Jack, I think you read my message wrong. I am not in the least bit paranoid at what MyFamily has done. However, I think something needs to be done in a court of law about what they have done. Not so much because of their purported copyright of our family information but because of their violation of monopoly statues and their protection of our family information -- privacy issues. I also do not know where anyone gets the idea they hold copyrights to public information. They do not. They may hold copyrights to how they laid out this information in their published material but they do not hold copyrights to any public information. That, is non-copyrightable. The key to copyright infringement is 17 CFR 502 but there are two words which are the kickers -- for "gain or profit" and never forget those two words. However, even that is un-enforceable unless you are willing to put 25K, at a minimum, up front, to even begin proceedings for copyright infringement. As the AAJ of the US told me -- it is a civil matter and not a criminal matter. This all began in 1999 when an NPO stole 56 million bytes of copyrighted information from me and Eric HOLDER, then the AAJ of the US would do nothing about it, even though it was clearly evident they stole it for gain and profit, which should have fallen under the criminal states, 18 CFR 502. So, if anyone ever mentions the word, copyright, around you, tell them it is not worth the paper it is written on. My fear is not what MyFamily and its subordinate companies will do with this information. My fear is what others may be able to do with it. This is why safeguards need to be implemented by MyFamily to protect the privacy of such information from its commercial use by others. You, Jack BUTLER, whether you believe it or not, are the sum total of all of your ancestors and if someone else know them, they have a pretty good idea about you. We are not a complete product of our environment, as sociologists just love to state. Yes, our environment may ameliorate certain family tendencies and it may aggravate others but overall, we are very much like our parents, good or bad, whichever the case may be. My family trait is in PO'ing certain people and this is a family trait of long standing, which is why there are lots of attorneys and journalist in my bunch. I also guess this trait evolved from generations of leading the pack instead of following it. That's the one thing I have noticed when leading the pack, there always seem to be those who like to snap at your heels along the way. <grin> John R. Clarke Thomasville, GA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack V Butler" <JackVButler@comcast.net> To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] Ancestry.com charging for One World Tree > Er....so what? I don't get the point. You can own the copyright to a > certain presentation - If I collected all of the same records and > published > them in a book, I would own the copyright to the book . You could not > make > wholesale copies of my collected work without my permission. > > But I would not, in any way, own the records or the data that was found in > them - just my own personal work in collecting, formatting, and publishing > them. You are apparently annoyed that the LDS went to the trouble to > microfilm great volumes of state and county records when the State itself > was unwilling to perform the task. Speak to your government about that. > > The Mormons chase genealogy because it fits into their religion - and all > amateur genealogists have benefited from that fact because they share that > information at a very small cost. I don't give a hoot about their - or > anyone else's - religion, since I find them all to be pretty much equally > silly. But I am happy to make use of the records that they have > collected. > Fortunately, I have never even been asked about my voluminous copies. > > As for John's paranoia about the LDS collecting all of our personal family > history information - well, if it is more than two generations back, it > almost certainly isn't our personal info - it probably belongs to a lot of > people. And why should I care if they find out who my great great > grandfather was? They going to use it in magic spells or something? > > If Alabama chooses not to make such records available, why don't you get > the > genealogists there together (we are a formidable group when massed > together) > and ask them to do so. The Florida State Archives makes many such records > available - including some from neighboring states. > > Like I said, guys, the records are still out there waiting for you - in > those dusty courthouse basements and other archives (and if you think > Monroe > County's courthouse basement is dirty, try Dale or Geneva, where the > county > records have been flooded out multiple times). No one will force you to > use > those made available in more convenient format - but I think that you are > silly not to. And that is pretty much all that I have to say on this > subject - I am not interested in trying to talk anyone into taking > advantage > of easily used resources. > > Jack > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ruth Newlan" <ruthann@saw.net> > To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:59 PM > Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] Ancestry.com charging for One World Tree > > >> Jack: >> >> There is something to John's statement. I've used the LSD Films > extensively >> over the last few years to research Monroe Co., AL court records. After >> ordering a number of films and taking a great number of prints off the >> films - I was reminded by the center's Librarian of the Family History >> Center's Strict Copyright policy. They feel that when they have filmed >> records that they own the copyright on them. And, likewise you will not > find >> the same records recorded in any type of media in the AL State Archives. >> >> Yes, the original records are still in the basement of the old Monroe >> Courthouse - now Heritage Museum. And, by asking the right person, I >> understand that folks can still go down and prowl through the dusty > records >> in a dirty basement. It appears that the State of AL upholds the LSD >> copyright. >> >> As you know, I love sharing what I have on my families lines and do it >> freely (and that's the key word - FREELY). I've spent a good dime on my >> research as many of you have. And, anyone with a little ambition will > know >> all that I know by reading on the Internet - I post to lists very often. >> >> And, talk about some cobbeled up histories that will be the results! If > my >> families get cobbled up - I'd rather have done it myself ;>) >> Just my two cents - Ruth in Portland, OR >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jack V Butler" <JackVButler@comcast.net> >> To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 7:07 PM >> Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] Ancestry.com charging for One World Tree >> >> >> > One entity controlling all of the genealogical information? Are you >> > tripping, John? The information is still out there, in the State >> Archives, >> > the Courthouses, in the Churches, the City Halls. Believe me, I have > gone >> > and found it there. Been to the National Archives, too. All of that > cost >> > me a whole lot of money in travel, lodging and meals on the road - and >> most >> > of it was fishing trips, going to where I THOUGHT that I might find my >> > ancestors records. >> > >> > Now, I pay a little money and sit in the convenience of my own home, in > a >> > comfortable chair, with my shoes off, while I look at scans of original >> > census records at 10:00 p.m. at night. In short, I pay for the >> convenience >> > of easy multiple searches and of ease of delivery. I don't HAVE to go > to >> > these sources, I could go back and do it the old way - indeed, I often > do. >> > But now I almost always have much better leads when I go to a >> > courthouse >> > because I have often found a transcript or original record to point me > in >> > the right direction. >> > >> > Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against free resources - I have >> > volunteered to digitize records for several county sites and will > probably >> > do so again. But I certainly don't begrudge the fees that I pay to the >> > folks who went to the trouble to collect into a single location large >> > quantities of the kind of records that I want to see. >> > >> > Nobody is forced to use the subscription services - but I cannot >> > imagine >> why >> > they wouldn't. >> > >> > Jack Butler >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "John R. Clarke" <jclarke@rose.net> >> > To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:46 PM >> > Subject: Re: [DANIEL-L] Ancestry.com charging for One World Tree >> > >> > >> > > Bill, >> > > I am sorry but I have always felt that genealogical information >> > belongs >> > > to the families involved and not some commercial entity. I do not > think >> > you >> > > have ever seen this old boy recommend resorting to a professional >> > > genealogist, have you? >> > > Maybe it takes me a little longer than by paying some person to >> > > do >> > this >> > > work for me but the "thrill of the chase" is as important as the end >> > results >> > > of that chase. Plus, I have made lots of friends in the process, >> persons >> > > that I never would have known, otherwise. >> > > As for the LDS Church owning most of everything as relates to the >> > > genealogical records of this nation, I have real problems with that > and >> > not >> > > just because of privacy issues, either. Employers, insurance > companies, >> >> > > etc.do not have to have your medical records, they can get a lot of >> > > information about you and your family strictly from the history of > your >> > > family, e.g. their typical life spans, their cause of death, etc. >> > Normally, >> > > this information is pretty well protected because these entities do > not >> > know >> > > your family history but put it all in one location and watch out. >> > > Let >> > them >> > > get a hold of your DNA information and really watch out. >> > > Here we have a tax exempt organization, the LDS Church, using tax >> > exempt >> > > NPO's, like Rootsweb and probably Ancestry, to increase their overall >> > wealth >> > > through commercialization and not having to pay corporate taxes on >> > > any >> of >> > > it. Now, do you understand why members of this church are the > richest >> of >> > > any organized religion in this country -- they use our tax laws to > their >> > > benefit. I guess you could say, they are also a whole lot smarter > than >> > the >> > > rest of us in this regard. >> > > I did not know they were in the gaming and casino business until >> > > I >> was >> > > in Las Vegas covering the Shot Show for my publication a few years >> > > ago >> and >> > > read in their local paper an investigative report done one of their >> staff >> > > writers on this matter. It really surprised me, too, because I never >> > > associated any organized religion with this type of business. I also >> > assume >> > > you know they also own Novell and Word Perfect, or did at one time. >> > > In this country we have laws to protect each of our individual >> > religious >> > > beliefs or even to protect us from religion if you believe some, but > to >> > have >> > > one specific religious body controlling all of the genealogical >> > information >> > > of this country, I find appalling. I also feel that government will >> > sooner >> > > or later step in because of the privacy issues involved. >> > > It is one thing to be a repository of historical facts, as they > are >> > and >> > > have been, but it is quite another to be able to tie all of these >> > historical >> > > facts, together, as we easily do for them. When you put "historical >> > facts" >> > > and the links that tie them to specific families, as is the case with >> any >> > > GEDCOMS you submit to them, and put all of this under a religious >> > umbrella, >> > > then you have created the situation where your family information can > be >> > > sold to other parties, parties you never intended to have that family >> > > information....... >> > > >> > > John R. Clarke >> > > Thomasville, GA >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Bill Brewer" <wwb@ix.netcom.com> >> > > To: <DANIEL-L@rootsweb.com> >> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 8:37 PM >> > > Subject: [DANIEL-L] Ancestry.com charging for One World Tree >> > > >> > > >> > > > This whole discussion is getting a little silly. Yes, Ancestry.com >> > > > collects information, which they then turn around and sell. What >> > > > do >> you >> > > > expect? Do you think any company, or anyone else for that matter, >> would >> > > > do your research for you for free? What do you think professional >> > > > genealogists have been doing for years? They have been collecting >> > > > information and selling it to you. >> > > > >> > > > Personally, I have submitted my information to World Connects. I > sent >> > it >> > > > prior to Ancestry taking over Rootsweb, but I have continued to > update >> > it >> > > > since, and will continue to do so. I have benefited immensely by >> > > > so >> > doing >> > > > in that mistakes have been corrected, and I have found many new >> friends >> > > > and relatives researching the same line. My research has expanded > by >> > > > leaps and bounds. >> > > > >> > > > While we're on the subject, have you ever wondered why Ancestry >> > > > took >> > over >> > > > Rootsweb? We, the genealogical public, never supported Rootsweb >> > strongly >> > > > enough for it to survive as a non-profit organization. It depended > on >> > our >> > > > contributions, both money and data. I contributed both, but not >> enough >> > of >> > > > us supported them monetarily. >> > > > >> > > > As to Ancestry having no competitors...What about GenCircles, >> > > > Family >> > Tree >> > > > Maker, GenServe, National Genealogical Society, etc., etc.? There > are >> > > > many sources out there, Ancestry is just one, and they have never >> forced >> > > > anyone to contribute to their data bases. If you don't want to > share >> > your >> > > > "hard-earned data" with them, don't. I have and will continue to >> > > > do >> so. >> > > > We'll see who benefits the most in the long run. >> > > > >> > > > Finally, no, I didn't know the owners of Ancestry were the biggest >> > owners >> > > > of gambling enterprises on the strip in Las Vegas, and now that I > have >> > > > been told, my next question is...so what? What does that have to >> > > > do >> > with >> > > > anything? >> > > > >> > > > Do we really want to go back to the "good old days," where we each > had >> > to >> > > > travel to the countless archives scattered around the country (not > to >> > > > mention the world)? In my humble opinion, the answer is a > resounding >> > > > "NO!" >> > > > >> > > > Bill >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== >> > > > Going on Vacation for longer than 5 days? Please unsubscribe >> > > > Click on the following link and your message is ready to send >> > > > Mail Mode: >> > > > mailto:DANIEL-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe >> > > > or- >> > > > Digest Mode: >> > > > mailto:DANIEL-D-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== >> > > Going on Vacation for longer than 5 days? Please unsubscribe >> > > Click on the following link and your message is ready to send >> > > Mail Mode: >> > > mailto:DANIEL-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe >> > > or- >> > > Digest Mode: >> > > mailto:DANIEL-D-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe >> > > >> > >> > >> > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== >> > IF YOU MISS ANY MESSAGE: You can easily search the DANIEL List Archives >> at: >> > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=DANIEL >> > >> >> >> ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== >> IF YOU MISS ANY MESSAGE: You can easily search the DANIEL List Archives > at: >> http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=DANIEL >> > > > ==== DANIEL Mailing List ==== > If you are have any problems receiving the DANIEL List, would like to > change your subscription method or email address or you have a suggestion > you think would improve the operation of the DANIEL list -- feel free to > contact me at any time - My email address is JClarke@rose.net >