Hi again Celia It is as you say a Norse custom and there are similar customs in Scotland, both of which are far removed from rural England That is not to say that this type of custom went on in England, try before you buy is an old custom ;-) , of course it did but I believe its often used as an excuse to pretty up someones findings in their research, I would just repeat, how would a researcher today know their relations used this custom, there are few records of same Irregular marriage was common in Scotland right up to 1939 but that is Scotland Lots online on the practice and its romanticised history http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/tying_the_knot_handfasting_through_the_ages.shtml Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 04-Jun-17 1:48 PM, Celia Renshaw via DERBYSGEN wrote: > Well this has prompted me to have a look around! This is what the OED says: > > "handfasting, n." and "handfast, v." OED Online. November 2010. Oxford > University Press. "Old Norse hand-festa to strike a bargain by joining > hands, to pledge, betroth" The earliest cited English usage in connection > with marital status is from a manuscript of c. 1200, when Mary > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)> is described as > "handfast (to) a good man called Joseph > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Joseph>". "?c1200 Ormulum (Burchfield > transcript) l. 2389 "Ȝho wass hanndfesst an god mann Þatt iosæp wass > ȝehatenn." > > And this page has interesting stuff too - even though it's from info about > Medieval Scotland, it talks more broadly about hand-fasting/betrothal > customs: > http://medievalscotland.org/history/handfasting.shtml > > That seems to suggest that betrothal (equiv to handfasting) was normal and > indicated consent to sex. > > I haven't read the book that another lister referenced previously - > Marriage Law for Genealogists by Rebecca Probert, but I'm starting to think > I should. It probably explains the handfasting/betrothal situation! > > Celia Renshaw > in Sheffield UK

All true Nivard, but that's why I pointed out the article I linked described marriage/betrothal customs MORE BROADLY, ie. outside Scotland as well! And I also said the Marriage Law for Genealogists book probably gives the definitive answer. I was hoping there was a lister who owns that book who might take a look for us. I remember someone in the past posting a message, possibly here to Derbysgen, about historical research into the proportion of births conceived before marriage - using the time period between marriage and first baby's birth, if I remember correctly - plus those without benefit of marriage at all. The answer came out at about 25%. So there was a lot of it about. Historians have written at great length about past customs of marriage, birth, death etc so I guess they are getting their material from somewhere - there must be documentary evidence available and I'll take a punt that some of that evidence concerns historical betrothal customs. The original material I read - about how sex between betrothed couples (I used the word handfast, I shouldn't have done, clearly) often included sex before marriage, and that evidence of fertility was welcome - was an authoritative researched text, not just someone romantically imagining it! Celia Renshaw in Sheffield UK On 4 June 2017 at 14:03, Nivard Ovington via DERBYSGEN < [email protected]> wrote: > > Hi again Celia > > It is as you say a Norse custom and there are similar customs in Scotland, > both of which are far removed from rural England > > That is not to say that this type of custom went on in England, try before > you buy is an old custom ;-) , of course it did but I believe its often > used as an excuse to pretty up someones findings in their research, I would > just repeat, how would a researcher today know their relations used this > custom, there are few records of same > > Irregular marriage was common in Scotland right up to 1939 but that is > Scotland > > Lots online on the practice and its romanticised history > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/tying_the_knot_handfas > ting_through_the_ages.shtml > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 04-Jun-17 1:48 PM, Celia Renshaw via DERBYSGEN wrote: > >> Well this has prompted me to have a look around! This is what the OED >> says: >> >> "handfasting, n." and "handfast, v." OED Online. November 2010. Oxford >> University Press. "Old Norse hand-festa to strike a bargain by joining >> hands, to pledge, betroth" The earliest cited English usage in connection >> with marital status is from a manuscript of c. 1200, when Mary >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)> is described as >> "handfast (to) a good man called Joseph >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Joseph>". "?c1200 Ormulum >> (Burchfield >> transcript) l. 2389 "Ȝho wass hanndfesst an god mann Þatt iosæp wass >> ȝehatenn." >> >> And this page has interesting stuff too - even though it's from info about >> Medieval Scotland, it talks more broadly about hand-fasting/betrothal >> customs: >> http://medievalscotland.org/history/handfasting.shtml >> >> That seems to suggest that betrothal (equiv to handfasting) was normal and >> indicated consent to sex. >> >> I haven't read the book that another lister referenced previously - >> Marriage Law for Genealogists by Rebecca Probert, but I'm starting to >> think >> I should. It probably explains the handfasting/betrothal situation! >> >> Celia Renshaw >> in Sheffield UK >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi again Celia At no point did I say that try before you buy didn't happen, on the contrary its well known to have happened throughout time I have the book in question somewhere but see someone else has already checked it But I can see I am annoying you so will leave you in peace ;-) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 04-Jun-17 2:13 PM, Celia Renshaw via DERBYSGEN wrote: > All true Nivard, but that's why I pointed out the article I linked > described marriage/betrothal customs MORE BROADLY, ie. outside Scotland as > well! > > And I also said the Marriage Law for Genealogists book probably gives the > definitive answer. I was hoping there was a lister who owns that book who > might take a look for us.