This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Davies, Davis, Gildernew, Fellows, Skidmore, Bartberger, Cox Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/HNR.2ACEB/1224.2 Message Board Post: Frank, I am not sure what or where penyr ochr cefn bycham is..however, the words are welsh (celtic) and definitions for the ones I could find are: "Ochr" is a surface at the edge of something such as the side of a building, or the side of a chasm, or the side of the bed, presumably because it is alongside or beside ("wrth ochr") the body of the object. cefn means - back, rear; garden bed; support, ridge There is a Lake called Cum Bycham in North Wales (not sure exactly where but it is referred to on the following web site: http://www.huh.harvard.edu/diatom/Terry/Cheever/CheeverB31B35.htm) penyr is more difficult to find references to, but I did find a few: 1) Pen Yr is some kind of hill/mountain range in Wales. Pictures can be found at: http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/wales_pics/penyr/penyr.htm A map of this area is here: http://encarta.msn.com/map_701607107/Pen_yr_Helgi_Du.html This is very far from Ruabon though. 2) The Welsh Triads as recorded in the Red Book of Hergest, ca. 1425 mention a person named Arnuawn Penyr the Arrogant. Maybe Penyr is something named after this person. 3) there is also mention of Penyr in an act passed in England that authorized the building of a railroad. An excerpt from that act is: "The Llanfihangel Railway Company," and empowered to make a railway from the coal wharf of the Brecknock and Abergavenny Canal, in the parish of Llanwenarth, to the village of Llainfihangel Crucorney, in the county of Monmouth, by or near the Cadvor, Penyr Worlod, Lanforst, and Maerdy, across the Usk, by or through the town of Abergavenny and other places, and to make inclined planes on the line. " 4) Penyr is also a common mis-spelling of the Welsh surname, Penry. 5) There is a Pen yr Ole Wen mountain in Glyders North Wales. There is a lake at the foot of this mountain. 6) There is the Village of Pen yr Heol in Monmouthshire, county of Wales Not sure if this is helpful, but thought I would pass it along. My guess is that Penyr and Bycham describe some landmark and that he died just behind the landmark right at the edge of it. The use of edge would imply, to me, this was a large landmark like a lake or mountain. However, I could find no landmarks in Ruabon that used these names. Jeff