I take it John that your are stating your opinions and suspicions, and by the way, what's wrong with Radford, Lenoir, NC, being the birth place of Aaron Daniel? What list of children do you support for Ensign Aaron and Elizabeth Whitfield Daniel? According to Ingersol, page 414, Aaron was born in 1739 and died in 1790 in Cheraw District, SC. I am not a fan of Ingersol so your 1733 may be closer? I would also be interested in the dates of birth you have for the children Thomas Daniel and Elizabeth Lanier? From lovely New Tampa, Florida. Payne "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- Benjamin Disraeli ----- Original Message ----- From: "John R. Clarke" <jclarke@rose.net> To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] 1818 will of James COOPER of Baldwin County, GA > Judy, > That is correct but Duplin and Sampson County, NC were not what I would > consider to be "normal stomping grounds" for the Lanier-Daniels. > Number one, this Moses has to be at least 16 to be witness of a deed and > that puts his DOB as 1749, probably closer to 1744, making him at least of > majority. This puts him as a contemporary of Aaron and not his son. There > is no Moses listed in the will of Thomas and Elizabeth DANIEL, is there? > We also have reports there was an Abraham DANIEL born prior to 1750 floating > around this bunch and that, too, puts him as a contemporary of Aaron and > also not his son. > You see we really do not know when Aaron was born, do we? Some say 1739 > but that is incorrect. He had to be born by 1733 not to be listed as a > minor in his father's 1749 will nor was he listed as a minor in his mother's > 1752 will, was he? That means that he was born at least by 1733, probably > before. > I also always go with the general rule of Southern families, as these > DANIELS were, that parents tend to name their children after a combination > of the given names of their father's and mother's families, with a few vogue > names thrown in from time to time. I also go with the general rule that > Yankee families went more towards Bible oriented given names, due to their > Puritan influence, than did most Southern folks. > Southerners, for the most part, have always gone with tradition, even > then. This does not mean there was not an occasional family where religion > dominated every part of their lives and they would name their children after > biblical characters because there were these occasional families. However, > for the most part Southern families were real big in naming their children > according to tradition and that tradition indicates they will use family > names for their chillen. > There were several Biblical names used in the WHITFIELDS that we know > of, Matthew and Luke, but their other given names are generally family > names. When you go back to the BRYANS, they re-use family names, like > water. There are hundreds of Rachels, Penelopes, Williams and Johns. Even > the WARRENS tended to re-use family names, as best I can tell. > So, when I look at what I would think would be the given names for Capt. > Aaron and Betsy Whitfield DANIEL's kids, I would look at some type of > combination of these names as possible given names for their children. Yet, > we do not see these names used in this family to any degree. That makes me > really wonder about this DANIEL family, assuming we believe the claims of > some of their descendants concerning the identity of their ancestors. > All of these Southern families of this era named their children in an > almost identical fashion. I cannot tell you how many Williams and Johns > there are in my families of this period and these were families that not > only lived right around these DANIELS but also had collateral links to them. > Without a will for either Aaron or Betsy, where their children are > actually named, or some type or other contemporary document outlining this > family to some degree, then what we see in POWG is highly suspect. Our > major problem, today, is not in actually researching these various lines but > in straightening out the mess of early family researchers who did not have > access to the documents we have available to us, today. > What these early researchers did was take "family myth" and force the > pieces of the known puzzle of the time into the holes on the board, whether > they actually fit or not. This is why you see both 10 and 60 year old > females giving birth to children. The problem is -- we now know they > skipped a generation or two in between. > Yet, there are those who will fight to keep their established genealogy, > even with faced with the impossibility of such an assignment, because a > change in that assignment would effect their membership in various > organizations. This is also why we have such a hodge-podge of DNA results > and why some of the stuff we see does not match what we would think because > the person who submitted the DNA was really not a descendant of the person > they think they descend from. > I was talking with a MAY cousin who is trying to track his MAY ancestry. > He got a 24/25 marker match with some fellow in TN but I told him a 24/25 > marker test only indicates they had a common ancestor within the past 8 > generations. I told him as close as he should have been to this person, he > should have had a 25/25 marker match because, at the most, both of them were > only 5 generations removed from their "most recent common ancestor" (MCRA). > I would almost guarantee you that my DNA would give a perfect 25/25 > match with someone from my RICHTER family in Germany if we were descended > from the same common Prussian ancestor, which is only five generations > removed for me. As for Joe's DNA test, he is only 4 generations removed > from Charles MAY born 1778 in Edgefield County, SC which means their MRCA is > located at least three generation beyond that time frame - a GGF of Charles > MAY. This really pushes them back to some time in the 1600's and maybe even > back to the old country, where ever that was. > Take MS Lucy's recent DNA test. She, also, got a 24/25 marker match but > this only indicates this person shared a MCRA at their 5th to 6th GGF level. > Since MS Lucy is only four generations removed from William DANIEL born 1760 > this means their MCRA was William DANIEL's GGF. That, was also a long time > ago. > With a 25 marker test you should get a perfect match (25/25) with any > person with whom you share a MCRA within the past seven generations. In > simple terms, if you and they share, at least, a 5th GGF, you should get a > perfect match. If you share a MCRA beyond that, the match will diminish, > statistically. For most of us, that puts a perfect match well into the > 1600's and I do not think we are searching for information much beyond that, > at least in this country. > > John R. Clarke > Thomasville, GA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Judy Garner" <jpast59@strato.net> > To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 11:01 PM > Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] 1818 will of James COOPER of Baldwin County, GA > > > > Duplin/Sampson, NC Deed Records.....Feb 1765, pg, 186 & 187 > > Aaron DANIEL & wife, Elizabeth to George FRAZIER, both of > > Duplin County, 100ac.for 30 pds. ,near Goshen Swamp, adjecent > > Mathew WHITFIELD. > > Witness: Moses DANIEL, Mathew WHITFIELD, James OUTLAW. > > Signed: Aaron DANIEL, Elizabeth DANIEL > > > > Judy Garner, > > Sebring,FL > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Judy Garner" <jpast59@strato.net> > > To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 7:51 PM > > Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] 1818 will of James COOPER of Baldwin County, GA > > > > > >> Is this Abraham Daniel(1763-1832) mentioned as son-in-law to James > >> Cooper? > >> Abraham married Jane Moore, ca 1796? Their first child was born 1797. > >> He > >> was 33, when he married Jane Moore, so could have been married > >> before.......to the daughter of James Cooper. Abraham is the son of > > Aaron > >> Daniel RS (1735-1790) and Elizabeth Whitfield(1740-1804). > >> > >> Judy Garner > >> Sebring,FL > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "John R. Clarke" <jclarke@rose.net> > >> To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 9:40 AM > >> Subject: [DANIEL-L] 1818 will of James COOPER of Baldwin County, GA > >> > >> > >> > Good Morning, > >> > I thought this was a very interesting will since a James COOPER > > supposedly > >> > married Elizabeth DANIEL, d/o Rev. Thomas DANIEL and Sarah BURNEY of > >> Greene > >> > County, GA. If so, what was an Abraham DANIEL doing on this will as a > >> > son-in-law? We also know COOPER did not die in Greene County, GA in > > 1807, > >> > as some suggest, but Baldwin County, GA in 1818 or so.... > >> > > >> > Also, notice that BARNES listed in this will. That tends to tell me > >> either > >> > that this DANIEL was from Edgecombe or Northampton County, NC. > >> > > >> > However, several interesting points in all of this -- Abraham was an > >> > IOW > >> > DANIEL name, BARNES is an IOW DANIEL collateral and this DANIEL bunch > > sure > >> > looks like an IOW DANIEL family to me, but then, again..... > >> > > >> > <<< > >> > Will Book A, Baldwin County, GA > >> > > >> > COOPER, JAMES 1/21/1812 - 3/2/1818 > >> > Wife: not named > >> > Children: Davis Cooper, Thomas Cooper, John Cooper, Milbry McGintry, > > Nancy > >> > Barnes > >> > Others mentioned: Son-in-law - Abraham Daniel; Nathaniel C. Waller, > > James > >> > Rice, John Gill > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > John R. Clarke > >> > Thomasville, GA > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== > >> > IF YOU MISS ANY MESSAGE: You can easily search the DANIEL List Archives > >> at: > >> > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=DANIEL > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== > >> DO NOT FORGET: This is a Genealogical Mailing List and the posting of > > messages that do not relate to the DANIEL Family, its collateral families > > or > > those of a historical nature relating to genealogical research -- are not > > allowed on this list. > >> > > > > > > > > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== > > Don't forget to change the Subject line of your message when you change > > the subject of a reply message. > > > > > > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== > If you are have any problems receiving the DANIEL List, would like to change your subscription method or email address or you have a suggestion you think would improve the operation of the DANIEL list -- feel free to contact me at any time - My email address is JClarke@rose.net >

Payne, Someone has really cobbled up these notes about Aaron DANIEL. I went to the "hoss's mouth" and looked them up, myself, and he did not join a St. David's Scottish Presbyterian Church, he seems to have joined the St. David's Church, a church of the Church of England. Interesting. What is even more interesting is Aaron DANIEL was not listed in any of the records these sources have listed for him, although the other names, like Samuel WISE,. Jesse COUNCIL, and others, are. The vestry notes are at the bottom of this page. That said, there should be some note of Aaron and Betsy in the vestry minutes of this church which are in the SC Archives and which have also been published by Brent HOLCOLMB. This is just another example of where folks have cobbled up, commingled and, it appears, out fabricated some of the stuff you see about Aaron and Betsy. This is why I have always said, there are those who seem more than willing to fabricate their families genealogy to suit their own needs but it is rather difficult to do so over several other families, as well as when faced with irrefutable historical documents. This information is from the Marlboro County, SC website. : <<< Please note that because the Vestry of St. David's also served the community as a political body (voting, collecting taxes, etc.), early records will contain the names of members of all religious denominations. Minutes of the Vestry April 1768 The following gentlemen were named Commissioners for the Parish of St. David's: Claudius Pegues Charles Bedingfield Philip Pledger James James Alexander Mackintosh Robert Weaver George Hicks James Thomson Thomas Ellerbee Thomas Crawford Robert Alison Thomas Porte Thomas Lide Benjamin Rogers August 1st 1768 The Commissioners met at the House of Mr. Charles Bedingfield. Absent were Thomas Ellerbee, Robert Weaver, James Thomson, Thomas Crawford and Thomas Porte. Declining to act as Commissioners were Alexander Mackintosh, James James and Robert Alison. Elections were held. Elected as Vestry Men: Claudius Pegues, Philip Pledger, William Godfrey, Charles Bedingfield, Thomas Lide, Thomas Ellerbee, Thomas Bingham Elected as Church Wardens: Alexander Gordon and Benjamin Rogers. Durham Hitts was appointed Clerk of the Vestry. Electors were: William Hardwick Duke Glen John Mackintosh John Jenkins Edward Ellerbee John Husbands Thomas Boatright, Senr. Jesse Counsell John Pledger Robert Clary Robert Anderson Benjamin Jackson James Knight Samuel Wise James Thursby Thomas Williams Thomas Wade Leonard Dozier <<< John R. Clarke Thomasville, GA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Payne Daniel" <gpdfla@tampabay.rr.com> To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] 1818 will of James COOPER of Baldwin County, GA >I take it John that your are stating your opinions and suspicions, and by > the way, what's wrong with Radford, Lenoir, NC, being the birth place of > Aaron Daniel? What list of children do you support for Ensign Aaron and > Elizabeth Whitfield Daniel? According to Ingersol, page 414, Aaron was > born > in 1739 and died in 1790 in Cheraw District, SC. I am not a fan of > Ingersol > so your 1733 may be closer? I would also be interested in the dates of > birth > you have for the children Thomas Daniel and Elizabeth Lanier? > > From lovely New Tampa, Florida. Payne > > "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and > statistics." > -- Benjamin Disraeli > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John R. Clarke" <jclarke@rose.net> > To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 8:09 AM > Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] 1818 will of James COOPER of Baldwin County, GA > > >> Judy, >> That is correct but Duplin and Sampson County, NC were not what I > would >> consider to be "normal stomping grounds" for the Lanier-Daniels. >> Number one, this Moses has to be at least 16 to be witness of a deed > and >> that puts his DOB as 1749, probably closer to 1744, making him at least >> of >> majority. This puts him as a contemporary of Aaron and not his son. > There >> is no Moses listed in the will of Thomas and Elizabeth DANIEL, is there? >> We also have reports there was an Abraham DANIEL born prior to 1750 > floating >> around this bunch and that, too, puts him as a contemporary of Aaron and >> also not his son. >> You see we really do not know when Aaron was born, do we? Some say > 1739 >> but that is incorrect. He had to be born by 1733 not to be listed as a >> minor in his father's 1749 will nor was he listed as a minor in his > mother's >> 1752 will, was he? That means that he was born at least by 1733, >> probably >> before. >> I also always go with the general rule of Southern families, as these >> DANIELS were, that parents tend to name their children after a >> combination >> of the given names of their father's and mother's families, with a few > vogue >> names thrown in from time to time. I also go with the general rule that >> Yankee families went more towards Bible oriented given names, due to >> their >> Puritan influence, than did most Southern folks. >> Southerners, for the most part, have always gone with tradition, even >> then. This does not mean there was not an occasional family where > religion >> dominated every part of their lives and they would name their children > after >> biblical characters because there were these occasional families. > However, >> for the most part Southern families were real big in naming their >> children >> according to tradition and that tradition indicates they will use family >> names for their chillen. >> There were several Biblical names used in the WHITFIELDS that we know >> of, Matthew and Luke, but their other given names are generally family >> names. When you go back to the BRYANS, they re-use family names, like >> water. There are hundreds of Rachels, Penelopes, Williams and Johns. > Even >> the WARRENS tended to re-use family names, as best I can tell. >> So, when I look at what I would think would be the given names for > Capt. >> Aaron and Betsy Whitfield DANIEL's kids, I would look at some type of >> combination of these names as possible given names for their children. > Yet, >> we do not see these names used in this family to any degree. That makes > me >> really wonder about this DANIEL family, assuming we believe the claims of >> some of their descendants concerning the identity of their ancestors. >> All of these Southern families of this era named their children in an >> almost identical fashion. I cannot tell you how many Williams and Johns >> there are in my families of this period and these were families that not >> only lived right around these DANIELS but also had collateral links to > them. >> Without a will for either Aaron or Betsy, where their children are >> actually named, or some type or other contemporary document outlining >> this >> family to some degree, then what we see in POWG is highly suspect. Our >> major problem, today, is not in actually researching these various lines > but >> in straightening out the mess of early family researchers who did not >> have >> access to the documents we have available to us, today. >> What these early researchers did was take "family myth" and force the >> pieces of the known puzzle of the time into the holes on the board, > whether >> they actually fit or not. This is why you see both 10 and 60 year old >> females giving birth to children. The problem is -- we now know they >> skipped a generation or two in between. >> Yet, there are those who will fight to keep their established > genealogy, >> even with faced with the impossibility of such an assignment, because a >> change in that assignment would effect their membership in various >> organizations. This is also why we have such a hodge-podge of DNA > results >> and why some of the stuff we see does not match what we would think > because >> the person who submitted the DNA was really not a descendant of the >> person >> they think they descend from. >> I was talking with a MAY cousin who is trying to track his MAY > ancestry. >> He got a 24/25 marker match with some fellow in TN but I told him a 24/25 >> marker test only indicates they had a common ancestor within the past 8 >> generations. I told him as close as he should have been to this person, > he >> should have had a 25/25 marker match because, at the most, both of them > were >> only 5 generations removed from their "most recent common ancestor" > (MCRA). >> I would almost guarantee you that my DNA would give a perfect 25/25 >> match with someone from my RICHTER family in Germany if we were descended >> from the same common Prussian ancestor, which is only five generations >> removed for me. As for Joe's DNA test, he is only 4 generations removed >> from Charles MAY born 1778 in Edgefield County, SC which means their MRCA > is >> located at least three generation beyond that time frame - a GGF of > Charles >> MAY. This really pushes them back to some time in the 1600's and maybe > even >> back to the old country, where ever that was. >> Take MS Lucy's recent DNA test. She, also, got a 24/25 marker match > but >> this only indicates this person shared a MCRA at their 5th to 6th GGF > level. >> Since MS Lucy is only four generations removed from William DANIEL born > 1760 >> this means their MCRA was William DANIEL's GGF. That, was also a long > time >> ago. >> With a 25 marker test you should get a perfect match (25/25) with any >> person with whom you share a MCRA within the past seven generations. In >> simple terms, if you and they share, at least, a 5th GGF, you should get >> a >> perfect match. If you share a MCRA beyond that, the match will diminish, >> statistically. For most of us, that puts a perfect match well into the >> 1600's and I do not think we are searching for information much beyond > that, >> at least in this country. >> >> John R. Clarke >> Thomasville, GA >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Judy Garner" <jpast59@strato.net> >> To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 11:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] 1818 will of James COOPER of Baldwin County, GA >> >> >> > Duplin/Sampson, NC Deed Records.....Feb 1765, pg, 186 & 187 >> > Aaron DANIEL & wife, Elizabeth to George FRAZIER, both of >> > Duplin County, 100ac.for 30 pds. ,near Goshen Swamp, adjecent >> > Mathew WHITFIELD. >> > Witness: Moses DANIEL, Mathew WHITFIELD, James OUTLAW. >> > Signed: Aaron DANIEL, Elizabeth DANIEL >> > >> > Judy Garner, >> > Sebring,FL >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Judy Garner" <jpast59@strato.net> >> > To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 7:51 PM >> > Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] 1818 will of James COOPER of Baldwin County, GA >> > >> > >> >> Is this Abraham Daniel(1763-1832) mentioned as son-in-law to James >> >> Cooper? >> >> Abraham married Jane Moore, ca 1796? Their first child was born >> >> 1797. >> >> He >> >> was 33, when he married Jane Moore, so could have been married >> >> before.......to the daughter of James Cooper. Abraham is the son of >> > Aaron >> >> Daniel RS (1735-1790) and Elizabeth Whitfield(1740-1804). >> >> >> >> Judy Garner >> >> Sebring,FL >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "John R. Clarke" <jclarke@rose.net> >> >> To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 9:40 AM >> >> Subject: [DANIEL-L] 1818 will of James COOPER of Baldwin County, GA >> >> >> >> >> >> > Good Morning, >> >> > I thought this was a very interesting will since a James COOPER >> > supposedly >> >> > married Elizabeth DANIEL, d/o Rev. Thomas DANIEL and Sarah BURNEY of >> >> Greene >> >> > County, GA. If so, what was an Abraham DANIEL doing on this will as > a >> >> > son-in-law? We also know COOPER did not die in Greene County, GA in >> > 1807, >> >> > as some suggest, but Baldwin County, GA in 1818 or so.... >> >> > >> >> > Also, notice that BARNES listed in this will. That tends to tell me >> >> either >> >> > that this DANIEL was from Edgecombe or Northampton County, NC. >> >> > >> >> > However, several interesting points in all of this -- Abraham was an >> >> > IOW >> >> > DANIEL name, BARNES is an IOW DANIEL collateral and this DANIEL >> >> > bunch >> > sure >> >> > looks like an IOW DANIEL family to me, but then, again..... >> >> > >> >> > <<< >> >> > Will Book A, Baldwin County, GA >> >> > >> >> > COOPER, JAMES 1/21/1812 - 3/2/1818 >> >> > Wife: not named >> >> > Children: Davis Cooper, Thomas Cooper, John Cooper, Milbry McGintry, >> > Nancy >> >> > Barnes >> >> > Others mentioned: Son-in-law - Abraham Daniel; Nathaniel C. Waller, >> > James >> >> > Rice, John Gill >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > John R. Clarke >> >> > Thomasville, GA >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== >> >> > IF YOU MISS ANY MESSAGE: You can easily search the DANIEL List > Archives >> >> at: >> >> > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=DANIEL >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== >> >> DO NOT FORGET: This is a Genealogical Mailing List and the posting of >> > messages that do not relate to the DANIEL Family, its collateral > families >> > or >> > those of a historical nature relating to genealogical research -- are > not >> > allowed on this list. >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== >> > Don't forget to change the Subject line of your message when you change >> > the subject of a reply message. >> > >> >> >> >> ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== >> If you are have any problems receiving the DANIEL List, would like to > change your subscription method or email address or you have a suggestion > you think would improve the operation of the DANIEL list -- feel free to > contact me at any time - My email address is JClarke@rose.net >> > > > > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== > If you are have any problems receiving the DANIEL List, would like to > change your subscription method or email address or you have a suggestion > you think would improve the operation of the DANIEL list -- feel free to > contact me at any time - My email address is JClarke@rose.net > >