Tom, You are probably correct with the thought about elevation. If Wendelin's ISP and Rootsweb ever start talking to each other again, we may get an exact answer. I know that there are many such Nieder and Ober towns in Germany. Probably the Nieder is on lower ground than the Ober. With lands rolling down to the rivers and to the seas, it might be possible that the Nieder town name could be used for the town closer to that water location which could be the cause of my confusion. As to "Nieder" toward the sea and in lower elevation, the only possible example I could think of would be the Niedersachsen Federal State. Lower Saxony reaches the North Sea but the old province of Sachsen and the current Sachsen States are far to the southeast. The upper and lower was something that from the back of my mind seemed to be a comment I had heard once in a genealogical lecture long ago. The elevation sounds much easier to understand than the idea of to and from flowing water. I know that if Ober and Unter are used together for towns, that the Ober is the "upper"/north town and Unter is the "lower"/south town. I have a daughter-in-law who has a line of ancestry from the Schefflenz area of Baden, well north of the Ortenau near Mosbach. There, from north to south on one road, are the towns of Oberschefflenz, Mittelschefflenz and Unterschefflenz. An interesting side comment about that area is that no Familienbuch seems to have been completed but for Oberschefflenz a book on the homes and people who lived in those homes (Häuser und Leute von Oberschefflenz) was published about 1998. So hopefully Rootsweb will soon again accept Wendelin's ISP. djweber [email protected] ------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Fitzsimmons" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: [Ortenau] Nieder and Ober > dj: > > I wonder if the words Nieder and Ober might be translated as "upper" > and "lower". The Ordnance Survey in England and Ireland mapped the > countries here and there are many instances of townlands and other > places named Upper This and Lower This. As you note, the directions > don't seem to come into the reason for the Upper and Lower. Maybe as > you say, it has something to do with being on a waterway, or > otherwise connected with elevation. > > Tom Fitzsimmons.

DJ, Your comment on best maps of Baden-Württemberg being on the scale of 1 : 25 000 and found only in Germany did catch my attention. When I first got started in German research, I was fortunate to find a local map store. Even there, my choice was limited for German maps on a scale such as you described. However, I did find a 186 page paperback map book (which the local FHC has as well), with sections of maps of various parts of Germany on each page - which was largely based on a 1:300.00 scale for all towns, large and small, and a 1:15.000 scale for larger cities. I had no trouble locating both Niederschopfheim and Oberschopfheim on the 1:300.00 scale map which depicts most of Ortenau. Streets on the 1:300.00 scale maps ... no ... but they gave an adequate representation of where the smaller towns are in Germany. It is a map I pull out often when studying ancestry for unfamiliar towns - "Hammond International Germany Road Atlas". I noticed on the back of the book that it was printed in Germany (no surprise!), though the company base out of New Jersey - http://www.hammondmap.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=835 Carol

dj: I wonder if the words Nieder and Ober might be translated as "upper" and "lower". The Ordnance Survey in England and Ireland mapped the countries here and there are many instances of townlands and other places named Upper This and Lower This. As you note, the directions don't seem to come into the reason for the Upper and Lower. Maybe as you say, it has something to do with being on a waterway, or otherwise connected with elevation. Tom Fitzsimmons.

Dick, Adding to Wendelin's comments....and right now his ISP and Rootsweb appear to be at odds. Neiderschopfheim and Oberschopfheim. In a very simple translation Nieder means Low or Down. Ober when used with another word means Upper. We in the States might take this as Ober being north and Nieder being south but we would be incorrect. We should think of the flow of the rivers to the sea and Niederschopfheim is "down" to the sea and Oberschopfheim is "up" from the sea. Therefore Niederschopfheim is north of Oberschopfheim. There may be a more logical explanation than using the flow of the Rhine to describe location; remember I am a dumb American. If you have a map of the Baden area, you can find Offenburg. Hohberg is slightly to southwest. Niederschopfheim is a stone's futher southwest throw from Hohberg. Oberschofheim, a closer stone's throw to Niederschofheim, however, is within the consolidated town of Friesenheim which is slightly to the south, before you reach Lahr. Some years ago German towns started to be consolidated and this continued after World War II. Today one town may encompass what earlier-in-time had been several or more than several separate towns. I would suggest two URLs which might help you in pinpointing these two towns if you do not have a sufficiently-detailed map of Baden. Use < http://www.heavens-above.com/countries.asp >, fill in Germany and the town name. After you reach the page for the town, click on "Nearest Neighbours". You will not receive a map through this search but you will obtain the latitude and longitude as well as the neighboring towns. Also go to the revised < http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/LocTown.asp > web page (I actually wonder if they improved their links as heavens-above was offering more information) but follow through again for your town and here you will have the opportunity for three different on-line maps of your town (each of which can be adjusted for area; zoom in, zoom out) and now this site will also offer nearby towns and it will offer more towns as the distances offered, both in kilometers and/or miles, is a longer distance. You should note a difference in the Latitude and Longitude identified by these two sites, don't worry, from memory I believe one uses Decimal Degrees (DD) and the other uses Degrees, Minutes and Seconds (DMS). Depending on maps, it often is valuable to have both sets of Latitude and Longitude. Another suggestion, but this one will spend your money....see if your local book store has any sufficiently detailed enough maps of the Baden area of Germany. Seeing the current roads and the old valleys of Baden would help you understand how your ancestors went from one place to another. (Mair, Hallwag, Haupka all make some area maps of Germany; Michelin does too. These are mentioned because they might be the cheapest which you could find at a local book store. There are more expensive maps.) Sadly the best maps are, naturally, made in Germany and not available in the States (Landesvermessungsamt Baden-Württemberg, 1 : 25 000). djweber [email protected] ------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Fischbach" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 1:27 PM Subject: [Ortenau] Localities > I'm new to this list. One of my first items, of course, will be to review > the list's archives. In the meantime, can anyone tell me what is [or was] > the difference between Neiderschopfheim (from whence my ancestors > emigrated), Oberschopfheim and the present city of Schopfheim. Were the > first two suburbs of Schopfheim, did they merge to become Schopfheim, or > ........??? > > Dick >

Dick, I don't know if you received this message. Wendelin is having some ISP problems in connecting to Rootsweb. His answer is/was>.. ---------- > Dick, > > the towns Niederschopfheim and Oberschopfheim are neighboring towns. > They belong to different communities: Niederschopfheim to Hohberg (3 > towns) > and Oberschopfheim to Friesenheim (5 towns). > > By chance Schopfheim has the same name. It's located in about 100 km distance > from the other towns. That town has nothing to do with the others. > > - Wendelin > ----- djweber [email protected] -------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Fischbach" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 1:27 PM Subject: [Ortenau] Localities > I'm new to this list. One of my first items, of course, will be to review > the list's archives. In the meantime, can anyone tell me what is [or was] > the difference between Neiderschopfheim (from whence my ancestors > emigrated), Oberschopfheim and the present city of Schopfheim. Were the > first two suburbs of Schopfheim, did they merge to become Schopfheim, or > ........??? > > Dick >

I'm new to this list. One of my first items, of course, will be to review the list's archives. In the meantime, can anyone tell me what is [or was] the difference between Neiderschopfheim (from whence my ancestors emigrated), Oberschopfheim and the present city of Schopfheim. Were the first two suburbs of Schopfheim, did they merge to become Schopfheim, or ........??? Dick

Toni and dj, > > I know your problem is that the filmed Church Registers for Ottenhoefen > start in 1824 and you need earlier years. Logically, there could be, there > should be earlier Church records. I can not tell where to look into which > town but if I were you with a problem at Ottenhoefen, I might gamble on > Kappelrodeck to see if the Ottenhoefen townspeople are listed in its earlier > Registers. the webpage at http://ortenau.genealogy-bw.de/ can maybe answer the question. It says that the Catholic parish received from the parish Kappelrodeck the places: Bachrotte, Furschenbach, Seebach with Grimmelswald, Hagenbruck with Gottschläg and parts of Unterwasser; from the parish Waldulm: Ottenhöfen, Simmersbach and parts of Unterwasser. Maybe the Acher river was the former boundary of the parishes Kappelrodeck and Waldulm. - Wendelin

Tony and Dj, Source, Kirchenbuecher in Baden; Ottenhoefen, k Pf s. 1823, vorher Fil v. Kappelrodeck u. Waldulm, Fil Furschebach, Seebach bis 1933. KB 1824, In Waldulm s 1610, in Kappelrodeck s 1664 Evangelische Filiale von Achern Hope you find your ancestors Rose in sunny Alberta Wendelin Irslinger wrote: > Toni and dj, > > >> I know your problem is that the filmed Church Registers for Ottenhoefen >> start in 1824 and you need earlier years. Logically, there could be, there >> should be earlier Church records. I can not tell where to look into which >> town but if I were you with a problem at Ottenhoefen, I might gamble on >> Kappelrodeck to see if the Ottenhoefen townspeople are listed in its earlier >> Registers. >> > > the webpage at > http://ortenau.genealogy-bw.de/ > can maybe answer the question. > It says that the Catholic parish received from the parish Kappelrodeck the > places: Bachrotte, Furschenbach, Seebach with Grimmelswald, Hagenbruck with > Gottschläg and parts of Unterwasser; from the parish Waldulm: Ottenhöfen, > Simmersbach and parts of Unterwasser. > Maybe the Acher river was the former boundary of the parishes Kappelrodeck and > Waldulm. > > - Wendelin > > > > > > ==== DEU-BAD-ORTENAU Mailing List ==== > List your surnames at the Ortenau Search web site > < http://ortenau.genealogy-bw.de/search/ >. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > >

Toni, Rather than letters.....sometimes they work but too often they don't....maybe you have a chance to do further searching on your own. I know your problem is that the filmed Church Registers for Ottenhoefen start in 1824 and you need earlier years. Logically, there could be, there should be earlier Church records. I can not tell where to look into which town but if I were you with a problem at Ottenhoefen, I might gamble on Kappelrodeck to see if the Ottenhoefen townspeople are listed in its earlier Registers. From a topographical map of the area, there is a direct valley between Ottenhoefen im Schwarzwald and Kappelrodeck. I think that you would have had to have been a mountain climber to have gone to any other larger town. Another, this is merely a gamble; hopefully, someone on this List who knows more about the area can give you a better suggestion for Ottenhoefen but, if not, try Kappelrodeck. Being able to search on your own should bring you more information than a bunch of letters to others of the same surname who probably know little about their family's history. djweber [email protected] ------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward & Toni McCarthy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 9:16 PM Subject: RE: [Ortenau] kinship book / Familienbuch > Wendelin-- > > Thanks for your quick and informative response. I was hoping to find some > info via the internet. I have gone back to Michael (b. > 9/28/1844--d.12/29/1905) and Maria Anna Schweigler GAISER(b. > 5/17/1835-d.9/28/1893)---all in Ottenhoffen. I looked in the Ottenhoffen > phone book, picked 1 name and wrote a letter (via snail mail) and haven't > heard anything as yet. Perhaps it's time to write to another of the 13 > GAISERS listed as living there now to see if they can assist me in going > back further in my Mother's family history. > Toni >

While this subject seems to be a hot one in this Ortenau List, my question is if any of the many members interested in the town of Mahlberg might happen to own the 1977 Familienbuch for Mahlberg-Orschweier. I'm still fighting the ghost of my mother-in-law in trying to learn of her grandparents and Johann Jäger is one of her grandfathers. The only emigrant from Baden whom I have found so far who _might_ fit his 1871 emigration date is listed as Johann Baptist Jäger, "Orschweier, Stadt Mahlberg"; maybe because the son of the emigrant Johann Jäger was a John Ignatius Jaeger, born June 1868, I can mentally picture a Baptist naming a son Ignaz. I have checked the Orschweier LDS Church Registers with no positive results; no Johann is there. I have openings to order the Mahlberg Church Registers and/or to contact the Generallandesarchiv Karlsruhe but before I would take either of those steps I wonder if anyone has the Mahlberg Familienbuch and can see if a Johann Jäger born in July 1843 is identified in the Familienbuch. The only connected family I know of to this Johann Jäger were the son Johann Ignaz of 1868 and twin daughters, Magdalena and Karolina born in September 1870. And, I do realize, this is nothing more than a gamble. djweber [email protected]

Wendelin-- Thanks for your quick and informative response. I was hoping to find some info via the internet. I have gone back to Michael (b. 9/28/1844--d.12/29/1905) and Maria Anna Schweigler GAISER(b. 5/17/1835-d.9/28/1893)---all in Ottenhoffen. I looked in the Ottenhoffen phone book, picked 1 name and wrote a letter (via snail mail) and haven't heard anything as yet. Perhaps it's time to write to another of the 13 GAISERS listed as living there now to see if they can assist me in going back further in my Mother's family history. Toni -----Original Message----- From: Wendelin Irslinger [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 6:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Ortenau] kinship book / Familienbuch Toni, there are 2 history books of Ottenhöfen: volume 1 treats 11th century till 19th century and volume 2 till end of WWII Mostly such books are available in the town halls. And there was an older book with the title "Ottenhöfen einst und jetzt" by Bernhard Meyer. - Wendelin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward & Toni McCarthy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 6:04 PM Subject: RE: [Ortenau] kinship book / Familienbuch > Are there any books on Ottenhoffen that anyone knows about? > > Thanks---Toni Walier McCarthy ==== DEU-BAD-ORTENAU Mailing List ==== List your surnames at the Ortenau Search web site < http://ortenau.genealogy-bw.de/search/ >. ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx

Hello Rose and DJ, Thanks for your responses. Rose, I speak German, so if Erich Strack would like to get in touch with me directly, feel free to give him my e-mail address. DJ, I found the IGI information for Daniel JEHLE on Batch Number 7824220, an extract of a Patron Sheet. It contains only 67 individuals, almost all of them with either the surname JEHLE or KREITLER. There's no source shown that I could contact. Schöne Grüße George

George, My guess is that someone went through the Achern LDS films and copied all the Jehle and Kreitler listings. With unique spelling abilities of those years, the Jehle-Kreitler combination suggests I should scratch my head. The one Jehle who married a Sauer and caused me to learn a little about the Jehle family, Michael Jehle son of Christoph Jehle, was a widower at the time of the marriage in 1798 and his first wife had been Maria Anna Kreutler....but that first marriage produced no known children who lived. Maybe I still might have a chance to learn something about your LDS submitter, if you end up needing that source. We'll see. djweber [email protected]

Toni, there are 2 history books of Ottenhöfen: volume 1 treats 11th century till 19th century and volume 2 till end of WWII Mostly such books are available in the town halls. And there was an older book with the title "Ottenhöfen einst und jetzt" by Bernhard Meyer. - Wendelin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward & Toni McCarthy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 6:04 PM Subject: RE: [Ortenau] kinship book / Familienbuch > Are there any books on Ottenhoffen that anyone knows about? > > Thanks---Toni Walier McCarthy

Hi Jim, > Wendelin - I understood that Dundenheim was a "mixed" > village. There is both an Evangelical and a Catholic > church there. And the OSB references both traditions. > Am I mistaken? you are right. The same with Ichenheim and Schutterzell. And I assume each of these 3 towns had 2 schools. - Wendelin

It's been a while since I posted to the list. I'm still working on the parish registers for St. Mary's Church in Newark NJ, and would like to know if anyone can help with a Daniel JEHLE from Achern, who, according to Census 1860, was 33; he was married to Agnes JAEGER, from Prussia, so I assume they married in the New World. Haven't found a marriage record for them yet in Newark. IGI database has a Daniel, son of Ignatz JEHLE and Regina LORENZ, born 3 Nov 1825 in Achern. Is he maybe identical with the Daniel in Newark? Thanks for your help. George

George, In addition to my being too old to be fast any more, an active five-year old granddaughter keeps me away from my computer a fair number of hours during the day. When I saw your question, I knew I could offer nothing of value and felt that the only person on this side of the Atlantic who might be of aid would be Rose. While the granddaughter has been in my trust today, Rose has already given you her answer. What little I know about the Jehle families is that Achern was a major location for members of the family but I don't know if the family originated in Achern or in Renchen. Both towns have old lines of Jehle families. With those locations so close to my searched-in town of Oensbach where I know some Jehle lines also existed, I checked the Familienbuch for Oensbach and, as expected, neither Daniel nor Ignaz have any trace at Oensbach. Was the IGI listing one of those where the original lister can be contacted for confirmation of details or was it one of those official LDS listings hidden from view of non-LDS members? (Not that I have any faith in contacting a lister for details; I did that a number of times years ago and I found no one who actually knew how, why or what they had done.) djweber [email protected] ------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Meister" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 12:57 PM Subject: [Ortenau] Daniel JEHLE from Achern to Newark, New Jersey ca 1850 > It's been a while since I posted to the list. I'm still working on the > parish > registers for St. Mary's Church in Newark NJ, and would like to know if > anyone > can help with a Daniel JEHLE from Achern, who, according to Census 1860, > was 33; > he was married to Agnes JAEGER, from Prussia, so I assume they married in > the > New World. Haven't found a marriage record for them yet in Newark. > > IGI database has a Daniel, son of Ignatz JEHLE and Regina LORENZ, born 3 > Nov > 1825 in Achern. Is he maybe identical with the Daniel in Newark? > > Thanks for your help. > > George >

Dear George, I would like to help. Since Achern is my hometown, and as a child the religious lessons were given by a Pfarrer Edmund Jehle, he has passed away many years back. It may by he was related to this Daniel Jehle Will write to Mr Strack in Sasbachried, he is the one person who can confirm if this Daniel Jehle emigrated from Achern. I do remember you sending information on different family, I believe from Newmark also. If I hear from Erich Strack< let you know. His is not familiar with english language Rose Goutbeck nee Weber George Meister wrote: > It's been a while since I posted to the list. I'm still working on the parish > registers for St. Mary's Church in Newark NJ, and would like to know if anyone > can help with a Daniel JEHLE from Achern, who, according to Census 1860, was 33; > he was married to Agnes JAEGER, from Prussia, so I assume they married in the > New World. Haven't found a marriage record for them yet in Newark. > > IGI database has a Daniel, son of Ignatz JEHLE and Regina LORENZ, born 3 Nov > 1825 in Achern. Is he maybe identical with the Daniel in Newark? > > Thanks for your help. > > Georg > > ==== DEU-BAD-ORTENAU Mailing List ==== > If you are new to this Ortenau List, please check the Archives to see if any messages have been posted about your surname or your town. > < http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/DEU-BAD-ORTENAU.html >. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > >

Are there any books on Ottenhoffen that anyone knows about? Thanks---Toni Walier McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: Wendelin Irslinger [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 10:28 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Ortenau] kinship book / Familienbuch Carol, one of the reasons why are most kinship books from the Lahr area is that Mr. Köbele (who wrote many books) lived in that area. > Though I've never seen one of these kinship books, it sounds like one that > an e-mail friend I know has for the Furtwangen area. He referred to it as a > "farmer's book", but it sounds the same - one he purchased about 15 years > ago or so, but is no longer available. In it were several pages that I remember I saw such books which contains the history of farms. Yes, farmer's book and house books are also useful for genealogical research. And other history books, too (there is also a history book of Schönenbach). - Wendelin ==== DEU-BAD-ORTENAU Mailing List ==== Pre Napoleonic maps of B-W which include the lands of the Ortenau: < http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/bwsued.htm > < http://www.pantel-web.de/bw_mirror/history/bwmaps/bw_316.jpg >. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Kurt and Wendelin, I checked my OSB Dundenheim but did not find any reference to this marriage. The only surname close to Bungert/Bonnert in the index is Bohnert and that is referenced only once. That is a reference in family no. 1585 to a Magdalena Bohnert who was born in Welschensteinach on 30 March 1909. There are several references to the Marx surname. Most of these are Evangelical families from Altenheim. But again there is no reference to this marriage. Wendelin - I understood that Dundenheim was a "mixed" village. There is both an Evangelical and a Catholic church there. And the OSB references both traditions. Am I mistaken? Jim Weller --- Wendelin Irslinger <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Kurt, > > > Is there anybody who has the Ortssippenbuch of > Altenheim? If yes, I > > would be thankful if you could have a look at a a > marriage between > > Johann Georg Marx and Ursula Bungert/Bonnert, not > long before 1670. > > Children of the couple appear in Zell/Biberach > after 1670 - but no > > marriage and no birth entries of the couple here. > yes Marx and Bonnert are names from Altenheim at > that time. But Altenheim was > a Protestant town and Zell and Biberach were > Catholic towns. > > I didn't find such a marriage in the Ortssippenbuch > of Altenheim. The only > Ursula Bonnert who lived there at that time died in > the age of 20 years in > 1669. > > If they lived in Altenheim and were Catholics they > married perhaps in a nearby > town like Dundenheim. > > > BTW: the only other town Altenheim is located in > Alsace near Zabern/Saverne. > > - Wendelin > > > ==== DEU-BAD-ORTENAU Mailing List ==== > A list of Historic and Current towns of the Ortenau > can be found at > < http://ortenau.genealogy-bw.de >. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search > not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com