DJ, In addition to what I just sent, also found a 6 page listing of names in the Windschlaeg records for Confirmations performed in Greisheim in 1760. Listed was the following: Martin and Anna Maria Fischer, son and daughter of Joannis Fischer and Anna Maria Goss. Also, going back to the death record on Joannes Fischer, I have TWO copies of TWO different death records for a Joannes Fischer, both listed as dying on the same day with pretty much the same info as to burial, last sacraments, and witnesses, but the only thing is only one of them listed Joannes as being the husband of Anna Maria Bueller. The other one listed no relationship to anyone. That same one was rather squeezed in at the bottom of the page, however. So I'm now wondering if this was written in later, thinking the original record got missed, OR was this a death record for the son, one of the nine children, who might have died the same day as his father?? But I doubt this is the case as both are listing Joannes as a farmer, and the son would have only been 16yrs at the time. Usually they mentioned parents with children who died back then. I think looking for clues of witnesses in other baptismal records, as you suggested, is a better idea. Carol -----Original Message----- From: djweber [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 11:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Ortenau] help needed Carol, Do you have the marriage record of Jonas Goss and Margaretha Bluemberger? Is this too early for the Windschlaeg records? Are these the names as written in the Church Register? Do you have all their children's baptismal records? Are the parents listed as Jonas and Margaretha in each instance? Have you found any other instances of a Bueller/Büller/Bühler family in Windschlaeg? Have you found any hint of a connection between Bueller and Bluemberger? Wendelin's page on Windschlaeg does identify Böhle as a 1700 time-period surname in the town....connection? Do you believe you have found all the children of Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss? Have you double checked the death register for shortly after the last-found child was born to see if any woman by anything close to a similar name to Anna Maria Goss/Gose is recorded? The next thought is if you can find any instance by checking page after page starting with the death record in 1761 of Anna Maria Bueller and working backwards in the baptismal section to see if you can find an Anna Maria Bueller (and/or Anna Maria Goss), uxor Joannes Fischer as a Godparent. While that is tedious work, it can be a hint as to either timing of marriages or written error of surname. You could always work the other way from the start of their marriage to the end which might be easier as Godparents are very often close to the same age as the parents. A death might not have been recorded and a second marriage could have taken place at a nearby town but my first effort would be to know everything I could find about Joannes and his Anna Maria(s), their children's baptismal, marriage and death records and the parents and siblings of Anna Maria(s). You might find a slip-up somewhere as the key to your problem. djweber [email protected] ---------------------------- From: "Carol Rogers" <[email protected]> Any help on solving the following mystery would be greatly appreciated!! The first record of Joannes Fischer in Windschläg was for his marriage to Anna Maria Goss on 4 Feb 1726. The only record of his death, however, lists his wife as Anna Maria "Bueller". His burial was witnessed by Michael Goss and Jona Goss. I have yet to find a burial record for his wife, Anna Maria Goss, but have found a burial record for Anna Maria "Bueller" that lists Joannes Fischer as her husband. Her death on 26 Jan 1761 and subsequent burial on 27 Jan was witnessed by Anton Fischer and Martin Fischer, both sons of Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss. I've been unable to locate a marriage for Joannes and Anna Maria "Bueller". The marriage record for Joannes and Anna Maria Goss seems to indicate she was unmarried ("virgo"). Since Anna Maria Goss and parents were listed from Windschläg in her marriage records, I question whether she would have been buried elsewhere, but that could be a possibility. This might indicate that Joannes Fischer had remarried somewhere other than Windschläg after A.M.Goss died, to a A.M.Bueller - and the priest at the time of their death did not realize, or failed to indicate, that Joannes had been married prior to the listed Anna Maria Bueller. That might also explain why the marriage for (Joannes)Martin Fischer to Magdalena Eggs was listed as Martin Fischer, son of Joannes Fischer p.m.(after death) and Anna Maria "Bueller". This marriage took place on 20 Apr 1761, just three months after Anna Maria "Bueller's" death, and ten years after Joannes Fischer's death. However, there is no other baptismal record for a Martin Fischer in Windschläg (going back to the beginning of the 1700's) other than (Joannes) Martinus, born on 1 Oct 1738, to Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss. If there was a second marriage, I could understand a priest listing the most recent wife of the groom's father as being the groom's mother, especially if the priest was "new to the parish", and the "mother" had died so recently. Therefore I believe these two Anna Maria's are either one and the same, or that Joannes remarried for a short time after his first wife died. Any thoughts on this?!! Anna Maria Goss' parents were Jonas Goss and Margaretha Bluemberger, from Windschläg, while Joannes Fischer was son of Joannes Fischer from "Weyhldorf". Both fathers were listed deceased on marriage of Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss in 1926 - for whatever this info is worth. They had eight other children besides Martin. No death record was found for Martin prior to the marriage in 1761, so I feel there is only ONE Martin. I've pulled all the Fischer records I could find from these five Windschläg films in connecting all the Fischer's in this town up to the later 1800's, and find this is the only puzzle. Carol ==== DEU-BAD-ORTENAU Mailing List ==== < http://www.heavens-above.com/countries.asp > can be searched for neighboring towns if you fear that one of your ancestors moved to or from your searched town. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

DJ, In answer to your following questions: Do you have the marriage record of Jonas Goss and Margaretha Bluemberger? ***** No Is this too early for the Windschlaeg records? Are these the names as written in the Church Register? ***** Yes Do you have all their children's baptismal records? ***** None for Jonas and Margaretha as even their son, Johannes was apparently born in "Weyhldorf" - and as yet I have not located that town. Are the parents listed as Jonas and Margaretha in each instance? ***** Actually, now that I've rechecked what I have here at home, in the marriage record for Johannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss, only the father is mentioned as Jonas "Gossen". That is the only time I saw the "en" ending to that name. But then I found a baptismal record for Anna Maria on 14 Mar 1705, and that is where I got the mother's name of Bluemberger. I believe the father was listed as Jonas Gos. Now keep in mind that Johannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss had nine children, born between Jan 1727 and Nov 1745. With each baptismal record (in chart form for most), those same parents were listed. The only variant might have been between Gos and Goss. Jonas Goss and Margaretha Bluemberger would have been the maternal grandparents for these 9 children. It seems like I made a note one time of one or two siblings for Anna Maria with the same parents names, but right now I can not locate that note. But I have MANY notes for this town and I just reviewed some of the births, marriages and deaths during that earlier period and there are a few records I find interestingly suspicious that lead into your next two questions. Have you found any other instances of a Bueller/Büller/Bühler family in Windschlaeg? **** Yes, to follow .... Have you found any hint of a connection between Bueller and Bluemberger? ***** POSSIBLY! A marriage for Joannes Bueler and Anna Margaretha Bluemberger on 7 Mar 1707, and then a death record on 29 Nov 1728 for a Margaretha Bueler, born Bluemberger, wife of Joannis Bueler; and then just shortly after on 7 Feb 1729 a marriage of widower Joannes Bueler to Maria Elisabetha Haiz, d/o Nicoli Haiz from Ebersweier. But what I find confusing is that there is also a death record for a Joannes Goss on 21 Nov 1714, so I'm not sure if that is the same person as Jonas Gos/Goss/Gossen. Wendelin's page on Windschlaeg does identify Böhle as a 1700 time-period surname in the town....connection? **** Not sure, as Bueller/Bueler was pretty clearly written that way back in the early 1700 records, and I do not have any notes for Böhle that far back, but there is a Conrad Böhle, born in 1808, as son of Martin Böhle, who I have listed as marrying a Petronilla Fischer in 1838. So maybe when I take that Böhle back further, I might find the name slowly transfigures from one to the other. I do find both Boehle and Buehler in Ste. Genevieve tombstone records, so I'm thinking that both versions did exist. Do you believe you have found all the children of Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss? **** Yes, in the several times I've combed through the records. Have you double checked the death register for shortly after the last-found child was born to see if any woman by anything close to a similar name to Anna Maria Goss/Gose is recorded? **** At this point, I can't say I have as I don't have ongoing notes for the death records during that period. But I do believe I covered the period between 1745 when the youngest child, Catherine Fischer, was born to 1751 when Joannes Fischer died and Anna Maria Bueller was listed as the wife. I will go back and double check again for any possible similarities. Now that last suggestion you had of looking for an Anna Maria Bueller or an Anna Maria Goss as w/o Joannes Fischer listed as Godmother in any baptismal records, starting in 1761 and working back is most interesting, and I certainly will do that! Unfortunately, there was only two of the nine children that had marriages in Windschläg. One was for Joannes Martin, with the Bueller name, and the other for Francis Anthony, with the Goss name. I need to comb through the marriage records again as I did find a death record for another daughter, who was then married to Georgi Eggs, but I have not yet searched for a marriage record for her as I've just started on the spouses' "non-Fischer" surnames. But I will certainly watch for any mention of a Bueller. There are four other males from these nine children that I can't find either marriage or death record for, so they might have moved. One was another Joannes, but born in 1735 - too young to have died in 1751 as husband of A.M. Bueller. A big THANK YOU!, DJ, for giving this issue so much thought. Carol

Carol, Do you have the marriage record of Jonas Goss and Margaretha Bluemberger? Is this too early for the Windschlaeg records? Are these the names as written in the Church Register? Do you have all their children's baptismal records? Are the parents listed as Jonas and Margaretha in each instance? Have you found any other instances of a Bueller/Büller/Bühler family in Windschlaeg? Have you found any hint of a connection between Bueller and Bluemberger? Wendelin's page on Windschlaeg does identify Böhle as a 1700 time-period surname in the town....connection? Do you believe you have found all the children of Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss? Have you double checked the death register for shortly after the last-found child was born to see if any woman by anything close to a similar name to Anna Maria Goss/Gose is recorded? The next thought is if you can find any instance by checking page after page starting with the death record in 1761 of Anna Maria Bueller and working backwards in the baptismal section to see if you can find an Anna Maria Bueller (and/or Anna Maria Goss), uxor Joannes Fischer as a Godparent. While that is tedious work, it can be a hint as to either timing of marriages or written error of surname. You could always work the other way from the start of their marriage to the end which might be easier as Godparents are very often close to the same age as the parents. A death might not have been recorded and a second marriage could have taken place at a nearby town but my first effort would be to know everything I could find about Joannes and his Anna Maria(s), their children's baptismal, marriage and death records and the parents and siblings of Anna Maria(s). You might find a slip-up somewhere as the key to your problem. djweber [email protected] ---------------------------- From: "Carol Rogers" <[email protected]> Any help on solving the following mystery would be greatly appreciated!! The first record of Joannes Fischer in Windschläg was for his marriage to Anna Maria Goss on 4 Feb 1726. The only record of his death, however, lists his wife as Anna Maria "Bueller". His burial was witnessed by Michael Goss and Jona Goss. I have yet to find a burial record for his wife, Anna Maria Goss, but have found a burial record for Anna Maria "Bueller" that lists Joannes Fischer as her husband. Her death on 26 Jan 1761 and subsequent burial on 27 Jan was witnessed by Anton Fischer and Martin Fischer, both sons of Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss. I've been unable to locate a marriage for Joannes and Anna Maria "Bueller". The marriage record for Joannes and Anna Maria Goss seems to indicate she was unmarried ("virgo"). Since Anna Maria Goss and parents were listed from Windschläg in her marriage records, I question whether she would have been buried elsewhere, but that could be a possibility. This might indicate that Joannes Fischer had remarried somewhere other than Windschläg after A.M.Goss died, to a A.M.Bueller - and the priest at the time of their death did not realize, or failed to indicate, that Joannes had been married prior to the listed Anna Maria Bueller. That might also explain why the marriage for (Joannes)Martin Fischer to Magdalena Eggs was listed as Martin Fischer, son of Joannes Fischer p.m.(after death) and Anna Maria "Bueller". This marriage took place on 20 Apr 1761, just three months after Anna Maria "Bueller's" death, and ten years after Joannes Fischer's death. However, there is no other baptismal record for a Martin Fischer in Windschläg (going back to the beginning of the 1700's) other than (Joannes) Martinus, born on 1 Oct 1738, to Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss. If there was a second marriage, I could understand a priest listing the most recent wife of the groom's father as being the groom's mother, especially if the priest was "new to the parish", and the "mother" had died so recently. Therefore I believe these two Anna Maria's are either one and the same, or that Joannes remarried for a short time after his first wife died. Any thoughts on this?!! Anna Maria Goss' parents were Jonas Goss and Margaretha Bluemberger, from Windschläg, while Joannes Fischer was son of Joannes Fischer from "Weyhldorf". Both fathers were listed deceased on marriage of Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss in 1926 - for whatever this info is worth. They had eight other children besides Martin. No death record was found for Martin prior to the marriage in 1761, so I feel there is only ONE Martin. I've pulled all the Fischer records I could find from these five Windschläg films in connecting all the Fischer's in this town up to the later 1800's, and find this is the only puzzle. Carol

Any help on solving the following mystery would be greatly appreciated!! The first record of Joannes Fischer in Windschläg was for his marriage to Anna Maria Goss on 4 Feb 1726. The only record of his death, however, lists his wife as Anna Maria "Bueller". His burial was witnessed by Michael Goss and Jona Goss. I have yet to find a burial record for his wife, Anna Maria Goss, but have found a burial record for Anna Maria "Bueller" that lists Joannes Fischer as her husband. Her death on 26 Jan 1761 and subsequent burial on 27 Jan was witnessed by Anton Fischer and Martin Fischer, both sons of Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss. I've been unable to locate a marriage for Joannes and Anna Maria "Bueller". The marriage record for Joannes and Anna Maria Goss seems to indicate she was unmarried ("virgo"). Since Anna Maria Goss and parents were listed from Windschläg in her marriage records, I question whether she would have been buried elsewhere, but that could be a possibility. This might indicate that Joannes Fischer had remarried somewhere other than Windschläg after A.M.Goss died, to a A.M.Bueller - and the priest at the time of their death did not realize, or failed to indicate, that Joannes had been married prior to the listed Anna Maria Bueller. That might also explain why the marriage for (Joannes)Martin Fischer to Magdalena Eggs was listed as Martin Fischer, son of Joannes Fischer p.m.(after death) and Anna Maria "Bueller". This marriage took place on 20 Apr 1761, just three months after Anna Maria "Bueller's" death, and ten years after Joannes Fischer's death. However, there is no other baptismal record for a Martin Fischer in Windschläg (going back to the beginning of the 1700's) other than (Joannes) Martinus, born on 1 Oct 1738, to Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss. If there was a second marriage, I could understand a priest listing the most recent wife of the groom's father as being the groom's mother, especially if the priest was "new to the parish", and the "mother" had died so recently. Therefore I believe these two Anna Maria's are either one and the same, or that Joannes remarried for a short time after his first wife died. Any thoughts on this?!! Anna Maria Goss' parents were Jonas Goss and Margaretha Bluemberger, from Windschläg, while Joannes Fischer was son of Joannes Fischer from "Weyhldorf". Both fathers were listed deceased on marriage of Joannes Fischer and Anna Maria Goss in 1926 - for whatever this info is worth. They had eight other children besides Martin. No death record was found for Martin prior to the marriage in 1761, so I feel there is only ONE Martin. I've pulled all the Fischer records I could find from these five Windschläg films in connecting all the Fischer's in this town up to the later 1800's, and find this is the only puzzle. Carol

DJW: I think that's a great idea to check with some of the other old German Script researchers. I am requesting a consult then from anyone else with experience in reading old German script. Perhaps "off-line" or better-said "off-list" would be better. I don't have a Website to upload to but I can scan the photocopies I have and hope that they are still legible. Anyone willing to give it a whirl? Thanks. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "djweber" <[email protected]> To: "Dan Bravard" <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:03 PM Subject: Re: [Ortenau] Koehnig/Koehly same surname? > Dan, > > Agreed, the surname Köhly/Koehly does exist. A < google.com > search < > köhly + genealogy > offers a number of general pages and only a few specific > pages. Rootsweb and its related WorldConnect shows a number of individuals > with that surname but under the Koehly spelling none of the listings have > any location associated with them. > > I would imagine that Wendelin would have some ideas about possible locations > of the surname in the Baden area. I did not check the German telephone book > to see what PLZs were associated with the surname today. > > And, I agree with you that in various Germanic areas it was normal when the > wife had inherited assets, normally a farm, that the husband would change > his surname to that of the farm....which happened to be his wife's surname, > also. I would not state that this did or did not happen in the Baden area; > my knowledge is not that wide. I have seen this mostly to the north in the > Hannoverian and Prussian lands where various farmers held the occupational > title of Colon/Colonus and where the positioning of "Colonatsvertrag" did > exist. > > I understand in the Württembergische area a change in surname with no > connection to Colonatsvertrag status could happen but this usually was of a > person with an "upper" position, an intellectual. This change of surname > was similar to the French "dit"/called surname which differs from the > peasant farmer situation and as with the French "dit", the sons might or > might not have continued the original surname, the changed surname or even a > third choice of surname. > > Considering the closeness of the two surnames, Koenig and Koehly, I would > still guess the actual situation was a mere mental or spelling error. Do > you have a copy of the Church Register Koehly mention so that it could be > uploaded for one of the German-Script Specialists on the List to go to its > URL and take a look at it....or maybe a small e-mail attachment directly to > Wendelin. With the difference in telephone and ISP costs in Germany as > compared to the US, I would not suggest any large or long attachment. > > But I agree that the answer might be in additional Renchen films needed to > be rented, particularly the Familienbuch film. > > djweber > [email protected] > ---------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Bravard" <[email protected]> > > > >I forgot to add one thing to the mix. Apparently, the family name persists > > of Koehly to this day in the US. So something significant occurred, > > misspelling or not. I did remember one little factoid from my research on > > a > > line of mine that came from Westphalia. If a father-in-law had no living > > sons to take the farm once he died he would often bequeth it to a > > son-in-law. The son-in-law would then change his name to the in-law's. > > All > > the descendants would then have the new surname, too. > > > > I just gotta keep digging I suppose. > > > > Dan > > >

Maurine, This will not be the most exact answer to your questions. After two days of Rootsweb being down, a window for incoming List e-mail opened, some messages arrived and then a construction company cut a telephone cable down the street so I have your message but I do not have computer ability to check any on-line details for you. For a temporary answer while the telephone cable is being repaired, I do have several thoughts. Considering how grossly flawed the IGI information is, the idea of an Ignatz/Ignaz Schwab of 1792 or 1793 being your Ignaz Schwab might be as safe as your opening a telephone book today to any page, pointing with with a pencil and accepting the idea that the individual pointed out in that manner must be a close relative of yours. Much of the early IGI information was done for religious reasons and not with any genealogical intent or perhaps ability. However, those IGI listings can be a lead for you to search into and to check. I am not biased against the IGI listings but I am biased against using any IGI information without confirmation of the specific information. In my own searchings I have attempted to read enough filmed Church Registers comparing various findings in those Church Registers against patron IGI listings and against batch filings which have identified so many found IGI errors that I must have that bias against using any IGI unconfirmed information. I have no idea how common the surname Schwab may be in any area of Germany but I imagine that today there are so many individuals by that surname that the German on-line telephone directory would not give you any information without your identifying a name or a town. I might imagine that in your time period of search that percentage-wise, Schwab was also a common Germanic surname. As for Busenbach, the town is to the southeast of Karlsruhe, probably less then 10 kilometers and it would be directly south of Durlach. This area is far to the north of the Ortenau and even north of the town of Rastatt. A search on the town name, Busenbach at < http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/loctown.htm > wold lead to a map of the area. My 1937 atlas identifies Rheinau (with the old spelling mentioned by Wendelin) as being at least 30 kilometers south of Straßburg, well to the southwest of Offenburg and even to the west-southwest of Lahr. Again the web site above should give you a map location but remember you would be searching in France and not Germany. I would have to believe, IGI errors or not, that any Schwab from near Karlsruhe would be much too far away from your wanted location but Rheinau is much closer to the Ortenau. Looking at a more current map, Rhinau is to the northeast of Colmar and Sélestat with neighboring German towns across the river of Kappel-Grafenhausen, Wittenweier, Kippenweier, Mahlberg and Ettenheim being about as far distant as Lahr, which isn't that far. At various times in the past, this portion of the Alsace was much more Germanic than French and was under Germanic control. Another web site to check for location although it will not offer a map is the < http://www.heavens-above.com/countries.asp > site which will offer latitude and longitude (although I have forgotted it they give you the information in Degrees, Minutes and Seconds or in Decimal Degree format) and then through its "nearest neighbours" link which will identify nearby town locations. Maurine, when you receive this you can believe that some hard working telephone employee has finished his hours standing in a hole in the ground splicing wire after wire from that broken cable and if I have not given you a proper answer, I should be able to receive your further request so I could then try better. djweber [email protected] ---------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurine LeBlanc" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:07 PM Subject: [Ortenau] Rhinau in Alsace > Wendelin, > > You informed me that Karolina Schwab was born in Rhinau. Is this in the > Ortenau area? > > I typed Ignatz Schwab in the IGI file and found two. It indicated that > both > were born in Busenbach, Karlsruhe in the years of 1793 and 1792, which > date > wise would be close. The question - is Busenbach, Karlsruhe in the > Ortenau > area and close to Rhinau? Sorry for my lack of knowledge of your country. > > Thank you, again. > > Maurine

Wendelin, You informed me that Karolina Schwab was born in Rhinau. Is this in the Ortenau area? I typed Ignatz Schwab in the IGI file and found two. It indicated that both were born in Busenbach, Karlsruhe in the years of 1793 and 1792, which date wise would be close. The question - is Busenbach, Karlsruhe in the Ortenau area and close to Rhinau? Sorry for my lack of knowledge of your country. Thank you, again. Maurine

Maurine, > Here I am again asking for your help. Bickel and Schwab are two of my > surnames. Karl Bickel and Karolina Schwab were born in Schutterzell. Karl > was a Büger und Bäckermeister there. They had six children. Do you have > data on them? Thank you for myself and several fellow researchers. Karolina is born in Rheinau (now: Rhinau) in Alsace. They had 7 children. 73 oo 2.5.1786: Carolus Bickel <Sohn des Joseph B., Jäger in Ichenheim, und der Maria Magdalena geb. Derendinger; oo II Ichenheim 13.10.1814 mit Luitgard Scheurer, siehe OSB Ichenheim 139>, Jäger, * Ichenheim 26.11.1763, + Ichenheim 8.1.1838, und Maria Anna (Sabina) Kopf <aus 720>, * 22.5.1765, + Ichenheim 17.2.1814. Er heißt Carl Borromäus Bickel. <Siehe auch OSB Ichenheim 135>. Katholisch. 2 Kinder: Josephus 2.2.1787, <siehe OSB Ichenheim 138, 141> Karl <74> 7 weiter Kinder siehe OSB Ichenheim 135 74 oo 20.11.1816: Karl Bickel <aus 73> Waldhüter, Bäckermeister und Gastwirt "Zur Tanne", und Carolina Schwab <Tochter des Ignaz Sch., Bäckermeister in Rheinau/Elsaß, und der Elisabetha geb. Jörger, * um 1793, + 11.3.1839. 7 Kinder: Maria Friederike <458> Maria Josephina, * Ichenheim 24.7.1824 Wilhelmina, * Ichenheim 29.5.1827 Karl Ferdinand 9.9.1817, <siehe OSB Ichenheim 142> Joseph August 20.3.1819, + Ichenheim 12.5.1823 Ludovicus 28.8.1830, ist 1850 nach Amerika ausgewandert Karl August 11.9.1833 Wendelin

Wendelin, Here I am again asking for your help. Bickel and Schwab are two of my surnames. Karl Bickel and Karolina Schwab were born in Schutterzell. Karl was a Büger und Bäckermeister there. They had six children. Do you have data on them? Thank you for myself and several fellow researchers. Maurine

In a message dated 2/2/2005 8:01:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: a Priest's error could be the logical answer.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>... I too must agree with D.J. My BUSAM & HUBER ancestors surname spelling changed a number of times over the years within the same parish in the kirchenbuch's of Nussbach and Ibach. So much so for the HUBER surname, I still am not sure how to enter these changes in my Familytreemaker software. Therefore, I would make the same asumption's re KOEHNIG/KOEHLY especially since the dates and names match up. Good luck in your search, Beverly Mack Zanon Researching NUSSBACH OFFENBURG ZUSENHOFEN MAISENBUHL SCHUTTERWALD PFOHREN LANGHURST IBACH KAPPELRODECK MAHLBERG

Dan, Agreed, the surname Köhly/Koehly does exist. A < google.com > search < köhly + genealogy > offers a number of general pages and only a few specific pages. Rootsweb and its related WorldConnect shows a number of individuals with that surname but under the Koehly spelling none of the listings have any location associated with them. I would imagine that Wendelin would have some ideas about possible locations of the surname in the Baden area. I did not check the German telephone book to see what PLZs were associated with the surname today. And, I agree with you that in various Germanic areas it was normal when the wife had inherited assets, normally a farm, that the husband would change his surname to that of the farm....which happened to be his wife's surname, also. I would not state that this did or did not happen in the Baden area; my knowledge is not that wide. I have seen this mostly to the north in the Hannoverian and Prussian lands where various farmers held the occupational title of Colon/Colonus and where the positioning of "Colonatsvertrag" did exist. I understand in the Württembergische area a change in surname with no connection to Colonatsvertrag status could happen but this usually was of a person with an "upper" position, an intellectual. This change of surname was similar to the French "dit"/called surname which differs from the peasant farmer situation and as with the French "dit", the sons might or might not have continued the original surname, the changed surname or even a third choice of surname. Considering the closeness of the two surnames, Koenig and Koehly, I would still guess the actual situation was a mere mental or spelling error. Do you have a copy of the Church Register Koehly mention so that it could be uploaded for one of the German-Script Specialists on the List to go to its URL and take a look at it....or maybe a small e-mail attachment directly to Wendelin. With the difference in telephone and ISP costs in Germany as compared to the US, I would not suggest any large or long attachment. But I agree that the answer might be in additional Renchen films needed to be rented, particularly the Familienbuch film. djweber [email protected] ---------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Bravard" <[email protected]> >I forgot to add one thing to the mix. Apparently, the family name persists > of Koehly to this day in the US. So something significant occurred, > misspelling or not. I did remember one little factoid from my research on > a > line of mine that came from Westphalia. If a father-in-law had no living > sons to take the farm once he died he would often bequeth it to a > son-in-law. The son-in-law would then change his name to the in-law's. > All > the descendants would then have the new surname, too. > > I just gotta keep digging I suppose. > > Dan

Hello Dan & D.J., For the record, there are Koenig's in Renchen, as I have a one who married one of my Stecher's. I'm out of touch with my research, having been away from my files and work for many months, and a laptop that is in long term rehab, but wanted to at least touch base. Johann Koenig, son of Moriz Koenig (Glassmaker) & Julianna Maier, was born July 11, 1836 and died Nov 3, 1910. Johann married Victoria Stecher in Renchen on May 21, 1863. Johann & Victoria had an illegitimate son Sebastien, born Jan 27, 1862. I do not yet know of any additional children, but have a long way to go. Fully aware that this information may not be of assistance. Familienbuch pages of the Renchen Catholic Church were indeed filmed. I have the microfilm on permanent loan at my local FHC. Kindest personal regards, Linda Rains

I am helping another genealogy researcher with tracing her family line back to this region and have a bit of a mystery. I am hoping that one of you might be able to shed some light. I found the 1881 mairrage record of Franz Xaver KOEHLY and Caroline Maegerle in Renchen. It listes the birthdate of Franz Xaver, who is of Urloffen, and parents' names. I then go to the baptismal records of Urloffen and find that there is a Xaver KOENIG with the exact same birthdate and parents' names of the mairrage record. I am fairly certain that Franz Xaver KOEHLY married in Renchen is Xaver Koehnig born in Urloffen - too much of a coincidence in dates and parents' names. However, I can't explain the difference in surnames. Does anyone know if there is any significance in the name difference or perhaps why there might have been a name change? Thanks. Dan Bravard Columbus, Ohio

Dan, He/They certainly sound as though you have only one man, the original Franz Xaver Koenig. You know that König is an early surname from the Urloffen area. At Renchen you have the marriage record. I believe from memory of searching at Renchen for the missing siblings from my family searches that Familienbuch pages were filmed of the Renchen Catholic Church. If Xaver and Caroline stayed at Renchen after the marriage, did you double check the family in the Familienbuch to confirm that the surname spelling stayed as Koehly rather than Koenig? Koehly might be merely a Priest's misspelling within the Marriage Register; the Familienbuch may give you an answer....or leave you without an answer. A second thought and here I do not know Renchen. Was Koehly a normal surname of Renchen? If so, a Priest's error could be the logical answer. I've seen and I imagine you have seen corrections of surnames in Church Registers and have seen certain errors where no correction was made. It is logical that they are but one man. And, there is still the slim possibility that they are two separate individuals. If Xaver were mine, I admit I would accept him and add as complete clarifying notes about the surname(s) as possible. From what you had told us and what I understand are your methods of research, I believe they are one. I could not say this to a neophyte researcher. djweber [email protected] ---------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Bravard" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: [Ortenau] Koehnig/Koehly same surname? >I am helping another genealogy researcher with tracing her family line back > to this region and have a bit of a mystery. I am hoping that one of you > might be able to shed some light. > > I found the 1881 mairrage record of Franz Xaver KOEHLY and Caroline > Maegerle > in Renchen. It listes the birthdate of Franz Xaver, who is of Urloffen, > and > parents' names. I then go to the baptismal records of Urloffen and find > that there is a Xaver KOENIG with the exact same birthdate and parents' > names of the mairrage record. I am fairly certain that Franz Xaver KOEHLY > married in Renchen is Xaver Koehnig born in Urloffen - too much of a > coincidence in dates and parents' names. However, I can't explain the > difference in surnames. Does anyone know if there is any significance in > the name difference or perhaps why there might have been a name change? > > Thanks. > > Dan Bravard > Columbus, Ohio >

I want to express my thanks for all the nice replies to my question. Again, this is a great group! Maurine

Johann Baptist Stocker (married 1st, the entry 3615) <oo1 s. 3615>, u. Salomea Geppert <T.d.(the daughter of) Jacob G., in Schutterzell, u.d. (and the daughter of)Ursula geb. Vogler(maiden name). Those are not the exact german words, but I have had my book for years and that is how I describe it in English.. Check #3615 and you should find another entry for him being married to someone. Linda

Maurine, From your message, I don't know which Ortssippenbuch may be involved so I am in the dark. I might have some guesses, though. Hopefully, someone will correct me and give you the proper answers. "s after oo1" -- might this be a suggestion that the current marriage would be Johann Baptist Stocker's second marriage and he is also listed with a code within the letter "S", number 3615? "u. before Salomea" -- Salomea became the wife, married to Johann Baptist with the exact meaning not of uxor as wife but of "und"....as "and"? "u.d" -- usually seems to mean "and of" although there might be a slim chance that it would mean the bride's mother was deceased at the time of the marriage. Is there no opening page of "Zeichen und Abkürzungen" which offers explanations of the notations and abbreviations used? My own guesses would be the simple choice of "und" and of "und der". djweber [email protected] ---------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurine LeBlanc" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: [Ortenau] Kinship Book > Good Day, > > Would someone be so kind and help me with wording from a kinship book? It > reads: > > Johann Baptist Stocker <oo1 s. 3615>, u. Salomea Geppert <T.d. Jacob G., > in > Schutterzell, u.d. Ursula geb. Vogler. > > What does the s after oo1 mean, u. before Salomea and u.d. mean? > > I thank you very much for your time. > > Maurine > >

Good Day, Would someone be so kind and help me with wording from a kinship book? It reads: Johann Baptist Stocker <oo1 s. 3615>, u. Salomea Geppert <T.d. Jacob G., in Schutterzell, u.d. Ursula geb. Vogler. What does the s after oo1 mean, u. before Salomea and u.d. mean? I thank you very much for your time. Maurine

Hello, NEW to the Ortenau Website is a Gedcom file concerning the ancestors of my great.... grandmother Maria Anna ZAPF, including many dates and names from Biberach/Kinzigtal, Nordrach, Gengenbach, Prinzbach, Berghaupten, Boesingen, Aichhalden, and others. You find the gedcom under "sources" (http://ortenau.speedyspace.de/search/). You are invited to ask questions, to add or correct information! The gedcom ist the result of a longer research I did in the Mormon archives. The sources are in most cases the "Kirchenbuecher", in some instances (i.e. Boesingen, Aichhalden) I have to give tribute to some friendly fellow genealogists - THANK YOU VERY MUCH Wendelin Irslinger, Martin Dilger, Wolf-Dieter Geißler, Theo Engeser, Rose Schiller, Jens Plawa, Edeltraud Duda - hope I haven´t forgotten anyone! The gedcom will see updates as often as I find new data. For today I say hello & have a nice weekend wherever you are! Kurt (Erlemann) Wuppertal

In 1701 the Habsburg lands of the Ortenau were given in fief to the Margrave of Baden-Baden, Ludwig Wilhelm. These Habsburg Ortenau lands did not revert to the Habsburg family until 1771 with the death of the last Margrave of Baden-Baden. In searching for interesting or valuable web pages for the Links at your companion page, I found the Schoessler Magazine which prints "thumb nail" portions of its magazine articles into its on-line site and has some articles on and pictures of Margrave Ludwig Wilhelm von Baden, known as Türkenlouis, in their current issue. The "nickname" Türkenlouis resulted from his victory leading Empire troops in 1691 during the "Great Turkish War". That victory also may be one of the reasons the Emperor gave the Ortenau lands in fief to Ludwig Wilhelm. The magazine offers both English and German on-line information. The home address for the English version is at < http://www.schloesser-magazin.de/eng/ >. General information on Ludwig Wilhelm and Baden of his time can be found from a click at "Additional Properties" and further clicks at "Site Map", at "Rastatt Palace" and from that page to "Famous Persons" and to "Anecdotes". For information from the current issue about Türkenlouis, a direct URL there would be < http://www.schloesser-magazin.de/eng/quartalsmagazin/magazin.php > although using the links from the earlier pages of this site, into New and Newsletter, would give you the opportunity of finding this page and finding other pages which might be of interest pertaining to other areas and other historic figures of Baden and of Wuerttemberg. The in-site Search capability can lead to numerous short articles of this overall area of Baden and Württemberg djweber [email protected]