Hmmm... haven't seen that very often myself Nivard :) Most PRs I've seen have no ministerial comments at all. Depended on the minister I'd guess. All part of the secret & lies for him not to say anything when the child was born 'early'. Celia Renshaw in Sheffield UK On 4 June 2017 at 13:20, Nivard Ovington via DERBYSGEN < [email protected]> wrote: > > > But if that was the case, the vicar is very likely to record that in the > baptism > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 04-Jun-17 1:16 PM, Celia Renshaw via DERBYSGEN wrote: > >> Yes, and I've also read that once a couple were 'handfast' with an >> expected >> marriage date it was often completely acceptable for sex to happen, >> thereby >> explaining many 'early births'. That in fact a proof that the bride was >> fertile was acceptable all round. Everyone kept quiet about pre-wedlock >> sex >> though, secrets, lies, shame and stigma appearing to be order of the day >> for centuries. >> >> Celia Renshaw >> in Sheffield UK >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Like you I have poured over many a parish register, and have seen all varieties from the whimsical to the downright vicious comments in the margin But when the father is known, and they are a couple I would say most mention that father, sometimes in both names, others as though they were married already But when the father isn't mentioned at all it suggests to me illegitimacy I think a lot of the stories of hand fasting etc are invented much later by people finding illegitimacy in their lines and trying to paper over the cracks For one thing how would they know? there are few if any records for handfasting But you are right regarding the variance in vicars or their clerks in how they recorded events Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 04-Jun-17 1:24 PM, Celia Renshaw via DERBYSGEN wrote: > Hmmm... haven't seen that very often myself Nivard :) Most PRs I've seen > have no ministerial comments at all. > > Depended on the minister I'd guess. All part of the secret & lies for him > not to say anything when the child was born 'early'. > > Celia Renshaw > in Sheffield UK

Well this has prompted me to have a look around! This is what the OED says: "handfasting, n." and "handfast, v." OED Online. November 2010. Oxford University Press. "Old Norse hand-festa to strike a bargain by joining hands, to pledge, betroth" The earliest cited English usage in connection with marital status is from a manuscript of c. 1200, when Mary <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)> is described as "handfast (to) a good man called Joseph <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Joseph>". "?c1200 Ormulum (Burchfield transcript) l. 2389 "Ȝho wass hanndfesst an god mann Þatt iosæp wass ȝehatenn." And this page has interesting stuff too - even though it's from info about Medieval Scotland, it talks more broadly about hand-fasting/betrothal customs: http://medievalscotland.org/history/handfasting.shtml That seems to suggest that betrothal (equiv to handfasting) was normal and indicated consent to sex. I haven't read the book that another lister referenced previously - Marriage Law for Genealogists by Rebecca Probert, but I'm starting to think I should. It probably explains the handfasting/betrothal situation! Celia Renshaw in Sheffield UK On 4 June 2017 at 13:30, Nivard Ovington via DERBYSGEN < [email protected]> wrote: > Like you I have poured over many a parish register, and have seen all > varieties from the whimsical to the downright vicious comments in the margin > > But when the father is known, and they are a couple I would say most > mention that father, sometimes in both names, others as though they were > married already > > But when the father isn't mentioned at all it suggests to me illegitimacy > > I think a lot of the stories of hand fasting etc are invented much later > by people finding illegitimacy in their lines and trying to paper over the > cracks > > For one thing how would they know? there are few if any records for > handfasting > > But you are right regarding the variance in vicars or their clerks in how > they recorded events > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 04-Jun-17 1:24 PM, Celia Renshaw via DERBYSGEN wrote: > >> Hmmm... haven't seen that very often myself Nivard :) Most PRs I've seen >> have no ministerial comments at all. >> >> Depended on the minister I'd guess. All part of the secret & lies for him >> not to say anything when the child was born 'early'. >> >> Celia Renshaw >> in Sheffield UK >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Here's another piece of work on betrothal/marriage customs - many kinds from many locations: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Betrothal Celia Renshaw in Sheffield UK On 4 June 2017 at 13:30, Nivard Ovington via DERBYSGEN < [email protected]> wrote: > Like you I have poured over many a parish register, and have seen all > varieties from the whimsical to the downright vicious comments in the margin > > But when the father is known, and they are a couple I would say most > mention that father, sometimes in both names, others as though they were > married already > > But when the father isn't mentioned at all it suggests to me illegitimacy > > I think a lot of the stories of hand fasting etc are invented much later > by people finding illegitimacy in their lines and trying to paper over the > cracks > > For one thing how would they know? there are few if any records for > handfasting > > But you are right regarding the variance in vicars or their clerks in how > they recorded events > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 04-Jun-17 1:24 PM, Celia Renshaw via DERBYSGEN wrote: > >> Hmmm... haven't seen that very often myself Nivard :) Most PRs I've seen >> have no ministerial comments at all. >> >> Depended on the minister I'd guess. All part of the secret & lies for him >> not to say anything when the child was born 'early'. >> >> Celia Renshaw >> in Sheffield UK >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have in my family where no father was listed on birth or his marriage certificate, his mother was married at the time of his birth He had her married name but no maiden name given on the birth certificate. Took a while to sort out who the mother really was On the 1891 census he was living with a lady who said he was her grandson, but I have been unable to find a connection. However on the 1901 census he was living with the sister of his mother. I have come to the conclusion that I will never know his real father Jen NSW > On 4 Jun 2017, at 10:30 PM, Nivard Ovington via DERBYSGEN <[email protected]> wrote: > > Like you I have poured over many a parish register, and have seen all varieties from the whimsical to the downright vicious comments in the margin > > But when the father is known, and they are a couple I would say most mention that father, sometimes in both names, others as though they were married already > > But when the father isn't mentioned at all it suggests to me illegitimacy > >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message