Hi, John and all, Just some quick thoughts below. And boy, do I get mortified when I see my typos in those land extracts I put up! I gotta fix those some day! Regards to all and happy holidays, Pam in CA P.S. John, you're also going to get my copy of this sent from incorrect address, the old "not a subscriber" problem, sorry. ----- John R. Clarke wrote: <snip> Most list the life span of Robert DANIELL, Jr. as 1675-1709 and his son, Robert III as 1700-1739. This latter cannot be right. Look at these three deed entries. There is no way I think they would give the title of "Colonel" or make someone a JP when they were only in their early 20's. No way.. There is something amiss here but I do not know what it is. There is no way these folks could have been confused because this was the only Robert DANIEL show in town at that time. <grin> My guess is this fellow is in his 30's in the 1720's, at least, maybe older. The deed that establishes Robert Daniell III's age is this one that lists him as a minor in 1719 (he and Marmaduke are also listed as under 21 in grandfather Robert's will wr 1 May 1718): 1-16=Ba-37 15 & 16 Apr 1719 Martha Daniel, widow, Berkeley Co., to Samuel Eveleigh and Alexander Parris, Esqrs. of Charleston. Whereas the Hon. Robert Daniel owned a plantation of 549 a. on St. Thomas's Island, Berkeley Co., bounding E on Wando River, W on John Codner, N on Martha Daniel's land, S on Cooper River, on which plantation Sarah Daniel and Robert Daniel, her son live; and whereas Robert Daniel by will dated 1 May 1718 devised the plantation to Martha, and divers controversies and disputes arose between Sarah and Martha; Martha claiming the plantation under will of said Robert her husband; Sarah (in behalf of her son Robert, a minor) claiming the same plantation by virtue of the statute of limitation inasmuch as Robert Daniel, husband of Sarah, only son of Robert the husband of Martha, had been in peaceable possession for 14 years before the making and publishing of the last will of Robert the grandfather; and whereas the parties wish to end the controversy, and Martha desires the 549a vested in Robert the grandson: in consideration of the premises and of the natural love and affection Martha bears Robert the grandson, and for the advancement of Marmaduke Daniel, another grandson of Robert her husband in case Robert the grandson should die without issue; and for other considerations: Martha sold the plantation to Samuel Eveleigh and Alexander Parris in trust for Sarah Daniel until Robert should be 21; then to Robert for his lifetime; after his death to heirs of Marmaduke; lacking such heirs, then to Sarah, mother of Robert and Marmaduke; nothing to deprive Sarah of her right or title of dower and thirds. Several provisoes were added in case the grandfather's will should be contested by Robert and Marmaduke. Wit: William Blakewey, William Billing. Robert Yonge, Register. >>>>>> The son Robert and then grandson Robert inherited the major-league title of landgrave "by right of succession" (in the land deeds), I don't imagine that the title Colonel was any harder for him to acquire, i.e. he really didn't have to earn it or work his way up to it. He was called Col. by at least 1724: 1-60=D-224 18 & 19 Mar 1724 Hon. Arthur Middleton, Esq & Francis Holmes, Sr., merchant of Charleston, as attorneys for Thomas Amory, merchant of Boston, to Noah Serre, planter of Craven Co., lots bounding N on a little street leading from Cooper River to Ashley River by the houses belonging to Col. Robert Daniell, Jonathan Amory & Madam Simons, other bds Noah Royer, Sr., Nicholas Townsend (but in possession of Thomas Pinckney). Actually, it has to be shown that the Col. Robert in the above deed is the grandson of the original Robert, but I think this land is part of the bounds in the following deed (and thus the evidence): 1-67=D-300 17 & 18 Jun 1720 George Logan, Esq. & Martha his wife (late widow of Robert Daniel, Esq.) to Charles Hill, Esq., for £300 current SC money, part of lot #32 in Charleston, fronting 50 ft. on cooper River from the walls of the fortifications down to low water mark. Whereas William, Earl of Craven, Palatine, & the Lords Proprs. on 18 Feb 1680 granted David Maybank the elder lot #32 in Charleston containint 1/2 an a., English measure; & whereas David Maybank the younger, son & heir, by deed poll on 12 Jul 1692 conveyed the lot & building on it to Joshua Wilks; & whereas Joshua Wilks on 3 Feb 1692 sold the lot to George Daresely; & whereas Daresely on 13 Dec 1693 sold to Col. Robert Daniel the lot #32, bounding e on Cooper River; S on a street leading to Ashley River; N on a lot of Mr. Foster of Barbadoes; W on Jonathan Amory; & whereas Robert Daniel by will 1 May 1718 bequeathed to Martha Daniel (his widow, now Martha Logan) that part of lot #32 fronting 50 feet on Cooper River, bounding N Samuel Wragg; S on Mrs. Susanna Porter (widow of Mathew Porter); now Logan sells to Hill & promises that Martha shall within 6 days appear before the Chief Justice & renounce her right of dower. Wit: Francis Lebrasseur, Benjamin Whitaker. Before Daniel Green. Jacob Motte, Register. you wrote: Notice also this Robert DANIEL married Helen LOGAN and she was born some five years before (1695) he was supposedly born (1700). That tells me this Col. Robert DANIELL was born probably in the 1790 time frame (or before) and this would match up with what I am seeing here. I think more than a few dates for these DANIELL kids of Charleston are not exactly correct and some of them may be off by 10 or more years. Based on his minority in 1719, he may have been born as early as 1697, so I don't think the age discrepancy is too out of line. I don't have any documentation of Helen Logan's birth to help or hurt, except that she and Robert were married sometime between 28 Jul 1721 and 3 Oct 1723, if she was born as early as 1695 she'd be a pretty mature 26 years old at her marriage, i.e. I'm suggesting she's born after 1695. Re the death date of Robert Daniel III, husband of Helen Logan, my notes from _Abstract of Wills of State of SC 1670-1740_ by Caroline T. Moore & Agatha Aimar Simmons show the will of Robert Daniel as written 1 Jun 1732, proved 12 Sep 1732, but not recorded until 12 Jul 1739. I don't have notes to explain the lateness of the recording, but widow Helen married her second husband William Trewin on 17 Jul 1734, so the probate date is probably good. Re the 1675-1709 dates of Robert Daniel II, have you been able to determine how people come by that? A Capt. Robert Daniel Jr served in the Yemassee War in 1715 and I don't have proof, but was pretty sure in my notes that this was Robert Daniell II, i.e. died after 1715. The land deeds do not help establish Robert II's death any more than that he was dead by the time his father Robert wrote his will in 1718. As far as a birth of 1675, I do think it was before then, because he was listed as a ship commander on 24 Nov 1693. That is a job that I don't think an 18 year old would have just based on family connections (land dealings and court offices and military titles, yes).

Pam, I have read through all of those SC deeds transcribed by Clara A. Langley for the period 1718-1773 which mention the name, DANIEL, DANIELL, that you posted to the Internet. I well understand what you are saying about inheritance of titles, etc. However, the title of "Landgrave" was only good through the administration of the Lords Proprietors and that effectively ended in 1721 when SC was made SC a provisional Royal Colony and ended, permanently when the Crown bought out the Lords Proprietors in 1729 and SC became a Royal Colony. The reason it became a Royal Colony was because the Lords Proprietors and their agents in SC were nothing but a bunch of nitwits and incompetents that had created such conditions by 1719 where the citizens of SC were practically in open revolt, so the Crown had to do something about the administration of this colony, which they did. The one thing I noticed about Robert DANIELL (1646-1718) throughout not only the deeds in Charleston but the deeds up in New Hanover County, NC is that he is almost consistently referred to as Col. Robert DANIEL, gentleman, of either Berkeley County, SC or Charleston. Occasionally, you will see the name spelled DANIELL but mostly it was spelled, just plain DANIEL. His son, John DANIEL, and other grandsons only obtain the title, planter,with the exception of his grandson, Robert III, who somehow gets the title, Colonel and Landgrave, as you note. For all practical purposes this title ended in 1729 but you will see it also used in later deeds which included this Robert III. The first mention I can find for Robert DANIELL III was in 1721, when he was barely 21, and he was listed as Col. Robert DANIEL, Esq. and listed with a group of other grantors, Vol 1, p 23 of Langley's book. This said, why was he just mentioned as a JP in other deeds? Like the 1721 and 1725 deeds signed before Robert DANIELL, J. P. (Vol 1, pp.105-106). If he was a Landgrave and Colonel, why were these titles not listed in these deeds? I do not know how the civil administration was during that period in SC but usually JP's were elected and not appointed, at least by 1721 when SC became a provisional Royal Colony. It is just kind of hard for me to believe that even during the incompetent administration of the Lords Proprietors they would allow a person barely 21 years old to assume such duties and titles. Maybe that was just one of the reasons the people of SC forced the Crown to "clean house," as they say. Did you know that all Landgraves and Governors of SC under the administration of the Lords Proprietors were required by their charter to be "Palatine?" -- English royalty, of some variety. I wonder where this puts in the greater scheme of things this little coal scratcher from Wales, who supposedly, if you believe the stories about him, "rose from rags to riches?" Are you sure his name was not Horatio? <grin> John R. Clarke Thomasville, GA ----- Original Message ----- From: "P. A. Miller" <gen@pamiller.net> To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 1:28 AM Subject: [DANIEL-L] Re: ages of Robt Daniell kids in Charleston Hi, John and all, Just some quick thoughts below. And boy, do I get mortified when I see my typos in those land extracts I put up! I gotta fix those some day! Regards to all and happy holidays, Pam in CA P.S. John, you're also going to get my copy of this sent from incorrect address, the old "not a subscriber" problem, sorry. ----- John R. Clarke wrote: <snip> Most list the life span of Robert DANIELL, Jr. as 1675-1709 and his son, Robert III as 1700-1739. This latter cannot be right. Look at these three deed entries. There is no way I think they would give the title of "Colonel" or make someone a JP when they were only in their early 20's. No way.. There is something amiss here but I do not know what it is. There is no way these folks could have been confused because this was the only Robert DANIEL show in town at that time. <grin> My guess is this fellow is in his 30's in the 1720's, at least, maybe older. The deed that establishes Robert Daniell III's age is this one that lists him as a minor in 1719 (he and Marmaduke are also listed as under 21 in grandfather Robert's will wr 1 May 1718): 1-16=Ba-37 15 & 16 Apr 1719 Martha Daniel, widow, Berkeley Co., to Samuel Eveleigh and Alexander Parris, Esqrs. of Charleston. Whereas the Hon. Robert Daniel owned a plantation of 549 a. on St. Thomas's Island, Berkeley Co., bounding E on Wando River, W on John Codner, N on Martha Daniel's land, S on Cooper River, on which plantation Sarah Daniel and Robert Daniel, her son live; and whereas Robert Daniel by will dated 1 May 1718 devised the plantation to Martha, and divers controversies and disputes arose between Sarah and Martha; Martha claiming the plantation under will of said Robert her husband; Sarah (in behalf of her son Robert, a minor) claiming the same plantation by virtue of the statute of limitation inasmuch as Robert Daniel, husband of Sarah, only son of Robert the husband of Martha, had been in peaceable possession for 14 years before the making and publishing of the last will of Robert the grandfather; and whereas the parties wish to end the controversy, and Martha desires the 549a vested in Robert the grandson: in consideration of the premises and of the natural love and affection Martha bears Robert the grandson, and for the advancement of Marmaduke Daniel, another grandson of Robert her husband in case Robert the grandson should die without issue; and for other considerations: Martha sold the plantation to Samuel Eveleigh and Alexander Parris in trust for Sarah Daniel until Robert should be 21; then to Robert for his lifetime; after his death to heirs of Marmaduke; lacking such heirs, then to Sarah, mother of Robert and Marmaduke; nothing to deprive Sarah of her right or title of dower and thirds. Several provisoes were added in case the grandfather's will should be contested by Robert and Marmaduke. Wit: William Blakewey, William Billing. Robert Yonge, Register. >>>>>> The son Robert and then grandson Robert inherited the major-league title of landgrave "by right of succession" (in the land deeds), I don't imagine that the title Colonel was any harder for him to acquire, i.e. he really didn't have to earn it or work his way up to it. He was called Col. by at least 1724: 1-60=D-224 18 & 19 Mar 1724 Hon. Arthur Middleton, Esq & Francis Holmes, Sr., merchant of Charleston, as attorneys for Thomas Amory, merchant of Boston, to Noah Serre, planter of Craven Co., lots bounding N on a little street leading from Cooper River to Ashley River by the houses belonging to Col. Robert Daniell, Jonathan Amory & Madam Simons, other bds Noah Royer, Sr., Nicholas Townsend (but in possession of Thomas Pinckney). Actually, it has to be shown that the Col. Robert in the above deed is the grandson of the original Robert, but I think this land is part of the bounds in the following deed (and thus the evidence): 1-67=D-300 17 & 18 Jun 1720 George Logan, Esq. & Martha his wife (late widow of Robert Daniel, Esq.) to Charles Hill, Esq., for £300 current SC money, part of lot #32 in Charleston, fronting 50 ft. on cooper River from the walls of the fortifications down to low water mark. Whereas William, Earl of Craven, Palatine, & the Lords Proprs. on 18 Feb 1680 granted David Maybank the elder lot #32 in Charleston containint 1/2 an a., English measure; & whereas David Maybank the younger, son & heir, by deed poll on 12 Jul 1692 conveyed the lot & building on it to Joshua Wilks; & whereas Joshua Wilks on 3 Feb 1692 sold the lot to George Daresely; & whereas Daresely on 13 Dec 1693 sold to Col. Robert Daniel the lot #32, bounding e on Cooper River; S on a street leading to Ashley River; N on a lot of Mr. Foster of Barbadoes; W on Jonathan Amory; & whereas Robert Daniel by will 1 May 1718 bequeathed to Martha Daniel (his widow, now Martha Logan) that part of lot #32 fronting 50 feet on Cooper River, bounding N Samuel Wragg; S on Mrs. Susanna Porter (widow of Mathew Porter); now Logan sells to Hill & promises that Martha shall within 6 days appear before the Chief Justice & renounce her right of dower. Wit: Francis Lebrasseur, Benjamin Whitaker. Before Daniel Green. Jacob Motte, Register. you wrote: Notice also this Robert DANIEL married Helen LOGAN and she was born some five years before (1695) he was supposedly born (1700). That tells me this Col. Robert DANIELL was born probably in the 1790 time frame (or before) and this would match up with what I am seeing here. I think more than a few dates for these DANIELL kids of Charleston are not exactly correct and some of them may be off by 10 or more years. Based on his minority in 1719, he may have been born as early as 1697, so I don't think the age discrepancy is too out of line. I don't have any documentation of Helen Logan's birth to help or hurt, except that she and Robert were married sometime between 28 Jul 1721 and 3 Oct 1723, if she was born as early as 1695 she'd be a pretty mature 26 years old at her marriage, i.e. I'm suggesting she's born after 1695. Re the death date of Robert Daniel III, husband of Helen Logan, my notes from _Abstract of Wills of State of SC 1670-1740_ by Caroline T. Moore & Agatha Aimar Simmons show the will of Robert Daniel as written 1 Jun 1732, proved 12 Sep 1732, but not recorded until 12 Jul 1739. I don't have notes to explain the lateness of the recording, but widow Helen married her second husband William Trewin on 17 Jul 1734, so the probate date is probably good. Re the 1675-1709 dates of Robert Daniel II, have you been able to determine how people come by that? A Capt. Robert Daniel Jr served in the Yemassee War in 1715 and I don't have proof, but was pretty sure in my notes that this was Robert Daniell II, i.e. died after 1715. The land deeds do not help establish Robert II's death any more than that he was dead by the time his father Robert wrote his will in 1718. As far as a birth of 1675, I do think it was before then, because he was listed as a ship commander on 24 Nov 1693. That is a job that I don't think an 18 year old would have just based on family connections (land dealings and court offices and military titles, yes). ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== DO NOT FORGET: This is a Genealogical Mailing List and the posting of messages that do not relate to the DANIEL Family, its collateral families or those of a historical nature relating to genealogical research -- are not allowed on this list.