to Lawrence "Jokest". Having Sauer ancestry in > Appenweier, I did some research on this individual to find him in Ste. > Genevieve in 1860 and 1870 census, but in St. Michael, Madison Co., > Missouri, in 1880 - but in Brazeau, Perry Co., Missouri, in 1850. On a > hunch, I found his marriages and some of the older children's baptismal > records in St. Joseph's Church, Apple Creek, Perry County, where I found > his > parents to be Stephan Sauer and Legard Ernst from possibly a misspelled > version of Renchen, for which town I found in a brother, Anselm's marriage > record to Mariannam Laible/Leible, son of Vincent Laible and Rosalie > Widemer > from what I think is misspelling of Urlofen. "Anselmum" was listed born > 16 > April 1827, and Mariannam was listed born Jun 1829. Not as much info was > listed in Joseph E. Sauer's marriage to Mary Ann Ponder, d/o Laurence > Ponder > and M.A. Schrempp. There was also another Sauer family in Apple Creek at > that same time, but that family is listed from a town in Prussia. Is > anyone > studying this Sauer line? I'm wondering what made Joseph E. decide to > move > from Perry County to Ste. Genevieve, unless he previously knew some > families > from towns north of Offenburg that immigrated to Ste. Genevieve. > > Carol Rogers > > >

Thanks, Dan. I appreciate you sending a "cc" to the Urloffen list. As for St. Charles County, I've heard that there were "Offenburg" area towns that had emigrants moving there, and the person who told me might even be reading this as a Lister! However, I've never gone that route as my German ancestors all immigrated straight to Ste. Genevieve County. Where did the Urloffen Jockerst/Joggerst/Jokerst emigrants settle? As far back as you can take them in records, are they still in Urloffen or did they have origins in other towns? I've done and am still in the process of studying that/those surname(s): 1)in Bohlsbach where my Jokerst line was from and the name is very prevalent, 2)in Windschlag where a line of Ste. Genevieve "Joggerst" emigrated from, 3)Joggerst in Weier that also connect, 4)most recently Buhl where some of these three towns of Jokerst tie into. Earlier census in the U.S. usually show that surname most prominently in Ste. Genevieve County, then later spill over into St. Louis - though also seen in New York, New Jersey, New Orleans, and Illinois - possibly in other states from 1920 forward. Too bad records don't go far enough back as we might be able to find when/where the name changed spellings - if in fact they are all one and the same surname. I've thus far seen a separation of spelling in lines, though not uncommonly mispelled within records. I will look through the family sheets I have and see if any of the Jokerst have origins in Urloffen and send them on your way - if you are interested. Carol -----Original Message----- From: deu-bad-ortenau-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:deu-bad-ortenau-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Dan Bravard Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 6:40 PM To: deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com Cc: St Charles Mailing List; Urloffen Mail List Subject: Re: [Ortenau] Sauer and/or Widemer Carol: There is a mailing list for Urloffen-descended and for St. Charles County, MO. researchers, as well which I am cc'ing. I am wondering if there is anyone who might be able to help as well. with your questions. For what it is worth I have a Jockerst/Jokerst/Joggerst line as well from Urloffen which I have researched extensively (but not exhaustively). Dan Bravard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Rogers" <homealot@earthlink.net> To: <deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 4:00 PM Subject: [Ortenau] Sauer and/or Widemer > Hello again, > > I'm back after a break from the List and very recently discovered a Joseph > E. Sauer that purchased government land in 1853 in Ste. Genevieve, > Missouri, > one plot being right next to Lawrence "Jokest". Having Sauer ancestry in > Appenweier, I did some research on this individual to find him in Ste. > Genevieve in 1860 and 1870 census, but in St. Michael, Madison Co., > Missouri, in 1880 - but in Brazeau, Perry Co., Missouri, in 1850. On a > hunch, I found his marriages and some of the older children's baptismal > records in St. Joseph's Church, Apple Creek, Perry County, where I found > his > parents to be Stephan Sauer and Legard Ernst from possibly a misspelled > version of Renchen, for which town I found in a brother, Anselm's marriage > record to Mariannam Laible/Leible, son of Vincent Laible and Rosalie > Widemer > from what I think is misspelling of Urlofen. "Anselmum" was listed born > 16 > April 1827, and Mariannam was listed born Jun 1829. Not as much info was > listed in Joseph E. Sauer's marriage to Mary Ann Ponder, d/o Laurence > Ponder > and M.A. Schrempp. There was also another Sauer family in Apple Creek at > that same time, but that family is listed from a town in Prussia. Is > anyone > studying this Sauer line? I'm wondering what made Joseph E. decide to > move > from Perry County to Ste. Genevieve, unless he previously knew some > families > from towns north of Offenburg that immigrated to Ste. Genevieve. > > Carol Rogers > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEU-BAD-ORTENAU-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Carol, Thoughts. Why did Joseph E Sauer move from Perry County to Ste Genevieve County in 1853.…only guesses are possible. I don't know exactly where the two individual towns may be in relation to each other but the counties abut. From one extreme he might have moved next door, he might have done the 19th century action of the returnees of the 20th century, moving back to the "inner city" but more likely government land was cheap and it was a deal of the century for him. More land for less money, hopefully better land. Now as to finding a Sauer-Ernst marriage in a town of the Ortenau, or just in the Ortenau or maybe somewhere in Baden could be similar to looking for a Smith-Jones marriage in some corner of the U.S. For all the towns I have researched for my Sauer ancestors, I have found only one such marriage but both surnames kept showing up in many of the towns. Your and my Sauer lines never met but you know what a big group was from the Appenweier area. My own line from Oensbach may have "started" with a 1722 marriage but following the descendants of that marriage to about 1850 took me into more than a dozen and a half towns from Oos in the north to Appenweier in the south. One of female lines ended up as far north as Karlsruhe. That 1722 start really was not a start as two Sauer brothers married in 1685 at Urloffen and the family prior to that time had been at Zusenhofen. at least from the final years of the Thirty Years War. Many of the extended Sauer family did emigrate but I have nothing on any of your names. Those two brothers from Zusenhofen who married at Urloffen married sisters with the surname of Widamer/Widemer. Memory is (I am not at my computer for this message) is that some of the early years of the Church Registers at Urloffen are not there as I do remember difficulties in trying to find the descendants of that part of the family which stayed in that town……confirming an early marriage of one of the other brothers which made his additional marriages slightly suspect, was not possible. Unless the Auswanderer list, the Offenburg information, Ancestry.com with luck of a more than complete ship Manifest offer anything on your Joseph or his brother, Anselm, we might never know which Sauer group your two brothers sprung from. While Josef, of course, is common to my line, Stefan/Stephan and Anselm are not. Luitgardis and its variations certainly fits towns of the Ortenau area but also of other Catholic parts of Baden. I'd gamble on Urloffen (cousins from my not found details on the remaining 1600's family?) but Appenweier is a good possibility based on the hope that the Ortenau was the birth location….and I probably would be completely wrong. djweber djwdjw@ix,netcom.com -------------------- -----Original Message----- >From: Carol Rogers <homealot@earthlink.net> >Sent: May 6, 2008 4:00 PM >To: deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com >Subject: [Ortenau] Sauer and/or Widemer > >Hello again, > >I'm back after a break from the List and very recently discovered a Joseph >E. Sauer that purchased government land in 1853 in Ste. Genevieve, Missouri, >one plot being right next to Lawrence "Jokest". Having Sauer ancestry in >Appenweier, I did some research on this individual to find him in Ste. >Genevieve in 1860 and 1870 census, but in St. Michael, Madison Co., >Missouri, in 1880 - but in Brazeau, Perry Co., Missouri, in 1850. On a >hunch, I found his marriages and some of the older children's baptismal >records in St. Joseph's Church, Apple Creek, Perry County, where I found his >parents to be Stephan Sauer and Legard Ernst from possibly a misspelled >version of Renchen, for which town I found in a brother, Anselm's marriage >record to Mariannam Laible/Leible, son of Vincent Laible and Rosalie Widemer >from what I think is misspelling of Urlofen. "Anselmum" was listed born 16 >April 1827, and Mariannam was listed born Jun 1829. Not as much info was >listed in Joseph E. Sauer's marriage to Mary Ann Ponder, d/o Laurence Ponder >and M.A. Schrempp. There was also another Sauer family in Apple Creek at >that same time, but that family is listed from a town in Prussia. Is anyone >studying this Sauer line? I'm wondering what made Joseph E. decide to move >from Perry County to Ste. Genevieve, unless he previously knew some families >from towns north of Offenburg that immigrated to Ste. Genevieve. > >Carol Rogers > >

Carol, My name is Ted Kirn of New Orleans. I noticed your Sauer relatives and I am wondering if there is a connection to Ottersweir in Baden. My great-great-great grandfather, Andreas Kirn of Neusatz, was married to Elizabetha Sauer of Ottersweir. I don't know anyone else on the Sauer line at this point. Elizabeth and Andreas had fourteen children. Theodor Kirn left Neusatz in 1863 and came to America. He served in the 41st Infantry Regiment of Missouri. He then traveled to New Orleans after the Civil War. If you know of a possible connection, please contact me. ---- Carol Rogers <homealot@earthlink.net> wrote: > Hello again, > > I'm back after a break from the List and very recently discovered a Joseph > E. Sauer that purchased government land in 1853 in Ste. Genevieve, Missouri, > one plot being right next to Lawrence "Jokest". Having Sauer ancestry in > Appenweier, I did some research on this individual to find him in Ste. > Genevieve in 1860 and 1870 census, but in St. Michael, Madison Co., > Missouri, in 1880 - but in Brazeau, Perry Co., Missouri, in 1850. On a > hunch, I found his marriages and some of the older children's baptismal > records in St. Joseph's Church, Apple Creek, Perry County, where I found his > parents to be Stephan Sauer and Legard Ernst from possibly a misspelled > version of Renchen, for which town I found in a brother, Anselm's marriage > record to Mariannam Laible/Leible, son of Vincent Laible and Rosalie Widemer > from what I think is misspelling of Urlofen. "Anselmum" was listed born 16 > April 1827, and Mariannam was listed born Jun 1829. Not as much info was > listed in Joseph E. Sauer's marriage to Mary Ann Ponder, d/o Laurence Ponder > and M.A. Schrempp. There was also another Sauer family in Apple Creek at > that same time, but that family is listed from a town in Prussia. Is anyone > studying this Sauer line? I'm wondering what made Joseph E. decide to move > from Perry County to Ste. Genevieve, unless he previously knew some families > from towns north of Offenburg that immigrated to Ste. Genevieve. > > Carol Rogers > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEU-BAD-ORTENAU-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello again, I'm back after a break from the List and very recently discovered a Joseph E. Sauer that purchased government land in 1853 in Ste. Genevieve, Missouri, one plot being right next to Lawrence "Jokest". Having Sauer ancestry in Appenweier, I did some research on this individual to find him in Ste. Genevieve in 1860 and 1870 census, but in St. Michael, Madison Co., Missouri, in 1880 - but in Brazeau, Perry Co., Missouri, in 1850. On a hunch, I found his marriages and some of the older children's baptismal records in St. Joseph's Church, Apple Creek, Perry County, where I found his parents to be Stephan Sauer and Legard Ernst from possibly a misspelled version of Renchen, for which town I found in a brother, Anselm's marriage record to Mariannam Laible/Leible, son of Vincent Laible and Rosalie Widemer from what I think is misspelling of Urlofen. "Anselmum" was listed born 16 April 1827, and Mariannam was listed born Jun 1829. Not as much info was listed in Joseph E. Sauer's marriage to Mary Ann Ponder, d/o Laurence Ponder and M.A. Schrempp. There was also another Sauer family in Apple Creek at that same time, but that family is listed from a town in Prussia. Is anyone studying this Sauer line? I'm wondering what made Joseph E. decide to move from Perry County to Ste. Genevieve, unless he previously knew some families from towns north of Offenburg that immigrated to Ste. Genevieve. Carol Rogers

Heelo DJ, Good to see your input. I agree that they all lead to John when translated, but the original post was seeking to find the proper form of the untranslated name, and that is why I say they are different, because they were treated differently. My research doesn't go back quite as far as yours, and I don't recall the time frame for the original post. Interesting data on Hans in the 1600s, but you mostly seem to come to the same conclusion as I have, that Johannes was treated differently than Johan. It would also seem that Hans is mostly the 1600s equivalent to Johannes in the manner in which it was used, that being that no Honorary name was given and it was both the Honorary and Ruf name. Which of course makes sense, at least to me, as I would be inclined to match Hans as a nickname/abbreviation for Johannes rather than Johan, if there was reason to suspect that Hans was a nickname rather than an actual given name. Brian On Sat, April 26, 2008 3:16 pm, djwdjw@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Brian, > > I'll get involved in this one, also. > > I would believe that all depends on a time period for our search. Agreed, > Hans, Johann and Johannes all translate into English as John but I have > found that in the earlier days of most (not all) of the Church Registers > which I have attempted to read that Hans is the more oft version of John, > certainly in the 1600s and rarely is the gentleman listed with an > additional first name. > > (I've never considered the Germanic naming as first and second names, only > multiple first names with one being the Honorary name and one being the > Familiar/Ruf name---you can get into other areas away from Baden and find > a string of six or seven baptismal names given to a child and you assume > the first given name is the Honorary and then try you to figure out from > additional Rite entries which would be the Ruf name.) >

Hello Pat, > In the information that you sent to me on Apr 17th, I was missing the > information on Catharina Nickert (4106) meanwhile I saw the kinship book but the page with number 4106 is missing in that copy. I hope that page isn't missing in all copies. And I hope I have the chance to view another copy in some weeks. - Wendelin

Thank you, Wendelin. I will be patient and hope you are able to find another copy to check. BEst regards, Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendelin Irslinger" <genealogy@babbalu.com> To: <deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com> Cc: "Pat Zipf" <patzipf@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [Ortenau] Nickert from Kippenheim > Hello Pat, > >> In the information that you sent to me on Apr 17th, I was missing the >> information on Catharina Nickert (4106) > meanwhile I saw the kinship book but the page with number 4106 is > missing in that copy. I hope that page isn't missing in all > copies. And I hope I have the chance to view another copy in some weeks. > > - Wendelin

Brian, I'll get involved in this one, also. I would believe that all depends on a time period for our search. Agreed, Hans, Johann and Johannes all translate into English as John but I have found that in the earlier days of most (not all) of the Church Registers which I have attempted to read that Hans is the more oft version of John, certainly in the 1600s and rarely is the gentleman listed with an additional first name. (I've never considered the Germanic naming as first and second names, only multiple first names with one being the Honorary name and one being the Familiar/Ruf name---you can get into other areas away from Baden and find a string of six or seven baptismal names given to a child and you assume the first given name is the Honorary and then try you to figure out from additional Rite entries which would be the Ruf name.) Johannes seemed to follow in time, again John, to us, but with no additional name. Johannes seemed in the Registers which I searched as being more common in the 1700s. Then a jump to the later 1700s and the 1800s and I have found Johann attached as with another name, usually as the Honorary, with the additional first name being the Ruf name. I would imagine that we have all found these in a some variance depending on our specific area of search but Hans, Johannes and Johann all do lead us into John. When we "translate", no true difference. How the family used the individual's name would be the key but unless that individual was important enough to have left history/details in writing we may never know so we live with what we can find from the Church Registers. djweber djwdjw@ix.netcom.com -------------------- -----Original Message----- >From: brian@amason.net >Sent: Apr 25, 2008 4:06 PM >To: deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [Ortenau] kinship book for Kippenheim: Stulz > >On Thu, April 24, 2008 12:40 pm, Wendelin Irslinger wrote: >> >> >>> > What is the difference between Johann and Johannes? Is that like >>> > John and Johnathan? >> No difference between Johann and Johannes and they were maybe called >> Hans. >> >> >> - Wendelin >> >I have to disagree with the great and wonderful Wendelin on this point. > >Everything, I've learned of these two names says they are treated very >differently. While they are both "John", one is a special version of >John, while the other is a plain ordinary John. Just like any good >Conspiracy Theory, Johan(n) persons always, as a rule, are part of a three >name naming convention (i.e. Johann Sebastian Bach). Whereas Johannes is >never, as a rule, accompanied by a second name (i.e. Johannes Kepler). Of >course, rules get broken all the time, but this seems to be a pretty firm >rule in at least pre-20th Century Germanic nations. This is only a result >of my experience, study and research in German genealogy and Wendelin is >far more acquainted with all things German than I, and all things >genealogical. I would like to know his reasoning for saying there is no >difference though, since it is contrary to everything I ever seen, read, >or heard regarding those names. > >Humbly submitted for your approval, >Brian

Hello Pat, > In the information that you sent to me on Apr 17th, I was missing the > information on Catharina Nickert (4106) and Catharina Keller > (6192).....might you have anything on these women? I made even a photo of the entry #6192a but it don't tell her date of birth or parents: 6192a oo Sebastian Wiedergrün Catharina Keller <oo II see 5538> - Wendelin

All of my research proves you correct Brian....one step further. I have always found (with only a couple of exceptions and my tree is over 70,000 and building) Johann to be abbreviated as Hans, and Johannes is Hanss or Hanß. One form is for John the Baptist, the other is for St. John, but I have forgotten which is which. Anyone know? Jäger -----Original Message----- From: deu-bad-ortenau-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:deu-bad-ortenau-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of brian@amason.net Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 3:06 PM To: deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Ortenau] kinship book for Kippenheim: Stulz On Thu, April 24, 2008 12:40 pm, Wendelin Irslinger wrote: > > >> > What is the difference between Johann and Johannes? Is that like >> > John and Johnathan? > No difference between Johann and Johannes and they were maybe called > Hans. > > > - Wendelin > I have to disagree with the great and wonderful Wendelin on this point. Everything, I've learned of these two names says they are treated very differently. While they are both "John", one is a special version of John, while the other is a plain ordinary John. Just like any good Conspiracy Theory, Johan(n) persons always, as a rule, are part of a three name naming convention (i.e. Johann Sebastian Bach). Whereas Johannes is never, as a rule, accompanied by a second name (i.e. Johannes Kepler). Of course, rules get broken all the time, but this seems to be a pretty firm rule in at least pre-20th Century Germanic nations. This is only a result of my experience, study and research in German genealogy and Wendelin is far more acquainted with all things German than I, and all things genealogical. I would like to know his reasoning for saying there is no difference though, since it is contrary to everything I ever seen, read, or heard regarding those names. Humbly submitted for your approval, Brian ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DEU-BAD-ORTENAU-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Wendelin, I appreciate your help so very much.....many, many thanks. Best regards, Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendelin Irslinger" <genealogy@babbalu.com> To: <deu-bad-ortenau@rootsweb.com> Cc: "Pat Zipf" <patzipf@comcast.net> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [Ortenau] Catharina Keller from Kippenheim Hello Pat, > In the information that you sent to me on Apr 17th, I was missing the > information on Catharina Nickert (4106) and Catharina Keller > (6192).....might you have anything on these women? I made even a photo of the entry #6192a but it don't tell her date of birth or parents: 6192a oo Sebastian Wiedergrün Catharina Keller <oo II see 5538> - Wendelin