Can resist adding another "have you checked?..." Is there a chance that the deeds were transferred at different times, but were only filed/registered on the same day? If so, then some of the other things people have suggested might make more sense. If the above is true, then in the early body of the deed, it will say... "Sam...to Bob.... on the 13th of April 1957" but at the end "received (registered), this day, the 2nd of August, 1962"... Just a thought. - Jeff R

Keith, Wonder if you have a "quit claim" deed. You will find the word "quit claim my interest..." or words to that effect somewhere in the body of the deed. Another tipoff is that the consideration will be for a nominal amount--- $1.00 is typical. This is commonly used to divide property among heirs in a estate settlement as well as to clear title. Jan, in Ann Arbor -------------- Original message -------------- > In a message dated 7/23/2004 7:33:34 AM Central Standard Time, > FredRump@earthlink.net writes: > PS I have another question. Does deeding a property back and forth > make any sense to anyone. It seems that in 1950 my place was sold > (deeded) and bought right back again on the same date and time. > Doesn't make a bit of sense to me as to why anyone would do that. > Fred, That is a very good question. I have the same situation in some of my > genealogical data. I am looking forward to the answer. > > Keith of East Texas > > > ==== DEED-MAPPER-USERS Mailing List ==== > Please turn off the "Reply To:" (leave it blank) in your messages. This is > normally not needed unless you are sending from one address and expect to > receive mail at a different address. > > ============================== > You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from > http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/ >

Fred, I have several deeds like this between my father and his father. You probably won't ever find the reasons. The reason they appear to be done at the same time, is they were recorded at the same time. That doesn't mean they were written at the same time. Few people bothered to go to the courthouse to record a deed, unless there was a good reason to do so. (The grantor didn't want to pay taxes, etc.) Teresa Ghee Elliott Any information I give that you can't find in your version of TMG 5.14 is probably due to customization on my part. For Rutherford County TN Cemeteries www.Rutherfordcemeteries.home-page.org For TMG sentences <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rutherfordcemetery/TMG.html> -----Original Message----- From: Fred Rump [mailto:FredRump@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:43 PM To: DEED-MAPPER-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [DMU] Re: DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D Digest V04 #31 On 23 Jul 2004 at 11:55, Teresa Ghee Elliott wrote: > Yes, my parents and grandparents did that all the time. There were > various reasons for doing it. (All legal, I might add. <G>) One good > reason would be each child was given two acres when they married. > Grandpa gave the oldest child two acres when he had his first child. > But suddenly, the last child marries, and grandpa is out of land. The > last child is going to live in the home of the oldest child, who has > now moved to a bigger house on the second set of land. So the oldest > child sells the land to grandpa, who then gives it to the youngest > child. > Yes but these are different people involved, right? My people are identical. In my case the answer is probably behind finding out who these Webster people were who were deeded a property which they then deeded right back. The whole thing was done in one swoop. maybe there was money involved which I should be able to find in either a will or a mortgage. In any case, none of this is critical information to me. It's just that I want to know. Typical genealogist in action trying to solve a puzzle for no particular reason. :-) Fred 26 Warren St. Beverly, NJ 08010 FredRump@earthlink.net 609-386-6846 "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910) ==== DEED-MAPPER-USERS Mailing List ==== To un-subscribe from DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D (in DIGEST mode), send a message to <DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D-request@rootsweb.com> with just the word "unsubscribe" (no quotes)in the text and turn off your signature. ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Let's see, your family deeded land to the Websters and then the Websters deeded it right back? Check a couple of things. Were the names *exactly* the same? Was there one less or one more person? Was one name spelled differently? This procedure was/is used to clear a title or change the names on the title. John Smith and his wife Joan own three acres of property. Joan goes off to hunt lions in Africa, leaving John with several children to support. John never gets a bill of divorcement, but Joan was nice enough to leave him a quit claim deed to the property. John "sells" the property to his trusted best friend/neighbor/brother-in-law Sam Jones for $1. Sam, with the papers right in front of him, sells the property right back to John. John, because he is a smart man, takes the two transactions and the quit claim deed right down to the courthouse and has them filed. Joan is out of the picture and off the title. I can think of a dozen similar scenarios, that are still being done today. I wouldn't want to predict the events here, but this one will do for my creative writing class <G>. Pat (in Tucson) -----Original Message----- From: Fred Rump [mailto:FredRump@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 19:43 To: DEED-MAPPER-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [DMU] Re: DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D Digest V04 #31 On 23 Jul 2004 at 11:55, Teresa Ghee Elliott wrote: > Yes, my parents and grandparents did that all the time. There were > various reasons for doing it. (All legal, I might add. <G>) One good > reason would be each child was given two acres when they married. > Grandpa gave the oldest child two acres when he had his first child. > But suddenly, the last child marries, and grandpa is out of land. The > last child is going to live in the home of the oldest child, who has > now moved to a bigger house on the second set of land. So the oldest > child sells the land to grandpa, who then gives it to the youngest > child. > Yes but these are different people involved, right? My people are identical. In my case the answer is probably behind finding out who these Webster people were who were deeded a property which they then deeded right back. The whole thing was done in one swoop. maybe there was money involved which I should be able to find in either a will or a mortgage. In any case, none of this is critical information to me. It's just that I want to know. Typical genealogist in action trying to solve a puzzle for no particular reason. :-) Fred 26 Warren St. Beverly, NJ 08010 FredRump@earthlink.net 609-386-6846 "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910) ==== DEED-MAPPER-USERS Mailing List ==== To un-subscribe from DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D (in DIGEST mode), send a message to <DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D-request@rootsweb.com> with just the word "unsubscribe" (no quotes)in the text and turn off your signature. ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

On 23 Jul 2004 at 11:55, Teresa Ghee Elliott wrote: > Yes, my parents and grandparents did that all the time. There were > various reasons for doing it. (All legal, I might add. <G>) One good > reason would be each child was given two acres when they married. > Grandpa gave the oldest child two acres when he had his first child. > But suddenly, the last child marries, and grandpa is out of land. The > last child is going to live in the home of the oldest child, who has > now moved to a bigger house on the second set of land. So the oldest > child sells the land to grandpa, who then gives it to the youngest > child. > Yes but these are different people involved, right? My people are identical. In my case the answer is probably behind finding out who these Webster people were who were deeded a property which they then deeded right back. The whole thing was done in one swoop. maybe there was money involved which I should be able to find in either a will or a mortgage. In any case, none of this is critical information to me. It's just that I want to know. Typical genealogist in action trying to solve a puzzle for no particular reason. :-) Fred 26 Warren St. Beverly, NJ 08010 FredRump@earthlink.net 609-386-6846 "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

On 23 Jul 2004 at 16:19, jo wrote: > That is beacuse it could have been sold on auction or default and was > bought right back the same day by some one.. Check the tax records for > this one. ----- Original Message ----- From: <sully@vnet.net> To: > No, no. Bessie Levin had plenty of money with maid and butler too boot. She lived here until her 80s with her maid who was a lifelong companion. Her son then put mom into a nursing home, fired the maid and pretty much stripped the house to bare bones. It was not a nice scene. Fred 26 Warren St. Beverly, NJ 08010 FredRump@earthlink.net 609-386-6846 "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

On 23 Jul 2004 at 17:02, sully@vnet.net wrote: > KDBarnett@aol.com wrote: > > >In a message dated 7/23/2004 7:33:34 AM Central Standard Time, > >FredRump@earthlink.net writes: > >PS I have another question. Does deeding a property back and forth > >make any sense to anyone. It seems that in 1950 my place was sold > >(deeded) and bought right back again on the same date and time. > >Doesn't make a bit of sense to me as to why anyone would do that. > > > >Fred, That is a very good question. I have the same situation in some > >of my genealogical data. I am looking forward to the answer. > > > >Keith of East Texas > > > > Sometimes this was done to provide a clear line of property title. For > example, when several people had owned the property jointly and > conveyed their shares separately in various deeds. > > Kathy of Charlotte, NC There may be something to that Kathy. The first deed has the widow of one deceased Siegmund Levin deeding her property, which her husband had assembled out of 5 parcels over many years, to a Webster party (I'll have to see if she was a born Webster) and then she has it deeded back without mentioning all those parcels saying only something about the land justly deeded to the Websters. On the same day she also purchased a piece of property from my next door neighbor where there used to be a carriage house. So all of this is now together in one lot and then deeded back and forth. I think if I can find out who these Websters are who came aboard for a part of a day, the mystery might clear itself up some more. Fred 26 Warren St. Beverly, NJ 08010 FredRump@earthlink.net 609-386-6846 "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

KDBarnett@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 7/23/2004 7:33:34 AM Central Standard Time, >FredRump@earthlink.net writes: >PS I have another question. Does deeding a property back and forth >make any sense to anyone. It seems that in 1950 my place was sold >(deeded) and bought right back again on the same date and time. >Doesn't make a bit of sense to me as to why anyone would do that. > >Fred, That is a very good question. I have the same situation in some of my >genealogical data. I am looking forward to the answer. > >Keith of East Texas > Sometimes this was done to provide a clear line of property title. For example, when several people had owned the property jointly and conveyed their shares separately in various deeds. Kathy of Charlotte, NC

That is beacuse it could have been sold on auction or default and was bought right back the same day by some one.. Check the tax records for this one. ----- Original Message ----- From: <sully@vnet.net> To: <DEED-MAPPER-USERS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 5:02 PM Subject: [DMU] Deeding property back and forth > KDBarnett@aol.com wrote: > > >In a message dated 7/23/2004 7:33:34 AM Central Standard Time, > >FredRump@earthlink.net writes: > >PS I have another question. Does deeding a property back and forth > >make any sense to anyone. It seems that in 1950 my place was sold > >(deeded) and bought right back again on the same date and time. > >Doesn't make a bit of sense to me as to why anyone would do that. > > > >Fred, That is a very good question. I have the same situation in some of my > >genealogical data. I am looking forward to the answer. > > > >Keith of East Texas > > > > Sometimes this was done to provide a clear line of property title. For > example, when several people had owned the property jointly and conveyed > their shares separately in various deeds. > > Kathy of Charlotte, NC > > > > ==== DEED-MAPPER-USERS Mailing List ==== > To un-subscribe from DEED-MAPPER-USERS-L (in MAIL mode), send a message to <DEED-MAPPER-USERS-L-request@rootsweb.com> with just the word "unsubscribe" (no quotes)in the text and turn off your signature. > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

There may be another explaination on the deeding of land back and forth depending on how the deeds are written. In some cases it is really a mortgage occuring. The land is purchased by person A for say $100. He then sells it to person B for $5. Person B having been the one giving A the $100 in the first place. The title to the land is held by B until the mortgage is paid upon which time the land is released or "sold" back to person A. Usually if you see two deeds recorded together this is a good indicator of the mortgage. Charlotte

There are probably at least a dozen situations I can think of that this happens Many times this has to do with name changes, marital status, divorce, etc. It may involve the same persons and property, but other aspects within the deed may be different. Research to determine family situations may be needed to determine the reason. Although in some cases a reason may be mentioned, this might not be the true cause. Emotional issues may be involved, such as disinheritence of someone not favored. Jeff Owens KDBarnett@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 7/23/2004 7:33:34 AM Central Standard Time, >FredRump@earthlink.net writes: >PS I have another question. Does deeding a property back and forth >make any sense to anyone. It seems that in 1950 my place was sold >(deeded) and bought right back again on the same date and time. >Doesn't make a bit of sense to me as to why anyone would do that. >Fred, That is a very good question. I have the same situation in some of my >genealogical data. I am looking forward to the answer. > > > > > >

The property is a rectangle with a small square added on the lower right hand side. Deepmapper handles the plotting just fine and the example you gave does not have any missing parts or errors. As for the Streets it is a reference for a starting point, in this case it is telling you to go down center st 407.58 ft from where it intersects Farnum st. That is where the first corner of the plot begins. In deedmapper you can add the names of the owners property on the plot which will help you as you add in the neighbors lands. I recommend you do a little reading on the deedmapper web site on platting land as it will give you a better understanding of the process and what the deed is really saying. Charlotte

In a message dated 7/23/2004 7:33:34 AM Central Standard Time, FredRump@earthlink.net writes: PS I have another question. Does deeding a property back and forth make any sense to anyone. It seems that in 1950 my place was sold (deeded) and bought right back again on the same date and time. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me as to why anyone would do that. Fred, That is a very good question. I have the same situation in some of my genealogical data. I am looking forward to the answer. Keith of East Texas

Yes, my parents and grandparents did that all the time. There were various reasons for doing it. (All legal, I might add. <G>) One good reason would be each child was given two acres when they married. Grandpa gave the oldest child two acres when he had his first child. But suddenly, the last child marries, and grandpa is out of land. The last child is going to live in the home of the oldest child, who has now moved to a bigger house on the second set of land. So the oldest child sells the land to grandpa, who then gives it to the youngest child. Teresa Ghee Elliott Any information I give that you can't find in your version of TMG 5.14 is probably due to customization on my part. For Rutherford County TN Cemeteries www.Rutherfordcemeteries.home-page.org For TMG sentences <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rutherfordcemetery/TMG.html> -----Original Message----- From: KDBarnett@aol.com [mailto:KDBarnett@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 11:35 AM To: DEED-MAPPER-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DMU] Re: DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D Digest V04 #31 In a message dated 7/23/2004 7:33:34 AM Central Standard Time, FredRump@earthlink.net writes: PS I have another question. Does deeding a property back and forth make any sense to anyone. It seems that in 1950 my place was sold (deeded) and bought right back again on the same date and time. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me as to why anyone would do that. Fred, That is a very good question. I have the same situation in some of my genealogical data. I am looking forward to the answer. Keith of East Texas ==== DEED-MAPPER-USERS Mailing List ==== Please turn off the "Reply To:" (leave it blank) in your messages. This is normally not needed unless you are sending from one address and expect to receive mail at a different address. ============================== You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/

On 23 Jul 2004 at 7:45, William B Clark wrote: Hi, > It appears that the numbers like 5- are the numbered points along \ > the border where the direction changes. Figured that one out already. :-) > As long as you have a direction and distance for each point, then > DeedMapper will draw the figure. If you are missing one or the other > for any point, DeedMapper doesn't know where the next point so it > truncates the drawing, There are ways to get around this, but it > takes some tedious fussing with the data to do it. I think that will be a problem as I go back in time where they say so many feet to a tree or a rock on the bank of the Delaware river or something similar. But I guess I'll worry about that when I get to it. I really would like to 'paint' the original farm lands and owners of our city as the place is only 1/2 square mile big and it should be doable. I gather that the trick is to have accurate directional degrees on a property description but the program permits entry of "North 85 degrees 10 Minutes West" even though I don't understand what that means? I guess it says in a general northwesterly direction, right? > I don't know what to do about streets, but I see no reason why you > couldn't import a street map into DeedMapper. The problem is which streets? Even recent property descriptions talk about a street which never really existed except as a sort of carriage route into the back of the properties. That street ran through my property and there is a mention of a right of way for others to get through. Today it's my boundary and I removed an iron fence with a big gate in it a few years ago because a tree had surrounded the gate. :-) The gate proved that 'something' was back there for carriages to get into. Maybe it doesn't even matter as all measurements are from the center of only two streets and I can manually enter their curb lines. > If you have a GPS or a friend who has one, you could get one of the > points in Lat/Long coordinates and start from that point in DeedMapper > too. Then you wouldn't need a street map. > > Barry Clark > Fredericksburg, VA Well, if I'm going to spend $99 just to draw my property lines through the ages, I think I can also buy a GPS system if it will help. How would this work? I just stand in the center of two intersecting streets and get a location reading and draw everything else relevant to that? Exactly what does that do for me? I mean no latitudes/longitudes are ever mentioned anywhere and I know where my property is. This is all very new to me but I do want to learn. Fred PS I have another question. Does deeding a property back and forth make any sense to anyone. It seems that in 1950 my place was sold (deeded) and bought right back again on the same date and time. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me as to why anyone would do that. 26 Warren St. Beverly, NJ 08010 FredRump@earthlink.net 609-386-6846 "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

Fred, It appears that the numbers like 5- are the numbered points along the border where the direction changes. As long as you have a direction and distance for each point, then DeedMapper will draw the figure. If you are missing one or the other for any point, DeedMapper doesn't know where the next point so it truncates the drawing, There are ways to get around this, but it takes some tedious fussing with the data to do it. I don't know what to do about streets, but I see no reason why you couldn't import a street map into DeedMapper. If you have a GPS or a friend who has one, you could get one of the points in Lat/Long coordinates and start from that point in DeedMapper too. Then you wouldn't need a street map. Barry Clark Fredericksburg, VA

On 22 Jul 2004 at 21:43, Fred Rump wrote: > Also what is meant by the various numbers such 5- ? Is > that feet without inches? Here's the text: Oh, I see now that those numbers are simply sequential borders. It helps to type this out and look at it from afar. Fred > thence 1- > in a Southwesterly direction along the Western property line of Mario > Farias, South 4 degrees 50 minutes Wast, 225 feet to a stake; thence > 2- in a southeasterly direction along the Southerly line of Mario 26 Warren St. Beverly, NJ 08010 FredRump@earthlink.net 609-386-6846 "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

Hi, I'm considering the purchase of Deedmapper but would like to first ask some users if it will do what I want. Can you help me? I own an old house that goes back to farmland in 1836 and earlier. It is now a city lot which has been enlarged over the years to about an acre with a substantial house on it. It didn't start out that way. I would like to trace the various property changes made to the place to what it is today using overlays via Adobe layers software or even this deedmapper thing in different colors. I have a stack of paper work which has me totally befuddled as to who did what when and why. I need to see this graphically. I typed up in verbatim mode a more recent deed from 1965 and wonder if this verbiage will produce a map of the property with deepmapper? How do streets get into the picture if they are referenced? Also what is meant by the various numbers such 5- ? Is that feet without inches? Here's the text: BEGINNING AT A POINT in the Center line of Warren Street distant 407.58 feet Western from the center line of Farnum Street; thence 1- in a Southwesterly direction along the Western property line of Mario Farias, South 4 degrees 50 minutes Wast, 225 feet to a stake; thence 2- in a southeasterly direction along the Southerly line of Mario Farias extended, South 85 degrees 10 minutes East, 35 feet to a stake; thence 3- in a Southwesterly direction South 4 degrees 50 minutes West, 50 foot to a stake corner to Edward S. Becker and Christopher A. Probasco; thence 4- in a Northwesterly direction along said Probasco, North 85 degrees 10 minutes West 55 feet to a stake corner to Christopher A. Probasco and Douglas C. Peake; then ce 5- in a northeasterly direction and along said Peake's line, North 4 degrees 50 minutes East, 40.50 feet to a stake set for corner of Douglas C. Peake, also in the Southerly property line of Bessie B. Levin; thence 6- In a northwesterly direction along the aforementioned line and also Douglas C. Peake and E. Coates, North 86 degrees 02 minutes 30 seconds West, 113.68 feet to a fence corner, being the Southwest corner of Bessie B. Levin property; thence 7- in a northeasterly direction along the Easterly line of Charles W. Fink, North 4 degrees 50 minutes East, 236.24 feet to a point in the center line of Warren Street; thence 8- in a Southeasterly direction along the center line of Warren Street, South 85 degrees 10 minutes East, 133.67 feet to a point, the point or place of beginning. How much trouble is it to produce a property outline using this data? Thanks for any help with this. Fred Rump 26 Warren St. Beverly, NJ 08010 FredRump@earthlink.net 609-386-6846 "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

Please remove this address from you mailing list. Thanks. > [Original Message] > From: <DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D-request@rootsweb.com> > To: <DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D@rootsweb.com> > Date: 6/27/2004 11:00:39 AM > Subject: DEED-MAPPER-USERS-D Digest V04 #29 >

Whenever you add a new parcel in the Text View it will get plunked down in an arbitrary location in the Plot View. But you don't absolutely have to zoom out, locate it, then drag it to the proper location, though that is certainly something that people do. Whenever you leave the Text View and go to the Plot View the deed you just added is automatically selected (that's why it's pink). So (with a confident air about you) you can simply "snap" it to your current location on the map. Just hold down the left mouse button and the new parcel will come to you, no matter where it's currently located and no matter where you are positioned on the map. If you aren't sure about this you can try the following experiment. Go to the plot view, find a parcel, zoom into it and click on it so it lights up. Move your mouse to a corner of the screen and hold down the left mouse button. The parcel with snap to the mouse. Let go of the button and move the mouse to another corner. Hold down the button and see the parcel snap to the mouse once more. Now try navigating East or West until the parcel disappears and try snapping again. Snapping works over long distances. It works whether the parcel that is selected is visible or not. (If snapping doesn't work it means that no parcel is selected.) Also, many folks aren't aware that they can select multiple parcels (by holding down the Ctrl key while clicking on the parcels), or Select All parcels (via the Edit menu). You can therefore drag multiple parcels as easily as a single parcel. Tip: select a single parcel first, then either select additonal parcels or use the Select All command. The first parcel you select is the one that controls the position of the dragged group. Steve Broyles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter and Connie Bradish" <bradish@attglobal.net> To: <DEED-MAPPER-USERS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [DMU] Using Map with Deedmapper > Hi folks, > A good point is made below by "jgsull". Does anyone know how to > change the place a plot starts out once you get going with some plots, > add a map and find out the plots aren't near where you want them and > have to move all of them? The new plots seem to continue to show up > around where the previous plots were before you moved them. Not having > to zoom out, find the little pink or maroon plot figure and drag it over > to your area of interest on the map would be nice. > Thanks in advance for any ideas... Peter Bradish > > jgsull@comcast.net wrote: > > Sometimes the map shows up in unexpected parts of the entire region. > > Zoom out as far as you can and see if the map is far away from the > > deed plot area. > > > ==== DEED-MAPPER-USERS Mailing List ==== > To un-subscribe from DEED-MAPPER-USERS-L (in MAIL mode), send a message to <DEED-MAPPER-USERS-L-request@rootsweb.com> with just the word "unsubscribe" (no quotes)in the text and turn off your signature. > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 >