This issue of language and ethnicity seems to come up over and over on this Mail List and it never seems to be resolved. It is like the question "Is James the American version of Vaclav?" Probably the best answer is go search the archives of this list. The term "Bohemian" and the "Bohemian language" seems so deeply rooted in our psyche that we refuse to "let it go" despite good arguments to the contrary. Indeed, why not call this list the "Bohemian Mail List". The reason it is not called the Bohemian List is that it is an inaccurate term to apply to our ancestors if they lived in Bohemia and Moravia. When our great great grandparents went to school, what language do you think they were taught? Can you imagine their teacher using the Czech language or the German language to tell their students to begin their exercises in "Bohemian"? I think that would be absurd! :'( I have pointed out before that immigrants coming to the US (and other countries) for the first time encountered the word "Bohemian" in the English language. It may have been in other languages too, but "Bohemian" is not a word in the Czech language! They encountered that term on American Manifests where it was incorrectly listed as an "Ethnic Group" or "Race of Peoples". There was no such term or choice as "Czech". An immigrant not knowing the English language would certainly be expected to accept a term that was "close enough". Like working for the Government! If you lived in Bohemia, you might be a "Bohemian". <:-| Unfortunately, if you lived in Paris and you were an enlightened freethinker or some other type of social maverick, you would also be called a "Bohemian". The second problem is how languages change. If anyone educated in the US picked up a handwritten text from the "Colonial Period", I would bet they could not read it even though it was written in the best English known at that time. Language and the use of language changes with time. I grew up in Omaha, NE and the only "accent" I knew about was one called "Southern". My cousins from Florida did not speak the same language when they visited. After about a week, I finally figured out what they were saying. "Goin' fer a rod" was taking the bikes out. I was later told that the Midwestern accent (which is spoken in Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, and elsewhere) was the most common one. That made me feel a whole lot better. :-) Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I was forced to move to rural Nebraska. I worked with a fellow born in Aurora, NE and educated at the University of Nebraska who I could barely understand. I thought I had died and moved to Texas! X;{ . Everybody spoke "texan" in rural Nebraska! After 30 years I still cannot get used to it! Anyway, from my very limited point of view (on the high plains of North Texas), I know that languages evolve and they do so very quickly. I was told that at one time by a liguist, the Slavic language of Slovakia and the Slavic language of Greater Moravia and even Bohemia was the same language. I have a strong suspicion that that language (whatever it was called) was over an even broader area than that. Today, the National Language of the Czech Republic is called Czech. For those of us who had families from Bohemia, parts of Silesia, and Moravia; our breathing and living cousins are speaking and writing in Czech and not "Bohemian". However, there are distinct differences. For example, I have taken a personal interest in the the Moravske-Slovako area called the Hornacko: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mlejnek/Hornacko.htm In that region, the customs and the language are not the same as used in Prague. It is not even the same as the one in Brno. It is a rich mixture of Czech and Slovak and some words not known in "Modern Czech". They still use the "w" in their surnames. A young Czech told me I was "full of it" until I sent him a list of surnames from the region. They have to use the "w" because they border on states that use it! In the past these artificial boundaries meant nothing when it came to language and customs. Even though I am still not able to figure out the Czech language (an never will), I at least accept that what means something in one locale may not be the same in another. I accept that the Czech heritage is a very rich and lasting one and I am not leaving the word "bohemian" in any of my children's vocabulary except as person of a free spirit like myself. ron

The list dances around this periodically. What do you call the subjects of the Emperor who came to America in the mid-1800s from the historical region of Bohemia? Is this a true statement? "In the Czech language, there is no distinction between the adjectives Bohemian and Czech (ceský)." http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/bohemia Elaine Education is the jewel casting brilliance into the future. --Mari Evans Hello Ron On Sunday, April 9, 2006, you wrote > This issue of language and ethnicity seems to come up over and over > on this Mail List and it never seems to be > resolved. It is like the > question "Is James the American version of Vaclav?" Probably the > best answer is go search the archives of this list. > The term "Bohemian" and the "Bohemian language" seems so deeply > rooted in our psyche that we refuse to "let it go" despite good > arguments to the contrary. Indeed, why not call this list the > "Bohemian Mail List". The reason it is not > called the Bohemian List > is that it is an inaccurate term to apply to our ancestors if they > lived in Bohemia and Moravia. > When our great great grandparents went to > school, what language do > you think they were taught? Can you imagine > their teacher using the > Czech language or the German language to tell > their students to begin > their exercises in "Bohemian"? I think that would be absurd! :'( > I have pointed out before that immigrants > coming to the US (and other > countries) for the first time encountered the word "Bohemian" in the > English language. It may have been in other languages too, but > "Bohemian" is not a word in the Czech language! They encountered > that term on American Manifests where it was > incorrectly listed as an > "Ethnic Group" or "Race of Peoples". There was no such term or > choice as "Czech". > An immigrant not knowing the English language would certainly be > expected to accept a term that was "close > enough". Like working for > the Government! If you lived in Bohemia, you might be a > "Bohemian". <:-| Unfortunately, if you lived in Paris and you were > an enlightened freethinker or some other type > of social maverick, you > would also be called a "Bohemian". > The second problem is how languages change. If anyone educated in > the US picked up a handwritten text from the "Colonial Period", I > would bet they could not read it even though it was written in the > best English known at that time. Language and the use of language > changes with time. > I grew up in Omaha, NE and the only "accent" I knew about was one > called "Southern". My cousins from Florida did not speak the same > language when they visited. After about a > week, I finally figured > out what they were saying. "Goin' fer a rod" was taking the bikes > out. I was later told that the Midwestern > accent (which is spoken in > Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, and elsewhere) was the most common > one. That made me feel a whole lot better. :-) > Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I was forced > to move to rural Nebraska. I worked with a > fellow born in Aurora, NE > and educated at the University of Nebraska who I could barely > understand. I thought I had died and moved to Texas! X;{ > . Everybody spoke "texan" in rural Nebraska! After 30 years I still > cannot get used to it! > Anyway, from my very limited point of view (on the high plains of > North Texas), I know that languages evolve and they do so very > quickly. I was told that at one time by a liguist, the Slavic > language of Slovakia and the Slavic language of Greater Moravia and > even Bohemia was the same language. I have a strong suspicion that > that language (whatever it was called) was over an even broader area > than that. > Today, the National Language of the Czech Republic is called > Czech. For those of us who had families from Bohemia, parts of > Silesia, and Moravia; our breathing and living cousins are speaking > and writing in Czech and not "Bohemian". > However, there are distinct > differences. For example, I have taken a > personal interest in the > the Moravske-Slovako area called the Hornacko: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mlejnek/Hornacko.htm > In that region, the customs and the language > are not the same as used > in Prague. It is not even the same as the one in Brno. It is a rich > mixture of Czech and Slovak and some words not known in "Modern > Czech". They still use the "w" in their > surnames. A young Czech > told me I was "full of it" until I sent him a list of surnames from > the region. They have to use the "w" because they border on states > that use it! In the past these artificial > boundaries meant nothing > when it came to language and customs. > Even though I am still not able to figure out the Czech language (an > never will), I at least accept that what means something in one > locale may not be the same in another. I accept that the Czech > heritage is a very rich and lasting one and I > am not leaving the word > "bohemian" in any of my children's vocabulary except as person of a > free spirit like myself. > ron