well........ya know.....this is becoming more and more confusing Great grandpa's name was at least SOMETHING like Wenzel......maybe they could not spell because they were illiterate, so they decided to spell the name how it SOUNDED rather than the actual spelling?????? I do think though that the name was Germanicized when they arrived in America, to take away the Czech/Austrian influence. I mean being that Great grandpa disavowed any connection with the Austrian Empire when he (supposedly it was he, but not sure anymore) signed his naturalization papers.... --- [email protected] wrote: > Wenzel is the German form of Vaclav. > > -----Original Message----- > From: john <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 22:15:11 -0500 > Subject: Re: [CZ] John > > Ok As for MY case, my great grandfather was born > Vaclav, at least > according to the immigrant passenger ship record > from the SS Frisia, > which is the ship on which my great grandparents and > two of their four > sons came to America. ANYWAY, that being said, great > grandpa's name > eventually changed to Wincel, when he was in > America. Just a little > tidbit from my Wisconsin roots. > John in Michigan > > J. Pecenka wrote: > > > Hi, Mark. > > > > The Czech List archives provide ample evidence > of differing points > of > view on the translation of Vaclav. I think all > would agree that > those > who were named Vaclav had the right upon > arrival in this > country, to > choose to be called by whatever name > pleased them, or by > a name chosen > for them by some Ellis Island clerk > or someone else. > Many Vaclavs > chose the name James. That was a > matter of personal > choice and history. > > > > As a matter of fact and academic sources, > however, Vaclav continues > to > translate to Wenceslaus (as in the Christmas > carol about Good King > > Wenceslaus) in both German and English. > > > > As noted to you by others, John translates to > the Czech "Jan," > > pronounced as the "yon" in yonder (a few degrees of > separation from > > yawn). > > > > Joe > > DeKalb, IL > > > > Mark Allen wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Friends, > >> > >> > >> > >> As Vaclav translates from Bohemian to English as > James what does > >> > >> John in English translate back into Bohemian? > >> > >> > >> > >> Is John considered John in both? Is there a > spelling variation? > >> > >> (i.e. Jon vs. John?) > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks for any help. > >> > >> > >> > >> Mark Zapotocky > >> > >> > >> > >> Researching the Zapotocky and Labruska surnames > in Belleville, IL > >> > >> beginning 1908. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > >> Czech Message Boards are at > >> > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > > > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > > If you'd like to search our archives, please > visit > > > http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CZECH > > > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > All matters pertaining to list administration are > exclusively > handled by the List Administrator. If you have > personal > problems, questions or suggestions about list mail > send an > email to the administrator. The subject is not > appropriate > for list discussion. > > > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list click on > mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe > (list mode) or > mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe > (digest mode) > Contact [email protected] for list related > problems > For the CZECH-L archives, go to > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/czech > >

John, I had the same situation as you did as my great grandfather was born and raised in Bohemia as Vaclav. When he was preparing to emigrate in 1880, he obtained an official birth record that I still hold that clearly identifies him as Vaclav. About two weeks later he obtained a Reise-Pass that listed him as Wenzl. When he arrived in New York, he signed a "Declaration of Intent" paper that listed him as Wencl. The document he received in 1887 declaring him a U.S. citizen also gave his name as Wenzl. However, beginning earlier in the 1880's, he started appearing in the St. Louis Directory as William. Marriages in 1882 and 1886 at a Catholic "Czech" church identified him as Wenceslaus. He began appearing in St. Louis census in 1900 as William/Wm. and in 1914, he signed adoption papers for two of his orphaned grandchildren, listing himself as Vaclav - though in another legal document as Wenceslaus. When he died, a "funeral card" listed him as William, and his tombstone listed him as William as well, which was the "accepted name" in St. Louis for Wenceslaus - whether it be "academically incorrect" for some or not - that was a fact. I have all the original documents as proof. The spelling of Wenzl varied from that to Wenzel and Venzl, but the spelling of his last name varied even moreso. I think people just spelled names the best as they knew how. Look at how many spelling errors are made in names today! I was told that Wenzl was the German form of Vaclav/Wenceslaus, and presumed that since my great grandfather departed from Bremen that a German version of his name would have been more appropriate in his travels as the majority on the boat were German. As well, he might have been bilingual as he was from the southern part of Bohemia and I was told that the further south, the more German was included in the schools as a requirement. What I would like to know if where the Reise-Pass was obtained. Would that have been in his own town in "Bohemia", or more in a centrally located place? If that was the case, perhaps that centrally located area was so close to the German border that the German form of Vaclav was given. Another point to bring up ..... just how many immigrants actually named their offspring by Vaclav or Wenceslaus. The name William was carried on in our family, but not what was considered the "Czech" or "German" version of the name. Possibly the Czech name versions were retained for a while as I'm sure their native languages were spoken in the homes for quite sometime, but my guess if that the longer they were in the United States, the more quickly they became Americanized, and to what degree that was depended on where they settled. That's why you get some claiming James while others claimed William as the Americanized version of Vaclav/Wenceslaus. Carol Rogers -----Original Message----- From: john dvorak [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CZ] John well........ya know.....this is becoming more and more confusing Great grandpa's name was at least SOMETHING like Wenzel......maybe they could not spell because they were illiterate, so they decided to spell the name how it SOUNDED rather than the actual spelling?????? I do think though that the name was Germanicized when they arrived in America, to take away the Czech/Austrian influence. I mean being that Great grandpa disavowed any connection with the Austrian Empire when he (supposedly it was he, but not sure anymore) signed his naturalization papers.... --- [email protected] wrote: > Wenzel is the German form of Vaclav. > > -----Original Message-----J > From: john <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 22:15:11 -0500 > Subject: Re: [CZ] John > > Ok As for MY case, my great grandfather was born > Vaclav, at least > according to the immigrant passenger ship record > from the SS Frisia, > which is the ship on which my great grandparents and > two of their four > sons came to America. ANYWAY, that being said, great > grandpa's name > eventually changed to Wincel, when he was in > America. Just a little > tidbit from my Wisconsin roots. > John in Michigan > > J. Pecenka wrote: > > > Hi, Mark. > > > > The Czech List archives provide ample evidence > of differing points > of > view on the translation of Vaclav. I think all > would agree that > those > who were named Vaclav had the right upon > arrival in this > country, to > choose to be called by whatever name > pleased them, or by > a name chosen > for them by some Ellis Island clerk > or someone else. > Many Vaclavs > chose the name James. That was a > matter of personal > choice and history. > > > > As a matter of fact and academic sources, > however, Vaclav continues > to > translate to Wenceslaus (as in the Christmas > carol about Good King > > Wenceslaus) in both German and English. > > > > As noted to you by others, John translates to > the Czech "Jan," > > pronounced as the "yon" in yonder (a few degrees of > separation from > > yawn). > > > > Joe > > DeKalb, IL > > > > Mark Allen wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Friends, > >> > >> > >> > >> As Vaclav translates from Bohemian to English as > James what does > >> > >> John in English translate back into Bohemian? > >> > >> > >> > >> Is John considered John in both? Is there a > spelling variation? > >> > >> (i.e. Jon vs. John?) > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks for any help. > >> > >> > >> > >> Mark Zapotocky > >> > >> > >> > >> Researching the Zapotocky and Labruska surnames > in Belleville, IL > >> > >> beginning 1908. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > >> Czech Message Boards are at > >> > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > > > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > > If you'd like to search our archives, please > visit > > > http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CZECH > > > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > All matters pertaining to list administration are > exclusively > handled by the List Administrator. If you have > personal > problems, questions or suggestions about list mail > send an > email to the administrator. The subject is not > appropriate > for list discussion. > > > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list click on > mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe > (list mode) or > mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe > (digest mode) > Contact [email protected] for list related > problems > For the CZECH-L archives, go to > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/czech > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail.