Another for instance. It has been stated by both my dad's immediate family in Indiana and his uncle in Wisconsin's children, that their grandmother spoke only Bohemian. Never said Czech, so is Bohemian just another dialect of the Czech language? Boy am I confusing the issue even MORE or WHAT? HA HA. sorry folks... Ron and Betty Mlejnek wrote: > Everything would be correct when using geographical points of > reference. However, I do not think that Czechs from Bohemia > considered themselves identical to Germans from Bohemia. Ethnically > and linguistically they are different because the had "dreams" in > different languages. A person from Armenia might call himself an > Armenian even if he lived in Prague. :-D > > As for "Czech" meaning "Bohemian" in the Czech language when used as > an adjective, I doubt that statement. I have been told there is no > such word as "Bohemian" in the Czech language. For example, > Böhmisch-Leipa is the same as Ceska Lipa. The first is Anglicized > German and the second is Anglicized Czech. > > In modern Czech, there might be an adoption of the word "Bohemian" as > a colloquial term, just like Webster's dictionary eventually accepts > slang as "proper usage", but in the 1800's I doubt if that term meant > anything to anyone except an American working in the Immigration > Services. > > Of course there is always the dreadful Boehmisch language controversy: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2000-04/0956165740 > > One might want to follow this thread for "relief" that was carried on > by Karen Hobbs, Lavrentiy Krupnak, and Frank Soural who are all people > I highly admire. These Germans from Bohemia are always looking at > things from the German viewpoint, so I see the Boehmisch language as a > German invention. :'( > > ron > > > At 05:22 PM 04/09/2006, you wrote: > >> The list dances around this periodically. What do >> you call the subjects of the Emperor who came to >> America in the mid-1800s from the historical >> region of Bohemia? Is this a true statement? >> >> "In the Czech language, there is no distinction >> between the adjectives Bohemian and Czech >> (ceský)." >> >> http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/bohemia >> >> Elaine >> >> Education is the jewel casting brilliance >> into the future. --Mari Evans >> >> Hello Ron >> >> On Sunday, April 9, 2006, you wrote >> >> > This issue of language and ethnicity seems to come up over and over >> > on this Mail List and it never seems to be >> > resolved. It is like the >> > question "Is James the American version of Vaclav?" Probably the >> > best answer is go search the archives of this list. >> >> > The term "Bohemian" and the "Bohemian language" seems so deeply >> > rooted in our psyche that we refuse to "let it go" despite good >> > arguments to the contrary. Indeed, why not call this list the >> > "Bohemian Mail List". The reason it is not >> > called the Bohemian List >> > is that it is an inaccurate term to apply to our ancestors if they >> > lived in Bohemia and Moravia. >> >> > When our great great grandparents went to >> > school, what language do >> > you think they were taught? Can you imagine >> > their teacher using the >> > Czech language or the German language to tell >> > their students to begin >> > their exercises in "Bohemian"? I think that would be absurd! :'( >> >> > I have pointed out before that immigrants >> > coming to the US (and other >> > countries) for the first time encountered the word "Bohemian" in the >> > English language. It may have been in other languages too, but >> > "Bohemian" is not a word in the Czech language! They encountered >> > that term on American Manifests where it was >> > incorrectly listed as an >> > "Ethnic Group" or "Race of Peoples". There was no such term or >> > choice as "Czech". >> >> > An immigrant not knowing the English language would certainly be >> > expected to accept a term that was "close >> > enough". Like working for >> > the Government! If you lived in Bohemia, you might be a >> > "Bohemian". <:-| Unfortunately, if you lived in Paris and you were >> > an enlightened freethinker or some other type >> > of social maverick, you >> > would also be called a "Bohemian". >> >> > The second problem is how languages change. If anyone educated in >> > the US picked up a handwritten text from the "Colonial Period", I >> > would bet they could not read it even though it was written in the >> > best English known at that time. Language and the use of language >> > changes with time. >> >> > I grew up in Omaha, NE and the only "accent" I knew about was one >> > called "Southern". My cousins from Florida did not speak the same >> > language when they visited. After about a >> > week, I finally figured >> > out what they were saying. "Goin' fer a rod" was taking the bikes >> > out. I was later told that the Midwestern >> > accent (which is spoken in >> > Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, and elsewhere) was the most common >> > one. That made me feel a whole lot better. :-) >> >> > Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I was forced >> > to move to rural Nebraska. I worked with a >> > fellow born in Aurora, NE >> > and educated at the University of Nebraska who I could barely >> > understand. I thought I had died and moved to Texas! X;{ >> > . Everybody spoke "texan" in rural Nebraska! After 30 years I still >> > cannot get used to it! >> >> > Anyway, from my very limited point of view (on the high plains of >> > North Texas), I know that languages evolve and they do so very >> > quickly. I was told that at one time by a liguist, the Slavic >> > language of Slovakia and the Slavic language of Greater Moravia and >> > even Bohemia was the same language. I have a strong suspicion that >> > that language (whatever it was called) was over an even broader area >> > than that. >> >> > Today, the National Language of the Czech Republic is called >> > Czech. For those of us who had families from Bohemia, parts of >> > Silesia, and Moravia; our breathing and living cousins are speaking >> > and writing in Czech and not "Bohemian". >> > However, there are distinct >> > differences. For example, I have taken a >> > personal interest in the >> > the Moravske-Slovako area called the Hornacko: >> >> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mlejnek/Hornacko.htm >> >> > In that region, the customs and the language >> > are not the same as used >> > in Prague. It is not even the same as the one in Brno. It is a rich >> > mixture of Czech and Slovak and some words not known in "Modern >> > Czech". They still use the "w" in their >> > surnames. A young Czech >> > told me I was "full of it" until I sent him a list of surnames from >> > the region. They have to use the "w" because they border on states >> > that use it! In the past these artificial >> > boundaries meant nothing >> > when it came to language and customs. >> >> > Even though I am still not able to figure out the Czech language (an >> > never will), I at least accept that what means something in one >> > locale may not be the same in another. I accept that the Czech >> > heritage is a very rich and lasting one and I >> > am not leaving the word >> > "bohemian" in any of my children's vocabulary except as person of a >> > free spirit like myself. >> >> > ron > > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Czech Message Boards are at > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic > >

This is really interesting. My Grandmother was from what she called Böhmen (Bohemia). She was considered German, and they mostly spoke german. They lived in a area of Böhmen where there where mostly german speaking people. I never heard her call herself a Bohemian. So I always knew that she was German and living in Böhmen. Even though her Mother was Czech by the name of Podrabsky. So it looks like they spoke both German and Czech. And even though she considered herself German, I guess she really was a little of each. Her line I traced, went back to 1704. So after many Generations of Germans and Czech marrying, my Grandmother was born and her Surname was Ritter, not Ritterova, at that time that was not what they did. And when she married, she was a Lawitschka. But she was still considered a German, because around 1944-45 she and the whole family was told if they wanted to live, to get out and fast, with nothing but their clothes on their backs. They did just that , because they didn't want to die just then. So they resettled in Bavaria, at the foot of the Mountains in a tiny little town, where I was born, a German. So I wonder how many Czech are really Czech, I know one isn't or wasn't a Czech, because she was the oldest Daughter of my Grandmother, my Aunt and she married a Czech just about the time of 1944 and lived there until she died. I think, all it came down to, there never where any Bohemians, there where only Germans and Tschekoslowakiens, and they lived in Böhmen.